Atheism versus God

by JP Cusick Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.

That is a one-sided sword which cuts only one way.

It is important to give a general definition of Atheism as like on Wikipedia HERE.

Atheism is a negative concept, as in saying "no" as in no God, no Deity, no conscious higher power, etc.

So just because some one hates Christianity then that is not Atheist, or hating the scary Muslims is not Atheist, as one must reject the presence or the reality of any God by any name or form.

I myself declare the real existence of the "Creator Father God" but to use other names for the "Theo or Thea" is fine with me.

My view is that Atheism is simply a form of self-righteousness, because without the judgements of a God then people get to create our own righteousness, and that appears to be the true motivation for being an Atheist.

Question

by JP Cusick Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:24 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Troll? Surely a troll? Read the line about feeding dogs?? No sane person would write these things in earnest would they?

I figure that I would always be viewed as a troll by someone like your self.

Plus the dog feeding came from a Bible text. FYI.

=================================

snowyflake wrote:
JP wrote:JP Cusick wrote:Your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time, because the righteousness is dependent only on your self.
Right. Whether you believe in a God or not your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time. You are a self-confessed sinner. Which means your word is totally subjective and as you are prone to sinning, I would have great difficulty in accepting your word on anything.

I honestly do not ask you or anyone to believe me - no.

When I tell things then I expect you each and all to use your own mind and your conscience and your own judgement and then believe your self.

When you judge my words as accurate then believe your own judgement.

snowyflake wrote:BTW, I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, or intentionally hurt other people. If I hurt another person, I make amends and apologise to the person (NOTE: Not to God who has nothing to do with it). This is what adults do. Take responsibility. One does not need a god to live a good and moral life.

Then you are far closer to God then you might realize.

Idea

by snowyflake Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:25 pm

Thank you Shirina. for some reason I can't get the quote boxes to show up. I've forgotten! elephant

by snowyflake Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:28 pm

JP wrote:The Atheist is a negative doctrine of no God, but that includes no commandments too.

I think the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a positive doctrine and there is no god mentioned anywhere. And no commandments either. Yet, if we all adhered to that rather than the proselytizing religions, we just might make it as a species.

by snowyflake Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:30 pm

JP, you are missing the whole point. One does not need to believe in a god or have religion to be a good person. That is the point. Atheists are good people. If atheists can be good people what on earth does anyone need god for?

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:30 pm

Well I think we have all posted and told JP that we do not have to believe in god to be good people,and live a moral life. One doubts wether he will accept what we have said as opinion our opinion, or he will probably say we have ganged up on him again as he normally does. Rolling Eyes

by Shirina Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:35 pm

JP Cusick wrote:My view is that Atheism is simply a form of self-righteousness, because without the judgements of a God then people get to create our own righteousness

That's what people do anyway - create their own righteousness.

Some people with the right amount of charisma and skill at oratory manage to become preachers, and they spin the scriptures and doctrines to make it all agree with his personal, self-created righteousness. Thus the congregation is not hearing what God wants, but what a particular preacher wants.

And for others, well, God isn't in the habit of arriving in a flash to discuss with a believer what decisions to make. Again, people use all kinds of tools from prayer to meditation to delude themselves into thinking that a decision they were going to make anyway is stamped, sanctioned, and approved by God.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:37 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Troll? Surely a troll? Read the line about feeding dogs?? No sane person would write these things in earnest would they?
I figure that I would always be viewed as a troll by someone like your self.

Plus the dog feeding came from a Bible text. FYI.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Someone like myself, care to elaborate? At least I answer questions when they're put to me, and don't just roll on and past them making endless unevidenced claims as you do. I occasionally view you as a troll because your posts stray from bizarre into fruitloop territory, as with that nonsense about dogs, and the fact it came from the bible doesn't in any way validate it or make it less bizarre FYI.

=================================

snowyflake wrote:
JP wrote:JP Cusick wrote:Your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time, because the righteousness is dependent only on your self.
Right. Whether you believe in a God or not your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time. You are a self-confessed sinner. Which means your word is totally subjective and as you are prone to sinning, I would have great difficulty in accepting your word on anything.
I honestly do not ask you or anyone to believe me - no.

When I tell things then I expect you each and all to use your own mind and your conscience and your own judgement and then believe your self.

When you judge my words as accurate then believe your own judgement.

snowyflake wrote:BTW, I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, or intentionally hurt other people. If I hurt another person, I make amends and apologise to the person (NOTE: Not to God who has nothing to do with it). This is what adults do. Take responsibility. One does not need a god to live a good and moral life.
Then you are far closer to God then you might realize.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:No she isn't, that's just your subjective opinion, and Mrs S knows that there is zero evidence for the existence of anything metaphysical.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:41 pm

snowyflake wrote:JP, you are missing the whole point. One does not need to believe in a god or have religion to be a good person. That is the point. Atheists are good people. If atheists can be good people what on earth does anyone need god for?

My own opinion is that religion is a crutch or comfort blanket, for people who can't come to terms with the reality of a planet and life that came into existence by chance. They struggle with the reality and want to add stability to their lives which they cannot derive from the rules and laws humans create so they have to pretend that laws have to come from a deity.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:42 pm

snowyflake wrote:
JP wrote:The Atheist is a negative doctrine of no God, but that includes no commandments too.
I think the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a positive doctrine and there is no god mentioned anywhere. And no commandments either. Yet, if we all adhered to that rather than the proselytizing religions, we just might make it as a species.

We just might deserve to make it as a species as well Mrs S.

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:45 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Dan Fante wrote:Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. Therefore if God is in favour of it, it also means he's in favour of people not believing in him.
The reason for that is because people put far too much significance and value onto "belief" when belief is a very low attribute which is worth very little.

It matters what we do and how we act.

So a religious person goes out to lie, cheat, steal, then it would make no difference if they believed everything perfectly.

So too if some Atheist or non-believer does not lie, cheat, steal, then it would make no difference that their believed beliefs are wrong.

Atheist are more accurate then are the religions in viewing that so-called omnipotent God as not being real.

It could easily be argued that what a man/woman does is what he/she believes. He/she may regret his/her belief moments after he/she acted but for the time it took to perform whatever the action was his belief that it was right outweighed his/her belief it was wrong. He/she may indeed vacillate between belief it was right and belief that it was wrong for many years like the smoker who tries to give up smoking between every cigarette for twenty cigarettes every day for fifty years. What he/she believes depends on whether he is smoking a cigarette at that particular moment. What counts is what he did.
==========================================

Heretic wrote:What is it that is burning inside you that you want to tell all of us? Are you the messiah? The second coming of Christ? Tell us what you want to tell us because it seems to me that you are yet to say anything of substance. That is the truth isn't it?

JP Cusick wrote:I really could and would tell much more but it is too hard for me to get past the solid walls of denial and fear that I am up against.

And no, I do not claim to be anyone special, as I am no messiah or 2nd coming of Christ, as I just like discussing about the most important things in life.

One of my commandment is not to give valuable meats unto the dogs, and it is not that the dogs will not devour it all, but that it is wasted by the dogs.

So there it is you're a delusional messiah that thinks that everybody else are dogs not worthy of the scraps from your table of riches. See here is the truth, pause for a moment because it is an important word. Right, have you got that now, the TRUTH is that you are just a $67&*^578^% playing stupid games that has virtually admitted that nobody on the planet believes what he is saying.

Norm Deplume wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:

As such we can have different Countries or even in the same Country where abortion is righteous or it is murder, where homosex is righteous or not, and adultery protected by law or not, and so yes we do have commandments, but Atheist try to pretend neutral when there is no neutrality.
Here you seem to be using "righteous" where I would use "legal". I do not consider the words to be synonyms - the former being more aligned with morality. As an illustration of the difference, slavery was legal but not righteous. Do you agree? If not, how do you define "righteous"?

JP Cusick wrote:You saying that laws and morality are not synonymous really was a distinct part of my point.

Viewing human laws as justice or as justification is full of very real dangers.

And yes I agree = Slavery was legal but not righteous.

All laws need to be morally upright, or else we are morally obliged to defy such laws.

And how should they be resisted, with the gun? or with the ballot box? Is it right to murder a surgeon that performs an abortion to save a life? Whose to say? Who has the right and responsibility to decide? These things are decided through public debate, sometimes over years and sometimes over decades and while each one of thinks we are right none of us has the right to take the law into our own hands and take it away from those millions that have an equal right to our own.

I chose the abortion issue because it is something I feel strongly about. I might wish that no abortions were performed but my way of campaigning is to fight for greater education in schools to a high standard without religious interference. I would also want girls to be taught how to overcome the overtures of their peers to engage in sexual behaviour. This is an overwhelming need in our culture today but not enough people agree with me. I continue to campaign but it is just about changing one heart and one mind at a time.

Heretic

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:47 pm

Shirina wrote:
And for others, well, God isn't in the habit of arriving in a flash to discuss with a believer what decisions to make. Again, people use all kinds of tools from prayer to meditation to delude themselves into thinking that a decision they were going to make anyway is stamped, sanctioned, and approved by God.

Hi Sharina

Not every person that meditates believes in god.

Heretic

by snowyflake Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:59 pm

Hi Heretic

What exactly is meditation? You have mentioned it quite a bit in your posts so I was wondering what is the difference between meditation and say, prayer please?

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:03 pm

Heretic wrote:
Shirina wrote:
And for others, well, God isn't in the habit of arriving in a flash to discuss with a believer what decisions to make. Again, people use all kinds of tools from prayer to meditation to delude themselves into thinking that a decision they were going to make anyway is stamped, sanctioned, and approved by God.
Hi Sharina

Not every person that meditates believes in god.

Heretic

This is absolutely correct, I meditated for years as part of a martial art I used to practice, I was and am an atheist. I still use some of the meditation techniques to help me relax and relieve stress. They're very effective still.

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

snowyflake wrote:Hi Heretic

What exactly is meditation? You have mentioned it quite a bit in your posts so I was wondering what is the difference between meditation and say, prayer please?

The simplest answer to a westerner is that it is a tiny bit like prayer but very different. Can you imagine a prayer that is entirely about listening instead of talking. Is not about reaching out to a god but a reaching deep within ourselves to discover who we really are. If you're interested then pick up a book on it, be careful though because a lot of people tag meditation onto their religion/faith in order to give it legitimacy. A good start might be something by the Dalai Lama. (Oh and don't be in a rush, you'll get there in all good time)

Good Journey

Heretic

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:20 pm

JP, believe me I do use my own judgement, that is how I know your words are so inaccurate, and false and unable to be proved. Just because people do not need god to live a good and moral life as numerous atheists have told you, that does not make us nearer to god I can assure you. A COMMANDMENT that says do not give valuable meat unto the dogs? where in the bible does that come?

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:21 pm

snowyflake wrote:Hi Heretic

What exactly is meditation? You have mentioned it quite a bit in your posts so I was wondering what is the difference between meditation and say, prayer please?

You could start with yoga, the martial arts club I belonged to also had yoga classes. When I use it now, I focus on my breathing unsing that to relax each part of my body in succession, thus emptying my mind of distractions.

In theory anyway....practice makes perfect.

No religion is necessary though, at all....

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:22 pm

stu wrote:JP, believe me I do use my own judgement, that is how I know your words are so inaccurate, and false and unable to be proved. Just because people do not need god to live a good and moral life as numerous atheists have told you, that does not make us nearer to god I can assure you. A COMMANDMENT that says do not give valuable meat unto the dogs? where in the bible does that come?

He seems to think experiential evidence is empirical evidence, and requires no filtering of subjectivism. Bizarre, and scarily ignorant.

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:30 pm

It seems that you and I have used the word ignorant quite a lot when it comes to his posts Sheldon.

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:31 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
Heretic wrote:Hi Sharina

Not every person that meditates believes in god.

Heretic
This is absolutely correct, I meditated for years as part of a martial art I used to practice, I was and am an atheist. I still use some of the meditation techniques to help me relax and relieve stress. They're very effective still.

I've learned meditation as a part of a martial art (Aikido), Iyengar Yoga, with Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and under the supervision of a Benedictine priest. So there are many forms and it is important to recognise that but you are wise if you choose a path early and keep to it until late. It is important to have some guidance early on but to grow out of it later on. I use techniques now that I learned nearly forty years ago to overcome a chronic pain condition [Chronic Pain is defined as pain that hasn't disappeared after six months, mine is still with me after 8 years 6 months and I am told likely to remain with me for life] as the result of an incident where I was thrown 30 yards off a bicycle. Anyway meditation helps me manage my condition even though I still rely heavily on medication. You get philosophic about these things, if it had happened 30 years ago I would of lost an arm, so all is good in the grand scheme of things.

Heretic

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:40 pm

Heretic wrote:
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
Heretic wrote:Hi Sharina

Not every person that meditates believes in god.

Heretic
This is absolutely correct, I meditated for years as part of a martial art I used to practice, I was and am an atheist. I still use some of the meditation techniques to help me relax and relieve stress. They're very effective still.
I've learned meditation as a part of a martial art (Aikido), Iyengar Yoga, with Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and under the supervision of a Benedictine priest. So there are many forms and it is important to recognise that but you are wise if you choose a path early and keep to it until late. It is important to have some guidance early on but to grow out of it later on. I use techniques now that I learned nearly forty years ago to overcome a chronic pain condition [Chronic Pain is defined as pain that hasn't disappeared after six months, mine is still with me after 8 years 6 months and I am told likely to remain with me for life] as the result of an incident where I was thrown 30 yards off a bicycle. Anyway meditation helps me manage my condition even though I still rely heavily on medication. You get philosophic about these things, if it had happened 30 years ago I would of lost an arm, so all is good in the grand scheme of things.

Heretic

That's quite a coincidence as it was Aikido where I learned to meditate, and I first went to Aikido after visiting the yoga class they ran because of chronic back pain, which I have had not for almost 26 years. It is always present but sometimes quite severe and on occasions debilitating. As it has been for the last few days or so, causing me to take time off work. Pain medication is very much a double edged sword, as the more you use them the less efficacious they become. The anti-inflammatory tablets I've learned to use very infrequently and only when absolutely necessary as they have some fairly nasty side effects of their own.

by JP Cusick Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:45 pm

snowyflake wrote:I think the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a positive doctrine and there is no god mentioned anywhere. And no commandments either. Yet, if we all adhered to that rather than the proselytizing religions, we just might make it as a species.

I like the UDHR too, and I am not against the better works of mankind.

There are complications, as like the USA and other Countries which decided to start openly torturing people, as that kind of undermines the whole thing.

So if it turns into a big-Countries enforce the standards onto their smaller "enemy" Countries then it can be so abused.

Also the UN went on to make the "Convention on the Rights of the Child" where the law intends to violate families - but of course the self-righteous authors intend it to be "for our own good".

snowyflake wrote:JP, you are missing the whole point. One does not need to believe in a god or have religion to be a good person. That is the point. Atheists are good people. If atheists can be good people what on earth does anyone need god for?

I really believe that I have been saying this myself, but I will here try to spell that out better.

No one needs God or religion to do right and to act right, but God lives and is real whether anyone needs Him or not.

Atheist can be great people, and I love it when anyone does, but God is still there and active whether anyone knows about God or not.

It is only when a person wants to know more and when one really wants some thing much better then the need appears for God.

Any person can live a long happy loving productive life without ever knowing about the real God, or they can live a miserable rotten life without ever knowing about God, but it is only our own loss, as the God thing is there anyway whether we recognize it or not.

===================================================

Heretic wrote:
I chose the abortion issue because it is something I feel strongly about. I might wish that no abortions were performed but my way of campaigning is to fight for greater education in schools to a high standard without religious interference. I would also want girls to be taught how to overcome the overtures of their peers to engage in sexual behaviour. This is an overwhelming need in our culture today but not enough people agree with me. I continue to campaign but it is just about changing one heart and one mind at a time.

I have problems with that issue myself, as like the young parents (fathers and mothers) are often condemned if they do get an abortion, but punished if they keep the baby.

An interesting thing about abortions is that it is equivalent to the old days of sacrificing (killing) the babies as a sin offering.

Today it is done less messy and less drama but the point and purpose is the same as of old.

The baby (or fetus) is viewed as a "sin" or call it as a mistake or an accident or whatever, and by killing the baby (getting the abortion) then that is paying a blood price for the parents' sinning, and killing the baby is intended to create a much happier future.

Me telling this does not mean that I am trying to justify any of it, but when we understand that the ancient process of sacrificing babies as a sin offering is completely the same action as done in abortions today - then it becomes easier to understand that human factor.

As to the thread subject, Atheist try to claim there is no God but then they do the exact same thing but just a prettier process.

To kill babies in service to themselves or to society or to some God - still the baby gets sacrificed.

Like a Star @ heaven

by JP Cusick Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:53 pm

stu wrote: A COMMANDMENT that says do not give valuable meat unto the dogs? where in the bible does that come?

You can see it here in Matthew 7:6

=====================================

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:He seems to think experiential evidence is empirical evidence, and requires no filtering of subjectivism. Bizarre, and scarily ignorant.

Ha ha ha .....

At least this time I have the dictionary on my side.

cheers

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:57 pm

JP Cusick wrote:An interesting thing about abortions is that it is equivalent to the old days of sacrificing (killing) the babies as a sin offering.

Today it is done less messy and less drama but the point and purpose is the same as of old.

The baby (or fetus) is viewed as a "sin" or call it as a mistake or an accident or whatever, and by killing the baby (getting the abortion) then that is paying a blood price for the parents' sinning, and killing the baby is intended to create a much happier future.

Me telling this does not mean that I am trying to justify any of it, but when we understand that the ancient process of sacrificing babies as a sin offering is completely the same action as done in abortions today - then it becomes easier to understand that human factor.

As to the thread subject, Atheist try to claim there is no God but then they do the exact same thing but just a prettier process.

To kill babies in service to themselves or to society or to some God - still the baby gets sacrificed.

You really are a piece of work aren't you. I really wish I could send in the 'padded van' because even someone with an imagination like yours deserves to be committed. I have only really bothered looking closely to what you post today and the absolute ^^%$$%^&%& that you come out with. How you have the audacity to come back in here day after day and post stuff that could only come out of the mind of a sick adolescent.

You really do need help.

Heretic

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:01 pm

Sounds very interesting Heretic, do you think that is where your philosophical side comes from too.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:06 pm

JP Cusick wrote:It is only when a person wants to know more and when one really wants some thing much better then the need appears for God.

Brilliant, the entire scientific world just burst an appendix laughing....

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:09 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
stu wrote: A COMMANDMENT that says do not give valuable meat unto the dogs? where in the bible does that come?
You can see it here in Matthew 7:6

=====================================

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:He seems to think experiential evidence is empirical evidence, and requires no filtering of subjectivism. Bizarre, and scarily ignorant.
Ha ha ha .....

At least this time I have the dictionary on my side.

If only you could understand that words have nuanced meanings in different context the laughter you're hearing would be yours, and not the collective laughter of every other poster as they point at you and read your spuriously simplistic interpretations of something you clearly are entirely ignorant of, scientific empiricism doesn't equate to attaching asubjective interpretations onto what you believe you've seen ....as I said earlier and you ignored, I guess you leave every tawdry magic show accepting humans can literally perform magic.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:19 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
snowyflake wrote:I think the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a positive doctrine and there is no god mentioned anywhere. And no commandments either. Yet, if we all adhered to that rather than the proselytizing religions, we just might make it as a species.
I like the UDHR too, and I am not against the better works of mankind.

There are complications, as like the USA and other Countries which decided to start openly torturing people, as that kind of undermines the whole thing.

So if it turns into a big-Countries enforce the standards onto their smaller "enemy" Countries then it can be so abused.

Also the UN went on to make the "Convention on the Rights of the Child" where the law intends to violate families - but of course the self-righteous authors intend it to be "for our own good".

snowyflake wrote:JP, you are missing the whole point. One does not need to believe in a god or have religion to be a good person. That is the point. Atheists are good people. If atheists can be good people what on earth does anyone need god for?
I really believe that I have been saying this myself, but I will here try to spell that out better.

No one needs God or religion to do right and to act right, but God lives and is real whether anyone needs Him or not.

Atheist can be great people, and I love it when anyone does, but God is still there and active whether anyone knows about God or not.

It is only when a person wants to know more and when one really wants some thing much better then the need appears for God.

Any person can live a long happy loving productive life without ever knowing about the real God, or they can live a miserable rotten life without ever knowing about God, but it is only our own loss, as the God thing is there anyway whether we recognize it or not.

===================================================

Heretic wrote:
I chose the abortion issue because it is something I feel strongly about. I might wish that no abortions were performed but my way of campaigning is to fight for greater education in schools to a high standard without religious interference. I would also want girls to be taught how to overcome the overtures of their peers to engage in sexual behaviour. This is an overwhelming need in our culture today but not enough people agree with me. I continue to campaign but it is just about changing one heart and one mind at a time.
I have problems with that issue myself, as like the young parents (fathers and mothers) are often condemned if they do get an abortion, but punished if they keep the baby.

An interesting thing about abortions is that it is equivalent to the old days of sacrificing (killing) the babies as a sin offering.

Today it is done less messy and less drama but the point and purpose is the same as of old.

The baby (or fetus) is viewed as a "sin" or call it as a mistake or an accident or whatever, and by killing the baby (getting the abortion) then that is paying a blood price for the parents' sinning, and killing the baby is intended to create a much happier future.

Me telling this does not mean that I am trying to justify any of it, but when we understand that the ancient process of sacrificing babies as a sin offering is completely the same action as done in abortions today - then it becomes easier to understand that human factor.

As to the thread subject, Atheist try to claim there is no God but then they do the exact same thing but just a prettier process.

To kill babies in service to themselves or to society or to some God - still the baby gets sacrificed.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:It's not a baby, it's not murder, getting pregnant is never a sin, and you're talking the most unadulterated nonsense.

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:20 pm

Hi Heretic, no time for jokes tonight is there my friend. I can tell very much so that you are in a serious mood tonight, especially whilst engaged in the topic of conversation you are at the moment. Whilst I agree with the anti-abortion, one exception I do agree with and that is if it puts the mothers life in danger.

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:44 pm

stu wrote:Sounds very interesting Heretic, do you think that is where your philosophical side comes from too.

I suppose that two strands came together, I had an interest in Christian Mysticism while studying computer programming. A strange mix but they both changed the way I think.

Heretic

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:47 pm

stu wrote:Hi Heretic, no time for jokes tonight is there my friend. I can tell very much so that you are in a serious mood tonight, especially whilst engaged in the topic of conversation you are at the moment. Whilst I agree with the anti-abortion, one exception I do agree with and that is if it puts the mothers life in danger.

It's been a heavy day, actually trying to synthesise where JP is coming from and the answer is not for polite company and I think I told him so once or twice. Idiots try my patience sometimes. At least I could put Spin on ignore.

Heretic

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:56 pm

Do you think that without any teaching Heretic, a person can almost teach thereselves medication? as because I live on my own I spend lots of time in peace and tranquility. I then just try to empty my mind, funnily enough I find that I have dropped off to sleep totally relaxed.

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:09 pm

stu wrote:Do you think that without any teaching Heretic, a person can almost teach thereselves medication? as because I live on my own I spend lots of time in peace and tranquility. I then just try to empty my mind, funnily enough I find that I have dropped off to sleep totally relaxed.

If sleep were that easy. I take 16 tablets to get to sleep.

Meditation is easy, that's the problem, people try too hard to meditate. When you stop thinking about meditation, when you stop trying to meditate, when you stop studying meditation, then you are meditating. I know it sounds like a bit like a puzzle and it is sort of but when you live entirely in the moment, if you're washing dishes then do it entirely with your whole being concentrated on that one thing, the same when you are walking or even laughing entirely do it with all that you are and you will be meditating.

Heretic

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:24 pm

Thanks Heretic,I THINK i HAVE got there on meditation then, as I can relax my brain during the day.

by JP Cusick Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:32 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote: empirical ... empirical ... empirical ...

I just wish that you were some place where I could throw a dictionary at you.

Ha ha ha ......... bounce

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:37 pm

JP, SHOW EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THEN.

by Heretic Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:41 pm

stu wrote:JP, SHOW EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THEN.

Any kind of evidence for anything would be better than what he shown so far.

Heretic

by stuart torr Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:46 pm

Very true.

by snowyflake Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:09 pm

jp wrote:No one needs God or religion to do right and to act right, but God lives and is real whether anyone needs Him or not.

'God lives' is a statement of fact. In order for that fact to be true, you need to present evidence that shows that God lives. You cannot do this, so you need to preface your comments with 'I believe God lives', 'I believe God is real whether anyone needs him or not'. Those are statements I can accept. I cannot accept statements like 'God lives' any more than I can accept statements like 'The Flying Spaghetti Monster' lives.

jp wrote:Atheist can be great people, and I love it when anyone does, but God is still there and active whether anyone knows about God or not.

Again, see above. One cannot make statements of fact in relation to God. You can only ever say 'I believe....'

jp wrote:It is only when a person wants to know more and when one really wants some thing much better then the need appears for God.

If you need god, then you are a dependent. You are not a grown up adult who takes responsibility for their own life, actions, inactions, goals and outcomes. Wanting to know more about life? Take some science courses. You would be amazed at what you would learn about the world and the universe. You would learn how to reason and you would understand that god has nothing to do with anything anymore than any other fictional character in a story has anything to do with this world.

jp wrote:Any person can live a long happy loving productive life without ever knowing about the real God, or they can live a miserable rotten life without ever knowing about God, but it is only our own loss, as the God thing is there anyway whether we recognize it or not.

That is a statement of belief. It is not fact. I have never witnessed any action that could be construed as from God. As a Christian, God and Jesus were silent to me. God and Jesus are silent to me as an atheist as well. It seemed, to me anyway, that God and Jesus are not that bothered one way or the other whether I believe in them or not. Conclusion: They probably don't exist since they didn't figure in my life when I was a Christian and they don't figure in my life as an atheist. They are figments of human imagination, no different to any of the other gods man has invented.

by Kazza Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:25 pm

Heretic wrote:
snowyflake wrote:Hi Heretic

What exactly is meditation? You have mentioned it quite a bit in your posts so I was wondering what is the difference between meditation and say, prayer please?
The simplest answer to a westerner is that it is a tiny bit like prayer but very different. Can you imagine a prayer that is entirely about listening instead of talking. Is not about reaching out to a god but a reaching deep within ourselves to discover who we really are. If you're interested then pick up a book on it, be careful though because a lot of people tag meditation onto their religion/faith in order to give it legitimacy. A good start might be something by the Dalai Lama. (Oh and don't be in a rush, you'll get there in all good time)

Good Journey

Heretic

The best book I've read on meditation is called 'Wherever you go, there you are', but I can't remember the name of the author. A simple guide on how to be peaceful, and it works if you work at it.

by Kazza Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:27 pm

Jon-Kabat Zinn. Just looked it up.

by JP Cusick Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:45 pm

snowyflake wrote:
jp wrote:No one needs God or religion to do right and to act right, but God lives and is real whether anyone needs Him or not.
'God lives' is a statement of fact. In order for that fact to be true, you need to present evidence that shows that God lives. You cannot do this, so you need to preface your comments with 'I believe God lives', 'I believe God is real whether anyone needs him or not'. Those are statements I can accept. I cannot accept statements like 'God lives' any more than I can accept statements like 'The Flying Spaghetti Monster' lives.

No, I stand by what I said as still being accurate and true.

I have given evidence in other threads and fortunately I can do it again here.

Some evidence is that we can experience ghost and demons as real, and we can find real info from a higher power inside of world religious scriptures, anyone can with sincere effort can communicate with the God, things like the "Big-Bang" is factual evidence of a real creation day (or creation event), and certain prophesies are evidence / proof of a real God, and there is much more evidence.

Just because you or Atheist deny the very evidence in front of their own face does not mean that there is no evidence - just means that there are disingenuous denials.

snowyflake wrote:
jp wrote:Atheist can be great people, and I love it when anyone does, but God is still there and active whether anyone knows about God or not.
Again, see above. One cannot make statements of fact in relation to God. You can only ever say 'I believe....'

I simply do not share your weakness.

And I must confess that I find all Atheism to be based on a weakness, because you can not have any of the best faith.

snowyflake wrote:
jp wrote:It is only when a person wants to know more and when one really wants some thing much better then the need appears for God.
If you need god, then you are a dependent. You are not a grown up adult who takes responsibility for their own life, actions, inactions, goals and outcomes.

You do not understand, that that kind of dependence is a super strength.

The fact is that all people are in need of that dependence onto God, and only the very strong can truly carry that load.

snowyflake wrote:Wanting to know more about life? Take some science courses. You would be amazed at what you would learn about the world and the universe. You would learn how to reason and you would understand that god has nothing to do with anything anymore than any other fictional character in a story has anything to do with this world.

I do read and study science but I do not want to become indoctrinated by a class.

The parallel universe theory is very believable to me, and I see it as explaining a lot about the thing we so inaccurately call as God.

snowyflake wrote:
jp wrote:Any person can live a long happy loving productive life without ever knowing about the real God, or they can live a miserable rotten life without ever knowing about God, but it is only our own loss, as the God thing is there anyway whether we recognize it or not.
That is a statement of belief. It is not fact. I have never witnessed any action that could be construed as from God.

I would just say that is because you are blind to it, but I doubt that you ever really looked.

My own finding is that God is so involved in everything that it is super hard not to see Him.

The trick to it is that in order to see God then we simply have to start looking in the places where we really do not want to see.

snowyflake wrote:As a Christian, God and Jesus were silent to me. God and Jesus are silent to me as an atheist as well. It seemed, to me anyway, that God and Jesus are not that bothered one way or the other whether I believe in them or not. Conclusion: They probably don't exist since they didn't figure in my life when I was a Christian and they don't figure in my life as an atheist. They are figments of human imagination, no different to any of the other gods man has invented.

Lots of people are fooled by Christianity, by expecting to find Christ in Christianity, and that is simply looking in the wrong place.

We have to approach God alone, just as we are born alone and die alone, we really have to live alone, and it is a contradiction but we can have lots of people all around and yet still be alone. As like being born alone while lots of other people are there, and to die alone even with your closest loved ones all around, so too with God, as many people are all around and yet we must do it alone.

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