Apostrophes – do they matter?
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Penderyn
moonbeam
Phil Hornby
boatlady
Shirina
oftenwrong
buckspygmy
Ivan
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Apostrophes – do they matter?
First topic message reminder :
I remember taking exams at school and invariably at the top of every question paper it would say: “Credit will be given for good English and the orderly presentation of material. Candidates who neglect these essentials will be penalised.” I used to think that was a strange thing to put on papers for subjects other than English.
The owners of this site have requested that we avoid SMS language and spelling mistakes (although they haven’t provided a spell check facility), and we have provided some tips, including use of the apostrophe, here:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t391-posting-tips
The matter of apostrophes came into my mind when I read that Cambridge City Council has banned punctuation from new street names. Officers said they were following national guidance which warned apostrophes could lead to mistakes, particularly for emergency services. It’s not the first time this has happened, they were banned in Birmingham back in 2009.
This has infuriated the Good Grammar Company, whose spokesperson said: “Dropping apostrophes is pandering to the lowest denominator and while eradicating them anywhere is dreadful, it is particularly bad to do it in Cambridge, a city renowned for learning.”
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News/Apostrophe-catastrophe-as-Cambridge-City-Council-bans-punctuation-from-new-street-names-20140117060000.htm
You live and learn, and I’ve now discovered that there exists the Apostrophe Protection Society. It was founded in 2001 by John Richards, a retired sub-editor, in response to his observations of widespread incorrect use of the apostrophe. The society reminds us of the basic rules:-
- Plurals don’t have apostrophes.
- Apostrophes signify possession, unless you are using the word ‘it’.
- Apostrophes are used for contractions.
http://www.redmolotov.com/blog/an-important-lesson-from-the-apostrophe-protection-society/
Even if we consider that good English matters in examinations, does it matter the rest of the time? After all, isn’t the primary purpose of language that it should be a means of communication, so that we can understand each other? As long as we know what someone is trying to say when they write something, does it matter if, for example, apostrophes are put in the wrong places or aren’t used at all? Do you take less notice of what another poster has to say if it is not well expressed? Or is all this just for geeks and grammar fascists?
I remember taking exams at school and invariably at the top of every question paper it would say: “Credit will be given for good English and the orderly presentation of material. Candidates who neglect these essentials will be penalised.” I used to think that was a strange thing to put on papers for subjects other than English.
The owners of this site have requested that we avoid SMS language and spelling mistakes (although they haven’t provided a spell check facility), and we have provided some tips, including use of the apostrophe, here:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t391-posting-tips
The matter of apostrophes came into my mind when I read that Cambridge City Council has banned punctuation from new street names. Officers said they were following national guidance which warned apostrophes could lead to mistakes, particularly for emergency services. It’s not the first time this has happened, they were banned in Birmingham back in 2009.
This has infuriated the Good Grammar Company, whose spokesperson said: “Dropping apostrophes is pandering to the lowest denominator and while eradicating them anywhere is dreadful, it is particularly bad to do it in Cambridge, a city renowned for learning.”
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News/Apostrophe-catastrophe-as-Cambridge-City-Council-bans-punctuation-from-new-street-names-20140117060000.htm
You live and learn, and I’ve now discovered that there exists the Apostrophe Protection Society. It was founded in 2001 by John Richards, a retired sub-editor, in response to his observations of widespread incorrect use of the apostrophe. The society reminds us of the basic rules:-
- Plurals don’t have apostrophes.
- Apostrophes signify possession, unless you are using the word ‘it’.
- Apostrophes are used for contractions.
http://www.redmolotov.com/blog/an-important-lesson-from-the-apostrophe-protection-society/
Even if we consider that good English matters in examinations, does it matter the rest of the time? After all, isn’t the primary purpose of language that it should be a means of communication, so that we can understand each other? As long as we know what someone is trying to say when they write something, does it matter if, for example, apostrophes are put in the wrong places or aren’t used at all? Do you take less notice of what another poster has to say if it is not well expressed? Or is all this just for geeks and grammar fascists?
Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
would that I had been allowed to make good the error of my waysoftenwrong wrote:and possibly ... Modern English Grammar
Foxcliffe- Posts : 39
Join date : 2015-06-10
Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
I've owned a Thesaurus for more years than I care to remember, but I've never really worked out how to use it! Is it anything like a dictionary, when you need to have some idea of how to spell a word before you can look up how to spell it (and what it means, of course!)?
In many situations, what you write is likely to be taken more seriously if it is fluent and well expressed. In others – such as an internet discussion forum like this – good grammar and spelling aren’t crucial (as long as your message can be understood), but taking some care over what you post shows a degree of respect for your readers.
Errors obviously fall into two main categories:-
Typos – most of which could be eliminated if the poster would only take the trouble to read the message before sending it. A message was posted on another thread this morning where ‘bit’ was typed, presumably instead of ‘not’ (since ‘b’ is next to ‘n’ on the keyboard, and ‘i’ is next to ‘o’. Messages can be edited for up to 60 minutes after posting. We had to introduce that restriction after two members threw their toys out of the pram and started editing away all of their messages, making a nonsense of many of the threads. (Incidentally, if there are no new posts on the thread after the message you wish to edit, there is no need to fill in the ‘reason for editing’ box.)
Ignorance – not knowing that you’re making a mistake, not being aware that the word ‘their’ (meaning belonging to them) exists, or that the plural of Tory is Tories (not Tory’s). ‘Your’ and ‘you’re’ are often misused, and then there is ‘must of’ being written instead of ‘must have’, which is a reflection of the way some people speak. I’d like to point out these mistakes to the members who make them, but isn’t it too personal and likely to make them feel angry or humiliated, or both?
Now, I'd better read this through before I send it......
In many situations, what you write is likely to be taken more seriously if it is fluent and well expressed. In others – such as an internet discussion forum like this – good grammar and spelling aren’t crucial (as long as your message can be understood), but taking some care over what you post shows a degree of respect for your readers.
Errors obviously fall into two main categories:-
Typos – most of which could be eliminated if the poster would only take the trouble to read the message before sending it. A message was posted on another thread this morning where ‘bit’ was typed, presumably instead of ‘not’ (since ‘b’ is next to ‘n’ on the keyboard, and ‘i’ is next to ‘o’. Messages can be edited for up to 60 minutes after posting. We had to introduce that restriction after two members threw their toys out of the pram and started editing away all of their messages, making a nonsense of many of the threads. (Incidentally, if there are no new posts on the thread after the message you wish to edit, there is no need to fill in the ‘reason for editing’ box.)
Ignorance – not knowing that you’re making a mistake, not being aware that the word ‘their’ (meaning belonging to them) exists, or that the plural of Tory is Tories (not Tory’s). ‘Your’ and ‘you’re’ are often misused, and then there is ‘must of’ being written instead of ‘must have’, which is a reflection of the way some people speak. I’d like to point out these mistakes to the members who make them, but isn’t it too personal and likely to make them feel angry or humiliated, or both?
Now, I'd better read this through before I send it......
Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Sorry Ivan, I was toying with oftenwrong after having a grammatical error I had made pointed out but at the same time carrying on with a previous discussion we had about 'Flood control', wherein I had moaned about being unable to edit said glaring mistake - in advance of discovering your comment about changing the forum settings to prevent retrospective editing. Timing is not my forte
Unfortunately I fear you are correct in the majority of cases. Personally I don't mind and have already stated so but most would take it as a criticism and none of us, understandably, like to be criticised.
Ivan wrote:isn’t it too personal and likely to make them feel angry or humiliated, or both?
Unfortunately I fear you are correct in the majority of cases. Personally I don't mind and have already stated so but most would take it as a criticism and none of us, understandably, like to be criticised.
Foxcliffe- Posts : 39
Join date : 2015-06-10
Location : UK
Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
" none of us, understandably, like to be criticised"
On the subject of errors, isn't it ' none of us.... likes to be criticised', given that 'none' is a contraction of no-one' - ie not one person ?
On the subject of errors, isn't it ' none of us.... likes to be criticised', given that 'none' is a contraction of no-one' - ie not one person ?
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Ooh you old pedant
boatlady- Former Moderator
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Probberly - it's just wot I does...
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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boatlady- Former Moderator
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Too late came the cry!!! Sorry, all editing rights have been revoked. You'll just have to make the best of itPhil Hornby wrote:.... likes to be criticised'
EDIT but, actually, I stand by my original in that not one of us like that at all
Foxcliffe- Posts : 39
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
I already had...!
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Well there's a blessing
Foxcliffe- Posts : 39
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Blessings are just a tool of the trade...
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
And your trade would be pointing? Now there's a blessing, I could really do with my chimney being done right now. You just would not believe the state it is in
Foxcliffe- Posts : 39
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
None of us might like to be accused of pedantry, but consider if you will that sometimes none logically requires a plural:
None of the women here meet after work.
It takes at least two to meet, surely?
In my opening sentence the inclusion of "might" renders "likes" ungrammatical.
Does it not? (as one of our regulars is wont to add).
None of the women here meet after work.
It takes at least two to meet, surely?
In my opening sentence the inclusion of "might" renders "likes" ungrammatical.
Does it not? (as one of our regulars is wont to add).
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
I would suggest - if 'none' is accepted as meaning 'not one' -that , in the example used, it implies that not one of the women meets another ( or others) after work.
Interesting though...
Interesting though...
Last edited by Phil Hornby on Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
" ...You just would not believe the state it is in "
I just might...
I just might...
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
You live and learn, and I’ve now discovered that there exists the Apostrophe Protection Society. It was founded in 2001 by John Richards, a retired sub-editor, in response to his observations of widespread incorrect use of the apostrophe. The society reminds us of the basic rules:-
- Plurals don’t have apostrophes.
- Apostrophes signify possession, unless you are using the word ‘it’.
- Apostrophes are used for contractions.
After having seven kids, my wife remembers having many apostrophes.
- Plurals don’t have apostrophes.
- Apostrophes signify possession, unless you are using the word ‘it’.
- Apostrophes are used for contractions.
After having seven kids, my wife remembers having many apostrophes.
bobby- Posts : 1939
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
I bet she does!!
boatlady- Former Moderator
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
If only more people who post on-line could get that close to accuracy...
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
But before it gets technical -
Rule 11
The plurals for capital letters and numbers used as nouns are not formed with
apostrophes.
Examples:
She consulted with three M.D.s.
BUT
She went to three M.D.s' offices.
The apostrophe is needed here to show plural possessive.
She learned her ABCs.
the 1990s not the 1990's
the '90s or the mid-'70s not the '90's or the mid-'70's
She learned her times tables for 6s and 7s.
Exception:
Use apostrophes with capital letters and numbers when the meaning would be
unclear otherwise.
Examples:
Please dot your i's.
You don't mean is.
Ted couldn't distinguish between his 6's and 0's.
You need to use the apostrophe to indicate the plural of zero or it will look
like the word Os. To be consistent within a sentence, you would also use the
apostrophe to indicate the plural of 6's.
Rule 11
The plurals for capital letters and numbers used as nouns are not formed with
apostrophes.
Examples:
She consulted with three M.D.s.
BUT
She went to three M.D.s' offices.
The apostrophe is needed here to show plural possessive.
She learned her ABCs.
the 1990s not the 1990's
the '90s or the mid-'70s not the '90's or the mid-'70's
She learned her times tables for 6s and 7s.
Exception:
Use apostrophes with capital letters and numbers when the meaning would be
unclear otherwise.
Examples:
Please dot your i's.
You don't mean is.
Ted couldn't distinguish between his 6's and 0's.
You need to use the apostrophe to indicate the plural of zero or it will look
like the word Os. To be consistent within a sentence, you would also use the
apostrophe to indicate the plural of 6's.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Not forgetting :
The man who invented predictive text has died.
I bet you didn't even know he was i'll...
The man who invented predictive text has died.
I bet you didn't even know he was i'll...
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Can We Stop the Apostrophe Madness?
by Terri Herman-Ponce:-
https://terriponce.com/2016/10/23/can-we-stop-the-apostrophe-madness/
by Terri Herman-Ponce:-
https://terriponce.com/2016/10/23/can-we-stop-the-apostrophe-madness/
Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Nicely explained - it's not rocket science, and you'd think people would learn this stuff in school
boatlady- Former Moderator
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Remembered from childhood (and cannot now be unlearned):
U U U U U U U U U U U s
your I I I I I I I I I I I s
if U B
Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y s
Sorry!
U U U U U U U U U U U s
your I I I I I I I I I I I s
if U B
Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y s
Sorry!
oftenwrong- Sage
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boatlady- Former Moderator
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
These beacons of wisdom clearly didn't......you'd think people would learn this stuff in school
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyvHYH9WEAAR2gj.jpg
Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
I begin to think education in this country has failed over the last 40 years or so - no-one seems to have any respect for the language any more; no-one seems to understand anything about history or the natural world or geography
boatlady- Former Moderator
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
If that lot aren't ashamed to be holding that banner, they are even more thick, stupid and bone-headed than I thought...
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
They look rather proud, if anything - a definite air of gravitas
boatlady- Former Moderator
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
The most appallingly bloody B-Movie ever must be "You're next" which you may enjoy if thrilled by the plunging of a dagger into a man's eye. (etcetera).
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/youre_next_2011/
But the wording scrawled in blood is always correctly punctuated.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/youre_next_2011/
But the wording scrawled in blood is always correctly punctuated.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
There appear to be folk willing to admonish anyone who points out their errors of punctuation etc. as 'grammar Nazis' ( or in one recent case I noted, 'grammer Nazis' !).
How odd that such people are willing to make a public show not only of how dim they are, but also their unashamed tolerance of being wrong...
How odd that such people are willing to make a public show not only of how dim they are, but also their unashamed tolerance of being wrong...
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
....and finally, in 2016
A Happy New Year to Grammar Pedants everywhere:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-top-10-adjectives-that-come-after-the-noun-a7497521.html
A Happy New Year to Grammar Pedants everywhere:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-top-10-adjectives-that-come-after-the-noun-a7497521.html
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
HNY, ow.
It's good to see that some folk are still interested in grammar like wot it should be wrote...
It's good to see that some folk are still interested in grammar like wot it should be wrote...
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
A surprising number of folk, it seems
¡Próspero Año Nuevo á todos!
¡Próspero Año Nuevo á todos!
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
That was an unpresidented message (don't even know how he managed it - spellcheck insisted on changing to the correct spelling and I had to be very firm)
boatlady- Former Moderator
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
All bases covered now, Boss!
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Left hand; right hand.
But surely not in Bournemouth...?!
But surely not in Bournemouth...?!
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
Q: What do you say when you are comforting a grammar nazi?
A: There, Their, They're.
A: There, Their, They're.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Apostrophes – do they matter?
"Let's eat grandma!" ....sorry, make that : "Let's eat, grandma..."
(lileks.com)
Sorry, I thought you said a 'grandma nazi....'
(lileks.com)
Sorry, I thought you said a 'grandma nazi....'
Phil Hornby- Blogger
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