Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

by **Ivan** Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Just to prove what a liar I am, always “making things up as I go along”, I’ll add three more sources to the discussion, but no doubt that won’t convince the pig-headed amongst us:-

“The Beveridge Report proposed an allowance of eight shillings per week for all children (apart from for a family's first child if one parent was working), which graduated according to age. It was to be non-contributory and funded by general taxation. After some debate, the Family Allowances Bill was enacted in June 1945. The act provided for a flat rate payment funded directly from taxation. The recommended nine shillings a week was reduced to five shillings, and family allowance became a subsidy, rather than a subsistence payment as Beveridge had envisaged.”

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/themes/beveridge-report-child-benefit.htm

“Known as the Family Allowance, the 5 shillings a week payment was given to parents only for their second AND subsequent children, thus helping shore up the depleted population by encouraging more births. It continued through the post-war boom but was restructured when the economy turned down again, being reinvented as Child Benefit in the second half of the 1970s. The new payments were tax free and first-time mothers also became eligible.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8041636/Child-Benefit-history.html

“In the UK, child benefit is administered by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). The system was first implemented in August 1946 as ‘family allowances’ under the Family Allowances Act 1945, at a rate of 5s (= £0.25) per week per child in a family, except for the eldest. This was raised from September 1952, by the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1952, to 8s (= £0.40), and from October 1956, by the Family Allowances Act and National Insurance Act 1956, to 8s for the second child with 10s (= £0.50) for the third and subsequent children.

It was modified in 1977, with the payments being termed ‘child benefit’ and given for the eldest child as well as the younger ones; by 1979 it was worth £4 per child per week. In 1991, the system was further altered, with a higher payment now given for the first child than for their younger siblings.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

by **Phil Hornby** Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:09 pm

One supposes that the 'plastic bag' was taken into the tree by a large gust of unwelcome wind - which, coincidentally, also usefully describes Mr Bailey...

by Redflag Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:45 am

Just to let you all know there is two more being asked questions about there expenses claims Peter Bone Tory MP and in last nights Sky News 24 paper review David Mercer Tory MP is another one being looked at so by the time the HOC comes back from its Easter break Westminster will be awash with more Tory scandals. In the same paper review there seems to be unrest in the Fib-Dem camp one of the senior members is saying they have to get rid of Clegg otherwise the party will be ANNIHILATED at the next election, so they have been listening to what L/D voters have been saying.

by bobby Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:41 pm

It now appears that Ed Miliband is purchasing the services of a certain Mr David Axelrod. This man was in part responsible for Barak Obama's last election campaign, which as we all know he won.
What I question is, why is there a need for such a man to assist Ed Miliband in winning Next Years Election.
We have 4 full years of evidence which can be held against the Tory led Coalition, and a Labour party led by Ed Miliband which in the main has sat on their arses letting the Coalition get away scot free with each and every stroke they have pulled. What makes Ed Miliband think that the American Davis Axelrod can blast a way through the Tory Friendly media, when he has failed.
All too little and a bit too late IMHO, then what do I know?

by oftenwrong Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:59 pm

Whatever it may be, there needs to be a counterbalance to the continuous drip-feed of Tory propaganda in the national press, which is clearly influencing national polls of public opinion.

by **Ivan** Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:39 pm

oftenwrong wrote:-
……there needs to be a counterbalance to the continuous drip-feed of Tory propaganda in the national press

And on the BBC, where we are treated to negative stories about the NHS on an almost daily basis (two stories yesterday) to soften us up for its privatisation.

Yes, I think David Axelrod has been appointed to counterbalance Lynton Crosby. Axelrod masterminded two election victories for Barack Obama, and in the second one concentrated on the living standards of ordinary people, a theme which Ed Miliband has adopted. George Eaton says that Axelrod’s decision to take on the role “is a big vote of confidence in Labour; strategists as renowned as Axelrod don't want to be associated with defeated parties".

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/labour-hires-david-axelrod-senior-strategic-adviser

by Redflag Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:42 am

I hope you are right Ivan and that Bobby is wrong about the Labour party winning the next G.E. in 2015, if the Tories win or go into coalition with another party our NHS will be gone and the health Insurance SHARKS will be circling ready to pounce.

What do you think of David Axelrod Ivan do you think he can erase some of the nasty Tory LIES about the Labour party ? Will he be able to get some of the TV channels & media on side of the Labour party and give Davy boy a taste of his own medicine.

by boatlady Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:10 pm

I guess we all know what the message needs to be - maybe Mr Axelrod will have some ideas about how to get it out there in the face of hostile media and government spin.

There's still far too many people out there that feel this government is OK for my liking

by Redflag Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:52 am

I agree boatlady but what we have to work out is is there more of the people that Davy boy has hurt with his cuts, or is there more of the Idiots you talk about in your post boatlady.

Surely these people watch the news and see the clergy coming out and telling Davy boy his cuts are the reason hardworking people have to go to foodbanks to feed there families or maybe as you have said boatlady there still wearing there rose tinted specs.

by bobby Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:08 pm

Redflag said
Surely these people watch the news and see the clergy coming out and telling Davy boy his cuts are the reason hardworking people have to go to foodbanks to feed there families or maybe as you have said boatlady there still wearing there rose tinted specs.

Yes quite right Red, and these same people are also hearing from the self same sources " Our economy is now growing, unemployment is down and the latest, consumer spending is due to rise this year" Its simply a matter of what they chose to believe, the Tory led Coalition or a Labour party who when not actually opposing are sometimes in agreement with.
What they are, or should I say what they are NOT doing is no way to win an Election. I still believe ED Miliband will make a fair Prime Minister, not one who will make much of a mark on History, but fair. The problem is "he has no Idea how to get there and is now it seems reliant on an American spin doctor, whereas there is certainly enough evidence of what this despicable Government has done, it needs for Labour to find a way past the media blockade, exactly the same problem Mr David Axelrod will have.
To become newsworthy he needs to fight as dirty as the Tories.
Just win the election and thanks to a certain Mr David Cameron he will have a full 5 year term to show us what he is all about. Whilst he does sfa the Coalition is getting more and more through the House of Commons which if Labour win the Election will be even more difficult to clear up.

by oftenwrong Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:47 pm

The significance of Mr. Axelrod entering the picture is that it expresses a clear preference on the part of the US Administration.

There are also those among the European Union who want nothing to do with Cameron's namby-pamby talk of a referendum on continued British membership.

Many overseas governments are very suspicious of the anti-foreigner attitude of our Home Office, and could indicate approval of a change at Westminster in various helpful ways.

by bobby Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:26 pm

Unfortunately ow US and other foreign citizens don't get a vote in May 2015

by boatlady Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:46 pm

The significance of Mr. Axelrod entering the picture is that it expresses a clear preference on the part of the US Administration.

Hadn't thought of that - interesting

by Redflag Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:09 am

bobby wrote:I still believe ED Miliband will make a fair Prime Minister, not one who will make much of a mark on History, but fair. The problem is "he has no Idea how to get there and is now it seems reliant on an American spin doctor, whereas there is certainly enough evidence of what this despicable Government has done, it needs for Labour to find a way past the media blockade, exactly the same problem Mr David Axelrod will have.
To become newsworthy he needs to fight as dirty as the Tories.

Bobby I know two wrongs do not make a right but when it comes to the Tories you got to fight "FIGHT with FIRE" I hope Mr Axelrod is also ready to RAM the Tory LIES down there throats and show the people of the UK just how the Tories have been fiddling the figures from every department within gov't, so I hope Mr Axelrod is a lot DIRTIER and more lowdown than Lyton Crosby because I think tha is what it will take to get a fair Labour gov't into power in May 2015.

by Dan Fante Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:11 am

oftenwrong wrote:The significance of Mr. Axelrod entering the picture is that it expresses a clear preference on the part of the US Administration.

There are also those among the European Union who want nothing to do with Cameron's namby-pamby talk of a referendum on continued British membership.

Many overseas governments are very suspicious of the anti-foreigner attitude of our Home Office, and could indicate approval of a change at Westminster in various helpful ways.

Incidentally, I distinctly remember a reported meeting between Obama and Cameron (before the latter was PM) with Obama supposedly commenting 'what a lightweight' afterwards.

by oftenwrong Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:45 pm

bobby wrote:Unfortunately ow US and other foreign citizens don't get a vote in May 2015

I expect you've come across an expression, bobby: "A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man".

Voters can be influenced by all sorts of considerations, even perhaps the evident approval of an outsider whose opinions are nevertheless .... influential.

by **Ivan** Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:57 pm

Labour prepares for dirty war against Tory spin machine ahead of 2015 election

Labour is to set up an “attack unit” to hit back immediately at Conservative attempts to target Ed Miliband in next year’s general election.

Michael Dugher, who is in charge of the party’s communications, said: “We won’t put up with what Kinnock did in 1992. When people tell lies about Labour, we’re going to nail that lie, and quickly. This will be the most technologically advanced campaign ever. It will be faster, more direct and discursive and will be the first to be fought online as much as it will on the doorstep and over the airwaves. We know the Tories and some of their friends in the media are intent on making this a nasty, negative and personal campaign against Labour and prominent Labour people. We are absolutely determined to call out our opponents when they distort the truth or smear Labour people - and there's much we can learn from the masters of media and online rebuttal in the US.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-labour-prepares-for-dirty-war-against-tory-spin-machine-ahead-of-2015-election-9275442.html

by **Phil Hornby** Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:58 pm

Sounds a bit more like it!

But start NOW...!

by oftenwrong Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:19 pm

How much will have changed after 22 May when people have voted for an MEP, and how much more can change after a referendum on Scottish independence? Making detailed plans now for a General Election not due for a year can't be easy.

by **Phil Hornby** Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:26 pm

I think what In am saying is that there should already be a strategy in place to challenge the wave after wave of propaganda which spews forth from the Press and other sources - most especially the Tory Party mouthpieces themselves.

In its absence there is free rein to tell all sorts of porkies and present a raft of distortions. All that is seriously damaging to Miliband and Labour.

But if they don't care, why should I? Another dose of Tory government won't really make an ounce of practical difference to me...

by boatlady Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:04 pm

Maybe there is a strategy --- maybe it's too early to reveal it

by **Ivan** Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:29 pm

I had an email from my local Labour Party membership secretary earlier today. It said that members in Crawley - one of the most marginal seats in the country (currently held by the Tories) - are campaigning twice a day, every day. In the face of a hostile press and a news blackout by the BBC for most of what Labour politicians say and do, this may well be the best way to operate. I resent any suggestion that Labour members aren't doing anything and don't care if they win or lose next year; nothing could be further from the truth.

by bobby Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:51 pm

I don’t know what strategy “doing nothing “ is, so how can it be too early to disclose it.
Ed Miliband doesn't need to disclose any form of strategy or even any policies. The Tory filth has told so many lies, made so many U Turns, implemented so many unfair policies, have failed to do everything they said they would do and have inflicted on us every thing they said they wouldn't, yet are still only around 4 points below Labour.
As things have been we shouldn't now be in the position of being like the England Football team and wait for other results to come in (Scottish yes no vote) but should be so far in front that the Jocks would want to stay in the UK knowing the Tories where out.
To me and others I have spoken to, other Labour supporters some seem to agree with me that Ed Miliband has now run out of time to launch a decent effective attack on the Tory’s so now in their panic have resorted to buying the expertise of an American Spin Doctor. I can not understand for the life of me why we have waited 4 full years for Labour to mount an opposition and then it is only rumblings.
We have waited the 4 years and are no further forward than we where back in 2010, except the Tory led Coalition have destroyed and taken the lives of the weakest in our Society, wrecked our welfare system and Privatised much of our NHS and Labour had done nothing to halt the Cancer spread by the Tory Bastards, they have allowed the Tory’s to smear the Labour Party for the 4 years yet when they attack Ed Miliband’s Father, Ed showed some metal and fought back, where was this fighting spirit when the Nation he wants to lead is getting Royaly carved up, where was this fighting spirit when his Country needed it.
Now that we are into the last year before the General Election, I think he has finally realised he has left it too late and instead of doubling the efforts he should have been making well over a year ago, he has it seems to me, pressed the panic button and has hired someone to do what he should be more than capable of, or could it be to have someone to blame if he loses.
I really don’t know how Mr David Axelrod is supposed to all of a sudden get the Media on side where all of those opposed to the Conservatives, with the exception of Nigel Farage have failed miserably. We have had countless marches and demonstrations, but hear nothing about it on the daily media reports.
I have made several donations to Labour, but now seriously wish I hadn’t if all Labour can do with my cash it is to employ an American to do their dirty work.
Like Phil, the Tory scum can’t hurt me financially but I deeply hate what the Coalition has bought this Country too.
I have said I will live in Italy should the Tory’s win, and as I see things at present am building up a stock of sun screen.

by bobby Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:27 am

Ivan, Of late I have become less and less enchanted with the performance of the Parliamentary Labour Party and agree fully re you post about The Crawley labour members. To me though its people like them and our very own Redflag who deserve better from those who's they are supporting, I haven't and do not decry the rank and file as there is only so much they can do, its the Paliamentary Labour Party who IMHO are letting everyone down.

by Redflag Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:55 am

Ivan wrote:Labour prepares for dirty war against Tory spin machine ahead of 2015 election

Labour is to set up an “attack unit” to hit back immediately at Conservative attempts to target Ed Miliband in next year’s general election.

Michael Dugher, who is in charge of the party’s communications, said: “We won’t put up with what Kinnock did in 1992. When people tell lies about Labour, we’re going to nail that lie, and quickly. This will be the most technologically advanced campaign ever. It will be faster, more direct and discursive and will be the first to be fought online as much as it will on the doorstep and over the airwaves. We know the Tories and some of their friends in the media are intent on making this a nasty, negative and personal campaign against Labour and prominent Labour people. We are absolutely determined to call out our opponents when they distort the truth or smear Labour people - and there's much we can learn from the masters of media and online rebuttal in the US.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-labour-prepares-for-dirty-war-against-tory-spin-machine-ahead-of-2015-election-9275442.html

This is one piece of good news I am glad to hear Ivan, the Labour party are going to have to fight FIRE WITH FIRE when it comes to the dirty tricks of the Tory party. If Labour members that are on twitter could be another "Attack Unit" for the Labour party and quelsh the Tory Blatant Lies & Spin that pop up on twitter, I am sure Michael Dugher would be grateful he could give us all a few tips on how tto handle certain Tory LIES like its all "Labours Mess" we are clearing up that is one LIE I would love to Ram Down the Throat of any Tory and make them Choke on it. lol!

by bobby Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:57 am

Red Said: "that is one LIE I would love to Ram Down the Throat of any Tory and make them Choke on it"

And if anyone could do it Red, it will be you.

by **Ivan** Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:27 pm

At first glance, this seems very odd. Why would Labour sack a parliamentary candidate for saying what some of us are saying all the time and which the party must know to be true? scratch

If you can read any of the text with the help of a magnifying glass, you'll see that some of the language used is quite extreme and even includes the 'c' word (and I don't mean 'Conservative'). I suppose it's been decided that Ms Hopkins is bringing the party into disrepute for having some fire in her belly. The decision to sack her seems harsh.

There is a tweet underneath her photo with Harriet Harman, and I've been trying to detect who she was writing to when she got herself into trouble..... Shocked

Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2) - Page 10 Bl-UR4pIcAAkHST

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl-UR4pIcAAkHST.jpg

by Dan Fante Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:20 pm

The article is here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2603398/Labour-axes-MP-went-vile-Twitter-rant-claiming-Tories-want-kill-sick-starve-disabled.html
If you can bring yourself to give the Mail's site some hits, that is.
She comes across as daft if it's true. I can't understand people hoping to get into public office getting into twitter arguments of that nature. Calling it 'vile' is hilarious mind.

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:17 pm

Ms Hopkins, who was due to stand for St Austell and Newquay in next year’s General Election, addressed last year’s party conference in Brighton and has been publicly supported by Ms Harman and her husband Jack Dromey, the Shadow Housing Minister.

After meeting Ed Miliband and shaking his hand, she wrote: ‘May never wash that hand again.’

Both Ms Harman – Labour’s Deputy Leader – and Mr Dromey have posed for pictures with Ms Hopkins, with Mr Dromey posting a message on Twitter describing her as ‘a great champion of Cornwall’.

But after this newspaper brought Ms Hopkins’s offensive messages to the attention of Labour’s high command yesterday, she was suspended from the party – rendering her ineligible to contest the election. Ms Hopkins, a 47-year-old single mother with a teenage son, posted the messages after being selected to fight the seat last autumn.

More...
Anger as Labour aide tweets that death toll at scandal-hit Mid Staffordshire Hospital was 'made up'
Tony Blair's son Euan targets ultra-safe Labour seat in Merseyside close to mother Cherie's childhood home

In October, she reacted to the news that the Coalition had voted down planned firearms restrictions with the message: ‘Murdering b*******’.

A few weeks later, when the Conservatives published their goals for society, such as ‘caring for one’s neighbour and good manners’, Ms Hopkins responded with her own mock slogan: ‘Killing the sick, starving the disabled, evicting the poor, destroying the hopes of children, stealing billions from the public’.

In the same month, during a debate over Britain’s imperial past, she accused a fellow Twitter user of being ‘proud of the genocide that was and is Empire. Sickening.’ And earlier this year she asked whether Iain Duncan Smith’s Department for Work and Pensions was using benefit cuts to try to achieve ‘population control by starvation’.

Ms Hopkins, a healthcare assistant, has already admitted that she voted for the local sitting MP, Liberal Democrat Stephen Gilbert, at the last election – but claimed it was because she ‘believed their lies and believed it was the only way to keep the Tories out’.

Deborah Hopkins accused the Conservatives of killing the sick and starving the disabled

She said she decided to stand for election after meeting Mr Dromey last May and being ‘inspired’ by his anger upon hearing how she struggled to make ends meet.

‘I was very frustrated by some politicians who didn’t seem angry enough about what was going on,’ she said. ‘I thought, “If you’re allowed to be a politician and still be angry, then it might be for me.” ’

In a statement last night, Ms Hopkins said: ‘I appreciate the language used in some of my tweets is offensive and not appropriate. I don’t wish to embarrass the Labour Party and apologise for any offence caused.’

A Labour spokesperson said: ‘We take matters such as these extremely seriously. Deborah Hopkins has been suspended from the Labour Party, pending further investigation.’

Tory MP Henry Smith said Ms Hopkins’s behaviour called into question the judgment of her supporters. ‘This vile and malicious language is unacceptable from a woman who was seeking to take on the huge privilege of representing the people of St Austell and Newquay,’ he said.

‘This calls into question the judgment of Harriet Harman and Jack Dromey, who publicly supported Ms Hopkins’s candidacy. They should be much more careful about whom they select in future.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2603398/Labour-axes-MP-went-vile-Twitter-rant-claiming-Tories-want-kill-sick-starve-disabled.html#ixzz2zoyatUIs

Please ensure that quotes do not exceed 15 lines in total, and remove any prompts to follow 'The Daily Mail' on Facebook or Twitter. Thanks.
Ivan.

by boatlady Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:04 pm

She sounds like an honest person with a sound grasp of reality - never cope in politics

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:32 pm

boatlady wrote:She sounds like an honest person with a sound grasp of reality - never cope in politics

Inside the House of Commons, the Party Line is strictly enforced by the whips. So you are right to suggest that a fresh voice would never be heard.

by Dan Fante Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:56 am

'Funny' how this is vile but falsely claiming £1000s in expenses is an honest mistake.

by boatlady Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:59 am

isn't it, though

by bobby Thu May 01, 2014 2:40 pm

Labour's Cost-Of-Living Contract With You

We Will:
1.Freeze gas and electricity bills until 2017 and reform the energy market

2.Get 200,000 homes built a year by 2020

3.Stop families that rent being ripped off and help them plan for the future with new long term predictable tenancies

4.Cut income tax for hardworking people through a lower 10p starting tax rate, and introduce a 50p top rate of tax as we pay off the deficit in a fair way

5.Ban exploitative zero-hour contracts

6.Make work pay by strengthening the Minimum Wage and providing tax breaks to firms that boost pay through the Living Wage

7.Back small businesses by cutting business rates and reforming the banks

8.Help working parents with 25 hours of free childcare for three- and four-year-olds

9.Tackle the abuse of migrant labour to undercut wages by banning recruitment agencies that only hire foreign workers and pressing for stronger controls in Europe

10.Back the next generation with a job guarantee for the young unemployed and more apprenticeships

This is our contract with you. Vote Labour to make Britain better off.

ED MILIBAND

I have received this e-mail from the Labour party, I must admit if the ten points where to be realised no body would be happier than me.
I have been very critical of the Labour response to everything Tory and to a point that hasn't changed. Lets hope that this so called contract by Ed Miliband doesn't go the same way as nearly all of the Coalitions pledges and promises. I am sorry Ed Miliband, but 4 years of inactivity hardly fills me with confidence, I hope I am wrong,

by Dan Fante Thu May 01, 2014 3:55 pm

boatlady wrote:isn't it, though

I know. Just it was a Tory MP describing it thus whilst there was nothing but support from the same party for the Miller (who did a lot worse).

by boatlady Thu May 01, 2014 5:31 pm

Double standards are what we expect from this government (maybe from any government)
The Labour Party manifesto Bobby has received seems like a reasonable starting point for a new Labour government - if Milliband can deliver on this - he's our man

by oftenwrong Thu May 01, 2014 5:53 pm

A General Election is more than a year away - but it is also still Labour's to lose.

by **Phil Hornby** Thu May 01, 2014 6:22 pm

I think I am with you, bobby.

But then, I always tend to pessimism...

by **Ivan** Thu May 01, 2014 8:28 pm

The Labour Party manifesto Bobby has received

I'm a Labour Party member, I wonder why I haven't received that email? Am I in disgrace for provoking Deborah Hopkins into sending me that tweet in which she said a few home truths about the Tories? scratch

by boatlady Fri May 02, 2014 10:14 am

Labour's Cost-Of-Living Contract with Alison

Labour will deal with the cost-of-living crisis. We will take immediate action to deal with the pressures facing families, and make the big long term changes we need so that hardworking people are better off.

We will:
1.Freeze gas and electricity bills until 2017 and reform the energy market

2.Get 200,000 homes built a year by 2020

3.Stop families that rent being ripped off and help them plan for the future with new long-term predictable tenancies

4.Cut income tax for hardworking people through a lower 10p starting tax rate, and introduce a 50p top rate of tax as we pay off the deficit in a fair way

5.Ban exploitative zero-hour contracts

6.Make work pay by strengthening the Minimum Wage and providing tax breaks to firms that boost pay through the Living Wage

7.Back small businesses by cutting business rates and reforming the banks

8.Help working parents with 25 hours free childcare for three- and four-year-olds

9.Tackle the abuse of migrant labour to undercut wages by banning recruitment agencies that only hire foreign workers and pressing for stronger controls in Europe

10.Back the next generation with a job guarantee for the young unemployed and more apprenticeships

This is our contract with you. Vote Labour to make Britain better off.

Ed Miliband Signature
SIGN THE CONTRACT

by oftenwrong Fri May 02, 2014 12:36 pm

The standard Tory reaction to all such Socialist proposals has always been to shout "uncosted".

Clearly the books need to balance. For one section of Society to benefit requires another section to pay the necessary taxes, and there is nothing more terrifying to an earner than an open-ended commitment.

by Redflag Fri May 02, 2014 6:16 pm

bobby wrote:Red Said: "that is one LIE I would love to Ram Down the Throat of any Tory and make them Choke on it"

And if anyone could do it Red, it will be you.

I am glad you have so much faith in me Bobby, I read what you said in an earlier post about moving to Italy if the Tories get another term and I cannot blame you because I have been thinking maybe it will be worth taking the chance and voting yes in Scotland's referendum. As you know bobby Scots do not vote Tory at any election it seem to be those in certain areas of England that vote the Tories into power.

by Sponsored content