Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Just to prove what a liar I am, always “making things up as I go along”, I’ll add three more sources to the discussion, but no doubt that won’t convince the pig-headed amongst us:-
 
“The Beveridge Report proposed an allowance of eight shillings per week for all children (apart from for a family's first child if one parent was working), which graduated according to age. It was to be non-contributory and funded by general taxation. After some debate, the Family Allowances Bill was enacted in June 1945. The act provided for a flat rate payment funded directly from taxation. The recommended nine shillings a week was reduced to five shillings, and family allowance became a subsidy, rather than a subsistence payment as Beveridge had envisaged.”
 
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/themes/beveridge-report-child-benefit.htm
 
“Known as the Family Allowance, the 5 shillings a week payment was given to parents only for their second AND subsequent children, thus helping shore up the depleted population by encouraging more births. It continued through the post-war boom but was restructured when the economy turned down again, being reinvented as Child Benefit in the second half of the 1970s. The new payments were tax free and first-time mothers also became eligible.”
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8041636/Child-Benefit-history.html
 
“In the UK, child benefit is administered by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). The system was first implemented in August 1946 as ‘family allowances’ under the Family Allowances Act 1945, at a rate of 5s (= £0.25) per week per child in a family, except for the eldest. This was raised from September 1952, by the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1952, to 8s (= £0.40), and from October 1956, by the Family Allowances Act and National Insurance Act 1956, to 8s for the second child with 10s (= £0.50) for the third and subsequent children.

It was modified in 1977, with the payments being termed ‘child benefit’ and given for the eldest child as well as the younger ones; by 1979 it was worth £4 per child per week. In 1991, the system was further altered, with a higher payment now given for the first child than for their younger siblings.”
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

bobby wrote:Red Said:  "that is one LIE I would love to Ram Down the Throat of any Tory and make them Choke on it"

And if anyone could do it Red, it will be you.

 
I am glad you have so much faith in me Bobby, I read what you said in an earlier post about moving to Italy if the Tories get another term and I cannot blame you because I have been thinking maybe it will be worth taking the chance and voting yes in Scotland's referendum.   As you know bobby Scots do not vote Tory at any election it seem to be those in certain areas of England that vote the Tories into power.

The Labour party have become nothing but a weak pish in an ocean.......and besides - they're nothing more than another bunch of self-serving tossers committed to the neo-liberal agenda.

Does anybody really believe this Labour party would make any real difference, or initiate any real change?

Hopefully the Electorate will be impressed by the simple assertion from Labour that their aims are intended to provide an element of fairness, which has been absent from Coalition policies since 2010.

Does honesty count for anything in 21st.C politics?

oftenwrong wrote:Does honesty count for anything in 21st.C politics?

 
I would like to think OW that Honesty and Openess in politics  is what people of the UK want, I know the Tories would be unable to givethe UK the Honesty because all they know is how to LIE through there back teeth.   I know Ed Miliband is doing his best to give the UK honesty in politics by not promising us the things he knows he could not keep after the 2015 general elections whichis FAIR in my book.

Rightly or wrongly, I have little faith in the British Electorate.

It is too driven by soundbites and Daily Mail propaganda, and is all too easily swayed by scare stories which touch on natural sensitivities in areas such as immigration and 'benefit cheating'. In sort, it is not sufficiently mature or patient to see through the cheap opportunism of politics, or to stick with the 'fair' when the seemingly 'dynamic' appears more attractive.

That is what Miliband is up against - and I doubt he can surmount it...

There may, however, be a Plan "B":

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonstone/most-people-who-voted-lib-dem-last-time-regret-it-theyre-als?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

Great link OW and it makes good reading, but Ed Miliband cannot rest on his laurels knowing he will get all the disaffected L/D voters will not be enough.   What the article says is spot on when I was in Eastleigh February 2013 I got told the same thing they would be voting Lib-Dem to keep the Tories out so maybe Eastleigh will be a prime seat for the Labour party to after in 2015. 

Redflag said "but Ed Miliband cannot rest on his laurels"

I'm sorry to say Red, but Ed Miliband hasn't earned any Laurels to rest on.

bobby. I do understand your frustrations, my friend, but I still think the media is the biggest issue. Most of it, including the BBC, ignores anything that Labour politicians say unless it can be twisted and used against them. You probably know from emails that you receive from the party that it's better organised on the ground than the Tories and Lib Dems. For example, Ed Miliband is in the marginal seat of Crawley tomorrow (Saturday); he’s trying to talk to as many voters as possible in places where it really matters.
 

As for the forthcoming Elections I shall be placing my mark with the Greens. I live in the heart of Surrey so no use Voting Labour, in fact at the moment I prefer the Greens to Labour anyway.

The EU elections are conducted under PR, using a regional list system. In the south east region, which includes Surrey, ten MEPs will be elected (I told someone previously that it was nine), according to how many votes each party gets. So voting Labour would not be a waste of a vote, it might help to secure an extra Labour MEP for the region (I think Labour only has one in the south east at present). That also means that voting for the Green Party is not a waste of a vote either.
 

bad publicity is better than no publicity and Farage is getting it all.

If the Green Party had half of the publicity given to Farage by the BBC, it would probably be doing even better than just challenging the Lib Dems for fourth place. How to confront the UKIP menace is a subject of fierce debate, but I don’t think you can just ignore its lies and exaggerations and hope it will go away.
 

don’t normally take too much notice of the polls, but as we have entered the final year before the General Election, Labour have taken yet another fall, some even show the Tories in front, this at a time when Labour should be and IMHO need to be way ahead.

On one day this week, two polls had the Tories 2% in front. That’s the first time in two years they’ve been ahead. By Thursday, Labour was back in the lead. I read today that Lynton Crosby is a director of YouGov, the polling firm owned by Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi; I don’t know if that has any significance……  

Labour's secret weapon in the run-up to May 2015 will be the countrywide ground-force of volunteers who were so successful at Eastleigh when our colleague Redflag lent personal support.  Ordinary electors are very receptive to honest talk from honest people, who can explain why newspaper opinion is not always impartial.

oftenwrong wrote:Hopefully the Electorate will be impressed by the simple assertion from Labour that their aims are intended to provide an element of fairness, which has been absent from Coalition policies since 2010.

Does honesty count for anything in 21st.C politics?

No - because all the main parties talk to the newspapers, not us.

On this point your wrong Penderyn, most of the papers are Right Wing Rags and only print what Tory HQ tells them to print.

I have voted for UKIP in the European elections, not because I like Farage but because he is for what I want, for the UK to be free of European interference in UK affaires. I have voted Labour in the council elections, but if Milliband doesn't get is act together I won't vote Labour in the next General Elections. I certainly don't trust Cameron to have a referendum in 2017 for an in or out vote for the European Union.
I never voted to join the Common Market when we had a referendum for that and certainly never voted for the predicament that that we are in now.

Postal vote?

That is right Ivan, it seems some have never heard of postal voting, I think there would be a big percentage of people voting to if everyone had the choice of postal voting.
Bobby, if it is true what you say about UKIP MEPs not turning up and getting paid paid for doing sod all. Then that will make them no different to lots of other party's Euro MEPs, and members of our Parliament and House of Lords.
Mine is a protest vote, fed up with voting for people who say one thing then go an do something entirely different. They don't care about the people who vote for them's agenda just their own.  

Postal Vote. My apologies Jack. As I have never used one it completely slipped what's left of my mind.
Personally I think a better protest vote would be the green party, if they gain an extra seat or more at least they would try to use it to making this world a bit better.

Individual adherents to the Green Party appear to make an attractive alternative, but if they were ever to form a government we would REALLY discover how the cost of living could soar.

http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ey.html

often wrong said: Individual adherents to the Green Party appear to make an attractive alternative, but if they were ever to form a government we would REALLY discover how the cost of living could soar.

Absolutely correct Terry, but as they are almost a fringe party in the UK and have very little hope of becoming the Government, where they serve a good purpose is when joined with all other EU Greens nipping away at the heels of any EU policy they deem unsafe or unhealthy.

10 parties have candidates in our European and Council elections, three, Labour, Conservatives and Lib/Dem's want us to remain in Europe. The other 7 want us to come out, UKIP, Greens, English Democratic Party, British Nationalist Party, and three more who's names escape, I now remember one, The Yorkshire First party, (never heard of them). I voted UKIP because they look the only party that could win seats, but 7 competing for the voters who want out of Europe make it harder for one to win, they are splitting the voters.

I would not vote for UKIP because they seem to me to be a bunch of racist, misogynistic, homophobic yahoos with only one policy.

I pay my taxes, and would rather see the money spent on someone with a political vision of a positive sort, as opposed to someone who will draw the generous salary and fail even to turn up to work

You said seem, so you are not sure about them, because the want to stop loads of immigrants coming doesn't make them racist.
Has far as I am concerned, the ends justify the means, they seem to be the only party with any chance of getting us out of the European Union, and I think any that get elected to the European Parliament with do everything possible to block anything detrimental to the United Kingdom, and in our own elections next year there is a possibility they could get power or influence any other party the managed to win a majority or enough seats to form a coalition government. Ed Milliband is the weak link in the Labour Party, would have much preferred his brother. I have voted Labour all my life, this Europe issue is something that could make me change my mind for a British Government.

I would always want to vote for a government that has more than one policy, myself, but if you feel the only important thing is getting out of Europe, maybe UKIP will answer your wishes.

UKIP supporters (at the local government candidate level, at least) do seem to be racist, homophobic and misogynistic - they certainly wouldn't get my vote.

jackthelad wrote:You said seem, so you are not sure about them, because the want to stop loads of immigrants coming doesn't make them racist.
Has far as I am concerned, the ends justify the means, they seem to be the only party with any chance of getting us out of the European Union, and I think any that get elected to the European Parliament with do everything possible to block anything detrimental to the United Kingdom, and in our own elections next year there is a possibility they could get power or influence any other party the managed to win a majority or enough seats to form a coalition government. Ed Milliband is the weak link in the Labour Party, would have much preferred his brother. I have voted Labour all my life, this Europe issue is something that could make me change my mind for a British Government.

Jackthelad the only way that Ukip could bring the UK out of the EU it would have to get a majority gov't in Westminister, all I will say is be carefull do not jump out of the frying pan into the fire in regards to your choice of who to vote for. I do understand your lack of faith in Ed Miliband but he has a lot to overcome after the kicking the Labour party took at the 2010 general election, and a lot of people have held it against him for beating his brother to the leadership of the Labour party, IMHO there was too much Hype attached to David Miliband and the voters of the UK would of thought him to near to Tony Blair politics.

I would ask you not to let the Tories get another term in office in 2015 you have seen what they have done to the UK since May 2010, the rich have doubled there wealth in the last FOUR years while the other 99% have suffered and got poorer. So all I will say Jackthelad please give Ed Miliband a chance and vote Labour this May and May 2015 that way we will keep Scameron and his pigs noses out of the trough of taxpayers money but most important our NHS willl be safe too.  

I have voted Labour this May in the Council Elections, whether I vote Labour in 2015 is another matter, Ed Milliband is our Member of Parliament, I have supported him so far but is stance on our being a member of the European Union is not my stance or the majority of the UK people. The present Labour Party is not the Labour Party I supported 61 years ago, this lot have turned their backs on he Trade Unions, the people the Labour Party is all about. If fact Ed Milliband seems to be a Thatcher supporter when it comes to the Trade Unions.
Boatlady, you accuse UKIP of being a party with one policy, that makes them no different than to the Tories or Lib/Dems, the Tories policy is to look after the rich and everyone else can look after themselves. The Lib/Dems policy is sell your soul for power at any cost, they may bathe in their 15 minutes of fame, after the next election they will be up the creek without a paddle trying to find a new leader to follow.

the ends justify the means

The slogan of every dictatorship and every genocidal political movement since the dawn of history --- just saying

you accuse UKIP of being a party with one policy, that makes them no different than to the Tories or Lib/Dems

I thought the beauty of UKIP was that they ARE different?? - just saying

jackthelad. Thanks for responding to my circular and logging in to Cutting Edge again, that’s much appreciated.
 
Your posts have thrown up a number of interesting issues, but allow me to correct three misapprehensions:-
 
- Anyone who is on the electoral register can have a postal vote these days, and they don’t need to give a reason for wanting one.
 
- The Green Party is in favour of the EU, although it is very critical of it and would like a referendum.
 
- Several polls recently have suggested that a majority of Brits want us to stay in the EU; for example:-
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/now-54-of-us-want-to-stay-in-the-european-union-says-poll-9376931.html
 
I agree with you that, after his previous “cast iron guarantee”, Cameron can’t be trusted to hold a referendum on the EU. In fact, with his record on the NHS, VAT, Sure Start centres, no cuts to frontline services etc, Cameron has shown that he can’t be trusted on anything. But then he is a Tory. Personally, I don't want to see a referendum on our EU membership because it would cause uncertainty and if the result is close or the turnout low, the result wouldn't settle anything. That issue has been discussed more fully here:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t837-is-it-undemocratic-to-be-opposed-to-an-eu-referendum
 
I also share your concern over the Labour front bench attitude to trade unions. It seems that the leadership is not prepared to support any industrial action, however justified it might be. That may be a tactic to avoid scaring off the many Lib Dem voters from 2010 who have switched their allegiance to Labour and are needed to ensure a victory next year. The only consolation is that Labour is still the best bet for working people; the Tories want employers to be able to sack people without giving a reason, and UKIP wants to remove all rights to paid holidays (28 days a year are guaranteed by the EU) and maternity leave.
 
However, I don’t agree with you that Ed Miliband is a weak link for Labour. As Azeem Ibrahim wrote (and this was before Ed stopped us going to war in Syria):-
 
“Miliband threatened the banks with separation between their investment (casino) and retail (piggy bank) arms. He’s threatened to break up the big six energy companies unless they start giving consumers a better deal. He wants to give councils new powers to penalise development firms which don't build on the land they have and wait for it to go up in value. Then there was Google, who he has challenged to pay more tax.”
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/azeem-ibrahim/ed-miliband-strong-leader_b_3661956.html
 
As to where Labour should position itself, we now have this news:-
 
Miliband makes his big offer on the minimum wage
 
"Labour leader pledges to increase the minimum wage faster than median earnings over the next parliament."

For the details:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/miliband-makes-his-big-offer-minimum-wage

To IVAN Jackthelad & Boatlady If any of you know someone in the Labour party that knows how to get the attention of whoever is running the Labour party's 2015 general election campaign.   I will copy a letter in todays Daily Mirror from the letters page which I think would be worth while to help in the campaign so people of the UK NEVER forget what the ConDems have done to the people of the UK.
 
Here's an idea for a poster for Labour's 2015 election campaign - a cartoon showing the evil Scameron offering a bowl of soup to an orphan.  Underneath the words "Britain today - Please do not ConDem the sick, disabled and vulnerable in our once-caring society to food banks.  Vote for decency - Vote Labour.
I'm sure this will be a winner as Oliver Twist is a favourite important today more than ever.
Sent in by Bill Cook Teignmouth Devon

Redflag. Douglas Alexander is in charge of Labour’s general election campaign. You can contact him on Twitter - @DAlexanderMP. I suggest you send him a couple of tweets, simply drawing his attention to ‘The Daily Mirror’ of 20.05.14, letters page, adding the page number and the name of the letter writer.

Ivan wrote:Redflag. Douglas Alexander is in charge of Labour’s general election campaign. You can contact him on Twitter - @DAlexanderMP. I suggest you send him a couple of tweets, simply drawing his attention to ‘The Daily Mirror’ of 20.05.14, letters page, adding the page number and the name of the letter writer.

Have done what you have suggeted Ivan let us hope he takes a look.

I hate to say this but it is the Eve of the EU election and we have not had a single leaflet from the Labour Party......Do they want my vote or not?


Better still I will be able to vote in a by-election on the 5th June and the Tory's have already sent me three newsletter type leaflets but again nothing for Labour.........

astradt1. You've just told us that you live in the Newark constituency, which is a rock solid Tory seat. The big advantage of the system used for the EU elections is that the votes of those of us who live in safe Tory seats aren't 'wasted'. Votes are cast across a region, and ours might help an additional candidate to get elected.
 
The odds are that Labour Party members are very thin on the ground in Newark, and the local party probably doesn't have the foot soldiers to deliver leaflets to everyone or the money to produce additional circulars. The only way to find out is to contact the local party, or even better, to join it!

good point!!
  

Ivan wrote:astradt1. The odds are that Labour Party members are very thin on the ground in Newark, and the local party probably doesn't have the foot soldiers to deliver leaflets to everyone or the money to produce additional circulars. The only way to find out is to contact the local party, or even better, to join it!

Either that or move to an area where the Labour Party is stronger, Labour doesn't have the funds that the Tories get, and Labour will get less funds if they don't stop falling out with the Unions, that is where they get the majority of funds from. I have had leaflets from every darn party, some I never knew existed, they must have had to chop down a small forest to supply all those leaflets. 

jackthelad wrote:I have voted for UKIP in the European elections, not because I like Farage but because he is for what I want, for the UK to be free of European interference in UK affaires. I have voted Labour in the council elections, but if Milliband doesn't get is act together I won't vote Labour in the next General Elections. I certainly don't trust Cameron to have a referendum in 2017 for an in or out vote for the European Union.
I never voted to join the Common Market when we had a referendum for that and certainly never voted for the predicament that that we are in now.

The only way that Farage can bring the UK out of the EU he will have to get a majority gov't in WESTMINISTER Jackthelad, so if you thought by giving your vote for MEP to Ukip will get us out of the EU you have been taken for a ride. You say your a Labour voter if you have a Labour MP for your constituency go tell him you want the Labour party to give the people of the UK a referendum on an IN-OUT of the EU if enough people call for it the Labour party WILL HAVE to give us one, due to the popularity of Ukip.

STOX515 wrote:a interesting view point Red,  

but this whole election was never really about Europe was it? but if you now belive we are in a four party state then each political party will in-turn have a lower share of the votes?

Red, I know only a serving government can bring us out of the European Union, but they will only bring us out if there is a referendum and the vote is for out. None of the present top three parties want out and i don't believe Cameron will have a referendum in 2017 if the Conservatives magically win the next election. He is a liar, just like when he says the NHS is safe in there hands. If we can get Farage and his UKIP elected then we will be out, and stopping all these immigrants coming into the country will relieve the burden of a Housing, Schools, and the drain on the NHS, plus there will be a lot less benefit scroungers.
By the way, Ed Miliband is my member of Parliament, I have been in touch with him about other concerns and he has replied or someone on his behalf. He said, now he and the Labour Party will listen to what people have to say, will it make a difference, I doubt it, he is a stick in the mud European in my opinion. If he changes his mind about Europe then all well and good, then there will be no need for to vote for UKIP. Still it will be interesting to see how many seats UKIP win in the European elections, quite a few if we can go on the council voting, I suppose there will be a low turn out for that too.

jackthelad wrote:-
I don't believe Cameron will have a referendum in 2017 if the Conservatives magically win the next election……If we can get Farage and his UKIP elected then we will be out, and stopping all these immigrants coming into the country will relieve the burden of a Housing, Schools, and the drain on the NHS, plus there will be a lot less benefit scroungers.

Sadly, there is a chance that the Tories will win the next election outright, though it isn’t very likely. Electoral Calculus currently rates the possibility at 10%:-
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
 
However, there is absolutely no chance of UKIP winning the next election. In fact, there is a strong chance that UKIP won’t get any MPs at all, as both that Electoral Calculus site and Lord Ashcroft’s massive opinion poll of 26,000 voters suggest.
 
I agree that problems can arise for school places, housing and access to health care if a sudden influx of immigrants descend on one place (as I believe Poles did in Southampton about a decade ago). But don’t let’s kid ourselves; governments don’t allow, and often encourage, immigration as an act of charity, but because we need it. Jamaicans were brought here in the 1950s to do jobs which nobody else wanted, for example on the London Underground. Did you know that when he was Minister of Health in the early 1960s, Enoch Powell encouraged 18,000 doctors to come here from Asia because the NHS was understaffed?   
 
At the beginning of this millennium, the birth rate in the UK was only 1.6 children per couple. Had that continued, there would have been insufficient people to work, pay taxes and care for an ageing population. We desperately needed immigrants. Far from being a drain on the NHS, immigrant doctors and nurses have kept it going. And far from being scroungers, immigrants are less likely to claim benefits than the indigenous population. If you think about it, people with the initiative to seek a better life across the other side of the world are likely to be well motivated to work hard.
 
As to European migration, let’s not forget that at least 2.25 million Brits live and/or work in other EU countries. In time, we should see it as no different from people moving around the UK for work. People come here to do a job – as many Brits do in European countries – and then they return home, or go somewhere else, when the job is done. Many of the Poles who came to the UK soon after Poland joined the EU aren’t here now.
 
There is a lot more discussion of the issues surrounding immigration on this thread:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t119-should-immigration-always-be-perceived-as-a-problem

jackthelad wrote:By the way, Ed Miliband is my member of Parliament, I have been in touch with him about other concerns and he has replied or someone on his behalf. He said, now he and the Labour Party will listen to what people have to say, will it make a difference, I doubt it, he is a stick in the mud European in my opinion. If he changes his mind about Europe then all well and good, then there will be no need for to vote for UKIP. Still it will be interesting to see how many seats UKIP win in the European elections, quite a few if we can go on the council voting, I suppose there will be a low turn out for that too.

 
To a certain degree I do agree with you Jackthelad, I tend to think that Ed and the Labour party will go away with the results of the local and EU elections and have a big Conflab on what policies they will have to put into there 2015 Manifesto so that they win the 2015 general election, and since most of the people in the UK want a referendum on IN-OUT of the EU the Labour party will have to come out and offer one.
 
As I have said before Jackthelad be very carefull of what you wish for do not let Farage pull the wool over your eyes with  that ciggy in one hand and a pint in the other pretending to be something he is  DEINITELY NOT, he is nothing more than an EX Tory party member & EX City of London Dealer.   He is also more right wing than todays Tories if he gets into power the UK would go back to the days of what fills the pages of a Charles Dickens book.
 
I would of thought that anyone that lived in Ed Milibnds constituency would have easy access to his party office and could let there feelings be known to his staff in his constituency office who I would hope would pass on your and other Labour party members anger and frustration  at his preformance for the working people of the UK.