Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Just to prove what a liar I am, always “making things up as I go along”, I’ll add three more sources to the discussion, but no doubt that won’t convince the pig-headed amongst us:-
 
“The Beveridge Report proposed an allowance of eight shillings per week for all children (apart from for a family's first child if one parent was working), which graduated according to age. It was to be non-contributory and funded by general taxation. After some debate, the Family Allowances Bill was enacted in June 1945. The act provided for a flat rate payment funded directly from taxation. The recommended nine shillings a week was reduced to five shillings, and family allowance became a subsidy, rather than a subsistence payment as Beveridge had envisaged.”
 
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/themes/beveridge-report-child-benefit.htm
 
“Known as the Family Allowance, the 5 shillings a week payment was given to parents only for their second AND subsequent children, thus helping shore up the depleted population by encouraging more births. It continued through the post-war boom but was restructured when the economy turned down again, being reinvented as Child Benefit in the second half of the 1970s. The new payments were tax free and first-time mothers also became eligible.”
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8041636/Child-Benefit-history.html
 
“In the UK, child benefit is administered by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). The system was first implemented in August 1946 as ‘family allowances’ under the Family Allowances Act 1945, at a rate of 5s (= £0.25) per week per child in a family, except for the eldest. This was raised from September 1952, by the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1952, to 8s (= £0.40), and from October 1956, by the Family Allowances Act and National Insurance Act 1956, to 8s for the second child with 10s (= £0.50) for the third and subsequent children.

It was modified in 1977, with the payments being termed ‘child benefit’ and given for the eldest child as well as the younger ones; by 1979 it was worth £4 per child per week. In 1991, the system was further altered, with a higher payment now given for the first child than for their younger siblings.”
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

OW I do not see Ed strong enough to win the election in may for labour, so I see the bloody tories getting in.
I do not know what will happen if that does happen, except disaster for the poor and those on benefits.
I am having sleepless nights as it is, heaven knows what it will be like if the tories get in.

It will not be a pretty site stuart if the Tories get into power in 2015, I can see the building of the WORKHOUSE which will give work to some "MAYBE" unless they get the unemployed to biuld them, on the other side of the coin I see REVELUTION within the UK if the Tories get back into power.

Oh Redflag.
Did you see the cuts that they plan to do in yesterdays paper?
Law and order= police numbers going to fall by 33.000 or one in four. Education= 800 sure start centres set up by labour closing.
Immigration= A cut of 27% border force staff making it easier for immigrants to enter the UK.
TAX= Raising VAT straight away if they get back in to 22.5%.
Defence=cutting the 2010 level of 102.000 to 82.500 by 2017 then by 2020 down to JUST 60.000!!!
Local council.=rubbish pick up times increased so no more weekly pick ups!! Increasing infections,and mice and rats etc.
PRISONS=DANGER-= Almost filled to capacity 86.000, cuts will see these places slashed by 23,000!!!
More dangerous prisoners on the loose walking the streets, far less police to deal with them, now get yourselves armed.

On a positive note, The Labour leader restated his opposition to the proposed pay rise for MPs next year recommended by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority.

"I'm not going to be part of a government that gives a big pay rise to MPs when we are still having tough times for nurses, teachers, lots of public and private sector workers - I don't think that's on," he said.

"I can't imagine allowing it to happen - and we are going to have to find a way of stopping it - to allow MPs to get a 9% pay rise while other people are suffering."

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/miliband-vows-to-lower-voting-age/ar-BBgvcDy?ocid=U219DHP

Actually OW it is a 11% rise for MPs next year and I do not think it was IPSA that worked that one out I see Tory hands all over that increase in pay.

Very true Redflag it is actually 11% proposed by the Tories.

Ivan, have you seen in today's paper that Ed is going to make a speech today, and will outline labour's plans for when they get in power in may.
Unfortunately some see it as a bad speech? basically what he is going to say is that labour in their first 5 years in power are going to be making cuts here and there, and the only places that are safe are, the NHS, the SCHOOLS, and AID.
They think that this will turn some of the labour supporters against voting labour, what do you think?

stuart torr wrote:OW I do not see Ed strong enough to win the election in may for labour, so I see the bloody tories getting in.
I do not know what will happen if that does happen, except disaster for the poor and those on benefits.
I am having sleepless nights as it is, heaven knows what it will be like if the tories get in.

I don't think he's especially weak per se. More a rabbit caught in the headlights (of the Murdcoh media machine). Unfortunately his politics aren't sufficiently different enough for him to capitalise on. That's why labour has missed open goal after open goal with this government and been allowed to be positioned as inept scapegoats never again to be trusted.

What we need is for Labour to be asking some simple basic questions of the government. For example:

In respect of benefits, why has noone asked IDS what support he gives to people that are sanctioned so they don't die of hunger?

Why have they not asked the tories to explain and evidence their claims that Labour ruined the economy or that Labour instituted a 'something for nothing' welfare culture (when they toughened the system, introduced the appalling WCA, and brought former banker David Freud into government - a man with no experience of the benefit system)?

Unfortunately Labour are the only alternative to this awful government and it is imperative that we remove them, by any means (not ukip). Most likely outcome next year is a hung parliament though.

It is going to be very close we know that G.W.

I can say that he is a very confident and competent public performer - took random questions from the floor yesterday for over an hour and answered every one - even the silly ones - with respect and real answers - I feel very convinced that Ed can be a very good (perhaps even an exceptional) Prime Minister and certainly much better than the current sad excuse for a leader the country is suffering.

As Ed said yesterday - 'the country will be run by the people who bother to turn up' - so let's all bother to turn up

I will for sure boatlady, and I will make as many as I can!!!

Good article here:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/01/dear-tony-blair-electorate-shifted-left-ed-miliband?commentpage=2

The article pretty much sums up Blair's destruction of Labour.

My two'penneth: Blair is an establishment bullshitter.
He was a cancer in the Labour movement and his malignancy festers still.

He was NEVER a man who had Labour in his blood - not even an iota. He's just a sad freaky sociopath / psychopath like a lot of other neo-liberal thieves who feed off the masses to sate the appetite of the few.

The picture of two snakes in cahoots is fitting. Good article.

Why on earth is Blair seeming to work against the labour party that he once lead? when he should be backing them with all his might, what a toerag.

stuart torr wrote:Oh Redflag.
Did you see the cuts that they plan to do in yesterdays paper?
Law and order= police numbers going to fall by 33.000 or one in four. Education= 800 sure start centres set up by labour closing.
Immigration= A cut of 27% border force staff making it easier for immigrants to enter the UK.
TAX= Raising VAT straight away if they get back in to 22.5%.
Defence=cutting the 2010 level of 102.000 to 82.500 by 2017 then by 2020 down to JUST 60.000!!!
Local council.=rubbish pick up times increased so no more weekly pick ups!! Increasing infections,and mice and rats etc.
PRISONS=DANGER-= Almost filled to capacity 86.000, cuts will see these places slashed by 23,000!!!
More dangerous prisoners on the loose walking the streets, far less police to deal with them, now get yourselves armed.

There is a lot more cuts that the Tories are not telling us about stuart, only if the people of the UK are daft enough to vote them back into power in 2015. The Labour party need to start choking Cameron & Osborne with the millions of LIES they have told over the last 5years about how everything is Labours fault.

I do not how Osborne can say that Labour will put the UK into chaos he has not seen the Labours 2015 Manifesto yet, still more LIES been spouted by Cameron & Osborne via Lyton Crosby. Do they suspect that the people of the UK have woke up to the NASTINESS of the Tories & Lib-Dems.

I know Redflag, it really is disgusting is it not? if anyone can still vote for them knowing what they are going to do they should be locked up in a mental home.

I would say CERTIFIED is completely off there rocker with no chance of recovery stuart

CERTAINLY Redflag.

With the right-wing press only interested in publishing negative stories about Labour (and about Ed Miliband in particular), and the BBC cowed by threats from Tories such as Grant Shapps over the renewal of its licence fee, the party has been taking its case directly to voters. Those of us who are members will have received an e-mail recently pointing out how volunteers have enabled the ‘Labour doorstep’ campaign to speak to 4.3 million voters so far.

Cameron has changed the election rules so that parties can spend more during the official campaign. The Tories have a war chest of over £78 million, raised mainly from hedge funds and corporate donors and cronies who have benefited from the fire sale of state assets which has been going on since 2010. Even under the rules which they've amended, they can’t spend all of that. However, they are well prepared should a second election become necessary if nobody can form a government after 7 May, and they are expected to outspend Labour by 3 to 1 in the next four months.

As you will know, the Tories have already started spending on billboard advertising with their ridiculous ‘road to nowhere’ poster (which has trended on Twitter as ‘road to ruin’). However, as Douglas Alexander, Labour’s election co-ordinator, has written: “The air war still has its place but it is on the ground where this election will be won or lost”. And it’s on the ground that Labour is strong, with a far superior organisation, more party members and far more volunteers than the Tories to give out leaflets and knock on doors.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/02/labour-general-election-campaign-douglas-alexander

Where exactly is that poster Ivan?

Ivan we all know this will get worse as the time goes on, Ed & the Labour party need to start fighting Fire with Fire they have enough ammunition with all the LIES the Tories are telling the gulliable voting public. I know maybe Ed does not want to stoop to Scamerons level but he will have to because Cameron will not stop LYING until people stop believing the TRIPE he is spouting.

Ammunition Redflag, labour have a whole war supply?

Plus the Tories keep supplying more every time they open there gobs stuart, I was watching Cameron on the Andrew Marr show today (Sunday) he was determined it was going to be a Tory party broadcast and Marr did not stop him I will be watching next week and see if he allows Ed Miliband the same freedom.

I hope Ed was watching it so he will know where to strike at the Tory LIES about Labour parties Manifesto since it has not been published YET, £Ed will have to play just as dirty as him & Lyton Crosby are intending to play this general election.

Let us hope so Redflag.

Labour and the Tories aren’t the same - so why do voters still think they are?

From an article by George Eaton:-

Around 2006-7, the ideological terrain on which Labour and the Tories fought was microscopically small. The crash brought that era to a close and resurrected the distributional questions rendered irrelevant by the boom. It was no longer possible for Labour and the Conservatives to pledge to avoid both tax rises and spending cuts: choices had to be made.

The two parties have made different ones ever since. In the months after the crash, the Tories opposed Labour’s fiscal stimulus and relinquished their commitment to match the government’s spending plans. Labour elected Ed Miliband as its leader; his defining aim was to overturn the 30-year consensus against market intervention. In office, Cameron proved more radical than his emollient manner suggested, unleashing the private sector in areas where Thatcher had feared to tread.

Labour would restore the 50p rate, introduce a mansion tax, roll back privatisation, maintain Britain’s membership of the EU and impose spending cuts of about £7bn. The Tories would avoid tax increases on the wealthy, extend privatisation, stage a referendum on whether to leave the EU and impose cuts of about £33bn. When Britons go to the polls in May, they will be offered two vastly different conceptions of the country’s future. But when voters cry “you’re all the same!” they are rarely referring to policy. Their complaint instead reflects how indistinguishable politicians seem in appearance, manner and accent. They may be on different teams but they are still playing the Westminster equivalent of the wall game.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/labour-and-tories-aren-t-same-so-why-do-voters-still-think-they-are

Wherever the Miliband Labour Party chooses to position itself, there will be people who would prefer for themselves to be elected, and will therefore consistently criticise or deprecate.

It's no surprise that like-minded people who are regular contributors to Cutting Edge can't help being offended by the continuous stream of unfriendly commentary.

What I find surprising is that anyone should allow their support for the Party to be deflected by such obvious propaganda.

You are so right any fool can see the only way to achieve change is to get behind Milliband and the Labour party and VOTE LABOUR

oftenwrong wrote:Wherever the Miliband Labour Party chooses to position itself, there will be people who would prefer for themselves to be elected, and will therefore consistently criticise or deprecate.

It's no surprise that like-minded people who are regular contributors to Cutting Edge can't help being offended by the continuous stream of unfriendly commentary.

What I find surprising is that anyone should allow their support for the Party to be deflected by such obvious propaganda.

That is why they do it OW, hoping they can persuade Labour voters to vote Tory, as far as I am concerned the Tories can say what they want I know different the only way we will have a fair gov't in the UK is if Ed Miliband gets his majority gov't in May. SO I WILL BE VOTING LABOUR on 7th May & dxo all I can to help Ed to get the keys to No10.

I can't help wondering whether the answer might be to arrange for you to be cloned, Redflag.  

Great idea OW.

boatlady wrote:You are so right  any fool can see the only way to achieve change is to get behind Milliband and the Labour party and VOTE LABOUR

but what change do you think they will bring?

Ed Balls is100% behind the government's austerity plan and labor had been front and centre pushing through cuts in local councils, silencing members that disagree. The pay had comprehensively failed to present the alternative. Largely because they have none.

but what change do you think they will bring?

I'm not perhaps the best person to answer this question - don't have the facility that perhaps some others have, but here goes with my understanding:-
1) Attacking zero hours contracts and other factors that undermine the employment rights of the ordinary people.
2) Raising the minimum wage and working towards a living wage
3) Investing in the NHS, putting patients before profits
4) commitment to build more social housing and looking at measures to regulate private tenancies so as to give people secure tenure in decent homes
5) standing up to the big power companies
6) mansion tax
7) cancel the bedroom tax


Off the top of my head, these are the main changes I confidently expect to see  very quickly after the installation of a Labour majority government.
I'm sure others will point out even more policy commitments the party has made.

In addition, based on my lifetime experience of living under Labour governments, I would expect to see a refocussing if you like - maybe there won't be much more money being spent but what there is will be invested in education and public services, infrastructure that creates opportunities for ordinary people - things like Sure Start and Connexions - coordination of services so as to produce more with less (e.g the coordination of Health with Social Care) - rather than the way this current government has used public money - to outsource, at enormous expense. services which were efficiently provided within the public sector; to provide bonuses and lucrative contracts to their friends and sponsors; to spend more on social security while creating greater hardship.

oftenwrong wrote:I can't help wondering whether the answer might be to arrange for you to be cloned, Redflag.  

It has came out today that Ed Miliband will not be using the same tactics as Davy boy & the Tories, using dirty tricks like the posters we have all seen and the name calling (things that kids do in the school yard).    I can assure you all on cutting edge where ever I go to help Labour MPs I will tell the people of the UK the truth about Tories and will spell it out in plain language and if a swear slips out so be it.

Thank you OW for the compliment but do not think the Tories could cope with several copies of me they would all be running for the nearest ASYLUM for protection.

A Labour government after the elections in May is the only alternative to five more years similar to the past five years.

That alone should guarantee Miliband a landslide.

But will it?

bobby wrote:The cuts I believe where made by the Coalition Government, the Labour Councils had no choice in the matter. They could only spend what they had and that was reduced heavily by Herr Cameron and his bestest mate Clegg.

That's only true to a point.

The problem is Labour is not opposing anything. At best they are claiming to be heavy hearted about it but at the same time they are silencing any objection within their own ranks. Ed Balls has committed the party to following Osborne's plans if he gets in. What's the point of him? Why is he even in the Labour party if they are at all a left wing party anymore. The answer is they aren't; that ship sailed with tony blair.

boatlady wrote:but what change do you think they will bring?

I'm not perhaps the best person to answer this question - don't have the facility that perhaps some others have, but here goes with my understanding:-
1) Attacking zero hours contracts and other factors that undermine the employment rights of the ordinary people.
2) Raising the minimum wage and working towards a living wage
3) Investing in the NHS, putting patients before profits
4) commitment to build more social housing and looking at measures to regulate private tenancies so as to give people secure tenure in decent homes
5) standing up to the big power companies
6) mansion tax
7) cancel the bedroom tax

I doubt you will see many of those if any. I think they will cancel the Bedroom Tax - after all saying they will and refusing to do so would be absolute suicide, even for someone as hopeless as Miliband.

Unfortunately the evidence just isn'tt here. The NMW will not increase anywhere near enough if at all.

A pledge to freeze energy prices may well come to pass but it's a desperately far cry from renationalisation which is what's needed.

Investing in the NHS? Easy to say, but the real question is how much and into what? If it just goes into more privatisation (which Labour were all for, remember, along with copying the PFI model the Major government started) or PFI or management then that's no good.

Building more social housing? Again it depends on the detail. We need a completely new model and a total ban on buy to let. Will they take back housing from private interests?

There are too few good Labour politicians and too many career types desperate to chase the right wing UKIP led vote. The only Labour cabinet person I have any time for is Andy Burnham and I'm watching him...i don't expect miracles Im' afraid!

oftenwrong wrote:A Labour government after the elections in May is the only alternative to five more years similar to the past five years.

That alone should guarantee Miliband a landslide.

But will it?

I am entirely sceptical of a landslide. More likely a hung parliament. There just isn't the will in enough people to go out and vote. All parties are responsible for that and it's a dreadful state of affairs, not helped by a broken electoral system.

I agree Labour is the most realistic alternative, but only because the tories are so much worse.

None of the parties are offering anything. I would happily give the Greens a go, but again, as with Labour, in local councils, they do very little to stop austerity and just wring their hands. It's not good enough.

All undoubtedly true, but how many votes are produced by wringing of the hands?



People like Redflag are the positive answer - prepared to knock on doors and stuff envelopes to inform and enthuse potential Labour voters.

Enthuse them about what though? Labour are part of the problem. When they are suspending their own members serving as councilors for objecting to austerity what will you do?

ghost whistler wrote:The problem is Labour is not opposing anything.

Let me explain something that you and others have not grasped GW, the numbers within the HOC it is a waste of time that Labour opposing Tory policies reason is Labour HAS 258 seats Tories 303 & Lib-Dems 57 that totals =360.   Leaving the Labour party well short of stopping the Tories and there nasty policies, there is something else I did not realise until I was told about it the Irelands DUP party will also support the Tories in the HOC with there vile policies.

I am hoping that Ed Miliband gets his majority gov't without the help of SNP Greens or Plaid Cmyru, because all of them have ulteria motives SNP want to control Westminister by forcing the UK gov't to get rid of Trident and will also want another Independence referendum for all they know most Scots do not and all they will do is frive businesses out of Scotland Plaid have seen and felt the adoration the SNP get from 45% of Scots and want that too, only thing wrong with that is Wales does not have the business or the economy to go it alone.  

But they aren't just not opposing them. They are actively supporting them. Ed Balls is promising more of the same if he gets in. Labour are hopelessly following the dance lead by UKIP on immigration, and they shamelesslys upported Duncan Smith's disgusting 'emergency' workfare legislation.

In Miliband's own constituency there are careworkers on strike that he has refused to meet at every turn.

Not being able to effect change while in opposition, due to the system, is one thing (though I find that a poor excuse), but to sit back and not even speak out beggars belief. They have let the Tories dominate the discourse regarding the economy unchallenged for 5 years. It was plainly not Labour's fault that the economy tanked, the burden of proof is on the Tories to prove their claims - yet the Labour party have failed to challenge this rhetoric almost entirely. All they have now is a alughing stock in the red faced buffoon Ed Balls. Miliband is seen as weak - and he is. he is no socialist at all. Rachel Reeves has also pledged to be as tough as the tories on the welfare budget which can only mean one thing: more misery.

They are finished in Scotland as well.

There is no chance of a Labour majroity IMO. I just do not see it happening. I simply do not see anything positive coming from them in the long term. The only thing they have going is they are not the Tories. Really it is hobson's choice.