Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Just to prove what a liar I am, always “making things up as I go along”, I’ll add three more sources to the discussion, but no doubt that won’t convince the pig-headed amongst us:-
 
“The Beveridge Report proposed an allowance of eight shillings per week for all children (apart from for a family's first child if one parent was working), which graduated according to age. It was to be non-contributory and funded by general taxation. After some debate, the Family Allowances Bill was enacted in June 1945. The act provided for a flat rate payment funded directly from taxation. The recommended nine shillings a week was reduced to five shillings, and family allowance became a subsidy, rather than a subsistence payment as Beveridge had envisaged.”
 
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/themes/beveridge-report-child-benefit.htm
 
“Known as the Family Allowance, the 5 shillings a week payment was given to parents only for their second AND subsequent children, thus helping shore up the depleted population by encouraging more births. It continued through the post-war boom but was restructured when the economy turned down again, being reinvented as Child Benefit in the second half of the 1970s. The new payments were tax free and first-time mothers also became eligible.”
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8041636/Child-Benefit-history.html
 
“In the UK, child benefit is administered by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). The system was first implemented in August 1946 as ‘family allowances’ under the Family Allowances Act 1945, at a rate of 5s (= £0.25) per week per child in a family, except for the eldest. This was raised from September 1952, by the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1952, to 8s (= £0.40), and from October 1956, by the Family Allowances Act and National Insurance Act 1956, to 8s for the second child with 10s (= £0.50) for the third and subsequent children.

It was modified in 1977, with the payments being termed ‘child benefit’ and given for the eldest child as well as the younger ones; by 1979 it was worth £4 per child per week. In 1991, the system was further altered, with a higher payment now given for the first child than for their younger siblings.”
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

"I will raise the minimum wage"

Great, but where's the detail?

What about the welfare reforms that labour has supported that are killing people? Where is the policy addressuing that?

There's very very little there that has any real detail that is remotely progressive.

ghost whistler wrote:"I will raise the minimum wage"

Great, but where's the detail?

What about the welfare reforms that labour has supported that are killing people? Where is the policy addressuing that?

There's very very little there that has any real detail that is remotely progressive.

All That will be in there 2015 Manifesto which will come out within the next few weeks GW

Our family's budgerigar takes a keen interest in these discussions, and has said that there is a cuckoo in the nest.

Who's a pretty boy, then?

oftenwrong wrote:Our family's budgerigar takes a keen interest in these discussions, and has said that there is a cuckoo in the nest.

Who's a pretty boy, then?

What's that supposed to mean?

Whatever you want it to mean GW the cuckoo in the nest is Scam.. er ,, on and his bunch of Incompetents

This depressing article by Phil Hartup will probably appeal to our Miliband detractors:-

Why I keep holding my nose and voting Labour

"Looking back, it’s easy to see how Blair was such a winning candidate. He didn’t stand for anything specific other than not being a Tory, but that was enough for me. I could always look at Blair and tell myself that sure, he had the blood of people on him for his role in the Iraq invasion, but it wasn’t like the Tories wouldn’t have done the same. What Blair did bring was mitigating factors. The minimum wage, the increased public spending, reducing poverty, they took the edge off.

I like Ed Miliband, I like that he opposed bombing Syria and I like that he stood up to ‘The Daily Mail’ over its attacks on his father’s memory, two things that Blair would never have done. But I still don’t get a sense that he is here to change anything. We’ve seen the Tories at work in these last five years, dismantling and selling off anything of value within the British public sector like a well-connected crew of thieves. There’s no talk from Miliband about getting anything back. Instead there is the option of having the Tories in power to asset strip the country, or have Labour in power to enter a holding pattern.

So why do I keep holding my nose and voting for them? Fear, I guess. A holding pattern is better than a crash. When you’re hanging precariously above a safety net that could be hauled out from underneath you, the perspective changes. I don’t even know that Labour would keep the safety nets, but they’re a better shot than the other lot, so they get my vote. It’s not a decision I make with any particular pride."

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/why-i-keep-holding-my-nose-and-voting-labour

This was my response:-

Although Ed Miliband did appear on a picket line with Doncaster care workers, I wish that Labour would be more supportive of legitimate strike action, especially by firemen, NHS staff and teachers who have had their conditions of employment and pension arrangements changed arbitrarily. I think the party is still traumatised by the damage done to it – 18 years out of office - by what were largely myths about the so-called ‘winter of discontent’ of 1978-9.

No, Labour doesn’t do many of the things I’d like it to do, but why should it? I’m just one of the ten million plus people it needs to support it if it is to form the next government. A party which has to appeal to 35-40% of the population must be a compromise, a coalition within itself. It needs to resonate with its core vote, but also to those who thought in 2010 that the Lib Dems were left of centre, and to those who have been tempted more recently into thinking that UKIP might somehow represent the working class.

I will vote Labour because, although it won’t rule for the benefit solely of Ivan White, it will abolish the bedroom tax and bring in a mansion tax, it will repeal the Health and Social Care Act and it will end uncertainty over our membership of the EU. I will vote Labour because I dislike everything this Tory-dominated government of ideologues and liars has done, which has included abusing the human rights of the disabled. I will vote Labour because on 8 May either Ed Miliband will become PM or we will have another five years of ‘Dodgy Dave’ and his asset-stripping corporate cronies, and that’s a no-brainer.

Good answer, Ivan - I rather hope a Labour government, if it has the time, will be able to address some of the other issues that cause concern - rising use of foodbanks, England's sorry showing in foreign policy, but I think Miliband has the priorities right when he talks of the first-aid measures they will have to bring in immediately - later, once this measure of stability has been restored, there will be time perhaps to look at necessary larger scale changes

Great post Ivan and I agree with most of what you have said, a lot of people want Labour to re-nationalised gas electric and the trains and they are not just Labour party members or voters. As for wanting Labour to do a lot more Ivan I think Ed will if he gets a majority gov't, it is no good him promising this that and the other when he does not know if he can keep that promise.

Like yourself I will be voting Labour because if the Tories get in again NONE of our public services will be left including OUR NHS thanks to the Tories 2012 Health & Social Care Act because it allows 49% of our NHS to be doled out to the private health sector so when TTIP comes in to being through the EU.

boatlady wrote:Good answer, Ivan - I rather hope a Labour government, if it has the time, will be able to address some of the other issues that cause concern - rising use of foodbanks, England's sorry showing in foreign policy, but I think Miliband has the priorities right when he talks of the first-aid measures they will have to bring in immediately - later, once this measure of stability has been restored, there will be time perhaps to look at necessary larger scale changes

But they aren't addressing those issues. They are sacking councillors that do. I've told you this and you deny it.

They have said they are going to be tougher than the Tories. How do you do that without more cuts - and they have already resigned themselves to Osborne's bankrupt spending ideology.

They have supported the exploitation of the unemployed by this government. Why can't you see this?

‘The vast, vast majority’ of benefit claimants will have been moved to the government’s £2 billion universal credit scheme by 2017. Iain Duncan Smith

The DWP is right now at full stretch to set their proposals in parliamentary concrete before the Election, and the same ambition drives the Education Secretary, with the object of avoiding any reversals by incoming socialists.

Labour are not socialist anymore.

What is the Labour policy on TTIP?

boatlady wrote:Good answer, Ivan - I rather hope a Labour government, if it has the time, will be able to address some of the other issues that cause concern - rising use of foodbanks, England's sorry showing in foreign policy, but I think Miliband has the priorities right when he talks of the first-aid measures they will have to bring in immediately - later, once this measure of stability has been restored, there will be time perhaps to look at necessary larger scale changes

I agree boatlady about first aid been taught in schools, as long as there is a codicil attached to it so that any Obese Tory (Eric Pickles) must be left to pay for getting himself into that state as the Tories are very keen to do.

ghost whistler wrote:Labour are not socialist anymore.

What is the Labour policy on TTIP?

Search me, Guv.  I don't work here.  But try the link:

http://www.labourleft.co.uk/labour-and-the-transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership-ttip-by-labourlewis/

All that says is 'we have moved our position" from what to what?

Where is the concrete assurance from Ed that he will kick this awful thing into touch.

If TTIP goes through it will be cataclysmic.

You disagree then?

ghost whistler said: Where is the concrete assurance from Ed that he will kick this awful thing into touch.
If he gave a "concrete assurance", I very much doubt you would believe him anyway?

ghost whistler wrote:-
All that says is 'we have moved our position"......

I think it’s a little more than that – surely the crucial point is the last sentence?

At the party’s recent national policy forum in Milton Keynes (where the basis for the 2015 manifesto was agreed) the party reaffirmed NHS exclusion from TTIP but also went much further: “Labour believes that key to an EU US trade deal that we would encourage the rest of Europe to support, which avoids a race to the bottom and promotes decent jobs and growth would be safeguards and progress on labour, environmental and health and safety standards…..Labour believes that the right of governments to legislate for legitimate public policy objectives should be protected effectively in any dispute resolution mechanisms.”

http://www.labourleft.co.uk/labour-and-the-transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership-ttip-by-labourlewis/

A few months back Ivan Andy Burnham went to Brussels to make sure OUR NHS was kept out of the TTIP treaty because of the Tories 2012 NHS Act bill which leaves the NHS open up to 49% of our NHS would be able to be privatized without us been able to do a thing about it all thanks to the VILE Tories 2012 bill.

Ivan wrote:

ghost whistler wrote:-
All that says is 'we have moved our position"......

I think it’s a little more than that – surely the crucial point is the last sentence?

At the party’s recent national policy forum in Milton Keynes (where the basis for the 2015 manifesto was agreed) the party reaffirmed NHS exclusion from TTIP but also went much further: “Labour believes that key to an EU US trade deal that we would encourage the rest of Europe to support, which avoids a race to the bottom and promotes decent jobs and growth would be safeguards and progress on labour, environmental and health and safety standards…..Labour believes that the right of governments to legislate for legitimate public policy objectives should be protected effectively in any dispute resolution mechanisms.”

http://www.labourleft.co.uk/labour-and-the-transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership-ttip-by-labourlewis/

Again, what is their policy? Either they support it or they dont. So far they seem incapable of saying that.

Here's a thought - why don't you ask Ed Miliband?

Redflag wrote:A few months back Ivan Andy Burnham went to Brussels to make sure OUR NHS was kept out of the TTIP treaty because of the Tories 2012 NHS Act bill which leaves the NHS open up to 49% of our NHS would be able to be privatized without us been able to do a thing about it all thanks to the VILE Tories 2012 bill.

This excuse is pathetic.

If labour are really so piss poor as to not even be able to ideologically oppose the tories why vote for them; nothing will change!

It's the same situation as with the Royal Mail bonanza. The government gives away the RM and their city mates coin it in. Labour could have promised to renationalise it, putting a dampener on the whole mess. THey would not even do that. Useless corporate toady Chuka Umuna, another city spiv, would not do it. What's the point ffs? Why do you believe these people?

boatlady wrote:Here's a thought - why don't you ask Ed Miliband?

Yes he'll listen to individual people on twitter won't he, like he always does.

You're more likely to find out what he thinks asking him than by asking us - you can probably get his email address if you make the effort - why not email him and tell him how low your opinion is?

ghost whistler said: Yes he'll listen to individual people on twitter won't he, like he always does.

Some time ago, I sent Ed Miliband an e mail, after a short while he did reply. The problem now may be the nearness of the General Election whereby I doubt he will have the time, but it may be worth a try.

ed.miliband.mp@parliament.uk

http://edmiliband.org/.

Ed Miliband Campaign Office,
Room 502,
10 Greycoat Place, London
SW1P 1SB

Tel: 020 7960 6585

ghost whistler wrote:

Redflag wrote:A few months back Ivan Andy Burnham went to Brussels to make sure OUR NHS was kept out of the TTIP treaty because of the Tories 2012 NHS Act bill which leaves the NHS open up to 49% of our NHS would be able to be privatized without us been able to do a thing about it all thanks to the VILE Tories 2012 bill.

This excuse is pathetic.

If labour are really so piss poor as to not even be able to ideologically oppose the tories why vote for them; nothing will change!

It's the same situation as with the Royal Mail bonanza. The government gives away the RM and their city mates coin it in. Labour could have promised to renationalise it, putting a dampener on the whole mess. THey would not even do that. Useless corporate toady Chuka Umuna, another city spiv, would not do it. What's the point ffs? Why do you believe these people?

Like boatlady has said no one knows what Ed Miliband thinks about TTIP, what we do know is that Davy boy has opened up 49% of our NHS so their donors in the private health sector will be able to come in and mop up 49% of our NHS for peanuts, their donations are public knowledge we also know that Tory MPs have shares in the private health sector this is also public knowledge.  So I suggest you send Ed Miliband an e-mail and ask him what is his stance on TTIP if Ed does not get back to you someone within his office will reply on Eds behalf.

Your naivete surrounding Labour beggars belief.

I wonder, then, why you bother talking to us - maybe you need to seek out your intellectual equals?

I detest Tories and have nothing but contempt for UKIP. Without being a Labour supporter, I have sympathy for them and recognise that they are the only real alternative to five more years of misery for so many people.

But it is simply no good for Labour fans to assume that a nation which has suffered so badly since 2010 will automatically turn back to them. Labour has not done anything like enough to rid itself of the tainted reputation it had gained since 2008 - however unfair its critics were about the banking crisis. It has seemed to me that Ed Miliband has failed to overcome the problem he has in opposing without laying himself open to a pasting from Cameron about 'Labour's record' and , especially at this late stage, Labour still not dare to be too 'Socialist' for fear of frightening the horses.

Accordingly, anyone who suggests that Miliband and Co are less than perfect need to be convinced by rational argument and not be the subject of dismissive comments and implied disapproval over their doubts, or for daring to ask probing questions.

As it stands, I believe that by some form of devious manipulation or another - aided by the Daily Mail , The Sun and possibly UKIP etc. etc. - Cameron will remain Prime Minister. Undeserving though he and his band of reptiles are, Labour has probably not done enough to oust them and needs another five years to become worthy of, and fit for, power. By then, Cameron will not be able to hide his crimes and the new Labour leader's task will be a little easier. In any event, things will be so bad in 2015 -2020 that the Tories deserve to have to shoulder all the criticism which will come their way as sure as night follows day...

All perfectly possible, but in my view the Tory prospects of retaining power after the May election are by no means rosy.

Once the great unwashed either make the distinction between HMRC and HSBC, or decide they are two sides of the same coin, the Cameron Tories will share the fate of the Major Tories in 1997; brown-enveloped. In the next seven weeks I also expect the coalition partners to tear each other to pieces like any other separating couple and at the same time there is a sizeable cohort of Europhobic Tory MPs covertly supporting UKIP who may yet break ranks.

The Daily Mail even phoned Ed Balls' window-cleaners to find out if they gave him receipts for his cheque payments. So I'd say the Right-wing is in a bit of a panic.

Phil Hornby wrote:As it stands, I believe that by some form of devious manipulation or another - aided by the Daily Mail , The Sun and possibly UKIP etc. etc. - Cameron will remain Prime Minister. Undeserving though he and his band of reptiles are,  Labour has probably not done enough to oust them and needs another five years to become worthy of, and fit for, power. By then, Cameron will not be able to hide his crimes and the new Labour leader's task will be a little easier. In any event, things will be so bad  in 2015 -2020 that the Tories deserve to have to shoulder all the criticism which will come their way as sure as night follows day...

I don't know if that will be the case - I sincerely hope not becuase it doesn't bear thinking about,but I agree that Labour has gone out of its way to make itself unelectable. Ed Miliband may well be a nice guy (relatively speaking), and certainly he has, thanks to the predominantly right wing media, been give a harsh time of it, but he is utterly utterly hopeless. Labour simply has not done anywhere near enough to fight its corner and its ideology is really no different than the Tories. They are another party of neoliberal capitalism who believes the same principles. They might noe be quite as harsh as the Tories, but they are by no means the party they should be. Not even close. The fact they cannot come out and say "we oppose TTIP" beggars all belief. All they are doing is chasing the Tories for the 'squeezed middle' vote, which is why their rehetoric on welfare is a slightly softer version of the current thinking. FFS Rachel Reeves says she supports Universal Credit! How does anyone with half a brain think this harebrained scheme - which now includes sanctions for Housing Benefit claimants who are working - can possibly work?

oftenwrong wrote:In the next seven weeks I also expect the coalition partners to tear each other to pieces like any other separating couple and at the same time there is a sizeable cohort of Europhobic Tory MPs covertly supporting UKIP who may yet break ranks.

The Tories and Lib Dems won't come to blows at all. They are all the same. The Lib Dems have sat back and allowed all this shit to happen. They won't give up the golden ticket now.

ghost whistler wrote:The Tories and Lib Dems won't come to blows at all. They are all the same. The Lib Dems have sat back and allowed all this shit to happen. They won't give up the golden ticket now.

You think any of their MPs will survive?

ghost whistler wrote: Labour has gone out of its way to make itself unelectable.

The only ones that have made themselves unelectable are the VILE NASTY Tories with all their cuts to the sick disabled unemployed plus the sanctions TARGETS for JCP employees to carry out the Tories DIRTY WORK.    They will be made to pay for it especially IDS he is the Devils own, as for Labour been to blame for what happened in 2008 this is Tory RHETORIC SUCKER when the truth is it was the GREEDY BANKERS and Thatchers De-Regulation of the banks in 1986 that caused financial CRASH right across the entire world not just in the UK.

As for Labour renationalizing gas Electricity, & the railways where is Labour supposed to get the money to do this and keep within the Law, but I suppose that is you trying to get people to vote Ukip the second hand Tory party NO THANKS.  With the amount of people that the Tories have turned against them all of the public sector including all NHS staff all 1.4 Million on zero hour contracts that people have been told is a real job but still need benefits to try and make ends meet plus there is Millions of others that will not be voting Tory or Ukip get used to it GW you will have a Labour gov't in May 7th 2015.

So basically a Labour government won't do anything because...reasons?

And when you asked Ed Miliband, what did he say?

Why would I ask him anything? He's utterly hopeless; just look how easy the Tories make mincemeat out of him. FFS even Mylene Klass managed to embarass him! He just sat there looking like a pallid corpse, as he always does.

Another monied little career politician in love with fiat money, neoliberal capitalism and the christian work ethic.

Why would I ask him? Is he going to say any different than his minsters? Like Rachel Reeves who supports IDS' reforms and pledges to be even tougher? The so called jobs guarantee that's just workfare by another name? The party that supports fracking and abstained on a moratorium. The part that again censures its own councillors if they speak or act against austerity (they are all joining TUSC).

ghost whistler wrote:Why would I ask him anything? He's utterly hopeless; just look how easy the Tories make mincemeat out of him. FFS even Mylene Klass managed to embarass him! He just sat there looking like a pallid corpse, as he always does.

Another monied little career politician in love with fiat money, neoliberal capitalism and the christian work ethic.

Why would I ask him? Is he going to say any different than his minsters? Like Rachel Reeves who supports IDS' reforms and pledges to be even tougher? The so called jobs guarantee that's just workfare by another name? The party that supports fracking and abstained on a moratorium. The part that again censures its own councillors if they speak or act against austerity (they are all joining TUSC).

Not as hopeless as Farage and his bunch of hooligans & racists GW, then why did you ask what Ed Milibands thoughts on TTIP just to cause trouble because if you are trying to get us to change our vote to Ukip you have failed badly. Do not bother asking me any more questions because I do not intend to answe any more of your juvenile questions which are only to cause trouble

ghost whistler wrote:All that says is 'we have moved our position" from what to what?

Where is the concrete assurance from Ed that he will kick this awful thing into touch.

If TTIP goes through it will be cataclysmic.

Whether or not TTIP goes through will be down to the EU Commission which is been done behind closed doors with just a few people allowed to be in on the talks.

(Marlon Brando, The Wild One, 1953)

This movie appears to give the message that for most people who rebel, it’s just a pose without any purpose. When one of the women at the bar asks Brando what he’s rebelling against, he responds “What do you got?” These guys certainly have no motivation to rebel, other than the fact there’s something to rebel against.