What now for Labour? (Part 1)

First topic message reminder :

A post mortem

We lost. I feared the worst a few days ago when walking my dog. I met a left-wing man I’ve known for years who said that he was voting for the Peace Party. Someone of his persuasion was going to throw his vote down the drain instead of opting for the only party which could replace the Tories. That made me apprehensive about whether millions of anti-Tory voters would use their votes effectively. (The Peace Party came seventh in my constituency.) Worse was to follow when I logged in here. To read that a serious Tory hater couldn’t “become enthused by any party on offer” and chose not to vote for the only viable alternative to Cameron’s evil regime, was further evidence, albeit anecdotal, that the Labour campaign, despite having so many troops on the ground, was failing to motivate enough people to secure a victory.

About eleven million people in the UK (about 37% of those who voted) chose the Tories, and it resulted in them winning 331 of the 650 seats in Parliament, 12 more than all the other parties combined. In our so-called democracy, we have to respect their choice, even if it’s difficult to understand it. I’ve never come to terms with how anyone of modest means, or anyone with a social conscience, could ever vote Tory. I have a brief encounter with OCD whenever I go into a polling booth, checking what I’ve done on the ballot paper several times before I put it in the box.

What makes it even more difficult to understand now is that many people believed Cameron in 2010, he lied to them and has since broken a string of promises (which have been recorded elsewhere on this forum any number of times). He’s presided over the cruellest government in living memory, and yet so many people don’t seem to care. He’s stuffed the House of Lords with cronies, often after the Tories have received generous donations from them, and he's sold off state assets at knockdown prices, in the case of the Royal Mail enabling Osborne’s best man to make a fortune. He and his government have even been reprimanded several times for falsifying statistics.

The Tories often complain that the BBC is ‘left-wing’, which it isn’t, as a thread on this forum fully demonstrates; if anything it leans to the right these days, and it has always fawned over so-called ‘royalty’. But the Tories never complain about the rabid right-wing nature of most of the press, with even ‘The Independent’ giving them a tepid endorsement this week. That press, and programmes such as ‘HIGN4Y’ and ‘News Quiz’, have participated in the character assassination of Ed Miliband over a long period of time, gradually corroding his credibility, and dismissing him as “not being prime ministerial”. Whether he is we will never find out now, but does Cameron fit the bill? So often he’s shown himself to be an arrogant, bad-tempered, out-of-touch bully with a sense of entitlement. His behaviour on the day after the Scottish independence referendum incited the Scots and drove many of them from Labour into the arms of the SNP. In this campaign, he created fear of the SNP to scare many English voters towards the Tories. Had he been alive today, Machiavelli could have learned lessons from Cameron.

Ed Miliband sometimes looks awkward on television and isn’t very good at eating a bacon sandwich (who is?). But what does it say when the issue of choosing a potential prime minister is reduced to the level of a vote for ‘Britain’s Got Talent’ or ‘The X Factor’? Would Clement Attlee - in my opinion the greatest PM we’ve ever had - have won many votes for his celebrity status? Shouldn’t it be more important to choose between the bedroom tax and a mansion tax, and between democratically managed public services or private ones controlled by unaccountable corporations? Did those who voted Tory really want the ultimate destruction of the welfare state? Are they really so blasé about the possibility of becoming sick, unemployed or disabled one day? Instead of thinking about such issues, so many were distracted by the Tory charge that Miliband was ‘weak’, even though Cameron was too scared to debate head-to-head with him.

So it was rather like 1992 after all. No triumphalist Sheffield rally this time, just a silly stone monument, but the polls telling us that it was neck-and-neck and then the Tories winning easily. Three party leaders have resigned, but so should the pollsters. Electoral Calculus was claiming only yesterday that the chance of a Tory majority was just 4%. I don’t think I’ll ever bother to look at an opinion poll again; studying tea leaves is probably a more reliable guide to election outcomes.

Maybe the similarities with 1992 (which turned out to be a good election to lose) won’t end there. Five months after John Major lied his way back into office with scaremongering and promises of “tax cuts year on year”, Tory economic incompetence was there for all to see on ‘Black Wednesday’. His hapless government, riddled with sleaze and tearing itself apart over Europe, limped through five unhappy years, and we all know what happened next. So maybe 2020 will be like 1997, but five years is a long while to wait to find out, and sadly a lot of vulnerable people are going to suffer in the meantime.

oftenwrong wrote:Today's media are full of 31-year-old reminders of the Miners' Strike in Yorkshire.

Those who disregard the lessons of history are doomed to forever repeat them.

reminders?

You mean  reporting the ipcc's craven and political decision bit to investigate the behavior of the police at orgrrave?

Which medi, the right wing dominated media we have or some other media?

Questions to which an answer would not change anything seem to be a speciality of some correspondents.

The lesson of history is that the French Revolution delayed that Country's development as an industrial nation by about thirty years.
Which allowed Britain to double industrial output and global trade.

What about Iceland they let there banks go to the wall in 2008,now there economy is far better than the UKs or many of the European countries. I have been told if the UK had done that it would have caused all types of trouble now its the UK who is in all kinds of trouble with Austerity.

We need to tell all gov'ts of the UK if the bankers & hedge fund managers go down the same raod as they did in 2008, they can EFF OFFbecause we will not bail them out again.

Someone will correct me, but I understand that Iceland has no intention of ever compensating anyone for the money which might have been lost "investing" in Icelandic Banks that over-reached themselves.

Gordon Brown sensibly froze their assets in the UK, which helped some of the Local Authorities who had lodged rate-payers' money in three Icelandic banks, Kaupthing, Landsbanki and Glitnir.

Sorry OW I did not know that ordinary pple had lost there savings, I thought they had just sllowed the people with money (rich) to go to the wall along with the banks that is unfair to punish honest people which had trusted the banks with there money.

When the Tory gov't in 2010 was making the low paid disabled & vulnerable people of the UK to pay for the bankers misdeeds I did wish that Gordon Brown and Alister Darling had let the banks here in the UK go to the wall just like any other businesses that failed, but helping just those innocent people with there small amount of savings or there monthly wage paid into the banks never the less Iceland is now flourishing in regard to there economy.

I just hope who ever wins the Labour party leadership has just as vile a tongue on them for the Tories, already they have a name for Andy Burnham he is to be called the Butcher seen a leaflet on twitter, I would suppose they have names already for the rest of the candidates.

That was part of Ed Milibands problem with the voters they thought him weak because he would not stand up to Davy boy and give him it back in kind, there is a time to be a gentleman but Davy boy and the Tories where asking for Ed to snarl back at him and that is why the voters did not give there respect and vote to ED.

That is not the entire reason for Labour to lose the 2015 G.E but it is part of it, so I just hope the Labour party gets behind who ever wins and gives them the help they will need to bat the Tory insults and smears back at the Tories.

Mary Creagh has withdrawn from the leadership contest, leaving us with four candidates. Nominations close on 15 June. Andy Burnham (66), Yvette Cooper (56) and Liz Kendall (40) have all secured more than the required 35 nominations to get on the ballot paper. Jeremy Corbyn (18) has not.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/list-mps-endorsements-labour-leadership-candidates

Ivan wrote:,,,, candidates Andy Burnham (66), Yvette Cooper (56) and Liz Kendall (40) have all secured more than the required 35 nominations to get on the ballot paper.

The media will now gleefully point out for us that none of the nominees have commercial experience outside the field of Politics, a criticism frequently levelled at the previous Leader, Ed Miliband.

Ivan wrote:Mary Creagh has withdrawn from the leadership contest, leaving us with four candidates. Nominations close on 15 June. Andy Burnham (66), Yvette Cooper (56) and Liz Kendall (40) have all secured more than the required 35 nominations to get on the ballot paper. Jeremy Corbyn (18) has not.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/list-mps-endorsements-labour-leadership-candidates

and she wants labor to day more accommodating to business!

How much more evidence do you need that labor has lost the plot?

Redflag wrote:I just hope who ever wins the Labour party leadership has just as vile a tongue on them for the Tories, already they have a name for Andy Burnham  he is to be called the Butcher seen a leaflet on twitter, I would suppose they have names already for the rest of the candidates.

That was part of Ed Milibands problem with the voters they thought him weak because he would not stand up to Davy boy and give him it back in kind, there is a time to be a gentleman but Davy boy and the Tories where asking for Ed to snarl back at him and that is why the voters did not give there respect and vote to ED.

That is not the entire reason for Labour to lose the 2015 G.E but it is part of it, so I just hope the Labour party gets behind who ever wins and  gives them the help they will need to bat the Tory insults and smears back at the Tories.

bit he didn't stand up to then, did he? Quite the opposite he explicitly opened the for for them.

If you had read my post PROPERLY & FULLY GW, you will see I did say that Ed had not returned the insults or the smears of the Tory party, most people on this forum think that Davy boy behaved like some one with a bad case of the "TERRIBLE TWOs" (ie behaving no better than kids in nursery school).     When in reality the whole Tory party have shown how low they will stoop  to stay in power so that B(W)ankers Hedge Fund managers & big Corporations make more profit off the backs of the 99% the UK people, telling BLATANT LIES  and trying to blacken the family members, I just wonder what they would say if they got a GOOD DOSE of there own medicine I KBOW SCREAM LIKE PIGS.

I would read you last post and see  that it makes no sense (yes the one line you used to reply to my post, I do mot think that you have been or will ever be a Labour voter because nothing the Labour party has done for the UK you disagree with ie minimum wage NHS Welfare state so never in the creation of crows SHYTE are you a Labour voter and your post have proved this time after time .

I would read you last post and see  that it makes no sense

A lot of messages would make a lot more sense if several posters would read through what they've written and correct the typos before clicking on 'send'.  

What now for Labour? In reply to the email which Andy Burnham sent to all members, I wrote that our priorities should be:-
1. To offer a cast-iron guarantee to introduce PR without a referendum, and to ask supporters of parties which agree (that's everyone except the Tories) to 'lend' us their votes to ensure that it happens.
2. To rectify the fact that the UK, the sixth richest country in the world, is also one of the most unequal. In the long term that isn't good for anyone, rich or poor.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t709-does-inequality-matter

The Tories have moved further and further to the right since Thatcher became their leader in 1975. Labour should not follow them, and that's why Liz Kendall in particular is so unsuitable for the top job.

Plans for reviving the Labour Party after two successive election defeats carry a slight whiff of that terrible Irish joke with the punchline, ".. but you can't get there from here!"

I see the Labour-supporting Mirror newspaper has showed its true colours, much like the party itself, with a hideous attack on a couple on benefits getting married.

Redflag wrote:If you had read my post PROPERLY & FULLY GW, you will see I did say that Ed had not returned the insults or the smears of the Tory party, most people on this forum think that Davy boy behaved like some one with a bad case of the "TERRIBLE TWOs" (ie behaving no better than kids in nursery school).     When in reality the whole Tory party have shown how low they will stoop  to stay in power so that B(W)ankers Hedge Fund managers & big Corporations make more profit off the backs of the 99% the UK people, telling BLATANT LIES  and trying to blacken the family members, I just wonder what they would say if they got a GOOD DOSE of there own medicine I KBOW SCREAM LIKE PIGS.

I would read you last post and see  that it makes no sense (yes the one line you used to reply to my post, I do mot think that you have been or will ever be a Labour voter because nothing the Labour party has done for the UK you disagree with ie minimum wage NHS Welfare state so never in the creation of crows SHYTE are you a Labour voter and your post have proved this time after time .

Miliband was just another red tory happy to slag off claimants, happy to pursue the corporate line, happy, in the end, to roll over and let the Tories win. He didn't want power. He was not fit to be PM and he knew it. He threw the election.

It blows my mind how you can continue sticking your head so far in the sand. What's the weather like in Australia? Sunny is it?

Ivan wrote:Mary Creagh has withdrawn from the leadership contest, leaving us with four candidates. Nominations close on 15 June. Andy Burnham (66), Yvette Cooper (56) and Liz Kendall (40) have all secured more than the required 35 nominations to get on the ballot paper. Jeremy Corbyn (18) has not.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/list-mps-endorsements-labour-leadership-candidates

The same Mary Creagh who thinks Labour needs to cosy up MORE to big business.

FFS. How much more of this crap are you people going to take?

I rather think that would be up to us and not you...

Claudine wrote:I rather think that would be up to us and not you...

yes, that's why I asked.

I don't know how much more evidence you need of labours capitulation to right wing thinking and its total abandonment of the working class. How can anyone seriously think they are represented by labor anymore?

Jeremy corbyn is standing for leadership but he went even make the short list. The party didn't want someone like him leading. He hasn't a chance.

Give it up.

ghost whistler wrote:-
Jeremy corbyn is standing for leadership but he went even make the short list.

Did you mean to say “won’t”? If so, you got that wrong, since Jeremy Corbyn has now secured enough nominations to get on the ballot paper.

We won’t give up, because we know that the only alternative to a Tory or Tory-led government is a Labour or Labour-led one. Feel free to demonstrate or practise civil disobedience, but such actions are just used by the right-wing propagandists to reinforce prejudices against what they call "the great unwashed". We had riots in 1981, 1985, 1990 and 2011, but they didn’t get rid of the Tories who, on each occasion, went on to win the next general election.

Unless conditions ever deteriorate to the level of France in 1789 (where bread prices had doubled in two years), or Russia in 1917 (where ice on railway lines prevented food supplies from getting through), there won’t be a revolution here, and if there was one the global corporate overlords would soon strangle it. The reality is that the only alternative to the Tories in the UK is the main opposition party. For all its many faults, that’s the Labour Party, and if it had won the recent election the bedroom tax would now have been consigned to the dustbin of history.

It will of course be an absurdity if party members decide that the way for Labour to reconnect with its working class roots is to vote for a pale imitation Tory such as Liz Kendall. No doubt you see all the leadership candidates in the same way, but there are significant differences if you can be bothered to take a closer look. And now we have Jeremy Corbyn in the contest, which means that at least left-wing views will get a decent airing in the next three months, as indeed they should.

ghost whistler wrote:Miliband was just another red tory happy to slag off claimants, happy to pursue the corporate line, happy, in the end, to roll over and let the Tories win. He didn't want power. He was not fit to be PM and he knew it. He threw the election.

It blows my mind how you can continue sticking your head so far in the sand. What's the weather like in Australia? Sunny is it?

Ed Miliband was no RED Tory GW, with doing away with the bedroom tax putting the high rate of tax back up to 50p which the Tories and put DOWN to 45p, & making sure the Nom-Doms paid there correctamount of tax.   If these policies are right wing I do not see the Tories bringing them in EVER, the only one that is sticking there head in the sand is yourself coming on to this forum hoping to get the people to vote Tory "YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR TINY MIND"     So if you do not mind I do not want to hear your Tory Tripe because you are wasting your time on me so do the prverbally and **** OFF

Ivan wrote:The reality is that the only alternative to the Tories in the UK is the main opposition party. For all its many faults, that’s the Labour Party, and if it had won the recent election the bedroom tax would now have been consigned to the dustbin of history.

Labour isn't an opposition party. I don't understand how you think they are.

I don't know what it will take to wake people up out of the collective trance they seem to be living under as regards the Tories, but believing that Labour who are already in bed with the right wing capitalist agenda of austerity (i've already mentioned people like Robin Wales, someting you lot continue to ignore).

Labour are on the front line making cuts. It's already happening. They are not opposing anything.

Redflag wrote:Ed Miliband was no RED Tory GW, with doing away with the bedroom tax putting the high rate of tax back up to 50p which the Tories and put DOWN to 45p, & making sure the Nom-Doms paid there correctamount of tax.   If these policies are right wing I do not see the Tories bringing them in EVER, the only one that is sticking there head in the sand is yourself coming on to this forum hoping to get the people to vote Tory "YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR TINY MIND"     So if you do not mind I do not want to hear your Tory Tripe because you are wasting your time on me so do the prverbally and **** OFF

Miliband refused to enter into any meeting with Nicola Sturgoen saying that he would rather not be PM at all.

If that isn't capitulation, I don't know what is.

I don't know waht you think the Labour party are going to do, but I can assure you they are not interested in reversing austerity. Putting tax up by 5p is a drop in the ocean. This is pathetic, it really is.

If that's the best you can come up with then you are beyond hope. But then you seem to think that giving a damn about welfare and arguing for a complete removal of the capitalist system is somehow tory. I must conclude you live in Bizarroland.

Redflag. Please don’t be rude to ghost whistler, who is entitled to his opinions even if we don’t agree with many of them. There is no way that he is a Tory, and he has never said anything in support of the 'nasty party'. The Tories may take the view that “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”, but that’s not quite the same thing.

34% of the electorate didn’t bother to vote last month (9% more than the percentage who voted Tory), either through feeling alienated from the system (I know two people who, despite my best efforts, have never voted in their lives), religious convictions (Jehovah’s Witnesses are a prime example), a dislike for everything on offer, or just a feeling that our so-called democracy is broken and we always end up with a neoliberal government blessed by Rupert Murdoch. As Mark Twain wrote: “If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let us do it”.

Opinions are like belly-buttons - everybody's got one.

ghost whistler wrote:I don't know how much more evidence you need of labours capitulation to right wing thinking and its total abandonment of the working class. How can anyone seriously think they are represented by labor anymore?

Jeremy corbyn is standing for leadership but he went even make the short list. The party didn't want someone like him leading. He hasn't a chance.

Give it up.

My mother has always said that even as a child, I hated being told what to do. That hasn't changed. I also despise being told what to think. I like to think that I'm of reasonable intelligence, so why don't we agree on one thing? I promise that I won't verbalize how objectionable I find your opinions and you won't tell me how to think. I think that's reasonable, don't you?

If you want to verbalise your objections then do so.

That's how discussion works.

Otherwise this is just an echo chamber that supports, blindly it seems, a party that has long since turned its back on people like you.

They are just the same as the tories; the same westminster elite, professional rentiers, corporate apologists as they have been for the past 20 years. This is self evident and wishing it were different will not make it so anymore than objecting to my pointing this out will.

I don't know how much more evidence you'd need of this. Where in their manifesto were pledges to raise benefits to a liveable level, to scrap the WCA which is killing people (a guy had his WCA stopped mid way through because he had a heart attack, consequently he failed and had his benefit stopped), to raise the minimum wage to at least £10 a hour - not £8 in 5 years time, to nationalise utilities and protect public services?

Ivan wrote:Redflag. Please don’t be rude to ghost whistler, who is entitled to his opinions even if we don’t agree with many of them. There is no way that he is a Tory, and he has never said anything in support of the 'nasty party'. The Tories may take the view that “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”, but that’s not quite the same thing.

IVAN I do not mind people having there own opinion, what gets up my nose is people copying the Tories and telling LIES about Ed Miliband and the Labour party.    For some time now GWs posts have contained whinging and untruths about the Labour party and when I put my opinions forward I get accused of putting my head in the sand , when in reality its GW who has there head in the sand and does not remember the Labour policies which the rich & famous did not like because Ed would have charged them a bit more on there tax bill as they are the ones that can afford to pay a bit mor.

GW - no-one objects to you pointing anything out - trying to force your opinions on others is something a bit different.

I think we all know what you think by now - maybe time to listen to others - until you have anything positive to contribute, when we will all be interested to hear what you think I'm sure.

A few random thoughts after reading the recent posts…..

This thread is about where Labour goes from here, not whether members of this forum should or should not “give up” on it. We have leadership and deputy leadership elections which will start the process of rebuilding the party, but whatever direction it takes, it risks losing the support of some in the search for the support of others. Move to the left and many of the middle class will shy away, move to the right and people will say “they’re all the same” and many of the working class will opt for UKIP.

However, the prophets of doom should be ignored, Labour will bounce back. The Tories failed to get 200 MPs in three successive elections, but now they have a majority again. But it’s only by 12 seats. I know they intend to gerrymander the boundaries to load things even more in their favour, but under the present arrangement they only need to lose 6 seats to lose their majority, and they’re already starting to fight over the EU, just as they did under John Major.

I’m not sure why anyone should think that the Labour leadership contenders need “commercial experience”. Running the country to provide services for all is not the same as running a company solely for the purpose of making a profit. It helps if the chancellor knows something about economics (as both Yvette Cooper and her husband do), but the only commercial experience of the present holder of that office is folding towels in Selfridge’s for one week (I believe they ‘let him go’ after that). Cameron’s experience as a PR man at Carlton TV wasn’t exactly a great success, the company closed down.

We can disagree with each other as much as we like – that’s what makes a forum interesting – but no swearing, please! And when you have a discussion with several people, I very much doubt if you quote back at all of them everything which each of them has said recently before you answer. Similarly, it isn't necessary to do that when discussing an issue on a thread. Some members insist on quoting everything which was in the previous message; if we all did that, each new post would be as long as the entire thread. We really don’t need to keep reading the same messages over and over again, and when there are multiple quotes it sometimes becomes confusing as to who exactly said what.

boatlady wrote:GW - no-one objects to you pointing anything out - trying to force your opinions on others is something a bit different.

I think we all know what you think by now - maybe time to listen to others - until you have anything positive to contribute, when we will all be interested to hear what you think I'm sure.

What do I need to listen to?

THere are not two sides to every story; this isn't a debate where both sides are equal. This is about the facts, and the facts are clear: Labour has betrayed it's core supporters and has no intention of returning to them.

Ivan wrote:A few random thoughts after reading the recent posts…..

This thread is about where Labour goes from here,

We can see where Labour is going. It's not a secret they are keeping. They are beholden to the politics of the right wing media and the capitalist system. They are not interested in social justice, welfare, the NHS, or any of the things that should matter. The Tories wouldn't have been able to do so much over the last five years if the policies weren't already in place. It was Labour who brought an unelected banker in to 'reform' welfare, they created the WCA and ESA, they changed the rules on claimants getting a fair hearing if their claim is called in to question, they started a war in the middle east, and they are as much in bed with the private rental sector that is going crazy in London. Half of them have property portfolios - including Michael Meacher who likes to pretend he gives a damn.

Ivan wrote:....
I’m not sure why anyone should think that the Labour leadership contenders need “commercial experience”....

QUOTE: "In the old days most MPs had been in the military, done National Service or risen through the ranks from the shop floor to become shop stewards before moving into politics. These were people with deep experience of life outside the bubble of Westminster or European politics, and they brought this experience to bear on legislation and government policy."

The Pickford Papers
https://pickfordpapers.wordpress.com/2014/07/
http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/real-politicians-ones-worked-living-MPs/story-21666578-detail/story.html

ghost whistler wrote:

Ivan wrote:A few random thoughts after reading the recent posts…..

This thread is about where Labour goes from here,

they started a war in the middle east,

A little disingenuous perhaps as it seemed to be opposed by at least a quarter of labour MP's and was voted for by a cross section of MP's. Though the Labour cabinet were largely behind it, with some notable exceptions of course.

Tony Blair tonight suffered the biggest Commons revolt of his premiership as 199 MPs rejected his course of action over Iraq.
A much higher than expected 121 Labour MPs broke a three-line whip to voice their concern that the case for military intervention was "as yet unproven". LINK

The Prime Minister has the power to declare war, as an exercise of the Royal Prerogative, without the approval of Parliament. Before or after the start of previous wars, there had normally been debate in Parliament; however for the first time a vote was held, apparently allowing Parliament to block the declaration of war, even though it was, "purely symbolic" and "not binding on the government." The debate was held on 18 March 2003, and lasted from midday to 10 pm, at which time the two Parliamentary votes were held. The Labour and Conservative parties – the two largest parties – were both committed to approving the invasion, although a quarter of the Labour party rebelled and voted against the invasion. The Liberal Democrats, who had one in twelve of the MPs in parliament, also opposed the invasion.

Not disingenuous at all; it was a Labour government and a Labour PM that sent us into not one but two disastrous wars the effect of which has been the complete destabilisation of the middle east and the rise of IS. Not to mention that Labour, like the rest of Westminster, are in bed with the fascist rogue state of Israel.

Yet you ignore all the other issues I rasied, why?

ghost whistler wrote:Not disingenuous at all; it was a Labour government and a Labour PM that sent us into not one but two disastrous wars the effect of which has been the complete destabilisation of the middle east and the rise of IS. Not to mention that Labour, like the rest of Westminster, are in bed with the fascist rogue state of Israel.

Yet you ignore all the other issues I rasied, why?

It is disingenuous because you're ignoring the other political parties that voted in favour of war, and you're ignoring that a quarter of Labour MP's voted against it. I chose to comment on this issue because I felt your claim was disingenuous. A repetition of it doesn't make it less so. The other issues had no direct bearing on my point.

So welfare isn't as important as trying to argue in support of a labor government taking us to war?

It didn't matter that less than100% of the party supported it.

Dr Sheldon GW is always Disingenuous to the Labour party you need to take a look at other posts on different threads on this forum, it has made me think that he/she is more Tory than the Tories.

As this thread seems to be developing rhetorical questions as its theme, is there anything on God's earth that pleases you, Mr. Whistler?

Just askin'

ghost whistler wrote:So welfare isn't as important as trying to argue in support of a labor government taking us to war?

If you say so, though I would disagree.  I also never showed support for Labour on any issue, I merely commented that your claim was biased and therfore disingenuous, but I can see you're not interested in addressing my points and are just spoiling for a fight by misrepresenting what I've said with two more disingenuous claims.

I made no comment on this issues importance over any others, you have simply made that up and it's a falsehood.

I haven't offered support over Labour on the Iraq war. I disagreed then, and do so now. So again your claim is false.

I pointed out that almost a quarter of Labour MP's voted against it. Whereas other political parties voted in favour.

Perhaps you could try addressing my points instead of making subjective assumptions about my motives.

Reminder: Programme on BBC2 TV today at 7.00 pm:

Newsnight: Labour Leaders

Laura Kuenssberg eyes up the runners and riders in the Labour leadership contest.

and afterwards on BBC i-player (for UK viewers)

Thanks, OW