What now for Labour? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Phil Hornby wrote:I feel that Corbyn is sincere, polite, interesting and likeable - so are my neighbours but, like them, he isn't electable as Prime Minister.

In which case, why should we pay some phoney twicer to be something else?

Yet again labour disgraces itself.

18 of them can be bothered to fight for Caroline Lucas's NHS restoration bill.

What more proof do you people need?

And the alternative?
Given that most of us won't go as far as a revolution?

That is the alternative.

Perhaps you have a better idea, if so I'm all ears.

Just don't pretend labor give a damn

It would have at least helped to draw attention to the creeping privatisation of the NHS if more members of the Labour Party had been in the House of Commons for the second reading of Caroline Lucas’s private member’s bill last Friday. However, until the parliamentary laws are changed (and they certainly won’t be by the current regime), private members’ bills have almost no chance of becoming law unless backed by the government, and this bill was talked out by a filibuster by some Tory MPs. As Friday is the day when MPs traditionally return to their constituencies and hold ‘surgeries’, the number of them who stay in Westminster to take part in these debates (which are invariably doomed to fail) is always limited.

Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell were two of the backers of Caroline Lucas’s bill. It’s widely known that the majority of Labour MPs didn’t back Corbyn for leader and still don’t, and that’s an issue which the party must resolve. We now have Dan Jarvis saying that MPs are only accountable to their constituents, conveniently ignoring the fact that they wouldn’t get a chance to stand for election if they weren’t chosen by local party members, those foot soldiers who canvass and deliver leaflets for them.

Only 18 of those Labour MPs were in Parliament last Friday, but that’s hardly a reason to write off Jeremy Corbyn after just six months. He still attracts large audiences, has presided over a massive increase in party membership, and has clearly given a lot of people hope for something different from the neoliberal consensus that has prevailed since 1979.

I'm not writing off Corbyn, His own party is.

He will not survive. They will make sure of that.

ghost whistler wrote:I'm not writing off Corbyn, His own party is. He will not survive....

Bad luck on Cameron then, he'll have to find someone else to bully at PMQs.

oftenwrong wrote:Bad luck on Cameron then, he'll have to find someone else to bully at PMQs.

I don't support Cameron

Not a lot of people know that, I dare say.

oftenwrong wrote:Not a lot of people know that, I dare say.

I've no idea what that means, but do please continue defending a party of austerity pushing self destructive capitalist idiots.

ghost whistler wrote:......do please continue defending a party of austerity pushing self destructive capitalist idiots.

Many of us, I reckon, are against what you are against.    The problem, though, is to mobilise people to stop it, and simply criticising Blairites and such doesn't cut it, I think.

Good point Penderyn.
I'm not aware of any of the current contributors that think what is happening in government at present is OK or even tolerable - knowing what you're against is the easy bit - agreeing what you're for and how to get it is where the negotiation comes in - and I never took part in any negotiation where shouting at the other party achieved a happy outcome for anyone

Penderyn wrote:- " The problem, though, is to mobilise people to stop it"

Exactly!!!!! The fickle Tory propaganda riddled so called "electorate" along with te UKIPERS of no hope of power and yet purely for anti immigration concerns (perhaps understanbly in many cases) took votes from Labour at the last election. To exacerbate this situation the Scots hell bent on having their desired independance selfishly voted SNP. ALL of that lot put this lot in by the back door. Even raving Dave was clearly seen to be shocked at getting in yet again. NOW WE ARE WELL AND TRULY LUMBERED WITH THESE TORY TYRANTS.
Will the weak trampled on British public continue to take all that is thrown at them for the next 4yrs? Answer yes yes, as long as they can just about survive on cheap labour jobs that they are so so grateful to get IF THEY CAN!!! They will continue to line the pockets of the rich without complaint. Nothing can be done for them and their fellow beings until the next election where we HOPE they have learned a very hard lesson indeed. DOUBT IT THOUGH!!!! No faith left in the weak, who not only do not stand up to this government, but are so thick and brainwashed are very likely to put the devils back in yet again. They never learn.

Penderyn wrote:Many of us, I reckon, are against what you are against.    The problem, though, is to mobilise people to stop it, and simply criticising Blairites and such doesn't cut it, I think.

Are you?

If you were, why would you support a party that isn't against these things.

I'm not saying people should simply criticise Blairites. I'm saying that people need to engage in revolutionary activity; at the very least they need to engage in direct action to take back the power from the government where it doesn't belong.

ghost whistler wrote: .... I'm saying that people need to engage in revolutionary activity....

What kind of revolutionary activity do you have in mind? Is there a difference between your own intentions and exhortations to others who might follow your advice? Essentially, are you perhaps what might be called an "Armchair Revolutionary"?

Simon Wood writes:-

“Hundreds of innocent people will be killed or injured, and the violence will provide the authoritarians in power with the perfect excuse for ever more draconian powers over privacy and freedom, all cheered on by establishment stooges throughout the media and a sizeable portion of the population, deceived via blanket media coverage of violent scenes involving protesters into believing such measures are in their interest: namely, for their protection.

Revolutions in the traditional mould are doomed to fail because even a completely new group of people in power will always be constrained by external entities of control like powerful nation states, the IMF and the World Bank. If a nation is in debt, the new rulers will remain subordinate to the global financial system at the expense of the welfare of their own citizens.”

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t955-you-say-you-want-a-revolution

oftenwrong wrote:What kind of revolutionary activity do you have in mind?  Is there a difference between your own intentions and exhortations to others who might follow your advice?  Essentially, are you perhaps what might be called an "Armchair Revolutionary"?

Whatever it takes to remove an undemocratic unjust authoritarian and cruel government that has murdered citizens and contributed to global instability and economic injustice.

It's either that or capitulation. What is your preference?

Ivan wrote:Simon Wood writes:-

“Hundreds of innocent people will be killed or injured, and the violence will provide the authoritarians in power with the perfect excuse for ever more draconian powers over privacy and freedom, all cheered on by establishment stooges throughout the media and a sizeable portion of the population, deceived via blanket media coverage of violent scenes involving protesters into believing such measures are in their interest: namely, for their protection.

Revolutions in the traditional mould are doomed to fail because even a completely new group of people in power will always be constrained by external entities of control like powerful nation states, the IMF and the World Bank. If a nation is in debt, the new rulers will remain subordinate to the global financial system at the expense of the welfare of their own citizens.”

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t955-you-say-you-want-a-revolution

Anything is doomed to fail if the will is there to make it so.

I don't recall advocating violence unless it is absolutely necessary.

Gost Whistler, I like your determined attitude. Perhaps you could start the ball rolling by getting on a soap box in Hyde Park soon.
I'm sure many will listen and follow you. I for one would follow you starting with one demonstration after another. It's been done before so why not now?

i'm not asking for a demonstration.

No? You said "whatever it takes" did you not Ghost?

How many demonstrations have there been since 2010? How many times have we heard the same tired rhetoric from the unions, who then sit back and do nothing (they don't support the junior doctors for instance, except the BMA)? How many times have the likes of Diane Abbot or the hapless John McDonnell received rapturous applause that lead to nothing but temporary pacification of the people? What has any of this achieved other than to placate the masses in the eyes of the Tories and fool people into believing that if they just wait till 2020 that nice Mr Corbyn will take over and fix everything. All the while Labour councillors vote in favour of cuts and Labour party members and MP's resign in public at the behest of the BBC all the while seeking only to embarass their new leader and make more excuses for capitalism.

By all means, continue to sniff and sneer. All you are doing is deluding yourself. But if that's the choice you make, to support a proposition that is not working and provides no alternative, that's your choice.

Just stop pretending you think you know better than I, or that I haven't given you the alternative. The only one that will effect actual change.

ghost whistler wrote:I'm not saying people should simply criticise Blairites. I'm saying that people need to engage in revolutionary activity; at the very least they need to engage in direct action to take back the power from the government where it doesn't belong.

The question is, can you change the Party into a fighting organisation, and I think you can.    And when the Party has been that, there has always been direct action and a strong Left outside it, driving the struggle on - we can afford purism on the Left if we are a party of working people, but if they set up on their own entirely they are, I think, toast, and we hot air.

Too much hot air from everywhere Penderyn unfortunately. It is the confused and couldn't care less members of society (if there is such a thing left after Thatcher's doctrine) that we end up with the majority being screwed by a heartless Tory administration. People are putting up with this lot because they have no idea how to rid themselves of the tyrants. The Labour party and the unions are the only hope but are divided, fearing too far left attitudes or Blairite attitudes will lose them another election. The problem is they do neither and therefore they are getting nowhere and the public are left even more confused.

Penderyn wrote:The question is, can you change the Party into a fighting organisation, and I think you can.    And when the Party has been that, there has always been direct action and a strong Left outside it, driving the struggle on - we can afford purism on the Left if we are a party of working people, but if they set up on their own entirely they are, I think, toast, and we hot air.

Labour was in power for 13 years and didn't change.

It's been out of power since 2010 and lost an election it should have won given how piss poor and unpopular the coalition was.

It failed. From the outset it chose a hopeless leader who threw the election because he was too afraid of his own shadow, let alone standing up to the right wing media. He was just another capitalist; they all are.

You can pretend that the Labour party can change, or can be changed. You can engage in all the wishful thinking you like, but it won't achieve anything. Corbyn is a lame duck in the party. Yes he's a nice guy, even a decent one, but the party doesn't want him. Look at how he's been treated: the unprecedented shameless spectacle of resignations live, the appalling display by hilary benn, the shamelessness of his backbenchers as well as his own councillors voting for austerity. He hasn't a chance of surviving to the next election.

I'm afraid there is no hope in believing you can change the party. There is no point in even trying, and more to the point, why would you?

While Blair was in power, what forces were making for change?   The election of Mr Corbyn seems to me quite a lot of straw in the wind, and the class war waged by the tories grows daily more intense,  moving people either to despair or fight.    What I'd be asking is whether the revolutionary left, in the current condition, can move other than to a sort of mini-bureaucracy (my own view of the current SWP leadership, not based on much present experience) or something drifting towards gesture politics/terrorism.    In the Labour Party, it seems to me, things are moving, in which case that is the place to be.

ghost whistler wrote:
....Labour was in power for 13 years and didn't change.

You can pretend that the Labour party can change, or can be changed. You can engage in all the wishful thinking you like, but it won't achieve anything. Corbyn is a lame duck in the party. Yes he's a nice guy, even a decent one, but the party doesn't want him. Look at how he's been treated: the unprecedented shameless spectacle of resignations live, the appalling display by hilary benn, the shamelessness of his backbenchers as well as his own councillors voting for austerity. He hasn't a chance of surviving to the next election.

I'm afraid there is no hope in believing you can change the party. There is no point in even trying, and more to the point, why would you?

Just pull the bedclothes back over yer head.

The election of Mr Corbyn seems to me quite a lot of straw in the wind

Yes - I think your comment makes a lot of sense - I voted for Corbyn because it seemed to me that 'politics as usual' as represented by the other candidates was only going to perpetuate the usual neo liberal agenda.
As members, we can contribute to changing the dialogue and challenging the neo-liberal consensus that currently serves only the wealthy and prosperous minority

Penderyn wrote:While Blair was in power, what forces were making for change?   The election of Mr Corbyn seems to me quite a lot of straw in the wind, and the class war waged by the tories grows daily more intense,  moving people either to despair or fight.    What I'd be asking is whether the revolutionary left, in the current condition, can move other than to a sort of mini-bureaucracy (my own view of the current SWP leadership, not based on much present experience) or something drifting towards gesture politics/terrorism.    In the Labour Party, it seems to me, things are moving, in which case that is the place to be.

I'm not interested in the left wing of capital.

I'm not interested in authoritarian movements.

I am interested in direct action.

Nothing is moving in the Labour party. Momentum is doing nothing but shutting down anyone who dares to question the Labour party with their cultesque reverence of Corbyn. Consequently membership and interest is dwindling. THese idiots are killing their own party. Meanwhile the right wing of the party continue sharpening the knives. Anyone that thinks Corbyn has a chance is deluding themselves.

oftenwrong wrote:Just pull the bedclothes back over yer head.

That's the spirit; keep your head down and do nothing to actually effect any real change. Just keep pretending that everything will be ok in 2020. Meanwhile people are suffering, something that obviously bothers you less than my call for the only kind of change that will matter.

You're the problem.

boatlady wrote:As members, we can contribute to changing the dialogue and challenging the neo-liberal consensus that currently serves only the wealthy and prosperous minority

and how's that working out for you?

what are labour actually doing other than letting the tories frame the discourse?

GW - you seem to be a nihilist. You appear to have a well-established view of what is wrong (everything) but very little vision of how it could become right.
How's that working out for you?

ghost whistler wrote:Nothing is moving in the Labour party. Momentum is doing nothing but shutting down anyone who dares to question the Labour party with their cultesque reverence of Corbyn. Consequently membership and interest is dwindling. THese idiots are killing their own party. Meanwhile the right wing of the party continue sharpening the knives. Anyone that thinks Corbyn has a chance is deluding themselves.

 You are stuck with 'either/or', which is counter-productive.   You are a bit hopeful if you see direct action, under current conditions, as achieving much without serious political support.  Our job is to get the great mass of working people moving, not fighting one another while the tories crush us down.

boatlady wrote:GW - you seem to be a nihilist. You appear to have a well-established view of what is wrong (everything) but very little vision of how it could become right.
How's that working out for you?

If you think that then it's clear you've ignored everyhing i've said.

Penderyn wrote:You are stuck with 'either/or', which is counter-productive.   You are a bit hopeful if you see direct action, under current conditions, as achieving much without serious political support.  Our job is to get the great mass of working people moving, not fighting one another while the tories crush us down.

Labour aren't offering, nor have they ever over the last 6 years, offered any political support. Miliband himself was booed at a rally because he spoke against striking. What alternative did he offer? Nothing of course because Labour is another capitalist party and they are broadly in favour of what the Tories are doing, they are just more timid about it. For instance why haven't they promised that, if the Tories go ahead with their plan to privatise every school, they will reverse the whole thing? Simple: because they want the same goal; they helped create acadamies in the first place.

So while you dismiss the only alternative available you are pandering to a party that will not and cannot deliver what you want.

Why are you so dismissive? Do you seriously think that Labour are going to sort things out when time and again it has been demonstrated that they always side with capital? Do you honestly not see the reality of Labour councils voting FOR austerity?

ghost whistler wrote:Labour aren't offering, nor have they ever over the last 6 years, offered any political support. Miliband himself was booed at a rally because he spoke against striking. What alternative did he offer? Nothing of course because Labour is another capitalist party and they are broadly in favour of what the Tories are doing, they are just more timid about it. For instance why haven't they promised that, if the Tories go ahead with their plan to privatise every school, they will reverse the whole thing? Simple: because they want the same goal; they helped create acadamies in the first place.

So while you dismiss the only alternative available you are pandering to a party that will not and cannot deliver what you want.

The trouble with history is, how far do you go back?   The Labour Party has not always been Blairite, and is showing hopeful signs of becoming otherwise, and the current state of the SWP is what you get in such groups during dead periods.    For most people, right now, that choice is not a serious issue - the question is how we get people moving against the class-war tories.   There is plenty of room for  everyone in that struggle.

Seasoned political writer Andrew Rawnsley describes Opposition prospects:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/27/tories-not-scared-jeremy-corbyn-this-bad-for-parliament-democracy

(Well, perhaps ghost whistler will enjoy it)

A lot of people are too dumb, brainwashed, poorly educated to support Corbyn. We get dozy gits on £30 - 40k per year who vote Tory because they think it's in their interests to.....I know this because I work with people like this. And then we have poorer working class people voting UKIP because they're scared of foreigners changing their 'traditional' lives - when all the time it has been Tory and New Labour who have really been ripping their communities and lives apart.

I can only hope that there are enough sane people left to elect a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn..........and even then it's probably too late to escape the inevitable economic and societal catastrophes that will hit us in the next 20yrs.