The quest for Artificial Intelligence and self-consciousness

by True Blue Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:21 pm

Most people when contemplating AI think of computer intelligence. And certainly this thread aims at that. We have now developed chips that can mimic the plasticity of the human mind which brings us ever closer to consciousness in technology... even self consciousness. We understand now that for AI to be truly intelligent it needs emotional as well as rational data programming. We have the ability to grow biological matter such as skin. We even have spray on skin. Add to that some nano bots to keep the skin in good order and the idea of clothing the robot in flesh is not so absurd. The latest edition of Asimo from Honda has improved the fluidity and functionality of movement, making it ever more human-like. It is not hard to suppose then, that within the next couple of decades AI specialists will have created the first generation of conscious, if not self-conscious, Androids. (Will they name the prototype Data perchance?)

But computer intelligence is not the whole story behind AI. Humanity stands at the precipice of becoming AI's also. We can and have successfully computer chipped the brain. It's new technology and used only for therapeutic improvements, but it won't stay that way for very long. The world of Neo from the movie the Matrix, where programs are downloaded into the brain, is fast becoming a reality. Why go to university to study medicine, if that is your thing, when for a price, you can implant a computer chip with all the knowledge you need to perform as a Doctor to an exceptionally high level of ability? Why be satisfied with your basic intelligence when it can be enhanced with a computer chip?

All of these technologies as they pertain to Andriods and Humans are advancing together and so cannot be looked at individually without consideration for the other. As usual however, our Morality, Social Policies and Laws are not keeping themselves up to speed and acting on these near future realities to ensure Justice in their application. This thread aims to explore those three areas as well as the mind blowing 'brave new world' that awaits us.

by astra Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:40 pm

Why be satisfied with your basic intelligence when it can be enhanced with a computer chip?

So we end up with General Surgeons who have fingers like Cumberland Sausages! Suspect

by Shirina Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:26 pm

The world of Neo from the movie the Matrix, where programs are downloaded into the brain, is fast becoming a reality. Why go to university to study medicine, if that is your thing, when for a price

The world you're describing would be a nightmare. There is no doubt whatsoever that those information chips would be so expensive as to keep them out of the hands of anyone but the wealthy, and thus we create a world of homo-sapiens vs. homo-superiors. There are plenty of sci-fi shows and movies that illustrate this, and sci-fi authors are well known for being prophetic. The surgery alone to connect the chip reader would be out of most people's reach - and I'm sure insurance wouldn't cover it.

by True Blue Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:07 pm

We already have a world of have's and have nots, of them and us, of developed and developing, of inferior and superior... so the change you think nightmarish is merely cosmetic. The have's will still have and the have nots will still have not! It is a great tragedy of our time that Westerners, such as we are, can project onto the future that which is happening now... yet not see the nightmare that is here and now for what it is. Is the propensity for self denial so strong in our species?

The economic trajectory for computer chipping the brain will be not unlike other new technologies... expensive in it's infancy and more affordable as the economies of scale increase... and they will increase... the demand will be as it is for mobile phones. (What would we do without the mobile?)

All of these technologies as they pertain to Andriods and Humans are advancing together and so cannot be looked at individually without consideration for the other.

Meanwhile, the dawn of Androids is coming ever closer. Only catastrophe can stop its eventuality. It is a given that they will be smarter than the Natural Human, but not necessarily so for a Chipped Human. What will they think of Natural Humans? I can think of only three outcomes. That we are inferior and too dangerous to maintain, that we are inferior but nice to have around... like pets, or more realistically, they will view us as inferior with some being too dangerous and others rather pet like.

We are creating an entity that will be superior to our species and the only way to equalize the setting is to make ourselves more superior than them. To my thinking... that is the real nightmare.

by oftenwrong Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:05 pm

The quest for AI is a chimera, amply demonstrated in the popular movie Blade Runner.

The human brain can immediately recognise a face while the computer is running through an algorithm that measures distances between the eyes and relationship between nose and mouth while checking the general shape against known databases. Aaaargh ........

by True Blue Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:26 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The quest for AI is a chimera, amply demonstrated in the popular movie Blade Runner.

The human brain can immediately recognise a face while the computer is running through an algorithm that measures distances between the eyes and relationship between nose and mouth while checking the general shape against known databases. Aaaargh ........

You are suggesting then that Human Intelligence is exemplified in our capacity to recognise faces almost immediately? Pity the blind I guess.

Otherwise, the reason our brain can recognise complex shapes is because of the plasticity of the neural network that serves our brain... and learning of course and as I mentioned, we now have computer chips that can mimic the plasticity of the human neural network.

Abstract wrote:Current advances in neuromorphic engineering have made it possible to emulate complex neuronal ion channel and intracellular ionic dynamics in real time using highly compact and power-efficient complementary metal-oxide-semiconductor (CMOS) analog very-large-scale-integrated circuit technology. Recently, there has been growing interest in the neuromorphic emulation of the spike-timing-dependent plasticity (STDP) Hebbian learning rule by phenomenological modeling using CMOS, memristor or other analog devices. Here, we propose a CMOS circuit implementation of a biophysically grounded neuromorphic (iono-neuromorphic) model of synaptic plasticity that is capable of capturing both the spike rate-dependent plasticity (SRDP, of the Bienenstock-Cooper-Munro or BCM type) and STDP rules. The iono-neuromorphic model reproduces bidirectional synaptic changes with NMDA receptor-dependent and intracellular calcium-mediated long-term potentiation or long-term depression assuming retrograde endocannabinoid signaling as a second coincidence detector. Changes in excitatory or inhibitory synaptic weights are registered and stored in a nonvolatile and compact digital format analogous to the discrete insertion and removal of AMPA or GABA receptor channels. The versatile Hebbian synapse device is applicable to a variety of neuroprosthesis, brain-machine interface, neurorobotics, neuromimetic computation, machine learning, and neural-inspired adaptive control problems.

Source - A biophysically-based neuromorphic model of spike rate- and timing-dependent plasticity., Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences.

by Shirina Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:16 pm

We already have a world of have's and have nots, of them and us, of developed and developing, of inferior and superior... so the change you think nightmarish is merely cosmetic.

Actually, it won't be merely cosmetic. I don't care how much money you have, rich or poor, one's ability to learn a new language or become a doctor or learn kung-fu takes as long as it takes. Being rich or being poor does not determine how smart you are, how skilled you are at kung-fu, or whether you'd be a good doctor. When it comes to learning, there are no shortcuts.

However, if the rich are able to download all the information the world has to offer directly into their brains, then what we're essentially talking about here is a super-race. I'm relatively certain that if scientists can invent a chip and chip reader that interacts directly with the brain, it's just a very short leap before a chip can actually begin rearranging the human body. Perhaps a chip could even rearrange genetic codes or DNA strands. That raises the question - if these people alter their own DNA to become smarter, tougher, faster, healthier - are they still human? Or have they become something more? That question will be asked, and no longer will racism be about skin color a funny accent. There really will be differences. Given the human penchant to segregate and discriminate, I think we both know where this is going.

by True Blue Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:18 pm

Shirina wrote:
We already have a world of have's and have nots, of them and us, of developed and developing, of inferior and superior... so the change you think nightmarish is merely cosmetic.
Actually, it won't be merely cosmetic. I don't care how much money you have, rich or poor, one's ability to learn a new language or become a doctor or learn kung-fu takes as long as it takes.

The chip would make learning much faster at a minimum and a matter of 'Total Recall' without any learning effort at best. And because we are highly commoditized societies there is a greater chance that those who have will be chipped.

Being rich or being poor does not determine how smart you are, how skilled you are at kung-fu, or whether you'd be a good doctor. When it comes to learning, there are no shortcuts.

Intelligence is only one aspect of the Human condition. Would Mozart be the well known master of musical composition if he were born a black woman of Ethiopia instead of the white male of Salzburg? No! Why? Because opportunity counts. Socialization counts. Community connectedness counts. Community facilities count. Transport networks count. Nutrition counts. Family dependence counts. Gender is still an issue in many parts of the world. Colour is still an issue in many parts of the world.... and so it goes on. But, if you are born in The West, even to the poorest of families, already you are many, many steps ahead of the majority of Humans. It has been that way for a long time now.

However, if the rich are able to download all the information the world has to offer directly into their brains, then what we're essentially talking about here is a super-race.

If by 'rich' you mean The West in general and those of high status in non Western nations, then yes, we are talking about a super race in competition with the Androids in the pursuit of superiority. But this super race is not necessarily a human race. They would be on par with Androids as being Humanoid.

I'm relatively certain that if scientists can invent a chip and chip reader that interacts directly with the brain, it's just a very short leap before a chip can actually begin rearranging the human body.

Actually, that has more to do with nano bot technology, however the programs that control those nano bots could indeed be located in a micro chip. And there are real and sensible applications to justify that... Moon and Martian colonization for example.

Perhaps a chip could even rearrange genetic codes or DNA strands. That raises the question - if these people alter their own DNA to become smarter, tougher, faster, healthier - are they still human?

If DNA was the deciding factor in what it is to be human, then rather tragically those with Down Syndrome would not make the grade. Too many chromosomes. However, when we begin integrating our minds with computer programs... there is a sense that we are no longer human. The mind of the human is altered you see and it cannot be guaranteed that the resulting Humanoid and the Human will think in similar ways.

Or have they become something more? That question will be asked, and no longer will racism be about skin color a funny accent. There really will be differences. Given the human penchant to segregate and discriminate, I think we both know where this is going.

But that's the point Shirina... it is going that way whether we like it or not... we must keep up with Androids lest we be ruled by them or destroyed by them. Computer science is advancing at breakneck speed, more so than any other science. It's a revolution no less, in the same sense that the rise of Industrialization was a revolution... with one very important exception... the Technological Revolution is advancing at a much faster rate than the Industrial Revolution did.

And just as we were unprepared with our morality and laws that could address Industrialization so too are we unprepared now for the Tech Age. Humanity is too reactive when they need to be proactive. I suspect that the consequences of the Tech Age will be far more significant that those of the Industrial Age and that is taking into account that the Industrial Age came with some rather significant consequences... including the introduction of the mobile nuclear family unit which broke up the majority of extended family communities that had been settled for centuries.

So aside from the fascination with sci fi modifications to the look of the humanoid... there are more profound consequences that await us.

by oftenwrong Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:18 pm

So we are in the hands of Isaac Asimov, subject to the three Laws of Robotics.

How prosaic.

by True Blue Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:51 pm

oftenwrong wrote:So we are in the hands of Isaac Asimov, subject to the three Laws of Robotics.

How prosaic.

The mere suggestion of those laws is prosaic.

by oftenwrong Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:56 am

Could someone publish a list of all the topics considered to be "prosaic"?
To avoid giving offence to the more highly developed amongst us.

by True Blue Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:26 am

oftenwrong wrote:Could someone publish a list of all the topics considered to be "prosaic"?
To avoid giving offence to the more highly developed amongst us.

You really are out to rain on my parade for reasons beyond my comprehension. Well, I'm a three strikes and I'm out kinda gal... and you have struck twice. So if you want me gone that bad, go for it.

by oftenwrong Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:24 pm

My apologies. Didn't realise how much it matters to you.

She'll be right.

by True Blue Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:01 pm

oftenwrong wrote:My apologies. Didn't realise how much it matters to you.

She'll be right.

Apology accepted... but I just want to clarify that I am not here to insult or be insulted, to flame or be flamed nor to troll or be trolled. I am here to think and to read the thinking of others.

Now, let us leave this thread fallow.

by **Phil Hornby** Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:18 pm

Er...things are not always as they seem at first sight..... Surprised

by True Blue Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:28 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:Er...things are not always as they seem at first sight.....

Meaning?

by **Phil Hornby** Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:40 pm

by oftenwrong Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:43 pm

Has anyone noticed how mild the autumn has been this year? I actually have roses blooming in our garden - on November 21st (in the Northern hemisphere) and the dog started to grow a winter coat but now resembles a month of bad-hair-days.

by True Blue Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:50 pm

Oh I see... lets not tell the newbie... let's just joke at her expense rather than for her and others pleasure.

No probs... I'm feeling decidedly unwelcome now and definitely out of the loop, so I'll say my good byes.

@Shirina.
Thoroughly enjoyed our discussions. You have a fine mind dear lady. Pity it was cut short by the forum clowns who thought to deny me a chance to settle in and get to know the place and people.

Let's hope they don't do it to the next newbie who happens past.

C ya

by oftenwrong Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:05 pm

No need to tell us when you discover the wheel.

by GreatNPowerfulOz Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:13 pm

"Actually, it won't be merely cosmetic. I don't care how much money you have, rich or poor, one's ability to learn a new language or become a doctor or learn kung-fu takes as long as it takes. Being rich or being poor does not determine how smart you are, how skilled you are at kung-fu, or whether you'd be a good doctor. When it comes to learning, there are no shortcuts." ~ Shirina

I don't believe how rich or poor you are determines one's intelligence....I do believe how INTELLIGENT you are determines how rich or poor you may be.

It's said that if you were to take all the world's wealth and give everyone an equal amount that the money would eventually end up in the same amounts for the same people as before. The idea that we are all created equal is non-sense and rhetorical...we are absolutely not all equal. We are, in the U.S., entitled to equal protection under the law...not an equal distribution of wealth or abilities.

by GreatNPowerfulOz Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:19 pm

I'm shocked....being the resident troll, I'm appalled that you folks trolled off a newcomer without any input from me. At least I'm forthright about my trolling....you Pakistania type trolls are vicious.

by True Blue Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:35 pm

GreatNPowerfulOz wrote:I'm shocked....being the resident troll, I'm appalled that you folks trolled off a newcomer without any input from me. At least I'm forthright about my trolling....you Pakistania type trolls are vicious.

I'll have you know that I am a flame warrior par excellence. queen

And they didn't run me outta town, so to speak... they merely gave me pause to study them so that I may understand them and their ways.

I'm back now... armour blazing from the magnificence of my most mesmerizing aura.

The quest for Artificial Intelligence and self-consciousness 14y06bq

The quest for Artificial Intelligence and self-consciousness 14y06bq

by oftenwrong Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:43 pm

They never mean it when they say they're running away.

by True Blue Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:46 pm

oftenwrong wrote:They never mean it when they say they're running away.

Oh if only...

by GreatNPowerfulOz Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:53 pm

So then a "Good-bye, cruel world" thread is not forthcoming?

*weeps openly*

by **Phil Hornby** Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:51 pm

Is it me or has our previously-disgusted colleague True Blub had a name change of late...? Shocked

by oftenwrong Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:25 pm

Romeo:
I would I were thy bird.

Juliet:
Sweet, so would I,
Yet I should kill thee with much cherishing.
Good night, good night! Parting is such sweet sorrow.

by True Blue Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:08 am

Phil Hornby wrote:Is it me or has our previously-disgusted colleague True Blub had a name change of late...?

Name change or attitude change? Very Happy

I am the very model of our modern moral consequence
I will inflame and fluster all and one who seek for common sense.
Confuse the undecided that are perched upon their pretty fence.
Yet suffer all the fools who would but think that they are not so dense.

And should you find my modern morals raise your ire and make you tense.
Remember that I can and do without the fear of recompense.

To help me to persuade you I have mastered all the arts of spin
But like some others I am not fevered fan of deathly din.
I merely meekly wish to bring the world to its modernity
And keep it there with warts and all for ever… that’s eternity!

And whilst this will inflame and fluster all of you with common sense,
Remember that I can and do without the fear of recompense.

But since you mention it... a name change does seem in order... True Blue no longer describes my attitude in this place. More's the pity eh?

Admin... do you have the ability to change my name or must I decommission this account and establish a new account with my new name?

by **Phil Hornby** Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:04 am

Crumbs! Must go and dig out my Palgraves Golden Treasury... Shocked

by True Blue Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:31 am

Phil Hornby wrote:Crumbs! Must go and dig out my Palgraves Golden Treasury...

Is that your way of saying that I should have noted the author?

by oftenwrong Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:16 pm

Remember the index doesn't work in quite the same way as Wisden.

by True Blue Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:09 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Remember the index doesn't work in quite the same way as Wisden.

I had to google that. Cricket! Good grief man! I'd rather watch the grass grow.

by **Phil Hornby** Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:50 pm

Would that be at the pavilion end...? scratch

by astra Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:42 pm

Would that be at the pavilion end...?

NAH!! the beer garden of the pub across the road! drunken

by astra Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:44 pm

my echo echo is back

Where's the Rennie and renatas? :affraid:

by True Blue Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:49 pm

astra wrote:
Would that be at the pavilion end...?

NAH!! the beer garden of the pub across the road!

The quest for Artificial Intelligence and self-consciousness Winko

by **Ivan** Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:38 pm

Admin... do you have the ability to change my name or must I decommission this account and establish a new account with my new name?

Name changes aren't permitted because they have the effect of changing the name on all previous postings by that person. Anyone reading through the threads would get confused about who is talking to who, and our aim is to make this forum user-friendly.

You're also unable to decommission your account. That's to prevent the sort of commando raid we experienced when this forum was set up, when a couple of malcontents who have a past history with us in another place thought they could nip in and out and not have their e-adds and IPs clocked.

If you really want to start again, I will have to delete your account, after which all your previous messages will just say 'guest', unless or until I can be bothered to go back to them all and post 'True Blue' on them. I hope you'll decide that it isn't worth the bother.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:01 pm

True Blue wrote:
[Another poster is] suggesting then that Human Intelligence is exemplified in our capacity to recognise faces almost immediately?

... the reason our brain can recognise complex shapes is because of the plasticity of the neural network that serves our brain... and learning of course and as I mentioned, we now have computer chips that can mimic the plasticity of the human neural network.

Perhaps it’s on YouTube; if so, I’ll find it prior to posting and place the link herein.

Jeopardy! ran a two day exhibition (aired over three days) in which a computer with database competed with Jeopardy!’s two brightest “stars”, Ken Jennings, winner of 74 straight matches and two and a half million dollars, and another fellow whose name escapes me that bested the best of Jeopardy!’s best in a tournament of champions.

The computer cleaned their clocks, but not because it was smarter. Its ability to run through its algorithms at nano-second speed enabled it to “beat ‘em to the draw” almost every time. Occasionally, when a question fell outside of its algorithmic parameters, its “first-out-the-gate” answers were hilariously stupid.

Facial recognition is just one way to illustrate the profound limitations of artificial intelligence, more properly artificial “intelligence”, since the “artificial” part renders the “intelligence” unintelligent. The “profound” part accompanies human arrogance that purports the preposterous notion that we can create what the Creator has created, actual intelligence. We can exemplify intelligence, often in immeasurable ways, but we cannot create what we are. The fact, we cannot create what any intelligent life form is, because we cannot create the intelligence that enables any intelligent life form has been created to be.

Here’s an example of intelligence that humans cannot create:

Same incident, raw footage:

Now to see if I can find the Jeopardy! episodes…

Success!

Jeopardy! IBM Watson Day 1 (Feb 14, 2011) Part 1/2

Jeopardy! IBM Watson Day 2 (Feb 15, 2011) Part 1/2

Jeopardy! IBM Watson Day 3 (Feb 16, 2011) Part 1/2

Jeopardy! IBM Watson Day 3 (Feb 16, 2011) Part 2/2

by oftenwrong Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:14 pm

All of human life is there.

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