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Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

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Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:59 am

Lord Manny Shinnwell was my real hero and still is too this very Day. I had one of the best four hours of my life talking to him in 1981. when he relived his life. I cannot think of no greater person than Manny other than my own father. When he died and i lost a great friend back in the late 1980s that I first met in 1975 with my father. I never forgot him, I still miss him even today. a real fighter and was as Sharpe as a Razor in mind and intellect.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos said the following

My Lords, we on this side of the House greatly appreciate the opportunity to pay tribute to Emanuel Shinwell. He bridged the century during which the Labour Party developed from the Labour Representation Committee and the Independent Labour Party into one of the great parties of state, and he played an important part in That historic process. We recalled when he celebrated his 100th birthday that when he was born in 1884 Queen Victoria occupied the Throne and Mr. Gladstone was in No. 10 Downing Street. He played an active part in the early political struggles out of which subsequent Labour Governments emerged—Governments in which he himself was a distinguished if occasionally controversial Minister.
818 In the United States they speak of "the journey from log cabin to White House." "Manny" Shinwell's career was in this tradition. He was the archetypal rebel who became the respected parliamentarian. He was the anti-establishment figure who became a pillar of the establishment. He was the pugnacious Clydesider who became a great Minister of Defence. He will be remembered as one of the great parliamentary debaters of his time, as the noble Viscount has just said. It is said that he came here with certain views about the future of this House; but he mellowed, and I think he enjoyed his time here. He certainly enhanced the qualities of our debates. None of us ceased to wonder at his capacity to the very end to deliver cogent and articulate speeches without a note in his hand.

He was not always an easy man to deal with, and he could be caustic in argument. He never accepted anything on its face value, and he would take a contrary view and become extremely angry at times. He could also be very kind and helpful, as the noble Viscount has just said, especially to young Members. I recall that after answering Questions for the first time in another place he came to see me and said that I had done quite well. I asked him whether he had any advice to give me. He said, "As a matter of fact, I have. You gave them far too much information".

He never forgot the rock from which he was hewn. He had the great qualities of his remarkable race. He had wit and resilience, and tenacity, too; and he was a great champion of Israel. When he responded in This House to the tributes paid to him on his 100th birthday he made a characteristic speech which, as the noble Viscount has said, we all much enjoyed. I recall that he ended by saying I look forward, Members of the House of Lords, to a civilised society". This, my Lords, notwithstanding all the argument, all the struggle, all the confrontation, is what he fought for in his political life, and there can be no greater tribute to a statesman than that.

Lord Diamond said of Manny

My Lords, we, too, on these Benches would like to pay our tribute, and I would start by echoing everything that has been said so far so felicitously by both the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Labour Party. It is very difficult indeed—nigh impossible—to pay anything like an adequate tribute to such a great man in the time which your Lordships consider would be appropriate When his lifespan was so enormous, his experience so varied and his qualities so great. It really is only possible to pick out one or two things, and to remember him by those. If I were asked one thing by which I would remember him, it was his doggedness in fighting for fairness for his fellow man throughout his life, from the beginning, in very difficult circumstances in the East End of London, through Scotland and back to England—fighting the whole time.
I was privileged to know "Manny" Shinwell and to work with him for over 40 years. I am very proud to have enjoyed his friendship during more recent years in this House. He continued to the very end to be able to think clearly and constructively on his feet, and to be helpful in every way he could in terms of personal relationships and to brave through some of his 819 personal domestic difficulties. Indeed, if I may trouble your Lordships with a fairly recent personal connection, it was when, not many months ago, we were in the Tea Room together discussing the problems which beset one at home when one has lived to that great age. He said to me, "You will find that out yourself, Jack. I dismissed this and said, "That is very kind of you, but I shall not be here to experience that". He said, "Oh, yes, you will"—and we had a bet on it—"and, moreover, so will I, and I will come and collect". That would have meant him collecting in something like his 125th year! Alas, he will not be able to collect his bet, but he had that spirit until the very end.

We send our deepest sympathy to his family, but at the same time we rejoice that "Manny" Shinwell was able to continue his fighting for his fellow man and his service to the country right into his 102nd year.

Lord Paget of Northampton said of Manny

My Lords, this House will never seem the same now "Manny" is no longer here sitting beside me. He is pictured as the bare-knuckle fighter, but there was in him an extraordinary kindness and sympathy. We had a very great friendliness, and I certainly shall be among the many who miss him tremendously. One moment I shall always remember, and That was when the reception committee assembled to receive him for his 100th birthday—and could not find him. He had beaten them to it. He was in a nook just outside, watching them with glee as they searched.


WHO IS YOURS OR DO YOU NOT HAVE ONE? IF SO WHY?

Shinwell was born in Spitalfields, London, but moved with his Polish–Jewish family to Glasgow, Scotland. His father had a small clothing shop and his mother was a cook. He educated himself in a public library and at the Kelvingrove Art Gallery. He enjoyed sport, particularly boxing, and he was the trainer of a local football team. He began his working life as a machinist in a clothing workshop. In 1903 he became active in the Amalgamated Union of Clothing Operatives, and joined the Glasgow Trades Council in 1906 as a delegate of that union.

In May 1911, he was seconded to help organise the seamen of Glasgow at the request of J. Havelock Wilson of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union (NSFU). He played a prominent role in the six-week Glasgow seamen's strike which began on 14 June and which was part of a nationwide strike. He subsequently became the secretary of the Glasgow branch of the NSFU. In August 1912, he participated in a revolt against the union, which resulted in the Glasgow branch becoming part of the Southampton-based British Seafarers' Union (BSU). He was the local secretary of the BSU until it became part of the Amalgamated Marine Workers' Union (AMWU) in 1922, after which he served as National Organiser of the new organisation. In 1919, he gained national notoriety through his involvement in the Glasgow 40 Hours' Movement. This movement culminated in clashes between police and protesters in Glasgow's George Square. He was afterwards tried for incitement to riot and was sentenced to five months' imprisonment.

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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by ROB on Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:20 am


I have several political heroes, all of whom served in either the latter part of the 2nd Millennium or the 21st Century portion of the 3rd Millennium AD, all of whom, save one, are either British or American USV (United States Variety), and non of whom are perfect.

At the top of the list is William Wilberforce, after whom a US institution of higher learning is named.

Going forward, the first American is Abraham Lincoln, for whom I have extremely dichotomous feelings.

Next come two social activists, friends whose actualized and sometimes polar opposite social philosophies spilled over into politics, Booker Taliaferro Washington and William Edward Burghardt Du Bois.

Moving along, we find two giants, one who saved the world with the aid of the other, Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, followed closely by the most underrated on this list, Harry S Truman (no “period” following the “S”).

Next we find five 1960’s American, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, also known as Malcolm X and Malcolm Little, Lyndon Baines Johnson, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert Francis Kennedy, four of whom were assassinated in a four year seven month period from November 1963 to June 1968. There are bitter memories in America.

The last 20th Century hero, a giant, is the only non-British non-American on my list, Nelson Mandela, who by force of character may have averted he long expected South African bloodbath.

The finally entry is a Brit, Tony Blair, who stands tall in his opposition to international terrorism no matter the political costs.

That’s my list.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by sickchip on Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:22 pm

Tony Blair...because he put the Labour party back on track without compromising the founding principles of the party. Manny Shinwell would be proud of him! Wink


Last edited by sickchip on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:40 pm

That's spelt "principles" sickchip, and Tony Blair was like a roadside signpost. He could face in four directions simultaneously and had many principles which he genuinely believed in at the time that he found it convenient to believe them.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by astra on Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:28 pm

Tony Blair...because he put the Labour party back on track without compromising the founding principals of the party




Please tell that one to the family of the late Dr. David Kelly (RIP)
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Shirina on Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:46 pm

Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and even more Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Rock has a very good list, all deserving of the title "Hero" in my book, but FDR tops the list for me. It's not just what he did ... but what he wanted to do. His Second Bill of Rights still gets me a bit misty-eyed whenever I listen to him propose it, because his dreams for this country were so noble, and he spent his whole life looking for a cure for polio. He even left half of his estate to his private secretary, Missy LeHand.

Oh, he was an imperfect man, to be sure, and not everything he did was worthy of praise. His internment of Japanese-Americans, for one, and his penchant for discarding friends when they were no longer needed was not something to be admired, either. Of course, he also cheated on Eleanor, and some say he and Missy were having an affair. Eleanor and Franklin never slept in the same bedroom while they lived in the White House.

But for the average American, Franklin was a giant, and I think of how much better this country would have been if he had managed to get his Second Bill of Rights passed.

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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:26 pm

One of my personal choices has also been chosen by RockOnBrother, and I have to be honest in saying that I am slightly biassed because William Wilberforce was a fellow Yorkshireman from Hull, or should I say Kingston upon Hull.

My number one choice has got to be Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, also refered to as "Bapu" meaning father, father of the nation, I have the greatest respect for Gandhi because he campaigned for what was right without violence and without bloodshed, infact he was against any form of violence.

The other thing that has always struck me deeply about Gandhi is his acceptance of all faiths and all religions, though he was born a Hindu, he called Muslims, Sikhs and Christians his brothers and sisters - if only people would follow his example, and though he campaigned against British rule, he respected the British, he toured the industrial mill towns of northern England and was widely and warmly accepted.

Another personal political hero is Tony Blair, because he was a decent man who was not bogged down with political ideology, he would listen to the unions and respect their opinions, and he would listen to the CBI and respect their opinions too, the very first primeminister without tunnel vision influenced by politics, but with the Labour principle of social justice.

I strongly believe that in years to come, Tony Blair will go down in history as one of our best ever Primeministers, he rescued the NHS and brought it back from the brink of destruction, he managed the economy extremely well, improved public services and oversaw the longest period of sustained growth in our history.

Another hero, often overlooked is Mo Molam ( god rest her soul ) and I realy do not need to state anything, but I will, she was the main instigator of bringing about peace in Northern Ireland, I met Mo at an agricultural show not far from where I live and not far from her Redcar constituency, she was in the beer tent surrounded by people who all wanted to meet her, she was jolly and good humoured and had time for everyone.

An American choice is Martin Luther King, an inspirational speaker and campaigner who simply asked for fairness and equality, he campaigned with dignity and honour in the face of racism and bigotry in the extreme.



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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:41 pm

sickchip wrote:Tony Blair...because he put the Labour party back on track without compromising the founding principals of the party. Manny Shinwell would be proud of him! Wink

yes he would of been very proud of him. Wink
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:45 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
I have several political heroes, all of whom served in either the latter part of the 2nd Millennium or the 21st Century portion of the 3rd Millennium AD, all of whom, save one, are either British or American USV (United States Variety), and non of whom are perfect.

At the top of the list is William Wilberforce, after whom a US institution of higher learning is named.

Going forward, the first American is Abraham Lincoln, for whom I have extremely dichotomous feelings.

Next come two social activists, friends whose actualized and sometimes polar opposite social philosophies spilled over into politics, Booker Taliaferro Washington and William Edward Burghardt Du Bois.

Moving along, we find two giants, one who saved the world with the aid of the other, Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, followed closely by the most underrated on this list, Harry S Truman (no “period” following the “S”).

Next we find five 1960’s American, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, also known as Malcolm X and Malcolm Little, Lyndon Baines Johnson, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert Francis Kennedy, four of whom were assassinated in a four year seven month period from November 1963 to June 1968. There are bitter memories in America.

The last 20th Century hero, a giant, is the only non-British non-American on my list, Nelson Mandela, who by force of character may have averted he long expected South African bloodbath.

The finally entry is a Brit, Tony Blair, who stands tall in his opposition to international terrorism no matter the political costs.

That’s my list.

Some great names in your list and would agree with all of them. always had a big soft spot for FDR and Nelson Mandela, but so many good people in your list Wink
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:48 pm

witchfinder wrote:One of my personal choices has also been chosen by RockOnBrother, and I have to be honest in saying that I am slightly biassed because William Wilberforce was a fellow Yorkshireman from Hull, or should I say Kingston upon Hull.

My number one choice has got to be Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, also refered to as "Bapu" meaning father, father of the nation, I have the greatest respect for Gandhi because he campaigned for what was right without violence and without bloodshed, infact he was against any form of violence.

The other thing that has always struck me deeply about Gandhi is his acceptance of all faiths and all religions, though he was born a Hindu, he called Muslims, Sikhs and Christians his brothers and sisters - if only people would follow his example, and though he campaigned against British rule, he respected the British, he toured the industrial mill towns of northern England and was widely and warmly accepted.

Another personal political hero is Tony Blair, because he was a decent man who was not bogged down with political ideology, he would listen to the unions and respect their opinions, and he would listen to the CBI and respect their opinions too, the very first primeminister without tunnel vision influenced by politics, but with the Labour principle of social justice.

I strongly believe that in years to come, Tony Blair will go down in history as one of our best ever Primeministers, he rescued the NHS and brought it back from the brink of destruction, he managed the economy extremely well, improved public services and oversaw the longest period of sustained growth in our history.

Another hero, often overlooked is Mo Molam ( god rest her soul ) and I realy do not need to state anything, but I will, she was the main instigator of bringing about peace in Northern Ireland, I met Mo at an agricultural show not far from where I live and not far from her Redcar constituency, she was in the beer tent surrounded by people who all wanted to meet her, she was jolly and good humoured and had time for everyone.

An American choice is Martin Luther King, an inspirational speaker and campaigner who simply asked for fairness and equality, he campaigned with dignity and honour in the face of racism and bigotry in the extreme.




I also could not agree more with your summary of Tony Blair or Mo Molam. and Dr King was a great hero of mine. even have his poster on my office wall at home. Wink
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by sickchip on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:53 am

I take it people realise I was joking with regards to the odious self-serving careerist creep Tony Blair.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Stox 16 on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:40 am

sickchip wrote:I take it people realise I was joking with regards to the odious self-serving careerist creep Tony Blair.

yep i was pulling your leg. as Manny was nothing like TB was he? Very Happy not that i would agree with TB being either odious or self-serving. as i worked with him and he was neither these things from what i could see. not that I was on the same side of the Labour party has him at all. yet i myself found him interesting and quite complex man. but then its each to there own on him I reckon
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:49 pm

witchfinder wrote:

Another personal political hero is Tony Blair, because he was a decent man who was not bogged down with political ideology, he would listen to the unions and respect their opinions, and he would listen to the CBI and respect their opinions too, the very first primeminister without tunnel vision influenced by politics, but with the Labour principle of social justice.

Here I once again look like being in a minority of ONE, but I'm used to that at home anyway.

History will record Tony Blair as the most duplicitous self-interested PM ever. Mainly because he was a Tory who stole the trousers of the late John Smith, but also because he was willing to betray Socialist principles to gain and retain office. He was of course terrified of the British Public, and introduced more controlling legislation than anyone before or since. His primary discovery was that you could run the Country without the tedious requirement to consult Parliament - the "sofa Cabinet" made decisions culminating in the probably illegal invasion of Iraq.

If Thatcher gets a State Funeral, he deserves to be in the coffin with her when it's buried. Two greater enemies of Britain than any foreign foe.

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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:04 pm

One can have justifiably-negative views about the likes of Blair (and Kinnock) but both were instrumental in their own ways in delivering us from the tyranny of Thatcherism and the feeble fourth-form creep Major. We must thank them for that at least...
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:13 pm

If you think that the present Government is accident-prone, check events during the Major regency.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by astra on Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:54 pm

How about Earl Gray

Yes! He of the Tea!

Parliamentarian and Prime Minister.

Instrumental in making law that children could NOT go to work before 12 years old! and had to have an education.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:12 am

astra wrote:How about Earl Gray

Yes! He of the Tea!

Parliamentarian and Prime Minister.

Instrumental in making law that children could NOT go to work before 12 years old! and had to have an education.

Have a feeling that Cameron would like change that law. that way he can get education down even more and get it back to just educating the very rich who can afford to pay for it
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:23 am

Phil Hornby wrote:One can have justifiably-negative views about the likes of Blair (and Kinnock) but both were instrumental in their own ways in delivering us from the tyranny of Thatcherism and the feeble fourth-form creep Major. We must thank them for that at least...

I Do thank them for that everyday of the week. how unsavoury and grubby Thatcherism was in the dark days of the 1980s. I have yet to workout what total idiot paid to have a film made about her? or whom would wish too go and pay to watch it for two hours. The only three I can think of is Cameron and Gideon or maybe Clegg
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by sickchip on Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:27 am

Karl Marx.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by ROB on Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:44 am

sickchip wrote:
Karl Marx.

How'd he work out?
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:28 pm

Ask Kim Jong ummmm
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by sickchip on Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:26 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Ask Kim Jong ummmm

What would a tyrant like Kim know about Marx? - Like soviet state communism he was as far from Marxist ideals as you can get. It is a nonsense peddaled by critics of Marx wishing to discredit his ideas that makes such ludicrous connections.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by ROB on Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:48 pm

sickchip wrote:
Karl Marx.
RockOnBrother wrote:
How'd he work out?
oftenwrong wrote:
Ask Kim Jong ummmm

Kim Jong is not sickchip.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by sickchip on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:16 pm

I'm glad we've established that..... Exclamation
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:46 pm

several commas (and a bit in parenthesis) that are in search of a Full Stop.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by sickchip on Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:48 pm

Pedantic people.....don't some folk just love 'em!

Throw me to the pedants... cheers
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by astra on Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:18 pm

ME? I'm a Lert!!


I'm allways being told - "Be Alert!" Embarassed





How about Joe Grimmond?
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:36 pm

How about Joe Grimmond?.

A Gentleman.

No useful purpose for those in a British Parliament.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:39 pm

Or on these boards. But I try not to let that deter me.... Very Happy
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by blueturando on Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:29 pm

My Hero is Margaret Thatcher

People in Politics I admire include:

David Cameron
Mo Mowlam
Tony Blair (in the 1st few years of his premiership only)
Vince Cable
Alan Johnson

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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:00 pm

My Hero is Margaret Thatcher
Ugh! And you haven't even told us why! Let Yasmin Alibhai-Brown do that for you:-

"This woman did nothing for women, used state instruments viciously against all those she decided were the enemy within, wrecked collective bonds and any bids for a fairer society, promoted greed and self-interest."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-honours-that-show-the-old-order-reasserting-itself-6284033.html
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by blueturando on Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:05 pm

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown????

Ivan .......to be fair I have seen this women on many tv programs and she talks out of her a*se....Clueless!!!!

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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:06 pm

Have you imparted that opinion to the lady herself, blue?

Show everyone what you're made of. Here's the address:

y.alibhai-brown@independent.co.uk
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by astra on Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:51 pm

Tony Blair (in the 1st few years of his premiership only)





WHAT???????


Even when during the first few months of his "reign" he and Broon rescinded the Treason Act of the UK? (plus all the other things he did that are monumentally BAD for this country, but then, that was allways going to be someone elses problem!)
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by jackthelad on Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:02 pm

Nye Bevin, Clement Attley, but it goes against the grain to to say it, Winston Churchill, just for the war years. No politicians since has been able to match up to them. Did like Harold Wilson a bit though, he always got my vote, as for post war Tories, the only decent one was Edward Heath, but he was stabbed in the back by Marcus Brutus Thatcher.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:39 pm

No Man is a Hero to his own Valet.

Montaigne (1533–1592) : “Peu d’hommes ont esté admirés par leurs domestiques.” Mad. Cornuel (who died 1694) wrote to the same effect: “Il n’y a pas de grand homme pour son valet de chambre.”

To put it another way, you're not likely to call a hero someone that you know really well.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by jackthelad on Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:49 pm

[quote="oftenwrong"]No Man is a Hero to his own Valet.

Montaigne (1533–1592) : “Peu d’hommes ont esté admirés par leurs domestiques.” Mad. Cornuel (who died 1694) wrote to the same effect: “Il n’y a pas de grand homme pour son valet de chambre.”

To put it another way, you're not likely to call a hero someone that you know really well.
[/quote

I would dispute that, all our young soldiers coming home in a body bag, their families think they died an hero. You have to admit, they know their Husbands, sons, brothers, cousins and uncles well enough, you couldn't call them strangers, could you.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by jackthelad on Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:50 pm

I don't know many hero's, infact none at all.
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by Ivan on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:27 am

he and Broon rescinded the Treason Act of the UK
Slightly misleading. The Crime And Disorder Act of 1998 abolished the death penalty for treason and substituted "liable to imprisonment for life" in all past statutes concerning treason. The crime of treason still exists in the UK, as I'm sure it does in every country of the world.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/37/section/36
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Re: Do you have a political hero? If so, who?

Post by astra on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:21 pm

The Treason Act was done away with.

This was to facilitate the signing of the LISBON Treaty, whereby, you cannot be treasonous to a country that no longer exists, but you can be treasonous to Europe, whereby the main tennet of the Magna Carta - innocent till proven guilty is watteres down. This allows in 2015 (stealth legislation) for a German Burghemeister or a French Magistrate to sign a warrant for your arrest and police from his area will be able to barge through your door without a hello or kissmear5e from anyone.

Our newly joined friend Ben of the North may have the details of his thread on the MSN Board on this very subject.

Then there is the case of the 400 tonnes of UK taxpayer's Gold in the treasury, sold off by Broon to the lowest, er, ONLY bidder!


EDIT

Then there is the case of the 400 tonnes of UK taxpayer's Gold in the treasury, sold off by Broon to the lowest, er, ONLY bidder, the moneys going to Brussels to aid a floudering at that time Euro €!


Last edited by astra on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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