Do you believe in miracles?

Do miracles actually happen   or are they simply a refuge for the scoundrel    on the make at the expense of the gullible and suggestible  ?

Of course there is the miracle of Slade performing on top of Buck House   but that is not quite what I had in mind.


It really does matter though. JPII has been made a saint - they even dug his body up to celebrate (no kidding! ugh  ). To become a saint in the past there had to be a number of miracles and there was a devil's advocate to ensure the quality. Since the devil's advocate was abolished (by JPII no less  ) and whose job it was to take a sceptical view of the life this has made canonisation easier. Apparently now only one miracle is required. So what are the chances?

Lets play with some figures. There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world and, for the sake of argument lets assume they live the allotted threescore years and ten. Again, for the sake of argument we can assume that the number of Catholics is stable at around this figure. From this we can estimate that approximately 17 million catholics die each year for whatever reason  . Of these again approximately 4 out of ten will suffer from cancer. This gives us a figure of 6.8 million cancer sufferers who are likely to die from it or complications every year and who are also Roman Catholic. Now we know that about 1:60000 cancers spontaneously remit (that is normal population result amongst theists and atheists alike so I would recommend keep taking the tablets if that is you  ) which indicates that there should be of the order of 285 miracles in the RC population worldwide each year. Remember, it only takes one to make a saint.

I have witnessed a Miracle
 
Newcastle staying up last year

 Apparently Pope Francis has declared the JPII did a second miracle - so all is well with the world (and the fairies and pixies have returned to the bottom of my garden )

Bearman wrote: Apparently Pope Francis has declared the JPII did a second miracle - so all is well with the world (and the fairies and pixies have returned to the bottom of my garden )

Hi Bearman
What really galls   me is that JPII and Pope Benny were acknowledged widely to be very close friends. JPII put Benny i/c the investigation into child abuse. If these two were the close friends that is asserted then JPII must have known ALL about the scale of the abuse AND the extent of the cover up AND agreed with the latter. Had he not agreed then either Benny would have been out on his ear and never become Pope OR there would have been a proper and open investigation and heads would have rolled instead of Benny's letter to the Archbishop in the US telling him to keep it all in house.

For all that Benny has come in for justified contumely for his behaviour over the abuse scandal, JPII seems to have got off scot free. In my eyes he is just as culpable if not more so.

 Hi Bellatori

One thing you can be sure of is that the Vatican will never open its vaults for public investigation of exactly who knew what.

I like the song by the Jackson Sisters. That's about as far as it goes in terms of belief for me.

A confirmed miracle has been attributed to Pope John Paul the Second. The fact that he was able to turn invisible the largest collection of child rapists until after he died.  

Nope. Don't believe in ghosts, spirits or other worldly phenomenon either. Have never seen any convincing evidence to say otherwise and the human brain is easily fooled.

Its all to do with pattern recognition. The human brain is hard wired to detect patterns, whether it be seeing faces or whole bodies in abstract or vague images. The classic example of this is seeing faces/animals/objects in the formation of clouds. The brain is so good at this, that sometimes it recognises something that isn't there.

Thinking...do be patient wrote:A confirmed miracle has been attributed to Pope John Paul the Second. The fact that he was able to turn invisible the largest collection of child rapists until after he died.  

     

I've always found it amusing that these omnipotent gods people worship cannot find a better way to reveal themselves than taking the form of water stains beneath an overpass, cleaning streaks on a window, the arrangement of pepproni on a slice of pizza, or the knots on a piece of wood.

It's like reading tea leaves or chicken entrails. Now we're just reading more modern materials - like pizza slices, pieces of toast, and chimney smoke.

snowyflake wrote:Nope. Don't believe in ghosts, spirits or other worldly phenomenon either. Have never seen any convincing evidence to say otherwise and the human brain is easily fooled.

I don't "believe" in anything, something is either validated by evidence or it isn't, beyond that the nature of the claim determines how unlikely it is, but in the complete absence of any empirical evidence no assertion can be taken seriously. Though I did think of this when I read the thread title...

Shirina wrote:I've always found it amusing that these omnipotent gods people worship cannot find a better way to reveal themselves than taking the form of water stains beneath an overpass, cleaning streaks on a window, the arrangement of pepproni on a slice of pizza, or the knots on a piece of wood.

It's like reading tea leaves or chicken entrails. Now we're just reading more modern materials - like pizza slices, pieces of toast, and chimney smoke.

One of the many things I find rather amusing about Jesus' visage appearing in a pizza, or slice of tomato, is how exactly the lunatic claiming it's Jesus face knows what the hell his mug looks like anyway.

If he ever existed in the first place of course....

snowyflake wrote:Nope. Don't believe in ghosts, spirits or other worldly phenomenon either. Have never seen any convincing evidence to say otherwise and the human brain is easily fooled.

Some more easily than others, Mrs S.   

Shirina wrote:I've always found it amusing that these omnipotent gods people worship cannot find a better way to reveal themselves than taking the form of water stains beneath an overpass, cleaning streaks on a window, the arrangement of pepproni on a slice of pizza, or the knots on a piece of wood.

It's like reading tea leaves or chicken entrails. Now we're just reading more modern materials - like pizza slices, pieces of toast, and chimney smoke.

Well Jesus gets around a bit... such as here but best of all here

Bellatori wrote:

Shirina wrote:I've always found it amusing that these omnipotent gods people worship cannot find a better way to reveal themselves than taking the form of water stains beneath an overpass, cleaning streaks on a window, the arrangement of pepproni on a slice of pizza, or the knots on a piece of wood.

It's like reading tea leaves or chicken entrails. Now we're just reading more modern materials - like pizza slices, pieces of toast, and chimney smoke.

Well Jesus gets around a bit... such as here but best of all here

Since no living person has seen the face of Jesus how do they claim to know those images are his face? It may be a likeness of Genghis Khan for all they know.  I've never understood this premise at all, can anyone enlighten me, or am I just looking too closely at something theistic that should be laughed at?

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Since no living person has seen the face of Jesus how do they claim to know those images are his face? It may be a likeness of Genghis Khan for all they know.  I've never understood this premise at all, can anyone enlighten me, or am I just looking to closely at something theistic that should be laughed at?

Laughing at them, throwing stones at them etc etc is what they expect and in a sick way it sort of re-enforces what they believe already. Maybe the secret is to love them, they won't expect that and it might just provide an opportunity to talk to them in a very real way that touches them where it counts, in the heart. Just a thought.

Heretic

Heretic wrote:

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Since no living person has seen the face of Jesus how do they claim to know those images are his face? It may be a likeness of Genghis Khan for all they know.  I've never understood this premise at all, can anyone enlighten me, or am I just looking to closely at something theistic that should be laughed at?

Laughing at them, throwing stones at them etc etc is what they expect and in a sick way it sort of re-enforces what they believe already. Maybe the secret is to love them, they won't expect that and it might just provide an opportunity to talk to them in a very real way that touches them where it counts, in the heart. Just a thought.

Heretic

Interesting idea, and of course whilst I may deride theism and theistic ideas it's that alone I'm laughing at, I genuinely pity most believers trapped by their own credulity into believing ancient superstitious mumbo jumbo. It's often been suggested that atheists who criticise religion are militant and should give more respect to religion, of course this is nonsense. One should respect a person, even their right to believe whatever they wish, but to presuppose that a belief itself must be respected is absurd. I know that's not what you meant by the way, and I tacitly agree with your suggestion, one maybe disproving of an idea one finds repulsive, but being openly hostile to the person who holds or promotes the idea may not be the best way to change their mindset.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Interesting idea, and of course whilst I may deride theism and theistic ideas it's that alone I'm laughing at, I genuinely pity most believers trapped by their own credulity into believing ancient superstitious mumbo jumbo. It's often been suggested that atheists who criticise religion are militant and should give more respect to religion, of course this is nonsense, one may respect the person, even their right to believe whatever they wish, but to presuppose that a belief itself must be respected is absurd. I know that's not what you meant by the way, and I tacitly agree with your suggestion, one maybe disproving of an idea one finds repulsive, but being openly hostile to he person who holds or promotes the idea may not be the best way to change their mindset.

Exactly, sometimes it's so easy to win the argument and lose the person entirely. To show a religionist that we as human beings are just as capable of really caring as they are. To love them, to go way out of your way for them, to love them, all of this will take away from part of the very foundations of their faith and that is the belief that non-religionists are evil. If we show them real love (not romantic love) then they become a little confused. I know some of them might see you caring about them, loving them, as evidence of god working in your life but will be dispelled in the fullness of time.  

Heretic

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Since no living person has seen the face of Jesus how do they claim to know those images are his face?

What I find rather ironic is how Christians around the world believe that Jesus was a caucasion. That is how he is always depicted - as if a white man would be born to two Middle-Easterners. Yeah, I get that Jesus was supposed to be the product of a virgin birth so who knows what "race" God could have made Jesus. But a caucasion? I just don't think so. If Jesus even existed as a human being, he would have had brown skin, black hair, and dark eyes - like most from the region. If the "real" Jesus were to walk down the street today with his long hair and beard, he'd probably get jumped by people thinking he was a Muslim terrorist.

Shirina wrote:

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Since no living person has seen the face of Jesus how do they claim to know those images are his face?

What I find rather ironic is how Christians around the world believe that Jesus was a caucasion. That is how he is always depicted - as if a white man would be born to two Middle-Easterners. Yeah, I get that Jesus was supposed to be the product of a virgin birth so who knows what "race" God could have made Jesus. But a caucasion? I just don't think so. If Jesus even existed as a human being, he would have had brown skin, black hair, and dark eyes - like most from the region. If the "real" Jesus were to walk down the street today with his long hair and beard, he'd probably get jumped by people thinking he was a Muslim terrorist.

Well quite, and of course a lot of the people busy depicting Jesus with blonde hair and blue eyes are the same ones who try to paint Darwin as a racist, because they have no conception of what evolution is or how it works.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:...
Well quite, and of course a lot of the people busy depicting Jesus with blonde hair and blue eyes are the same ones who try to paint Darwin as a racist, because they have no conception of what evolution is or how it works....

They also have no appreciation of irony either...  

Bellatori wrote:They also have no appreciation of irony either...  

My wife used to do that to clothes.

 

Heretic

Heretic wrote:

Bellatori wrote:They also have no appreciation of irony either...  

My wife used to do that to clothes.

 

Heretic

Booo! Hiss! Boooooo!

Shirina wrote:

Heretic wrote:

Bellatori wrote:They also have no appreciation of irony either...  

My wife used to do that to clothes.

 

Heretic

Booo!  Hiss!  Boooooo!

Sounds like the lyrics to a glam rock song.

Heretic

I am beginning to believe it or not believe in miracles. After my access visit with my daughter on Sunday THEY ARE beginning to happen. I have also shocked her mother by getting my daughters xmas presents already while her mother is struggling, yet my bank manager is still happy as my account has gone up in monies  
my daughter also wants to stay with me longer each time she comes to see me, I must be doing summat right eh folks--xx

Sounds like things are looking up, Stu. Long may it continue.

What a great pity parents cannot stay together and bring up their children and forget self.

polyglide wrote:What a great pity parents cannot stay together and bring up their children and forget self.

What a horrible thing to post under the circumstances. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Thank-you very much Dan, yes they are looking up mate, couldn't sleep sunday night cos I was so HIGH. ALL my daughters choice too that's what made it better, cannot wait til next sunday now. thanks

polyglide, you should ask my ex partner of 14years my daughters mother why she left me after spending most of my money to cure her problems, after I caught her cheating on myself with someone else. who just happened to have more money.  A big house and not a flat like this that I am stuck in. :yeahthat: yet I pay anything that daughter of mine wants or needs. My ex did not have to work whilst she lived with me, she has to 5 days a week now.

polyglide wrote:What a great pity parents cannot stay together and bring up their children and forget self.

Why am I not surprised that a "caring loving christian" makes such a petty vindictive remark, grow up.

I know Sheldon, just ordered the last present my daughter wants for christmas, so now I shall have to hide them out of her way.  that was after asking her to pick a couple more too, sometimes I think either her mum or the smart arse she's married to tell Siobhan NOT TO PUT MUCH ON MY LIST cos I cannot afford it or summat. Well I told her to put two more items on as it was back pocket stuff,plus im getting her a surprise present aswell.All be here by saturday she wanted it all out of argos aswell. 

I will when you do.

polyglide wrote:What a great pity parents cannot stay together and bring up their children and forget self.

I'll forget the

and forget self.

bit and address my reply to the rest of your statement

We all want to meet a loving partner, get married and live happily ever after with children joining the party a little later on. To a lot of people this seems like a fairy tale that is just out of reach. I think a lot of us remember our parents generation where a lot of people stayed together for 'the sake of the children'. I think that led to a lot of unhappy homes where everyone suffered. I think that our parents generation weighed up the suffering that staying together would bring compared to the suffering that breaking apart would bring, there was a real stigma about 'divorced people at the time. I went through this as a child and though I wasn't there at the time of the final break up, which occurred just after my youngest brothers 18th birthday.

I was lucky, I found my partner and we stayed together through thick and thin right up to "until death do us part" and this is not as rare as some news programs might have you believe. Vickie and and I spent the first few years in constant conflict but after that we were together and united to face everything this world had to throw at us. We stayed together and we loved each other in this we were very lucky but it seems a lot of us are not that lucky and that love turns sour. I cannot imagine how heart wrenching that would be.

Genesis talks about two becoming 'one flesh' and marriage is like that, if you can imagine you flesh being ripped apart then that's how much it will hurt when a marriage or a partnership breaks up. I cannot see how gloating help anyone or teaches anyone anything. I have witnessed breakups and they have one thing in common, everyone is hurting. We need to find a way where we can rise above that pain, recognise that things have gone wrong and find the best way to move on. Our society seems to do a pretty good job of that as a whole, with access rights and child support[I don't know its real name] and stuff like that. It's not a perfect system but its a lot better [in my opinion] than some societies where a child may be ripped from the arms of a mother and does not see them again.

In the meantime we have a responsibility to everyone that is hurting, I thank everyone who has supported me through a time where I am hurting, but pain is pain and to have someone not appreciate just adds to that pain. I know how absurd this might seem on a message board but people do get to know each other and a sort of bond is created. I know that these forums might seem like battle grounds most of the time but that is not all they are. We are in part, a reflection of society in general and people that join forums like this one are people that at least think about the big issues and as such care about the direction we are all going.

I know that we are in a sense on the front line of a battlefield and it is easy to get carried away. It is very easy to attack all the time and that is fair enough but when it gets personal it is wrong [we all cross that line sometimes and we need to find a way back]. To attack ideas is why we are here and the spoils go to the victor but to attack someone over something personal is just not on.

Heretic

I said it was a pity that parents did not stay together.

I reiterate same.

It would be far better for all children if they had two loving parents living together as a family, who would deny the fact?

There will be circumstances when this for many reasons is not possible but amongst those reasons will be selfishness and lack of concern for the children.

Falling in love with another is no excuse, neither getting into debt nor not wanting to take responsibility etc;

There are now thousands of children without a family as such and in this day and age it is disgusting.

As always Heretic, the man with the wise words. You are the person people look to for those my friend, well I certainly do as YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO HAVE THEM WHATEVER THE TIME. whatever the need arises. 

Well said, Heretic.

Thanks to friends like yourself Dan and Heretic words that come from polyglide would not hurt so much. really do not know how a person can post such things,knowing what I have been through.

Believe me stu I have in my life experienced events that would test the health and strength of anyone but that does not stop me from having a deep regard for the welfare of children in general and those left to fend for themselves in particular.

If I have upset you then I apologise I know how one can be so affected by events that it is hard to go on, I got through, through prayer and a belief that the ills of the world are Satan made.

You may not agree but I can assure you without that faith I would not have been able to deel with things.

regards.