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North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

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North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Wed May 09, 2012 8:51 pm

Updated at 8:17 a.m. ET: North Carolina voters Tuesday overwhelmingly approved a proposed amendment to the state’s constitution which limits marriage to traditional one man-one woman marriages.
With all of the state's 100 counties reporting, the amendment won in a landslide, with 61 percent of the vote.
(LINK)

Unfortunately my state of North Carolina took its place among 28 other states that haven't figured out that the Bible and the Constitution are not one and the same. I stayed up all night Monday so I could vote against this farcical piece of legislation Tuesday morning but, alas, superstition and fallacy triumphed in the end. Our electorate here in the US is so misguided by bigotry, religion, and an ignorance of history that I sometimes wonder why I bothered to come here and call this country my home. All too often I am ashamed by the actions of our citizens, and standing proud with the affectation of "American" is growing increasingly harder.

Should the American flag stand for division, religious fascism, bigotry, fear, and superstition? Because it does. We are often taught in our schools that America was founded by European immigrants who wanted to escape religious persecution in their native lands; they wanted to be free. But as is so often the case with classroom lectures, that's not the whole story. The reality is that our forefathers came to this land only to find freedom for themselves. To that end, they became the persecutors; they were the abused children who grew up and abused their own children, the very thing they claimed to hate. During the colonial period, Catholic priests were banned from entering certain colonies, Quakers were dragged from their homes and lynched in the town square, and oppressive religious laws were passed: Some locales made church attendance mandatory by law, laughing was forbidden on Sundays, theater performances were outlawed, a ship captain was put into the stocks for kissing his wife upon his return from a long sea voyage, and George Washington himself - as the first President of the United States - was detained for working on Sunday.

The last time North Carolina amended its state constitution was to ban interracial marriages. Is there a pattern here? Incidentally, the ban on interracial marriage was never repealed. The federal government had to step in and nullify it as unconstitutional. Quite a good thing, too, or else I would never be able to marry in this state unless I found a half-Indian, half-British man who happened to be single and compatible with me. I guess I just managed to dodge that bullet, eh? However, if the pattern of bigotry and religious persecution holds, I am confident that one day this amendment, too, will be nullified by the federal government.

This is not really about same-sex marriage. It is about religious freedom - something guaranteed to us by the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution. As an immigrant to this nation, I had to learn about this country inside and out. I sometimes think I understand it better than those who were born and raised here. People flocked to the polling stations with religious zealotry in their eyes to vote for this amendment never once giving religious freedom a second thought. IF our rights are endowed by our Creator, as many people believe, then how can there be a vote to take one of those Creator-endowed rights away? No, I don't mean the "right" to marry. I'm talking about the right to worship as one sees fit - without the interference of government legislation to nudge, prod, and poke people toward evangelical Christianity.

While none of the 28 (now 29) states which have passed these amendments mention God, the Bible, or Christianity in their wording, make no mistake, this IS about religion. Only the dumbest and most duped among us would believe it is not. Anyone fooled by the lack of religious wording in these amendments needs to spend some time learning about politics and how the game is played. I have personally heard our state senators rallying support for this amendment with liberal use of the words, "God, "Bible," and "Christianity," during their speeches. I have personally seen the parking lots filled with church buses during these rallies. I know that churches large and small donated money for this cause. I have personally seen the arguments written by forum posters supporting these amendments, and without fail, these forum posters used sin, God, the Bible, and Christianity to support their views. No one on their side ever stopped to think about the precious and Creator-endowed right to religious freedom. No, not a one. In their minds, I suppose, religious freedom means we have the freedom to worship in the way the majority finds appropriate. Using the popular vote to strip away guaranteed freedoms is both despicable and cowardly, a perversion of democracy.

What's more, these state amendments are malicious in nature - wholly disgusting and, as an American, embarrassing. Until these amendments are repealed, I will never again use the word "freedom" in relation to US law. I will not sing the part of our national anthem that erroneously proclaims, "land of the free ..." I will not recite the part of our pledge that declares, "With liberty and justice for all." Nor will I repeat the phrase, "All men are created equal," a phrase so popularized by our Declaration of Independence. I am not a liar, and I will not repeat those lies, not even in the name of misguided patriotism. Our constitutions, both state and federal, were designed to grant rights - not take them away. They are documents that are supposed to embody the spirit of America, documents that any American should be able to hold up into the air and be proud of. ANY American ... not just Christians. How can any American be proud of a document that has bigotry and discrimination burned into its pages as immutable law, a law that targets a specific group for persecution all because they do not adhere to Christian values? What's worse is that this law does not even represent all Christians. It represents the wishes of only those Christians who believe in religious fascism - that their brand of Christianity is the only right way to live and worship.

This amendment was wholly unnecessary since gay couples were already not recognized by the state. That is why this law is malicious. Why ban something that could not be done to begin with? It is like passing a law banning people from turning invisible at will or flying to the moon by flapping their arms. And why now? America had never needed amendments like these before. Could it be because they were scared gays might actually be allowed to marry, free from the monopoly religion claims to have on marriage? Of course it is. There is no coincidence here, no other reason why states suddenly needed these amendments. They were afraid that they might have to live in a nation side-by-side with others who may not share their religious values. These laws were inspired by religious zealotry, bigotry, and hatred.

They are monuments to all that is wrong in this country.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by oftenwrong on Wed May 09, 2012 10:25 pm

I seem to have missed the occasion when either North or South Carolina emerged from "The Dark Ages". The rebel flag prevails.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by trevorw2539 on Wed May 09, 2012 11:30 pm

Shirian quote. North Carolina enters the Dark Ages
by Shirina Today at 8:51 pm

.Updated at 8:17 a.m. ET: North Carolina voters Tuesday overwhelmingly approved a proposed amendment to the state’s constitution which limits marriage to traditional one man-one woman marriages.
With all of the state's 100 counties reporting, the amendment won in a landslide, with 61 percent of the vote. (LINK)

You do have a problem over there. I accept what you say but have one question.
Do you think that the 'overwhelming' 61% were representative of the population as a whole, or was it a case of a determined minority group getting its way over an apathetic general public? How many were, like yourself, willing to put themselves out to vote, or even cared?
I know you have no way of knowing the religious convictions of all the voters, just your general view
It so often happens.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Guest on Wed May 09, 2012 11:41 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
The rebel flag prevails.

Often Wrong,

Regarding the Confederate flag, an extremely truncated history.

The War Between the States, 1861-1865, was at its ore about the inherent sovereignty brought to the table by the thirteen original sovereign states at the time of federation, 1787-1791, and guarantees to all states by Amendment 10.


United States Constitution, Amendment 10, ratified 15 December 1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The flag of the Confederate States of America represents the cause for which each of the sovereign states which comprised the Confederacy seceded from the Union. That cause was states’ sovereignty. Slavery was a symptom of a sort, and has unfortunately become in popular thought something that it never was in reality. In fact, a little noted but historically important tidbit is that Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation did not proclaim the freedom of slaves in Union states.

As reconstruction waned, white supremacists, particularly the kkk, usurped the flag of the Confederate States of America and in the ensuing one hundred forty years adulterated its meaning.

Thankfully, there are Southerners who now vocally struggle to regain ownership their flag and restore its original meaning. I have been honored by earning the friendship of two such individual, one of whom, circa 1962-1964, left South Carolina and registered Black voters in Mississippi and Alabama. He is White, uppercase intentional, and as such was #4 with a bullet on the kkk hit list, so he did so at considerable risk to his life. Wherever he lodged, he displayed his state flag and the flag of the Confederate States of America.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Thu May 10, 2012 1:05 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Wed May 09, 2012 11:59 pm

Do you think that the 'overwhelming' 61% were representative of the population as a whole, or was it a case of a determined minority group getting its way over an apathetic general public?
Most people, I think, don't really understand the over-arcing ramifications of these amendments. I doubt 1 in 10 people could tell you what is in the Constitution, much less be able to use the Constitution in a political context. I have heard it said by MANY people that God is mentioned several times in the Constitution when, in fact, God is never mentioned in the Constitution - unless you want to count the signatory section where it gives the date as "The year of Our Lord." I would hardly consider that an endorsement of Christianity. Yet it does prove that their knowledge of this document is pathetically lacking.

For most citizens, they believe this amendment, and others like it, are merely about gay marriage. If they are not gay or have no immediate family members who are gay, chances are, they have no motivation to get up off the couch and vote. It is difficult for most to crusade for someone else's cause. So yes, to an extent, I agree that part of the problem is an apathetic citizenry.

However, this very apathy, this very ignorance of our Constitution, is what will cause the slow erosion of our freedoms. If we don't understand what our Constitutionally protected rights are, how can we protect them?

And ... even if you did know, would religious fervor and revivalist fanaticism give way to logic? Would any of these God-fearing Christians even *care* if they were violating someone else's rights? Probably not ... not when it means reining in your own religious beliefs to make room for someone else's. Not when it means "accepting sin."

You're right in saying that I cannot know the religious convictions of every voter, but I have been following this issue closely. I have watched the debates on television, and, barring that, watched them on Youtube. And as certain as I'm sitting here, I can tell you that *every* debate and *every* speech in support of these amendments were little more than Biblical sermons. Not only did our pastors ensure that this was a religious issue, so too did many of the politicians. This vote rode the wave of religion to its ultimate success. This was not about logic, this was not about secularist law. This was about religious bigotry. That, and nothing else, inspired the people to vote for fascism instead of freedom.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Thu May 10, 2012 12:18 am


v=QAT6w7vJmQo&feature=autoplay&list=PL8D141F29C840F599&playnext=4[/youtube]


"[Marriage is] God ordained. It is in the Bible. Read it!"

God, God, God, Bible, Bible, Bible, blah blah blah.

I could post a hundred of these, and every last person mentioned God as a reason for this amendment.

I have no more patriotism. I won't even claim to be American any longer. I'm just too damned ashamed.

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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by astradt1 on Thu May 10, 2012 12:22 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:
The rebel flag prevails.

Regarding the Confederate flag, an extremely truncated history.

The War Between the States, 1861-1865, was at its ore about the inherent sovereignty brought to the table by the thirteen original sovereign states at the time of federation, 1787-1791, and guarantees to all states by Amendment 10.


United States Constitution, Amendment 10, ratified 15 December 1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The flag of the Confederate States of America represents the cause for which each of the sovereign states which comprised the Confederacy seceded from the Union. That cause was states’ sovereignty. Slavery was a symptom of a sort, and has unfortunately become in popular thought something that it never was in reality. In fact, a little noted but historically important tidbit is that Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation did not proclaim the freedom of slaves in Union states.

As reconstruction waned, white supremacists, particularly the kkk, usurped the flag of the Confederate States of America and in the ensuing one hundred forty years adulterated its meaning.

Thankfully, there are Southerners who now vocally struggle to regain ownership their flag and restore its original meaning. I have been honored by earning the friendship of two such individual, one of whom, circa 1962-1964, left South Carolina and registered Black voters in Mississippi and Alabama. He is White, uppercase intentional, and as such was #4 with a bullet on the kkk hit list, so he did so at considerable risk to his life. Wherever he lodged, he displayed his state flag and the flag of the Confederate States of America.

I wonder what this post about the history of a flag has to do with the fact that North Carolina has moved back into the dark ages by sinking back in to religious bigotry of the deep south bible belt.............
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu May 10, 2012 9:18 am

Shirina, thanks for your reply.

My interest was purely 'academic'. Nothing to do with religion. My own feelings are that it is a step backward. To quote Astrad1 - I wonder what this post about the history of a flag has to do with the fact that North Carolina has moved back into the dark ages by sinking back in to religious bigotry of the deep south bible belt.............


I wonder what Obama's statement on accepting 'gay' marriages will have on his re-election chances.

The problem is that people are self-ish. 'Will this affect me today or tomorrow? No? Well, why bother'. Apathy.

Thanks again
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by moonbeam on Thu May 10, 2012 4:52 pm

I have a problem with any law that forbids people to marry the one they love. It doesn't matter to me one little bit if they are of different races, same gender, or male/female. It has no impact on me, personally, nor does it affect those that are against interracial or same gender marriage. As such, I feel they have no right to dictate who is allowed to be with whom.

People who want to say it's against God's word are usually talking out of both sides of their mouths. They claim to be Christian, but yet, their very actions are not Christian. They promote hate with this type of behavior but say the Bible allows them to.

Let's face it. If you pick and choose phrases out of the bible, you can make a "religious" stand for or against anything you want to. But it's taken out of context, and thus meaningless, in my opinion.

Shirina, I don't blame you one bit for being ashamed. I am too.


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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by oftenwrong on Thu May 10, 2012 5:39 pm

Refer to today's quotation from "Twitter".
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Thu May 10, 2012 7:01 pm

Here's a bit of a follow up:

Fresh off their win in North Carolina, opponents of gay marriage are pushing forward to enact similar constitutional amendments in more states this fall – and to actually override pro-gay marriage legislation in two others. (LINK)

Now that the sharks have tasted blood, they're looking for more victims. This is the danger I have warned of since I first began monitoring and commenting on this issue. Once this begins, it builds a terrible momentum like the classic pebble that creates an avalanche. One victory is never enough - more must follow. And once the enemy is vanquished, a new one must be designated so the victories keep coming. Sharks must always stay in motion lest they down ... or so the saying goes.

With the "gay threat" all but vanquished, who will be next? Why, women, of course:

The Raw Story uncovered a sermon that Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson gave in March in which he spends 10 minutes lecturing his audience about how women have destroyed America. Lee is a radical pastor who says that allowing women to vote was “one of the greatest mistakes that America made.”

“Look at every place where a women is in control,” said Peterson. “You see nothing but confusion. There’s no good in it at all, none. It was a big mistake…these women are voting in the wrong people. They’re voting in people who are evil, who agree with them…Men in the good old days understood the nature of the women, they were not afraid to deal with them. Wherever women are taking over, evil reigns.”(LINK)

And this guy is frequently on Fox News, the most watched news network in America.

This country is in serious trouble. Serious trouble. And so is the rest of the world. Other nations should be terrified of America turning into a regressive people blinded by religious fervor and zealotry ... a people backing the world's most powerful military machine complete with the world's largest nuclear arsenal.

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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Thu May 10, 2012 7:08 pm

And now, more information:

Ed Gillespie, senior adviser to Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign, told Chuck Todd on MSNBC’s Daily Rundown that the campaign would make President Obama’s support for marriage equality an issue this November and that Romney will actively push for a constitutional amendment to take away the right of states to voluntarily extend marriage equality to same-sex couples.(LINK)

Keep in mind that Romney represents the party that has been literally screaming about how the states are sovereign and to beware of the evils of Big Government. But, since some of the states aren't doing what the Republicans want them to do, it's time to slam that door shut and bring Big Government to bear against state sovereignty.

The GOP are like rattlesnakes.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by astradt1 on Thu May 10, 2012 9:28 pm

Isn't it true that some Mormons still believe that marriage is between one man and many women?
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu May 10, 2012 10:04 pm

astradt1 wrote:Isn't it true that some Mormons still believe that marriage is between one man and many women?

Don't know whether that still applies, but I do know that marriage between one man and one wife is called monotony - er - or is that monogamy? Embarassed
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by oftenwrong on Thu May 10, 2012 11:00 pm

From the word "Go!" the Republican Party's election strategy has been linked with Religion, in order to harness the unity of heartland America's desire for continuity and stability. Even George "dubya" Bush understood that, and it is now the only effective opposition to the re-election of Obama as President.

Examine only the Religious arguments raging on this small Cutting Edge forum to get a rough idea of how American Opinion is divided.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by moonbeam on Thu May 10, 2012 11:05 pm

That works the other way around, too, Trevor. LOL Laughing

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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Fri May 11, 2012 4:07 am

or is that monogamy?
No, it's mahogany.

Because women can make nice desks, too.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri May 11, 2012 10:28 am

Shirina wrote:
or is that monogamy?
No, it's mahogany.

Because women can make nice desks, too.

Does that mean women can 'construct' nice desks, too. Or women can make - become - nice desks to write on. If the latter the surface would be a bit uneven, wouldn't it? Wink Smile
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by oftenwrong on Fri May 11, 2012 7:34 pm

Uneven? Remember to take your shoes off.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Red Cat Woman on Wed May 30, 2012 9:43 pm

moonbeam wrote:I have a problem with any law that forbids people to marry the one they love. It doesn't matter to me one little bit if they are of different races, same gender, or male/female. It has no impact on me, personally, nor does it affect those that are against interracial or same gender marriage. As such, I feel they have no right to dictate who is allowed to be with whom.

People who want to say it's against God's word are usually talking out of both sides of their mouths. They claim to be Christian, but yet, their very actions are not Christian. They promote hate with this type of behavior but say the Bible allows them to.

Let's face it. If you pick and choose phrases out of the bible, you can make a "religious" stand for or against anything you want to. But it's taken out of context, and thus meaningless, in my opinion.

Shirina, I don't blame you one bit for being ashamed. I am too.


Hiya Shirina
I Totally agree with both of you. i find the very idea of any government or state saying who can marry whom quite horriffic myself. there is something very wrong in society that is following a book at was written at the times of the Roman Empire. not all people in the US believe in this utter rubbish this I do know. What I do feel sorry for is all the people who now will have to live a life of misery just to please a group of right wing zealous who live under some misconception that this has something to do with Religious belief. however, Shirina huni you have know reason at all to be ashamed of anything. as you voted for what was fair and just. What's more I for one totally admire the stand that you made in voting the way you did. so Moonbeam and Shirina hold you heads up high and dust yourselves down and you live to fight another day. as many of us on here are with you both on this issue.

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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Blamhappy on Wed May 30, 2012 10:16 pm

Shirina wrote: Incidentally, the ban on interracial marriage was never repealed. The federal government had to step in and nullify it as unconstitutional. Quite a good thing, too, or else I would never be able to marry in this state unless I found a half-Indian, half-British man who happened to be single and compatible with me. I guess I just managed to dodge that bullet, eh?

This made me laugh. It's as hilarious as it is sad.

People consider America to be well ahead of the rest of the world, but it's actually quite backward, isn't it?
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Hogun13 on Wed May 30, 2012 10:31 pm

Really hard to believe this is happening, over there. Also is Harry Potter still banned in some schools?
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Blamhappy on Wed May 30, 2012 10:35 pm

Hogun13 wrote:Really hard to believe this is happening, over there. Also is Harry Potter still banned in some schools?

Isn't Harry Potter an issue in England, too?
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Wed May 30, 2012 10:51 pm

People consider America to be well ahead of the rest of the world, but it's actually quite backward, isn't it?
Americans can be such ninnies ... to put it mildly. It is utterly amazing the ridiculous things they choose to upset themselves over. Most of it is quite contrived as if they're not happy unless there's a controversy. America is a land of illogical contradictions. After all, it was founded primarily by a group of elitist slave owners who wanted to be free. Oh, savor the irony! But a more current contradiction is the dichotomy between the "rugged individualism that provides the bedrock of the American spirit" ... and this ever-present, sharp-edged push to make everyone conform. How can one practice such individualism if those who preach it the loudest are the ones out there pushing for laws of conformity?

Here are a few recent examples:

In this case, people are getting uptight over a photo of two moms in their military uniforms breastfeeding their children. Leave it to Americans to turn something beautiful and natural into a damned controversy.

"A lot of people are saying it's a disgrace to the uniform. They're comparing it to urinating and defecating [while in uniform]," says Crystal Scott, a military spouse who started Mom2Mom in January as a breast-feeding support group for military moms and "anyone related to the base" at Fairchild AFB outside Spokane, Wash. "It's extremely upsetting. Defecating in public is illegal. Breast-feeding is not."
(LINK)

And here's another case where local residents, in collusion with local politicians, are doing everything they can to stall the building of a mosque in Tennessee ... by claiming that Islam is not a "real religion" and not protected under the 1st Amendment! How can one say that the second largest religion in the world is a false religion? Oh, wait, wait, don't tell me! Is it because Christianity is the only real religion? Ya think?

Mosque opponents have fought construction for two years, arguing that Islam is not a real religion deserving of First Amendment protections and that the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro has terrorist ties.(LINK)

Stuff like this happens all the time. Thank God for our judicial branch of government since the courts have had to step in frequently to stop this kind of bigotry from usurping our laws.

So are we more backward than it would at first appear? In many ways, yes. On so many levels, we are a nation paralyzed by fear and superstition. What's worse, many Americans want to be paralyzed by fear and superstition. The Cold War made fear as much a part of our culture as hot dogs, baseball, and the Star Spangled Banner. We never learned to let go of it ... and 9/11 simply justified clinging to the idea of being afraid.

But, there are bright spots. Despite there being a narrow majority nationwide that supports same-sex marriage, we keep seeing these amendments passed. Yet support for gay rights is increasing by about 2% every year, a phenomenal growth rate for an opinion poll. It's only a matter of time before the religious zealots and conformist right-wingers become a disturbing footnote in history.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Wed May 30, 2012 11:00 pm

Also is Harry Potter still banned in some schools?
Oh yes, don't even get me started on this LOL!

Christian advocacy groups are always trying to get books banned from libraries, both public and school libraries. Nothing like seeing Christian fascism in action. Notice any similarities between these two pictures?




The only difference is that one pile of books is being burned in the shadow of the Swastika, the other in the shadow of the Cross.

Fortunately, 9 times out of 10, these Christo-fascist groups lose their fight to ban books. In fact, public libraries here across the nation often have a special "Banned Books Week" that encourages people to read books that religious organizations want banned. Nothing like a good thumbing of the nose to show just who it is that advocates true freedom.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Shirina on Wed May 30, 2012 11:06 pm

however, Shirina huni you have know reason at all to be ashamed of anything. as you voted for what was fair and just. What's more I for one totally admire the stand that you made in voting the way you did. so Moonbeam and Shirina hold you heads up high and dust yourselves down and you live to fight another day. as many of us on here are with you both on this issue.

Thank you, Red Cat, for your sentiments.

This past weekend was Memorial Day weekend. People hauled out their American flags, their red-white-and-blue bunting, and watched patriotic parades march down the main street of nearly every city, town, and village in the nation. It used to awe and inspire me ... but this year, it all just seemed so hollow. Oh, don't get me wrong - this has nothing to do with failing to honor our fallen war heroes since that is something I can always support (especially as I know people serving even as we speak). But damn ... I just wish that our young soldiers were fighting for true, unadulterated freedom and not merely the "freedom of the majority."

It makes me sad that it has come to this.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by oftenwrong on Wed May 30, 2012 11:36 pm

With so many Americans being descendants of immigrants, why is anyone surprised that they retain "old world" attitudes?
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Red Cat Woman on Wed May 30, 2012 11:48 pm

Shirina wrote:
however, Shirina huni you have know reason at all to be ashamed of anything. as you voted for what was fair and just. What's more I for one totally admire the stand that you made in voting the way you did. so Moonbeam and Shirina hold you heads up high and dust yourselves down and you live to fight another day. as many of us on here are with you both on this issue.

Thank you, Red Cat, for your sentiments.

This past weekend was Memorial Day weekend. People hauled out their American flags, their red-white-and-blue bunting, and watched patriotic parades march down the main street of nearly every city, town, and village in the nation. It used to awe and inspire me ... but this year, it all just seemed so hollow. Oh, don't get me wrong - this has nothing to do with failing to honor our fallen war heroes since that is something I can always support (especially as I know people serving even as we speak). But damn ... I just wish that our young soldiers were fighting for true, unadulterated freedom and not merely the "freedom of the majority."

It makes me sad that it has come to this.

You're so very welcome Shirina Hunni
I found you post deeply moving in truth. as it makes me fill very lucky today that we do not have such a thing here. its sad that many young soldiers from all past wars have died in battle to give the US people there freedoms they enjoy today. only for a small group of right wing Zealous to brainwash the majority into believing they are somehow doing Gods work. how utterly bigoted can anyone be too believe crap like this Shirina. its for reason just as this that has change my whole view of religion as its just a relic of the past. as when you pass laws such as what your state has done then religion and the Right Wing are truly drinking in the last chance saloon. as they are doing so out of fear, as this is what all right wing draconian government do. for me its a deep sign they fear there religious authority is under threat so turn to a law to ban some groups or there rights.

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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Red Cat Woman on Wed May 30, 2012 11:50 pm

oftenwrong wrote:With so many Americans being descendants of immigrants, why is anyone surprised that they retain "old world" attitudes?

maybe we should not be. but I am
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Red Cat Woman on Thu May 31, 2012 12:05 am

Shirina wrote:Here's a bit of a follow up:

Fresh off their win in North Carolina, opponents of gay marriage are pushing forward to enact similar constitutional amendments in more states this fall – and to actually override pro-gay marriage legislation in two others. (LINK)

Now that the sharks have tasted blood, they're looking for more victims. This is the danger I have warned of since I first began monitoring and commenting on this issue. Once this begins, it builds a terrible momentum like the classic pebble that creates an avalanche. One victory is never enough - more must follow. And once the enemy is vanquished, a new one must be designated so the victories keep coming. Sharks must always stay in motion lest they down ... or so the saying goes.

With the "gay threat" all but vanquished, who will be next? Why, women, of course:

The Raw Story uncovered a sermon that Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson gave in March in which he spends 10 minutes lecturing his audience about how women have destroyed America. Lee is a radical pastor who says that allowing women to vote was “one of the greatest mistakes that America made.”

“Look at every place where a women is in control,” said Peterson. “You see nothing but confusion. There’s no good in it at all, none. It was a big mistake…these women are voting in the wrong people. They’re voting in people who are evil, who agree with them…Men in the good old days understood the nature of the women, they were not afraid to deal with them. Wherever women are taking over, evil reigns.”(LINK)

And this guy is frequently on Fox News, the most watched news network in America.

This country is in serious trouble. Serious trouble. And so is the rest of the world. Other nations should be terrified of America turning into a regressive people blinded by religious fervor and zealotry ... a people backing the world's most powerful military machine complete with the world's largest nuclear arsenal.


Shirina Huni
many of us are very worried and terrified of America turning into a regressive people blinded by religious fervor and zealotry. its talked about over here quite a lot when someone talks about the USA. as some of these people will not be truly happy till they start a religious war Shirina. I am 100% sure that if Obama fails to win the election you could well find the US at war with Iran within 6 months. its my view that the religious right are just itching for a fight with Iran. as for them it would be a religious war more than anything else. The left in the US will need to wake up to all of this before its to late for everyone
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu May 31, 2012 9:51 pm

It is interesting watching and reading the posts on the USA. I have said before that it is apathy on the part of the majority, rather than the fervency of the minority that is the problem. 'If it doesn't affect me directly, don't bother me'.
It has happened in reverse in this country. The fervency of the gay minority has brought change for more rights for them. And why not?

I don't live in the US so I may be wrong. Does what is happening in the South really affect the rest of the US. 'Religion' (belief in a god) is, I believe, fairly strong in the US, but that is not the same as the radical 'christian' teaching of the South. Does this minority really threaten the US as a whole?
War. I don't think that the US would have any help in invading Iran. The UK population would not stand being involved, and I don't think that the US people would let it happen. I recently read an article about this subject and although it was only one article it was in a reputable US publication, can't remember which, though it wasn't the 'Beano', which suggested the US people were sick of war.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Guest on Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:06 am

trevorw2539 wrote:
I have said before that it is apathy on the part of the majority, rather than the fervency of the minority that is the problem.

Trevor,

You “have said before” correctly. This anecdote is true except for some details (marked by “#”), which the mists of time have caused to fade from memory, but which are “close enough” to faithfully communicate the “gist” of the story.

In 1991, a 14 year old# Black girl entered a liquor store in South Los Angeles after school to purchase a snack and/or a drink (non-alcoholic). In the Greater Los Angeles area, liquor stores fill the market spot normally occupied by 7-11s and other convenience stores (like my favorite, “Hit It & Quit It”).

After snagging a small, one pint carton of orange juice from the stand-up cooler, the teenager brought it to the counter. For some reason, the teenager got into an argument, a “row”, with the counter clerk, a 78 year old# Korean woman, the mother/mother in law of the liquor store’s owners, whereupon the teenager slammed the orange juice down on the counter top and said something like “Then I’m not paying for this s**t!”

The clerk then said something like “You put it back! You put it back!” in a loud, demanding tone. The teenager responded with “Hell no!”, grabbed her backpack, turned her back to the clerk and stormed toward the door.

As the 14 year old Black girl approached and reached the doorway, the 78 year old Korean woman reached under the counter, drew out a handgun, and in one smooth motion, aimed and fired at the retreating teenager, killing her on the spot. The 14 year old Black girl never made it out of the liquor store.

This entire incident was captured on surveillance video and broadcast over the airwaves. The Korean woman was initially charged with murder in the second degree (un-premeditated, with “malice aforethought”) and later reduced to manslaughter in the first degree (with “malice”, but not “malice aforethought”), since the video clearly showed that the clerk acted intentionally, acted with malice, but, due to the “one smooth motion” from the time the clerk drew the handgun to the time she fired, with no opportunity to form malice “aforethought.”

Black Panther Party members Geronimo Pratt and Huey Newton, convicted of murder and manslaughter in the first degree respectively, received sentences of life (murder conviction) and twenty plus years (manslaughter in the first degree conviction), were remanded to the California Department of Corrections, and were housed in for years in maximum security prisons such as Soledad.

The 78 year old Korean mother and grandmother, a woman who coldly gunned down a 14 year old Black girl, was convicted of manslaughter in the first degree, intentional manslaughter with malice. Huey Newton, upon conviction of manslaughter in the first degree, received a sentence of twenty-two years# incarceration; upon conviction of the same offense, the Korean clerk received a sentence of time served (in county lockup while awaiting trial) and community service.

I was, and remain to this day, incensed. Equal protection of and responsibility under the law, state and federal, is guaranteed to every person within the jurisdictions of the United States, its territories and possessions, and the several sovereign states. That jurisdictional “net” includes South Los Angeles, California, and Oakland, California. The judge who “imposed” the time served and community service sentence upon the Korean woman (who justified her cold-blooded execution of a Black teenager by saying that the girl “disrespected” her) was “up” for re-confirmation that same year. If the judge had received less than a 50% “YES” vote, she would have been required to step down.

At the polling place, the election workers politely told me “No, sir, you cannot do that” when I tried to vote “NO” twice.

The judge was re-confirmed; the “YES” vote, to the nearest hundredth of a percent, was 50.02%,# while the “NO” vote was 49.95%,# which, translated into numbers of voters, means that the judge was re-confirmed by a margin of less than 100 votes.

Meanwhile, in the district in which the execution/manslaughter occurred, a district with 85,000# registered voters, a districtt with an 89%# Black population, the voter turnout was 1.45%;# in other words, less than two of every hundred voters in that district actually voted.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by astra on Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:50 pm

Do you know if the shop stood, stayed open for business for any time after this?
Seems to me like the place should have been avoided, or torched, orput out of business!

After all is said and done, the girl did not know that a loaded weapon was to the asian's hand, the girl was unaware that the asian had picked it from it's resting place, and that the asian intended to use the said weapon, the girl was completely oblivious that a loaded weapon was aimed at her back
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Guest on Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:24 pm

astra wrote:
Do you know if the shop stood, stayed open for business for any time after this?

Regular protests were held outside its doors for a time. I’m not sure if it remained open; I do know that business dropped off dramatically a folks vote with their pocketbooks.

astra wrote:
Seems to me like the place should have been avoided, or torched, or put out of business!

I agree, although that second option is a bit… illegal?

astra wrote:
After all is said and done, the girl did not know that a loaded weapon was to the asian's hand, the girl was unaware that the asian had picked it from it's resting place, and that the asian intended to use the said weapon, the girl was completely oblivious that a loaded weapon was aimed at her back

All true.

The girl did in fact act disrespectfully. In the United States, the death penalty is not assessed for exhibiting disrespect to older people.

Perhaps the law is different in Korea.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:17 am


Astra, I was off by one year on the Black girl’s age (15, not 14), but off by twenty-seven years on the Korean woman’s age (51, not 78). It was a bottle, not a carton, of orange juice.

As you can see, the sentence was handed down mid-November 1991. The Los Angeles riot occurred during the spring of 1992. As huge swathes of Los Angeles, including South Los Angeles and areas as far north as Hollywood and as far west as the Crenshaw District and West Los Angeles, were burned to the ground, leaving many businesses’ buildings as smoldering ruins, I seriously doubt that Du's Empire Liquor Market survived.

__________________________________________________________________________________________


Los Angeles Times

Korean Grocer Who Killed Black Teen Gets Probation
November 16, 1991 | TRACY WILKINSON and FRANK CLIFFORD | TIMES STAFF WRITERS

… [Superior Court Judge Joyce A. Karlin] Friday sentenced [Korean-born grocer Soon Ja Du, 51] convicted of killing a black teen-ager [Latasha Harlins, 15] to five years’ probation.

Du… was convicted Oct. 11 of voluntary manslaughter [for killing Harlins at a grocery store owned by Du’s family]…

… [Karlin] handed Du a suspended 10-year sentence--six years for the killing and four for use of a firearm--and ordered her to perform 400 hours of community service and pay a $500 fine. She also was placed on five years’ probation.

Du shot Latasha in the back of the head after a scuffle involving the $1.79 bottle of juice. The March 16 incident at Du’s Empire Liquor Market in South-Central was captured on videotape by a security camera…

Harlins, who witnesses said had stuck the bottle halfway into her backpack and had money in her hand, is seen in the videotape approaching the store counter. On the tape, Du grabs Harlins’ sweater, and Harlins punches Du several times in the face. Then Du hurls a stool at the girl, who sets the juice on the counter and turns to walk away. Du then reaches for a pistol from behind the counter and shoots Latasha.

Full Los Angeles Times story: http://articles.latimes.com/1991-11-16/news/mn-1402_1_straight-probation
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by moonbeam on Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:10 pm

Wow. That just floors me, all the way around.

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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:28 pm

moonbeam wrote:
Wow. That just floors me, all the way around.

Moonbeam,

I’m still incensed. Copyright limitations prevent posting the prosecuting attorney’s remarks about the sentence and the Korean woman’s attitude. Read that at your own risk; it might cause your blood to boil.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-11-16/news/mn-1402_1_straight-probation
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by Guest on Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:14 pm

astra wrote:
Do you know if the shop stood, stayed open for business for any time after this?

Astra, Moonbeam,

I found this video.

Latasha Harlins - Miscarriage of Justice
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by moonbeam on Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:29 pm

What a sad video. How the heck that judge justified no jailtime by saying the store owner had been threatened repeatedly in the past is beyond me. To hear that the store was later firebombed was certainly no surprise, even though that vigilante justice was no more appropriate than the store owner's.

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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:07 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
astra wrote:
Do you know if the shop stood, stayed open for business for any time after this?

Astra, Moonbeam,

I found this video.

Latasha Harlins - Miscarriage of Justice

One judge should lose her job. Appalling miscarriage of Justice.
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Re: North Carolina enters the Dark Ages

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