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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?
 
The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:57 am

tlttf wrote:Red, surely you don't think the Libor scandal began in 2010, this was an ongoing farce that had been carried on for years and was only found out in 2010.

Anyway, what is labours position on welfare, they are extremely timid about talking about the subject. Does everybody agree that child benefit should only be paid for the first 2 kids?

Wel according to the news that is when it is supposed to have started ? so does that mean it not just the Tory party that is protecting the banks now the media is giving them a helping hand ? The Labour party is not timid on welfare, according to the gov't they have been against every welfare cut the Tories and Lib-Dems have put through so look to your own gov't for what the Labour position is on welfare.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by tlttf on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:01 pm

Child benefit was only paid for the second child Ivan, by 1979 all my siblings were over the age that could claim it. Please note Ivan that even though you try to twist my words to make out I'm some kind of an ogre, I have the same worries as everybody else. I just don't see labour as the way out of inequality. Note how all the senior (socalled socialists) within the labour party bail out to line their own pockets at the earliest convenience, yet still you worship the diatribe that drips out of their poisonous mouths. Why should I and other tax payers pay somebody to breed kids that they cannot afford, I don't mind a maximum of 2, there is no justification for more.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by tlttf on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:05 pm

Just reread your post again Red, I still can't make out what your trying to say. Yes labour are against all cuts, yes they will carry out cuts (just more fairly). They know there's a problem, they are too cowardly to openly state what they will cut and they certainly won't repeal any of those made by this government.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:51 pm

Actualy Labour have never said they would not make any cuts, what they have always said was they will oppose the cuts put forward by the Tory Led Coalition on the grounds of cutting too far and too fast, Surely you can not expect the shadow Government to agree to something they know is inherently wrong. Ed Balls (love him or loathe him) has said from the start that the Governments policies will stifle growth, and he has been proven right from day one. When we rid ourselves of this rancid Government, lets just see how Herr Cameron and the rest of the fascists stand by Labour policy, or will they as before the General Election vote against absolutely everything Labour proposed.
When Labour where in, they realised there where some problems with the welfare system, and it was open to abuse, they also realised that the abusers where in a minority, that is why labour started looking into some benefit claimants and had Atos check them out not with the intention of reducing benefits but of getting them back to work. Then came Herr Cameron and Iain Dumkopf Schmidt, and of course Labours measures weren’t enough so they moved the goalposts and punished everyone and anyone that had the temerity to be ill, unemployed or old.

Labour have been vindicated as all they said would happen has happened including losing the growing economy, the lowering of unemployed and the triple a borrowing rate that Herr Cameron inherited from the previous Government. They have maintained Alastair Darlings 0.5% interest rate but at what cost.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:30 pm

tlttf wrote:Child benefit was only paid for the second child Ivan, by 1979 all my siblings were over the age that could claim it. Please note Ivan that even though you try to twist my words to make out I'm some kind of an ogre, I have the same worries as everybody else. I just don't see labour as the way out of inequality. Note how all the senior (socalled socialists) within the labour party bail out to line their own pockets at the earliest convenience, yet still you worship the diatribe that drips out of their poisonous mouths. Why should I and other tax payers pay somebody to breed kids that they cannot afford, I don't mind a maximum of 2, there is no justification for more.

You seem to be saying tittf that Ed Miliband will run the Labour party the same way that Tony Blair managed it, for all Tony did some good things he is no different to anybody else capable of making mistakes just like I suppose that Ed will not get everything spot on , but what I do know is it will be a FAIR FOR ALL GOV'T not just for the chosen few at the top. Unlike Cameron and his bunch of nasty backstuds they have not got a clue about the economy because it has flatlined more or less from the beginning of this gov'ts term in office, they expect people to get a job from the JOB TREE and when they really can not get one they are penalized by having there JSA stopped I wonder what he would say to some of his own medicine the taxpayer should stop paying his salary see how he liked that.

What abour the verbal DIARRHOEA that drips out of the mouths of the Tory party machine Cameron & Osbourn classing every one claiming benefits the same as Phillpott does that mean all benefit claimants can go out and murder FIVE people ( show me the way to the House of Commons) the way they try too drive a wedge between the low paid and the unemployed knowing there is no JOBS out there and when a job comes available there is 2.52 Million unemployed fighting for that job. As for people having kids just remember it takes TWO people to have a baby, there a job for you tittf go speak to the males and tell them to keep it inside there trousers and just remember accidents do happen.

You have a cheek to talk about the Labour party whenever Cameron or Osbourn open there mouths spouting the Tory MANTRA it is nothing but VICIOUS POISIN
dripping from there GOBS kettle and pot come to mind tittf, it sounds as though you are giving the Tory party an excuse to treat people like they are something that they have just scraped of there shoe, when in reality it is the the Tories that are a PILE OF SHYTE..
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:39 pm

It must surely be time to set Eddie Mair upon Cameron and Osborne. With Clegg and Alexander for dessert... Very Happy
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:41 pm

Logic would suggest a Labour landslide at the next General Election, but bitter experience keeps open the possibility of yet another "hung" Parliament due to Voter Apathy.

People think that all things Parliamentary are arranged in advance, and who is to say that they are wrong?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:25 am

Can I ask all the Labour supporters who agree that Labour would make cuts if in government give their opinion on where the cuts should be made

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by skwalker1964 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:14 am

I disagree with the entire premise. Cuts don't need to be made and the whole austerity proposition is arse-first foolishness. There is no shortage of money - it's just in the wrong places.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by sickchip on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:29 am

skwalker1964 wrote:I disagree with the entire premise. Cuts don't need to be made and the whole austerity proposition is arse-first foolishness. There is no shortage of money - it's just in the wrong places.


The austerity proposition is simply a means of rebalancing power in favour of the few. It is about weakening and oppressing the general workforce and legislating for the removal of the rights of the masses. It is about control. It is an excuse to manipulate and abuse the shape of society.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:55 am

sickchip wrote:
skwalker1964 wrote:I disagree with the entire premise. Cuts don't need to be made and the whole austerity proposition is arse-first foolishness. There is no shortage of money - it's just in the wrong places.


The austerity proposition is simply a means of rebalancing power in favour of the few. It is about weakening and oppressing the general workforce and legislating for the removal of the rights of the masses. It is about control. It is an excuse to manipulate and abuse the shape of society.

I think you got this one spot on sickchip, and there is nothing more to be said, but the sooner the people of the UK pick up on this the better the UK will be. cheers
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by sickchip on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:04 am

Redflag,

Thanks......but I have little faith in the people of the UK picking up on this - they've been educated not to think, and do as they're told, for many years
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:18 am

sickchip wrote:Redflag,

Thanks......but I have little faith in the people of the UK picking up on this - they've been educated not to think, and do as they're told, for many years

When all these cuts have been rolled out and the truth of them comes out, that will open the publics eyes (I hope) and see it is really all about "Tory Ideology".
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:01 pm

For some reason, once this thread has received 990 replies (this is number 972), it will probably lock automatically. If that happens, rest assured that one of the staff will open a 'part 2' so that the discussion can continue.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:17 pm

Another lifestyle choice. I'd chosen to have the lifestyle of a retired Bank Director, but the Pension Pot is more accurately discribed as a pisspot.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:28 am

blueturando wrote:Can I ask all the Labour supporters who agree that Labour would make cuts if in government give their opinion on where the cuts should be made

I think I know where the Labour party would make cuts (Just IMHO) The B(W)ankers first pay & bonuses and make the CEOs & directors responsible for there own mistakes omitting the taxpayer having to bail them out, next would be TAX AVOIDANCE all the companies that want to earn money here in the UK but do not want to pay their FAIR share of tax, it would be a must nationalize the railways since the East Coast line has been nationalized it has made money for the treasury but stupid Tory gov't are going to privatize it again and the private sector have FAILED twice already.

This is just what I would do if it was up to me but i would think that the Labour party have all these thengs in hand and when the time comes they will reveal all but not before they are ready. Now you answer a question for me ? why are the Tory party so anxious to find out what is in the Labour party Manifesto as they are always asking what they would cut if the shoe was on the other foot I am CERTAIN the Tories would not say until they were ready.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:40 pm

Red....The Labour Party does not have a manifesto and they dont have any ideas either, so I am not anxious at all.

I think they are worried about Welfare though and may put forward a few proposals of their own. I hope you critisise these as much as you do on the coalitions measures otherwise your arguments are baseless

Labour was plunged into disarray over welfare yesterday, as its proposals for tough reforms unravelled – and Ed Miliband faced a growing mutiny over his soft approach.
With opinion polls revealing decisive public support for the Government’s benefit shake-up, Labour’s work and pensions spokesman Liam Byrne rushed out proposals designed to harden up its image on the issue.
The move

Rochdales Labour MP Simon Danczuk said Labour needed to talk about how it was going to reform the benefits system rather than just complaining about every cut.

He said. ‘We need to acknowledge some people choose not to work. We all know people who’ve chosen to live on benefits instead of getting a job.’
He went on: ‘Labour should now move from focusing on who loses out on benefits to how they’re going to get those who choose a life on dole into work.'

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:43 pm

blueturando wrote:Red....The Labour Party does not have a manifesto and they dont have any ideas either, so I am not anxious at all.

I think they are worried about Welfare though and may put forward a few proposals of their own. I hope you critisise these as much as you do on the coalitions measures otherwise your arguments are baseless

Labour was plunged into disarray over welfare yesterday, as its proposals for tough reforms unravelled – and Ed Miliband faced a growing mutiny over his soft approach.
With opinion polls revealing decisive public support for the Government’s benefit shake-up, Labour’s work and pensions spokesman Liam Byrne rushed out proposals designed to harden up its image on the issue.
The move

Rochdales Labour MP Simon Danczuk said Labour needed to talk about how it was going to reform the benefits system rather than just complaining about every cut.

He said. ‘We need to acknowledge some people choose not to work. We all know people who’ve chosen to live on benefits instead of getting a job.’
He went on: ‘Labour should now move from focusing on who loses out on benefits to how they’re going to get those who choose a life on dole into work.'

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

When did you become spokes person for the Labour party ? just like the Incompetents that calls itself the gov't they just do not have a Manifesto but NOT A CLUE on how to run a country. When the time is right and in there own time a Labour party Manifesto will be there for all to see, but to be honest this gov't is doing all the work for the Labour party due to there nasty bills that have CUT the feet from under the working people of the UK.

Today the Labour party showed who are the gentleman of politics NOT like Osbourn and Cameron who used the deaths of SIX kids for there own political ends, whereas Labour MPs came out with condolences for that old witch Thatcher the milk snatcher. I myself would spit on her grave I live in Scotland and we the first to get the Poll Tax reason for that is Scotland DOES NOT VOTE TORY she was not prepared to listen when we protested against it UNTIL it hit England that was a different story then her own cabinet stabbed her in the back something she deserved.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:13 pm

When did you become spokes person for the Labour party ?

The same time you became a spokesperson for the Tories, Red

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:29 pm

blueturando wrote:
When did you become spokes person for the Labour party ?

The same time you became a spokesperson for the Tories, Red

I have never thought myself as a spokes person for the Tories everything I have to say about them is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE I do not need to be spokes person for the BACKSTUD party they are such a shower of ass holes they actions speak louder than words. cheers
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:41 pm

Matters may become clearer after the Elections of May 2nd.
Elections will be held in 27 English County Councils, 7 Unitary Authorities and 1 Welsh Council.

The big yet-unknown is what will happen to the right-wing vote. Will Conservatives have to share that vote with UKIP, and in what proportion?

May they live in interesting times.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:52 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Matters may become clearer after the Elections of May 2nd.
Elections will be held in 27 English County Councils, 7 Unitary Authorities and 1 Welsh Council.

The big yet-unknown is what will happen to the right-wing vote. Will Conservatives have to share that vote with UKIP, and in what proportion?

May they live in interesting times.

Not forgetting the by-election in South Shields OW, there is quite a few Tory councillors that are jumping ship from the Tories to the UKIP party that says a lot but you are right it will be very interesting time to see how people vote in the May elections.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by sickchip on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:14 pm

Where should the Labour party position itself?

Paying glowing tributes to Margaret Thatcher?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by skwalker1964 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:59 pm

sickchip wrote:Where should the Labour party position itself?

Paying glowing tributes to Margaret Thatcher?

Blair's was sickening, but I thought Miliband handled his well enough. It's unavoidable to have to say something complimentary in this sort of situation - if you're a leader of a political party, anyway.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by skwalker1964 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:02 pm

blueturando wrote:Red....The Labour Party does not have a manifesto and they dont have any ideas either, so I am not anxious at all.

That's what the Tory party and media would have us believe, but on this very board we've seen 16 things Labour would do in power. Labour are right not to rush into publishing a manifesto ahead of time - though the Tories would love them to do it so that they can snipe at it and plan their campaigns, and are trying to goad Miliband into doing so.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:14 pm

It will do Labour no harm to speak of the late Baroness in platitudes. de mortuis nil nisi profundum.

The Dead have no capacity to hurt anyone anymore.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:46 pm

The Tories and their reptilian media friends will be desperate for Labour politicians to say unpleasant things about Thatcher and,therefore, Miliband & Co. must not fall into that trap. Any vituperative comment from other sources will be linked slyly in some way to the Opposition. In any event, what Labour sources do say will be either deliberately mis-reported or interpreted as a subtle slur, so they have an uphill task for starters...
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Tosh on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:02 pm

The labour party must dump its old left wing policies in the trash can, or it will be in the trash can.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by skwalker1964 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:59 pm

Tosh wrote:The labour party must dump its old left wing policies in the trash can, or it will be in the trash can.

The exact opposite is true. The Labour party needs to be more radically left-wing to give people a clear alternative to vote for and quash the accusations of merely being 'Tory-lite' and 'they're all the same'.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:32 pm

If any Party were to follow the advice proffered by such as Tosh it would soon face the consequences.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:48 am

tlttf wrote:-
Child benefit was only paid for the second child Ivan
Let me say it again for the hard of hearing. Family allowance (the predecessor of child benefit) was introduced for each child after the first. Despite what your fellow troll claims, I don’t make things up as I go along. From 1979, child benefit was paid for all children:-
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No doubt all the allowances came as one payment to your family, and maybe that confused you. Alternatively, you could be suffering from False Memory Syndrome.

I just don't see labour as the way out of inequality.
So inequality bothers you? You surprise me, since the recently departed creature that you so admired deliberately created inequality. Her policies widened the gulf between the richest and poorest 20% of the population by 60%, all fully supported by your friend Redwood.

But you also support UKIP these days, don't you? That’s the party that doesn’t want the rich paying 50% or 45% tax on part of their income, it wants everyone to pay a flat tax of 31%. So Farage and his motley crew would only create more inequality. How would you like to reduce it? 60% income tax? Mansion tax? Land value tax? Make all employers pay the living wage? I can’t wait to read your original ideas.

Why should I and other tax payers pay somebody to breed kids that they cannot afford, I don't mind a maximum of 2, there is no justification for more.
Breed kids”, what charming language! I suspect that in most cases, people had their kids when they could afford them, before the Tories took away their jobs. You still haven’t explained how your idea of a two-child cap on child benefit would operate. If the number of children is to be limited, would it be by the number of children born to a mother, or by the number of children born to a father, or to a specific couple? And is it to be limited by the number of babies or the number of births? What if somebody budgets for one child and has triplets? It’s one thing to come up with simplistic solutions and another to think them through.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by tlttf on Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:17 am

Ivan, I worry for your mental health, read my post, child benefit was paid for the second child when I was a kid. All my siblings had left school by 1979 as such your purposely lying in regard to my post. Get a grip son.

Why can't I have a conscience, why shouldn't inequality worry me, just because I haven't fallen for the lies that your beloved party spouts doesn't mean I have no conscience. Your party proved without doubt over a 13 year period that it would do nothing for the working man. It proved beyond doubt that it was willing to take over from the family and control all aspects of schooling. Was it Karl Marx that said "give alms to the unemployed and you can control their lives" (probably wrong wording Ivan but it will give you something to rant over.

Ivan, have as many kids as you want, simply don't ask me to pay for them. You condemn me by highlighting should that be for the woman or the man. How about for the family consisting of both. How about a bit of personal responsibility. Of course triplets could be born (unplanned) anomalies would have to be dealt with individually.

Speaking of thinking things through, perhaps if you put the \\guardian down and engaged your mind I could take you seriously.

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