What are we going to do about UKIP?

First topic message reminder :

Cameron tried calling it names and then pandering to its demands, giving it credibility. Labour tried ignoring it. Unfortunately, the BBC has gone out of its way to give it the oxygen of publicity. UKIP can no longer be laughed at or ignored, but in order to challenge it, it’s necessary to analyse what makes it attractive to so many people.

I would suggest that people vote for UKIP for one or more of the following reasons:-

1. Alienation
There are plenty of exceptions of course, but the typical UKIP supporters are white, male, elderly and of lower than average intelligence who parrot tripe such as “Farage will give us our country back” (whatever that means). They hold socially conservative views and find ideas such as equal marriage abhorrent. They see themselves as ignored, unfulfilled, not represented by anyone, especially since Old Labour became New Labour for the sake of political expediency. They look for scapegoats to blame for what are often their own inadequacies, and the tabloid papers, whose owners are frightened of being regulated from Brussels, have happily drip-fed them lies and half-truths about immigrants which can’t be resolved without withdrawal from the EU. Hitler blamed the League of Nations when he wanted some of his country back, and Jews when he needed a scapegoat for all of Germany’s ills; UKIP offers the EU and immigrants as its primary scapegoats.

2. A protest vote
Ever since Orpington in 1962, it has been commonplace for voters to use by-elections to give the government a kicking, and until recently it’s usually been the Liberal Democrats (and their predecessors in title, the Liberals and the SDP) who have mopped up this protest vote. Once the so-called ‘coalition’ was formed in 2010, the Liberal Democrats have ceased to be the party of protest and that left an opening for UKIP. (Interestingly though, it was George Galloway who took a seat off Labour in 2012, not something which UKIP has yet achieved.)

3. A charismatic leader
I can’t see it myself, but Nigel Farage is up there with Boris Johnson (and followed by Alex Salmond) as the most popular politicians around. Serious politicians are held in such low esteem these days that a pub bore is seen as preferable.

4. Anger with the established parties
Labour, the Tories and the Liberal Democrats have all been in power in recent years. We had the expenses scandal which hasn’t gone away, MPs are still milking the system with outrageous claims. (Of course UKIP is doing the same in the EU Parliament, and often not even bothering to turn up for work.) While the Labour Party was spending four months electing a new leader, the Tories were successfully spreading one of the biggest ever lies in UK politics, namely that Labour was responsible for the global credit crunch of 2008-9. The Liberal Democrats betrayed all those voters who thought they were a left-of-centre party. Meanwhile, the Tories have been out of touch, cruel and corrupt, yet for some of their followers they haven’t been right-wing enough.

5. Publicity
It’s a scandal that should be investigated: why has the BBC given so much airtime to UKIP, and to Farage in particular (26 appearances on ‘Question Time’ for a start), when it won only 3.2% of the votes in the last general election? Until a recycled Tory MP won the Clacton by-election, UKIP had no MPs. Why, for example, has it been given so much more coverage than the Green Party (one MP) and the Respect Party (one MP)?

6. Xenophobia
The distrust and fear of strangers or foreigners is nothing new, it’s probably existed since man first set foot on this planet. Like most fears, it’s irrational, but it can be easily milked by a right-wing populist party like UKIP. Yes, there is also a fear of the religions which these foreigners may bring to the country, especially with regard to Muslims, in view of the atrocities which have been committed in the name of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims in the UK are simply peace-loving people who want to get on with their lives just like the rest of us. However, to stop, or at least seriously curtail, immigration is a vote-winner on the right. In times of insecurity and anxiety, there will always be a niche for the kind of narrow, fear-driven politics of Farage.

So we know why people vote for UKIP, but the much harder question is how to respond? The UKIP supporters who I’ve tried to engage with on Twitter are oblivious to historical analogies or to any evidence that UKIP is just a right-wing extension of the Tory Party; they show an almost religious conviction that they are right and nothing will change their views. They don’t care if Farage complains about ‘the corrupt Westminster elite’ but then claims £2 million in EU expenses over ten years just to donate it to his party. They don’t care if UKIP deputy leader Paul Nuttall wrote in favour of NHS privatisation and then deleted the offending article – but not before many of us had copied it. They don’t care if Farage has said that employers should be able to hire and fire at will and pay whatever they like, meaning that UKIP would scrap the minimum wage. They are, to use a well-worn expression, turkeys voting for an early Christmas.

I don’t think anything can be done to stop the UKIP advance before the general election. Labour is powerless to act and the Tories are frightened to offend UKIP in case doing so results in more defections. However, it’s likely that Labour will head either a majority or minority administration after 7 May next year. That Labour government must, in my opinion, do a number of things to tackle both UKIP and also the causes of UKIP:-

1. Bring in a living wage
Those tempted to support UKIP can hardly complain that immigrants are forcing down their wages if the law sets a much higher minimum rate of pay.

2. A massive house building programme
This has already been promised by Labour and would start to rectify the slow house build under the last Labour government and begin to offset the devastating effect on our housing stock resulting from ‘Right To Buy’. An adequate housing stock would prevent UKIP sympathisers from whingeing about immigrants - rather than Tory policies - preventing them from getting a home of their own.

3. Promote the EU
Stand firmly against a wasteful and unnecessary referendum on our membership of the EU, which would only cause business uncertainty. Our participation in the biggest single market the world has ever seen has numerous advantages, but Labour politicians in particular seem coy to state them. To his credit, Nick Clegg tried to do that before the EU elections in May, but maybe he is too toxic a figure to gain people's attention.

4. Have a sensible debate about immigration
After the enlargement of the EU in 2004, some places in Britain (I believe Southampton was one of them) were suddenly overwhelmed with large numbers of immigrants, which put a strain on services such as schools, GP surgeries, hospitals and social housing. That’s just the sort of situation which inflames xenophobia and lessons must be learned from it. At the same time, the benefits to this country from immigrants, not just in the caring services but to the economy (overall they are net contributors), should be explained and repeated again and again.

5. Restore honesty and integrity in politics
We’ve come a long way since John Profumo had to resign from the government in 1963 for lying to Parliament. Cameron does it all the time, while Jeremy Hunt should have been kicked out long ago, and so should Iain Duncan Smith. Ed Miliband is a decent and honourable man who must demand the same standards from those who form his first cabinet in May next year. If trust can be restored in Westminster politicians, the need for swivel-eyed, right-wing politicians in parties such as UKIP might start to dissipate.

You make a good solid point oftenwrong. Who was it that said democracy is the price we pay for fools ?

Ivanhoe

stuart torr wrote:Of course UKIP want power at any price, that is why they have all those bloody TORIES amongst them, and those tories who are amongst them want power at any price, even if it means joining UKIP.
biggest pile of hypocrites getting voted for, yet the voters do not realise it because most voters are stupid.

Up to a point Stuart you have got your finger on the pulse of the voters, what I will never understand is why the voters do not see it even with Tory MPs defecting to Ukip I think there will be a lot more defections from the Tory party to Ukip before the general election in 2015.

Very true Redflag, but every average day to day voter will still not take that in.

All we can do is hope the people of the UK wake up before the 2015 G.E Stuart

Better put the ALARM CLOCKS on then Redflag.

http://t.co/452XgNtQXS


This link also to be found (for a reason I don't really understand) in 'favourite quotations' - please read and enjoy xx

Just read it boatlady, don't know why it is in quotations? and takes a while to read does it not, fangs for the link though.

In quotations because I accidentally bumped into a bottle of wine

Glad you enjoyed it then boatlady ahahahah,

This is how Dennis Skinner responds to the threat of UKIP:-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5CcTGN0a8M

Loved that - he really cuts loose, doesn't he?

Just said on the other thread boatlady, I left my comment against the UKIP Supporting COW.

One of the Labour parties finest Labour MPs is Dennis Skinner Ivan he will be talked about right through the decades when all of us have gone to meet our maker but Dennis will live on.   Has anybody any idea how I get a chance to meet Dennis that isd at the top of my wish list.

If I find out Redflag I will certainly let you know. I am pretty sure that he does not live that far in miles from me.

What should we do about UKIP? Sometimes we should just laugh at it!  


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4kHTTTCIAALMvD.jpg

Very good Ivan, how you think of all these is beyond me at times, although when i'm on my own just thinking things come into my head but I do not know whether to post them or not?

I have come to the conclusion that we are far too unpleasant about UKIP and their supporters.

After all, they keep the flies off decent people's sandwiches...

Only because they want them as supporters at the polling station next may Phil.

stu. You can post almost anything you like, as long as it isn’t racist, homophobic, pornographic, libellous or a breach of copyright, but please try to post it in the most appropriate place. The basic rules are here:-

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

I can’t take any credit for the UKIP road signs. They are the work of a 400-year-old gentleman on Twitter called @ThomasPride.

Young Tom must have been around when Tories were just starting up in business, supporting the king against Parliament in the Civil War. (The word ‘Tory’ comes from the Gaelic ‘torai’, meaning ‘outlaw’ or ‘bandit’, so as you can see, not much has changed over the centuries.)  

Apologies Ivan if I have posted in the wrong place, you are right though not much has changed has it.

UKIP looks hilarious. But soon we won’t be laughing

The opening paragraphs of an article by Jonathan Freedland:-

There are times when you have to remind yourself that UKIP is not a branch of the light entertainment industry. The delights it served up on Thursday would have qualified for a Bafta in the comedy category, at the very least.

Dawn brought a newspaper interview, in which the party’s campaign director denounced his own leader as a “snarling, thin-skinned, aggressive” man. Come the late evening, Nigel Farage was in his regular seat on 'Question Time' fending off that charge, defending his unresignation that week, and insisting that a leadership contest was pointless because it would obviously result in victory for him.

The intervening hours were filled with internal feuding and bloodletting, played out in public and in real time, like a cross between 'The Thick of It' and '24'. Party staffers resigned, demanding the resignations of those who had called for their resignations. One donor called for Farage to be replaced by “something quieter”. Farage, that scourge of the metropolitan elite, could not be reached because he was lunching at the Ivy – and was said to be “only on his first bottle”.

This was a worthy sequel to the previous day, when, as one wit remarked, a party with just one MP had managed a backbench rebellion – as UKIP’s solitary presence in Westminster, Douglas Carswell, resisted party pressure to take the parliamentary subsidy known as Short money.

For the rest of the article….
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/15/ukip-party-labour-heartlands-left

It's taking a long time for UKIP campaigners to realise that they're marching to the tune of a One-Man-Band.

I do not think it will be too ong before Ukip implode on its self with everything that is gg on at the top of the Ukip party.

I wish. However, I can see the leaky tub keeping afloat for quite a while yet , simply on the basis that their 'one-trick pony' of a message does still ring a bell with much of the British public.

Andy Burnham has recognised this and appears to be seeking to keep abreast of the issue so that Labour is not left behind during this inconvenient interregnum.

Although UKIP may have its ups and downs , I can see it at least 'bubbling under' for the foreseeable future. The next Euro Elections will tell us a lot, of course..

I have to confess a sneaking admiration for the skill by which Nigel has kept Cameron's MAJORITY government (and all who sail in her) between the rock of BREXIT and a potentially very hard referendum.

The "Party of Business" is under daily pressure from Banks proposing to relocate, and the CBI running out of clean underwear.

What larks!

They should have voted Labour.

oftenwrong wrote:

They should have voted Labour.

Exactly - everything to win - very little to lose

oftenwrong wrote:I have to confess a sneaking admiration for the skill by which Nigel has kept Cameron's MAJORITY government (and all who sail in her) between the rock of BREXIT and a potentially very hard referendum.

The "Party of Business" is under daily pressure from Banks proposing to relocate, and the CBI running out of clean underwear.

What larks!

They should have voted Labour.

Hell slap it into them & just for badness I hope the UK vote to come out of the EU, that will cut off the Tory chest from getting funds from there banker friends so maybe the Tory party will follow there SUGAR DADDIES to where ever the banks move to.

What we have to do is rebuild the Labour Party to appeal to working people.   At first, naturally, we shall be told that that is exactly what puts them off, because thinking is intellectual, but we have, again and again and again, patiently to explain why their interests are ours, and matter.   UKIP, in a real world, don't.

Dignity and respect top employees' workplace wish-list
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3675

That's a sentiment few will argue with, but are the British "working class" still content to be so described? The dignity of labour carries with it an idea of aspiring for something better - something more like the life-style enjoyed by the wealthy.

To people trying to improve their circumstances it might seem counter-intuitive to identify too closely with huddled masses. Maybe the Labour movement really does need to project a shinier image.

I'm posting this here because my response highlights how it is UKIP who have been the pervasive influence on British politics in the last few years. We have witnessed Tory, and Labour, changing in order to pander to UKIP voters......Cameron called the referendum largely because of UKIP pressure. Brexit won because the 4 million who voted UKIP at the last election were enough to tip the referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/05/brexit-right-politics-speaking-for-the-people#comment-86962459

My response / analysis:

If it comes to mps voting on Article 50, and they voted according to how each parties voters voted........here's some interesting number crunching.

Seats:................. Tory - 328......Lab - 231.....SNP - 54.....Lib Dem - 8......Ulster Union - 8
% voters remain: ..........42%.............63%...........64%................70%.......................55%
% voters leave:.............58%.............37%...........36%.................30%......................45%

If mps reflected these numbers in a parliamentary vote they would vote as follows:
Approx. 325 mps would vote to stop Article 50, against approx. 296 voting to trigger it. Article 50 would be stopped. Brexit would stop.

There are a few other seats in parliament - UKIP have 1, Green Party have 1, etc. Obviously UKIP got 4 million votes but only one seat at the last General Election, and those UKIP supporters pushed Brexit through......so UKIP would be crying foul; but tough - they only have one seat in Parliament.
So are MP's, and their respective parties, going to reflect the wishes of the people who voted for them?

Should MP's vote with their constituencies?
I would question the notion of MP's going with their constituencies on this. The referendum was a NATIONAL vote to gauge the mood of the whole nation......it wasn't about regions or constituencies - a constituency that voted remain doesn't get to remain because it voted that way. It was a vote about the whole country (not individual constituencies), and making a decision that effects the whole country.......it wasn't about local elections. Therefore it would make more sense for MP's voting to represent their respective parties based on the way their parties supporters voted nationally.....Labour 63% remain / 37% leave, Tories 42% remain / 58% leave, etc.

It'd be a foolhardy MP that votes against it.
That depends on whether they vote selfishly for their own careers as mps, or whether they vote for what they genuinely believe is in the national interest. Do they put themselves or country first? I would also suggest that voting with their hearts doesn't necessarily mean they would be voted out at a General Election.

Complications and conflicts arise because the FPTP voting system only gave UKIP one seat in Parliament at the General Election, despite them getting almost 4 million votes (12.6% of the total votes cast). The SNP meanwhile got 56 seats in Parliament with only 1.4 million votes (4.7% of total votes cast). Undoubtedly the 4 million Ukippers pushed the leave vote through in the referendum; but because they only have one seat in Parliament they will have no power in an MP's vote on Article 50. Those 4 million Ukippers will have no representation in a parliamentary vote. So will Labour and Tory mps do UKIP's bidding? Interesting!

Additionally there were approx. 3.5 million more people voted in the referendum than did at the General Election.

No matter what one thinks of Nigel Farage and UKIP, it has to be said that despite only having one seat in parliament they have shown considerable guile, and have out manoeuvred the main parties - who now look very confused and foolish. Farage/UKIP have pinned the Tories and the Labour party into a corner.

The point here is parliament have an open goal if they want to defeat the 'new right', because the greatest symbol of the 'new right' - UKIP and Ukippers are weak, and under represented, in parliament. So will mps vote on Article 50 as suggested here or, I ask again: Will they facillitate the wishes of UKIP and 4 million right wing Ukippers who enabled Brexit?

- Corbyn coming out and saying Labour will block Article 50 unless the following guarantees are given:

:UK access to 500 million customers in Europe’s single market.
:No watering down of EU workplace rights.
:Guarantees on safeguarding consumers and the environment.
:A promise that Britain will pick up the tab for any EU capital investment lost as a result of Brexit.

This is excellent news, and should be the main headlines today. Well done Labour for being bold, brave, sticking to principles, and having conviction.

You have at least 48% of the electorate on your side.......let's hope the 52% split between Tories and UKIP at a general election, and we get a Labour government.

.....so if you really want to stop the 'new right' you now know who is on your side.

The sickness within the Tory Party which made John Major call some of them "bastards" and has since defenestrated David Cameron in spite of all his snakey twisting and turning, suggests that the UKIP phenomenon has only ever really been that of another party-within-a-party.

Why hasn't it brought them all down yet? We may not have long to wait.

oftenwrong wrote:Dignity and respect top employees' workplace wish-list
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3675

That's a sentiment few will argue with, but are the British "working class" still content to be so described?  The dignity of labour carries with it an idea of aspiring for something better - something more like the life-style enjoyed by the wealthy.

To people trying to improve their circumstances it might seem counter-intuitive to identify too closely with huddled masses.  Maybe the Labour movement really does need to project a shinier image.
 

Well, I prefer to be a nice old-fashioned human being. People who want something else are tories and should vote that way.

We Brits are sitting here laughing at Americans for electing Trump, but Nigel Farage has been the biggest influence in UK politics, and the driving force behind major changes, in the UK for the past few years. Farage has dictated what has happened in the UK, and has left both the Tory and Labour party scrabbling around trying to change their image, and policies, to appeal to UKIP voters.

We think it's fun to laugh at Farage, but the Tory party and indeed the country are now acting at his behest, and dictat, over the biggest constitutional change this country has seen for decades; and one which has many implications for our future.

Farage is the UK's leader in all but name.

"Farage is the UK's leader in all but name"



Leading self-publicist, for sure, but "followers" seem to fall by the wayside once they get to know him.

Leading self-publicist, for sure, but "followers" seem to fall by the wayside once they get to know him.

So how come Theresa May and her band of loony Tories are now in the process of fulfilling Farage's wishes.

UKIP were awarded one seat in parliament at the last election; but if they had been given seats based on the % of votes they received here is what would have happened:

2015 ELECTION % votes.

...........Tory.........Labour.......UKIP......LibDem.....SNP.........Green
..........36.9%......30.4%......12.6%......7.9%.......4.7%........3.8

Seats: 331............232.............1.............8.............56............1
P.R:....239...........197............82...........51...........30...........24

Consider this - the SNP received 1.4 million votes and were given 56 seats in parliament. UKIP received 3.9 million votes and were given 1 seat in parliament. So is parliament a fair reflection of a supposedly democratic vote; and is it really representative of the will of the people? People have seriously under estimated the level of support UKIP have.

I am pointing out the level of support UKIP have......the number of people here in the UK with that mentality. I think that should be cause for concern.

I think it is cause for concern - I'm not sure what can be done about it but it's rather worrying in my book

I think the clue lies in that ONE seat, which is kept warm by the bottom of Duncan Carswell, a former Tory MP who "crossed the floor of the House". In practice, UKIP doesn't actually need more than that nominal presence, because almost half of the sitting Tory MPs are eurosceptics (and always have been) so will vote the UKIP line anyway.

Notably, there are fewer fans of Brexit in the PLP. But it's apparently seen as a disadvantage in view of the referendum vote, if you can explain that.

Making plans for less Nigel

By Peter Preston:-

"It’s not a fairness and balance question, more one for gritted teeth. Can long-suffering UK viewers please have an interim rest from Nigel Farage? He’s supposed to be retiring from politics, getting his life back together. But there he is, week after week, day after day, sitting on Andrew Marr’s sofa or Robert Peston’s chair, propping up Dimbleby’s 'Question Time' tables or sharing Tom Bradby’s agenda. From breakfast TV to Newsnight’s call, Nigel always answers the phone. He’s the go-to smirk for producers with a Brexit hole to fill.

Unlike Trump, he doesn’t win national elections. But just like Trump, he’s always there near a mic, holding forth. A go-between for Theresa and Donald, says 'The Telegraph'. More a facile go-between for ITV and BBC."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/13/smirking-nigel-farage-on-tv-too-much

"UKIP" has never at any time presented as a unified group capable of forming a government.  It's always been a State of Mind, as crystallised in the recent USA Electoral campaign.   A majority of citizens entitled to vote are simply saying NONE OF THE ABOVE!

But any notion that either Farrage or his new God Trump can provide that better alternative being sought is laughable.  They're the same old, same old self-seekers as the ones they purport to be replacing.

Look forward to Business as Usual, when the dust has settled.  The Licensed clowns such as Bojo and Farrage will continue to amuse and infuriate by turns.

Plenty of people would vote for a Clarkson Party in the unlikely event that he gave them that opportunity.

UKIP is likely to be asked to repay tens of thousands of euros by European Parliament finance chiefs who have accused the party of misspending EU funds on party workers and Nigel Farage’s failed bid to win a seat in Westminster:-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/17/eu-set-to-ask-ukip-group-to-repay-almost-150000-in-misspent-funds