Telling lies for God

First topic message reminder :

Creationism and ID, how much of this idiocy is simple delusion, and how much is outright mendacity? The more I have read the ravings of creationists the more I am inclined to doubt that they sincerely believe everything they are claiming. I mean that some of it is so obviously and ludicrously false, and requires denial of so many facts and so much evidence that I suspect they are deliberately lying. Further, I suspect they genuinely believe that a lie to help proselytise their chosen deity is regarded as a "good lie", and therefore not really a lie at all, but just a pragmatic approach to "fighting the good fight".

A little blunt sometimes, but this punchy article raises some interesting points about theistic debates, and the ludicrous old chestnut that "all beliefs ought to be respected". I have always maintained that what should be respected is the right to believe, not the belief itself, which in any intelligent rational society must surely be judged on the merits of its claims and evidence. Here's a taster, and a link....

"The tactics used by the creationists are identical to those used by the anti-vaccination liars, which is to stand up, tell a monstrous lie which requires a detailed technical response to show the truth, and then sit down leaving the question hanging and no time for an adequate reply. There is no difference in quality between "There are no intermediary fossils" or "There is no way that an eye can evolve" and "Vaccines are made from aborted foetuses" or "Thimerosal in vaccines causes autism". The lie is there, the spectators have heard it, and the liars rely on the fact that scientists take too long to explain the truth and are too polite to shout "That's bullshit!"

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/creationdebate5.htm

How many egregiously dishonest acts, and duplicities have theists and established religions justified in this fashion throughout human history I wonder? After all, in the pursuit of truth a lie is about as useful as a snooze button on a smoke alarm.

polyglide wrote:

                 The problem is as I have said previously, what went bang.

                 The originator of the theory states very clearly that he nor anyone else can say what went Bang and what went before.
                                                   

I think that is healthier for a mind to think matter went Bang than to think that God went with a different sound.



Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:

polyglide wrote:Dr. Sheldon,
                When you can get an elephant to mate with a mouse and get a Minny Mouse, then you will have proven evolution.

                 Good luck.

Poly.

China is working on a program to have an elephant produce a mammoth. If they succeed, is that close enough to your mouse elephant scenario or will you just changer your requirement when and if that happens?

Regards
DL

Polygide appears to have departed, though not in the biblical sense one hopes. However his delusional grasp of biology and evolution in particular was as woefully ill informed as only creationists can be. Scientists have selectively mated fruit flies and produces entirely new species, you'll notice creatards don't make the claim that species change can't be directly observed anymore precisely because this scientific advancement has destroyed yet another gap they inserted their superstitious claims into.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Polygide appears to have departed, though not in the biblical sense one hopes. However his delusional grasp of biology and evolution in particular was as woefully ill informed as only creationists can be.

Why am I not surprised.

I see more and more apologists leaving boards due to the pressure involved in either producing inane replies that tend to deflect from things they cannot speak to in terms of science, but even worse when they cannot justify the morality that their Gods are showing.

The better their opponent, and in you there is talent and intelligence, the faster the theists tend to run from.

Soon, we will run out of theists in the West as the numbers who are foolish enough to want to associate themselves with people who believe myths are reality is dwindling daily.

In a sense, this makes it harder for me to push Gnostic Christianity as a viable belief system that seeks knowledge, wisdom and the best rules and laws to live life by, instead of some imaginary sky daddy.

Oh well, that is better than us advocating religions that only seem to be able to grow by violence instead of good deeds.

You and I and like minded apologists might have to start looking for Muslim sites that do not ban us the moment we try to discuss things in an intelligent way with them. My ban record is already high with such sites. Oh well.

Regards
DL

Is this proof that priests, preachers and imams are all perpetual liars?

The first thing priests, preachers or imams will tell you is the intelligent view that supernatural Gods are unknowable, unfathomable, and work in mysterious ways.

The second thing that priests, preachers and imams will do is start to ream off the volumes of information and dogma that they say their religion knows and fathom of the unknowable and unfathomable.

The third thing a priests, preachers or imams will do is put out his hand for your cash.

Is this enough evidence and proof for you to recognize you are being lied to about God by perpetually lying priests, preachers and imams?

Regards
DL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVZBD-5fLSw

Greatest I am wrote:Is this proof that priests, preachers and imams are all perpetual liars?

I'm sure you'll find theists will also concur to some degree , especially if Christianity is preached with the hidden agenda of financial gain.

But yes it does happen and Jesus  (knowing these things would happen) said :

Mathew 23

"1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but 'do not' ye after their works: for they say, and do not.


25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess."

The good thing at least is; there are those who do preach Mathew 23.

Jsmythe wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

I'm sure you'll find theists will also concur to some degree , especially if Christianity is preached with the hidden agenda of financial gain.

.

Some very few in these places.

I am sure you are right though because most more progressive Christians are not as gullible as their more fundamental literalist brain dead friends.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:Is this proof that priests, preachers and imams are all perpetual liars?

The first thing priests, preachers or imams will tell you is the intelligent view that supernatural Gods are unknowable, unfathomable, and work in mysterious ways.

The second thing that priests, preachers and imams will do is start to ream off the volumes of information and dogma that they say their religion knows and fathom of the unknowable and unfathomable.

The third thing a priests, preachers or imams will do is put out his hand for your cash.

Is this enough evidence and proof for you to recognize you are being lied to about God by perpetually lying priests, preachers and imams?

Aren't you also lying to others about god? I cannot see how you are any different. You have a belief system based on a perceived experience that you tout to others as factual. You had an experience that you believe was real. You don't know that and telling us that it was real without any solid evidence makes you no better than any other priest, imam or preacher. No offense.

snowyflake wrote: Aren't you also lying to others about god? I cannot see how you are any different. You have a belief system based on a perceived experience that you tout to others as factual. You had an experience that you believe was real. You don't know that and telling us that it was real without any solid evidence makes you no better than any other priest, imam or preacher. No offense.

That almost hurt.    

Don't trust anything without verification and please keep your cash.

Verify with the bible, Jesus and your own experience should you choose to do the work that will gain you enlightenment.

Here are the pertinent facts from Jesus himself and his teachings, that the church never teaches.



This other link is on the same theme but adds other details that I find interesting from a philosopher.


https://youtu.be/alRNbesfXXw

Regards
DL

Sorry. I don't mean to sound harsh  but there is no evidence for the existence of jesus either. So again, you cannot make this claim as if it is fact. You don't know. Your claims are faith based not evidence based.

And the crazy looking guy in the first clip.....i'm pretty sure isn't jesus

snowyflake wrote:Sorry. I don't mean to sound harsh  but there is no evidence for the existence of jesus either.

Gnostic Christians, like you, also do not believe in a literal Jesus as scriptures present him. We see Jesus as an archetypal good man. This goes back to our roots, which was Chrestianity, although I have no proof of this opinion.

This link speaks to our seeing Jesus as just a mythical construct. Let me introduce you to a Gnostic writer.



Regards
DL

Again, jesus might not be real. The point of religious belief is that you all believe that it is 'real'. And you make this claim ad nauseum without evidence. I will reiterate a 1000 x that your personal subjective experience is not evidence of jesus, god or gnosticism. All it is, is evidence of your BELiEF.

It was 'gentle Jesus meek and mild' that according to the bible introduced the concept of hell and everlasting torture. As barbaric immoral and inhumane as the OT was, they did at least desist once you'd died. The idea of eternal torture is about as immoral a concept as I can imagine, if I was certain a deity existed and wanted this then I'd still want nothing to do with it. Luckily no one has ever demonstrated any evidence remotely commensurate to the claim of theism, and the arguments are rife with logically fallacious premises and conclusions.

snowyflake wrote:
Again, jesus might not be real. The point of religious belief is that you all believe that it is 'real'. And you make this claim ad nauseum without evidence. I will reiterate a 1000 x that your personal subjective experience is not evidence of jesus, god or gnosticism. All it is, is evidence of your BELiEF.

I do not make my claims from lack of evidence. I put my claim and took my title of Gnostic Christian after apotheosis, not before.

That evidence, unfortunately, is not evidence that can be shared. It can only be stated and if the hearer wants to give it credibility, it is up to him.

There is no personal profit for me in making my claim. The opposite is mostly true. I offer it as an anecdotal rendering and have no control over your particular beliefs.

Regards
DL

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:It was 'gentle Jesus meek and mild' that according to the bible introduced the concept of hell and everlasting torture. As barbaric immoral and inhumane as the OT was, they did at least desist once you'd died. The idea of eternal torture is about as immoral a concept as I can imagine, if I was certain a deity existed and wanted this then I'd still want nothing to do with it. Luckily  no one has ever demonstrated any evidence remotely commensurate to the claim of theism, and the arguments are rife with logically fallacious premises and conclusions.

Have you heard of Bishop Spong.
One of the few Christian clergy that has stopped lying to people.



Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
Have you heard of Bishop Spong.
One of the few Christian clergy that has stopped lying to people.

Regards
DL

I just watched your vid and I just don't understand why he would make that claim???  If he had said instead that Christians were using hell as a devious doctination tool, rather than saying they "invented" hell. Then it would have been a bit better as an argument.

I refer to - of course; the "Book of Enoch" which should be included in the bible since Genesis quotes from it. The concept of hell was not invented by the Christians! Somebody does seem to be lying here (The claimer) I would hate to say ... but as according to the scripture, he is I would say - seriously mistaken.

Perhaps there was good reason to not include the BoE so that claims like these could suddenly be refuted when people forget there is a 'Book of Enoch' (other books too no doubt). A divine intervention I call it .

One has to admire the simplicity of anyone's claim to a belief based upon an English translation of a Latin version of holy scriptures also derived from classic Greek describing the words spoken by Jesus, whose natural language would have been Aramaic.

No room for error there.

Jsmythe wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Have you heard of Bishop Spong.
One of the few Christian clergy that has stopped lying to people.

Regards
DL

I just watched your vid and I just don't understand why he would make that claim???  If he had said instead that Christians were using hell as a devious doctination tool, rather than saying they "invented" hell. Then it would have been a bit better as an argument.

I refer to - of course; the "Book of Enoch" which should be included in the bible since Genesis quotes from it. The concept of hell was not invented by the Christians! Somebody does seem to be lying here (The claimer) I would hate to say ... but as according to the scripture, he is I would say - seriously mistaken.

Perhaps there was good reason to not include the BoE so that claims like these could suddenly be refuted when people forget there is a 'Book of Enoch' (other books too no doubt). A divine intervention I call it .

I call Enoch just more supernaturally based B.S.

No one can know anything about the supernatural realm and those who speak of a real and literal hell are just plain lying.

Regards
DL

oftenwrong wrote:One has to admire the simplicity of anyone's claim to a belief based upon an English translation of a Latin version of holy scriptures also derived from classic Greek describing the words spoken by Jesus, whose natural language would have been Aramaic.

No room for error there.

Indeed. To fools.

Regards
DL

No one can know anything about the supernatural realm and those who speak of a real and literal hell are just plain lying.

No one can know anything about something that does not exist. Until there is real evidence of its existence, there is no point in pretending that it does exist any more than there is any point in believing unicorns and mermaids and the Tooth Fairy exist. They are the same types of beliefs. Just because one attaches nobility or sacredness to something doesn't make it any more believable except to those who wish it so.

Logic is what usually defeats superstition. e.g. When a growing-up adolescent learns more fully about the human reproductive process, some widely-held religious beliefs defy all credibility.

snowyflake wrote:

No one can know anything about the supernatural realm and those who speak of a real and literal hell are just plain lying.

No one can know anything about something that does not exist. Until there is real evidence of its existence, there is no point in pretending that it does exist any more than there is any point in believing unicorns and mermaids and the Tooth Fairy exist. They are the same types of beliefs. Just because one attaches nobility or sacredness to something doesn't make it any more believable except to those who wish it so.

+ 1

Regards
DL

oftenwrong wrote:Logic is what usually defeats superstition. e.g. When a growing-up adolescent learns more fully about the human reproductive process, some widely-held religious beliefs defy all credibility.

True to a free thinking mind that has not been indoctrinated into a faith of fools.

Those get something like this from their preaches, priests or imams.

Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

And a more modern version.

https://imgur.com/IBroXK9

Regards
DL