What now for Labour? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Phil Hornby wrote:I feel that Corbyn is sincere, polite, interesting and likeable - so are my neighbours but, like them, he isn't electable as Prime Minister.

In which case, why should we pay some phoney twicer to be something else?

I fully agree that Sadiq Khan has much to commend him - but let's see how he manages to handle the inevitable onslaught from the right-wing media vultures.

I wish him every success and Labour needs to listen to any of its number who can actually beat a Tory! No doubt if he should have the temerity to suggest that everything in the Corbyn orbit is nor perfect he will become labelled a 'Blairite' lackey, but let's hope sense prevails and lessons are learned.

Heaven knows , the Opposition needs to get as many footholds with the electorate as possible...

witchfinder wrote:-
all of a sudden the BBC is right wing, or in the pockets of the government

What a strange comment from someone who started a thread more than four years ago with the title "The gradual destruction and right-wing bias of the BBC". Since then things have gone from bad to worse, and that thread, which is still active, contains plenty of evidence to support its title.

The Tories have undermined the BBC by stealth, just as they’ve done with an even more popular public service, the NHS. Much of the bias has been by omission, starting with the repeated failure of the BBC to mention the controversial passage of the Health and Social Care Act of 2012 and the many protests against it across the country. More recently, there has been very little reporting of the looming investigations into the Tory Party for allegations of election fraud, which Channel 4 has covered in detail.

Now we have a culture secretary, John Whittingdale, who has said that the disappearance of the BBC would be “a tempting prospect”. Then there is the sinister proposal to put a majority of government nominees on the editorial board of the BBC, which is supposed to be responsible for protecting its editorial independence from government interference! We know that Cameron is in Murdoch's pocket, and we know the Tories hate all things public. So we shouldn't be surprised at these developments, but we also shouldn't deceive ourselves into believing that the BBC is "impartial", when it blatantly isn't.

If you want to discuss this, please do so on the appropriate thread:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t193-the-gradual-destruction-and-right-wing-bias-of-the-bbc

The problem is not how to beat a tory, which normal people can do by appealing to normal experience, but to beat a tory with a blairite constantly tripping you up, jumping on your head and screeching MURDOCH hysteria while he grovels to the enemy. That is a little harder, fair play!

Sucking up to the Boss is not a new phenomenon, and the rich man's jokes are always funny. Most voters suspect that someone like Mr Corbyn is more likely to want to share some of what they might already possess with the rather less well-off.

Where's the fun in that?

The PLPs move to oust Corbyn through a 'no confidence motion' is stupid and disgraceful; but it does demonstrate that the PLP is full petty minded self interested cnuts that want to carry on not caring a jot about what is in the best interests workers/less well off. They're clearly happy carrying on with Blairist/Tory policies.

If Corbyn goes my support for Labour goes too.......and, I imagine, many others.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3658885/Tony-Blair-warns-big-consequences-country-s-vote-Brexit-hits-Corbyn-s-leadership.html?ITO=1490

Whoever Blair is against, I'll happily support.

oftenwrong wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3658885/Tony-Blair-warns-big-consequences-country-s-vote-Brexit-hits-Corbyn-s-leadership.html?ITO=1490

Whoever Blair is against, I'll happily support.

Me too. Signed Boris

Excellent statement from Corbyn today.

I hope Boris does become Tory leader because I can't see him being popular anywhere north of London, and even better if he drags Gove and IDS into his team. I've got a feeling the Tories are about to mess up by making Boris leader.

Now if the meddling Blairites and anti-Corbyn members of the PLP can just shut up and stop moaning, Labour might have a decent chance of being elected to govern at the next election.

"Labour might have a decent chance of being elected to govern at the next election."

A definite possibility with the divided Tory Party obviously set upon remaining that way, but the in-fighting has to stop. The electorate are not the same as they were in 1997, and won't be fooled again by crypto-Tories posing as Socialists.

sickchip wrote:Excellent statement from Corbyn today.

I hope Boris does become Tory leader because I can't see him being popular anywhere north of London, and even better if he drags Gove and IDS into his team. I've got a feeling the Tories are about to mess up by making Boris leader.

Now if the meddling Blairites and anti-Corbyn members of the PLP can just shut up and stop moaning, Labour might have a decent chance of being elected to govern at the next election.

I agree. In my thinking Boris is a very erudite comedian. A politician? Prime Minister? Help. I see, too, a lot of millionaires lost a LOT of money. Oh dear!

Tories in fighting, and in disarray. So the Blairites in the PLP decide it's best that the Labour party should also be thrown into disarray, rather than showing a strong united front. Don't these effing tools want Labour to win an election and govern?

There's Margeret Hodge forwarding a motion of no confidence in Corbyn. She represents Barking.....and guess what - Barking voted Brexit. Should she be sacked for failing to persuade her constituents to vote remain? ....along with all the other Labour mps whose constituencies voted leave. Hodge, Hilary Benn and co are utterly pathetic and out of touch........do they imagine they have a candidate for leadership who is going to be better, and win more votes, than Corbyn. Are these shithouses Tory plants?

There really are some utter tossers in the PLP.

I'm not a left winger and not getting involved in debates.

Just one thing to say. There are many politicians of all parties who failed to get the constituents to vote 'their' way.
'Ordinary' people see the way the EU has influenced their lives and they don't like it. Whatever the politics are of a Government there are those who don't like it, and vote against. This vote wasn't ''look what the EU has done FOR you' but 'look what the EU has done TO you'. Not 'what WE can do' but 'what will the EU ALLOW us to do'.
They see, rightly or wrongly, that Brexit leaves us free to make our own decisions not realising that there is no such freedom. The probability is that we will still be able to trade with Europe - but under their conditions. Trade with other countries will be vital, and we may have to accept restrictions/terms not of our choosing. We will have no choice. This country is financially running in debts that are unsustainable.
Austerity hurts those least able to cope with it. Spending borrowed money to boost the economy is only adding to that debt.
We have a health service that will never be sustainable by public finance. We have an industrial base owned by the world and his mate. We have utilities under control of other nations companies.

The financial purse is empty - let's go to Wonga.

What we need is a National Government t6o come together without party politics, and agree a plan to see us through a difficult period.
Impossible? Of course it is. All sides are too entrenched in party policies.

Now I'll sit back and put my tin hat on. No I won't, I'll peel potatoes for my dinner.

sickchip wrote:Tories in fighting, and in disarray. So the Blairites in the PLP decide it's best that the Labour party should also be thrown into disarray, rather than showing a strong united front. Don't these effing tools want Labour to win an election and govern?

There's Margeret Hodge forwarding a motion of no confidence in Corbyn. She represents Barking.....and guess what - Barking voted Brexit. Should she be sacked for failing to persuade her constituents to vote remain? ....along with all the other Labour mps whose constituencies voted leave. Hodge, Hilary Benn and co are utterly pathetic and out of touch........do they imagine they have a candidate for leadership who is going to be better, and win more votes, than Corbyn. Are these shithouses Tory plants?

There really are some utter tossers in the PLP.

What they would absolutely hate is victory for a Labour Party representing working people rather than their own careers. They are on a hiding to nothing in that if they manage to knife Mr Corbyn they - and the Party - are finished, but I expect they hope to get a constituency by backing Boris the Turk. I think they are on a hiding to nothing there too.

Penderyn

What they would absolutely hate is victory for a Labour Party representing working people rather than their own careers. They are on a hiding to nothing in that if they manage to knife Mr Corbyn they - and the Party - are finished, but I expect they hope to get a constituency by backing Boris the Turk. I think they are on a hiding to nothing there too.
.

Yes. Well put.

There was never going to be any rapprochement between the true Socialist ambitions of Jeremy Corbyn, and the self-seeking Blairites in his shadow cabinet who think that aping the Tories is the only way to get elected. Voters in the referendum have shown clearly what they thought of self-seeking intentions.

Now the ground has been cleared by resignations it will either enable a truly Socialist Labour Party to gain from the Tories' confusion - or ensure a right-wing Boris government.

They are really a tearaway group from Labour, and should be treat as such, booted out of the party so they can go away and form their own party.

They clearly think they have a better way, better ideas, and more chance of getting elected than Jeremy, so if they form their own little party they should have no bother winning over the electorate........after all we all love Hilary Benn and Tristram Hunt - a pair of nailed on vote winners.

They could even call their party New New Labour.

You know that myth the Tories like to perpetuate.....Labour mess things up, and the Tories come in and fix things?

Is this the Tories fixing things? Country in turmoil, no leadership, likely economic catastrophe impending, prices of goods to rise, jobs thrown into uncertainty, no real plan for leaving the EU, the United Kingdom disunited - with Scotland likely to leave the union....and possibly Ireland, a referendum result that has encouraged/spurred on UKIP/EDL bigotry, etc.

What a shit storm these Tory chancers have created.

Oh wait! No! I'm sorry! I now realise it is all Corbyn's fault.

It's just really hard not to be angry and bitter - after all, we all saw this possibility coming and we've all, from whichever side, deplored the split in the Labour party.

What I will really struggle to forgive or forget is the timing of this particular uprising - just when a 'political thinker' (which is what the right-wing of the Labour party would like us to think they are) would appreciate the virtue of showing a united front they have decided to stage a very public revolt, which will have the effect of distracting the public's attention from the Tory meltdown and giving the Tories the chance to get their act together - you might almost think Hodge, Ben and all the other rebels were in the pay of Linton Crosby

boatlady,

I've already said it, but if these rebels get their way and oust Corbyn to replace him with one of their own that will be me, and I suspect many others, finished with the Labour party.


.....they seem think the electorate going to support or vote for a Labour party ran by the likes of Hilary Benn, Tristram Hunt, etc??? Are they really so out of touch?

The poor deluded fools!

What a massive mistake these opportunist careerist backstabbers have made.......sitting around plotting this for months, waiting for their moment to strike; and now, if they succeed, they're going to find out their Machiavellian scheming has been to no avail; because they don't appeal to the electorate at all. All they are really doing is destroying the Labour party - maybe that's what they really want?

It's difficult not to believe some of these traitors to Labour have not been working in cahoots with the Tories and media in facilitating the endless stream of anti-Corbyn propaganda we've witnessed ever since he was elected.

Hilary Benn, Tristram Hunt and the other assorted PLP twats only idea for getting elected is to imitate the Tory party. They are pathetic charlatans with no resolve, integrity, or backbone and are prepared to drop beliefs/principles/ideals on a whim.

It shouldn't be forgotten in all this angst about the 'traitors' within, that too many working class folk preferred to follow the right-wing press's exhortations rather than rely upon the judgement of Corbyn - who, apparently, was in favour of remaining within the EU , but only to the tune of about 70% of his being.

A leader has to show leadership - and , more importantly, to be . lfollowed. It's no good blaming the so-called 'Blairites' for the fact that Corbyn himself did not provide the inspiration to all those ordinary [people who should have been persuaded to vote for remaining.

I can see the attraction of Corbyn for some who detest the Tories, but don't run away with the idea that he performed admirably or persuasively in the referendum debate - he didn't . And by some considerable margin.

When next is he going to be found wanting...?

Phil,

How hard were other Labour mps trying to inspire their constituencies to vote remain? Did Margaret Hodge inspire her constituents in Barking to vote Remain? How many of these Labour mps persuaded Labour voters in their constituencies to vote remain?

Perhaps all those who didn't manage to do that should also be sacked from their posts for not providing the inspiration to get their constituents to vote remain? Or perhaps it's easier for them to blame it all on Corbyn?

Besides that, perhaps the EU referendum is just being used as the excuse.........the Labour coup is solely about the Chilcot report on the Iraq war being published in 10 days. Corbyn wants Blair tried as a war criminal. Blairites want him gone before he can push for this. They've been planning this for some time - the referendum provided them with an excuse, and opportunity, to strike.

Trading suspended in Barclays and RBS as UK bank shares crash

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/trading-suspended-in-barclays-and-rbs-as-uk-bank-shares-crash/ar-AAhFdVW?li=BBoPMmp

Move along now please. Nothing to see here. Boris will fix it.

" Or perhaps it's easier for them to blame it all on Corbyn?"

It would certainly be easier for Corbyn to blame anyone but himself.

There is no one person responsible, but Corbyn - as leader -did not provide a rallying point for support to remain. The apparent desire to oust him is not solely to do with the EU Referendum - there are just too many people who believe that he is a liability in terms of electoral success.

If it is to be those people who are thrown out and he and his dwindling band of followers to stay, then fair enough. But there will be inevitable consequences, come a General Election...

Phil,

A bit like the warning/predictions we were given about Labour collapsing at the by elections.

There is no evidence that Corbyn will fare disastrously at a general election. It is all just opinion coming from those with an anti-Corbyn agenda.

I believe he would get his message across in an election campaign. His statement/speech a couple of days ago was excellent......obviously given hardly any coverage. During an election campaign the media would have no choice but to give him coverage......and he would win people over. A pale Tory version of Labour that these 'rebels' will no doubt replace him with will have no appeal at all - why vote for that when you can vote for the real thing and vote Tory?

We also have to factor in - who will be leading the Tories? I hope it's Boris because the London bubble may think he's popular.......but around the country he certainly isn't.

sickchip

I respect your view. One of us will be wrong - and, if it is me, I shall not be unhappy...

The tories in the Labour Party have been waiting to betray us, as many of us have said often enough, and now they see their chance to destroy the Party utterly. Faced with a General Election, Split at Once! Deselect, deselect, deselect!

I keep hearing this about how Corbyn has failed to show leadership and I feel a bit puzzled really - it seems to me that he has completely led by example in terms of his interactions with the government, the public and the press.
I note that there was a very strong vote in favour of remain in his constituency despite what many will describe as his lukewarm espousal of the cause, while others in other constituencies have not managed to convince their constituents.

Being an MP is a matter of showing leadership and that leadership is often in the form of being accountable, honest and hard working, leading by example.

It seems to me that the 'leadership' people claim to want from Corbyn is more what I would term demagoguery - flashy speeches, lots of soundbites, 'wearing your suit and doing up your tie' - we've had that from Cameron et al and look where it got us. I prefer to follow the lead of an honest man like Corbyn who leads by example rather than the 'do as I say, not as I do' philosophy of the likes of Cameron.

If the right wing of the PLP succeed in ousting Corbyn I think many rank and file members will just give up on Labour and the party will disappear

For many years we have been bombarded by the media with the disadvantages of the EU. Time after time the regulations laid upon industry, goods and individuals have been shown to be against the reasonable running of many businesses and even against commonsense.
You expect MP's in a few short weeks to convince those voters of the advantages of the EU? It doesn't work that way.
If the Tories managed to bring this country into liquidity and to prosper, you would still find fault because of what you have experienced in the past. Would you vote Tory if Britain were prosperous under the Tories?

If everyone in Britain were prosperous and having a fair chance to improve their circumstances, I would vote for whatever government can bring that about - in my lifetime, I can't remember the Tories ever providing any kind of level playing field - or even trying to - if they ever do, I'm their woman

Hello!
Thank you for your invitation this morning, Mr White. No doubt you anticipated that I might have a point of view on the shanannigans currently turning the country on its head. Here is my 2-penn'orth: UKIP is a Right Wing fabrication of a Party with the aim of gathering in lost Labour voters whose industrial heritage has been lost by Labour Governments as much as Tory ones. Farage has ambitions to be Hitler and the Right Wing press is willing to allow him free rein in order to protect the rich whose money is protected by the QE which supports the Bank of England and from there all the other banks which would otherwise have gone to the wall in 2008. Osborne was doing okay with all this until the daft idea of a Referendum which was not intended to vote Leave but merely to lead to UKIP supporters affiliated to Britain First to committing acts of violence as shown in the Mail's photos of Britain First violence camps in Wales.

The Right Wing of Labour has also been manipulated by Hansard's Nudge Unit to disassociate from the elected leader because they too have been bought by lobbyists and look to gain from TTIP and privatisation of the NHS. Beyond that there is also the small matter of ISIS and the need for a concerted military response in the not too distand future. Corbyn has been excluded from discussions for fear that his honesty mght jeopardise national security. The international situation is wholly embodied in Blair as he has negotiated every agreement that defines all the battle lines across the Middle East. He is therefore necessary at this time as his knowledge and connections are irreplaceable.

Hansard's Nudge Unit has been responsible for the divide and rule success of this Tory government's 'othering' of social infrastructure providers and those who need them. The threat to the BBC is real and the propaganda machine news and political spin is the price of keeping it as our national broadcaster.

Corbyn offers a real alternative and so he is a threat to the financial institutions. As Rothschild once said - it doesn't matter what laws a government makes as long as he controls the money - and Corbyn isn't playing ball. It is the Neo-Liberal system itself that is creaking and close to collapse. Iceland dealt with the risks honourably and quickly by nationalising its banks and rooting out the casino banking fraudsters, jailing 26 of its bankers for crimes. Cameron has protected bankers from prosecution and the media silence has guaranteed Britain's success internationally up until now. Total financial collapse is not a good prospect and Corbyn will need to take advice from Carney and the Bank of England. The Mail called for Corbyn to be murdered yesterday. Farage called for violence if the country voted Remain. He hadn't anticipated the Leave vote but he is still trying to maintain that momentum. He is a very dangerus man.

Manipulation through the media is very effective and in the control of widely networked institutions from which Corbyn is excluded such as the Adam Smith Institute and the Fabian Society which are Think Tanks for the government under the auspices of monetary necessity. And money is necessary. We the people have voted to take EU funding away from the poorest areas of Britain. To say we have been manipulated is of course to state the obvious. What anyone can possibly do about it - who knows? Teresa May will put the muddle back to a semblance of order and Hilary Clinton will ensure Business as Usual across the pond. The alternative is just too much uncertainty.

It would however be nice if Corbyn could be included in negotiations with the EU. He could even get the Reform Agenda on board and agree us a way not to leave if they let him join them in the discussions.

The current obvious disarray amongst members of the Tory Party might have been a signal to an Opposition to unite with a view to presenting a credible alternative government, but the Labour Party which lost the last two general elections seems to think they actually had a winning formula before the advent of a truly Socialist Leader - who they now want to eject.

Infected presumably by the shooting-self-in-foot glee of Brexit voters at having created chaos, Blairite MPs are now planning a vote of no confidence. Ordinary members of the Labour Party might have more "confidence" in such a procedure if the plotters had not chosen to have a secret ballot.

Surely Corbyn has to go now! After the England team suffered a humiliating defeat to Iceland I believe Corbyn has to go. The fact that he couldn't inspire the team to victory is down to him. The blame lies entirely at his door.

Surely Corbyn has to go now! After the England team suffered a humiliating defeat to Iceland I believe Corbyn has to go. The fact that he couldn't inspire the team to victory is down to him. The blame lies entirely at Corbyn's door.
.

Watching these treacherous PLP members crawling out from under their stones to spout the, obviously planned, line that "Jeremy is a good and decent man, but he cannot lead us to victory blah blah blah", it strikes me that I wouldn't trust, or give my vote, to a single one of them.

They are so desperate to get Corbyn out that Chris Bryant is even resorting to concocting outright lies - claiming Corbyn voted leave. Chris Bryant.....hang your head in shame; how do you sleep?

Well, they have clearly been planning to destroy the Labour Party for a long time, but aren't they a clumsy lot of assassins!

It's been very quiet on here - considering all that's going on. I'm assuming everyone is sick as a chip.

Just watching events unfold - can't really believe what's happening - wtf

The PLP might seem to have a Death Wish if you link historical actions like Michael Foot's so-called "Longest suicide note in history" and Kinnock's idiosyncratic staging of an American-style election rally (Oh Yeah!!) replete with triumphal soundtrack. Both now eclipsed by its failure to understand that to succeed in Politics you have to kick the governing party when it's down. Resigning en masse is an unusual way to create a credible alternative.

I think this proves what Labour under Corbyn means; and proves that those who are attempting to remove him will return us to a watered down Tory version of Labour:

http://labourlist.org/2015/07/48-mps-break-whip-to-vote-against-welfare-bill-full-list/

Well done to Jeremy and the others who are trying to stick up for the poorest, and most vulnerable; and shame on you others in the PLP.

It is a truly wonderful chance to save the party from these tory puppets!