Was God creating Satan a good idea?

Was God creating Satan a good idea?

Eden and creation seemed to be going along quite well for God and man until Satan was cast into Eden by God. God would have been in charge of who he allowed into the Garden of Eden. After all, God would have kept a firm control of who entered his new day care so as to insure the wellbeing of Adam and Eve.

Being all knowing, God already knew that Satan, with God’s own power of deception, would successfully tempt Eve to eat of the tree of all possible knowledge.

It almost seems as if God wanted us to and planned for us to fail. Perhaps that is why the Church called Adams sin a happy fault and necessary sin.

Christian dogma, the opposite of Jewish dogma, has Satan as God’s nemesis and arch rival for the souls of mankind. God’s foreknowledge would have told him that Satan would cause him to condemn the vast majority of his beloved souls to hell and death and thus play into Satan’s hands. This to me seems like God creating a huge amount of grief for himself and mankind, unless God truly wanted man to fail, --- and sin was a happy fault and necessary sin as the Church says.

Did Adam and Eve actually do what God really wanted them to do, and was God creating Satan a good idea?

We are told by the Church and scriptures to emulate God.

Should all parents do as God did and create a situation of failure for their children so as to insure that they too have the happy fault and necessary sin that makes them fail?

Why was it important for God to insure that we failed?

Regards
DL

According to the bible it is believed man can steer away by the choice of God's way from the disasters as you mentioned. A Christian perspective can say that God has the power to simply turn his head away,for a brief moment, not seeing the result of a current event. Just to see what choices Adam and Eve would take. Of course God would know eventually, when he wants to.

Sorry to interrupt, but isn't "The Devil" a human construct?

Jsmythe wrote:

According to the bible it is believed man can steer away by the choice of God's way from the disasters as you mentioned.

Apologies. Could you expand on this as it leaves me scratching my head.

A Christian perspective can say that God has the power to simply turn his head away, for a brief moment, not seeing the result of a current event.

That is not as I understand things. God is always Omni-potent and all knowing and cannot be forgetful.

Can you offer chapter and verse on this.

Just to see what choices Adam and Eve would take. Of course God would know eventually, when he wants to.

I see it as God always knowing the choice they would make from the moment he decided to put Satan and the talking serpent in the Garden.

Regards
DL

oftenwrong wrote:Sorry to interrupt, but isn't "The Devil" a human construct?  

Yes. Just as all the Gods are.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:Why was it important for God to insure that we failed?

God wanted us to fail, as you say, because then he could show us we should listen to him.

God sent his son so that we can see the forgiving nature of god.

God created satan for a place where all the evil doers need to go.

Charlatan wrote:God created satan for a place where all the evil doers need to go.

Why would God create evil doers?

As to God sending his son, as above so below.

If you thought that a death was needed for the atonement of sin, would you send your son or would you step up yourself?

Should a son bury his father or should a father bury his son?

If you are fearful of those question then you will refuse my invitation to argue for substitutionary atonement.

Let me give you what this Bishop thinks followed by my argument against you just in case you would like to continue to argue your immoral views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

Human sacrifice is evil and God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

Those trying to profit from that evil are evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL

It is morally correct to allow who you want onto your private property. it is good to build a shelter for those that you do not accept into your home, yes?

If there is no god, or, if god is evil, what difference does it make? what outcome could it have - would you all of a sudden begin worshiping the devil?

??

The issue was substitutionary punishment.

If hell and death are the best alternative shelter God can come up with then he is more Satan like than God like.

As to me, I do not worship any God as that would make me an idol worshiper.

As a Gnostic Christian, I am a perpetual seeker after God. God defined as the best rules and laws to live life by.

I think of God somewhat as they did in ancient days before the world was cursed with idol worshiping Christians and Muslims.

Please give this clip of my favorite scholar a listen to the common sense of the ancients.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Regards
DL

God exists whether we are here or not. if the energy - as we all know energy can change forms - had not created the sun, then the earth, and so forth, maybe very slowly, maybe through ages, well, it is in order this 'genesis thing.' this led to the energy forming 'god' and 'god' forming the solar system we are in. it stands to reason we are not alone too, mind you.

So, if we were to observe that this energy can consume us with karma, where our own energies are reflected back at us, self serving people will feel hungry, as they are having their energies reflected back at them, yes? this is heaven and hell, to me, now - i just made it up!

I hope this is what you are looking for.

I was looking for a mind that could follow a topic.

I did not find one.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am,
Humans have a very limited understanding of life in general, and even less regarding the intentions of God.

If God had made everything subject to his wishes with no individuality or choices all would be robotic.

It is the fault of those who have chosen the wrong course, including Satan, that has resulted in the present state of the earth and it's inhabitants.

Just consider what the Bible says will be the state of the earths inhabitans prior to God taking his revenge on Satan.

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,
                    Humans have a very limited understanding of life in general, and even less regarding the intentions of God.

                    If God had made everything subject to his wishes with no individuality or choices all would be robotic.

                    It is the fault of those who have chosen the wrong course, including Satan, that has resulted in the present state of the earth and it's inhabitants.

                    Just consider what the Bible says will be the state of the earths inhabitans prior to God taking his revenge on Satan.      

To your choice argument.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

You blame Satan for the evil you see yet did not speak to why God insured our fall in Eden by putting Satan there.

Care to comment on this issues in the O.P. instead of deflecting.

God had the freedom of choice you allude to. Why did he choose to have A & E fall?

Regards
DL

What is it you are hoping to do with this thread? create doubt of god in some way? how is that going to help anyone?

I am following your bibles good advice.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Is truth not helpful to everyone?

How is your eliminating the doubt that your scriptures say we should have going to help anyone?

Regards
DL

Well, the law says not to murder people. if we question it, what answer are we looking for?

So, what brings you to ask a 'question' where you arrive at these 'answers?'

Wait a minute, i know, you are trying to get people to follow you by telling them they are blameless! wow.

I see that you did not want to answer my simple questions. You might wonder why.

Where did I say people were blameless?

I said that we are all blameworthy and that is why a God would treat us all the same way by either condemning us all or forgiving us all. As the creator of us all, he would not be justified in condemning his own creative force.

Regards
DL

If you are answering the most recent message on a thread, there is no need to copy/paste it, just continue the conversation, please. We don't need to read the same thing three or four times.

Thank you for your understanding.

I am sure that when God created Satan, along with numerous other spirit ceatures, he wished that all would enjoy the numerous options open to them, there was no need for them to deviate from the right path.

As I have said many times previously, God did not create robots, he gave all the choice of how they acted according to all the circumstances.

Was God wrong to create Satan? anyone who challenges God's actions is unable to grasp his powers and understanding.

Did you read what I put to you above?

If so your reply is is really stupid.

How could Eve not deviate from the right path when God insured she would by putting Satan and the talking serpent right beside her when he knew that doing so would cause the fall?

Regards
DL

Eve had a choice, just as you have a choice wether you behave in an appropriate manner, or deviate into childish behaviour.

You just cannot understand the fact that Satan was the one who tempted Eve and not God.

Had God stopped Eve from wrong doing then Satan could have called foul.

God did not put Satan anywhere, he was a free agent, after being created.

If Satan was a free agent, She would just have returned to heaven after being cast into Eden. But this is a red hearing.

God controls all things and all was planned in the beginning.

God had to know or had to put Satan right where Eve was even before giving Satan the power to deceive the whole world.

I ask again. Why did your God insure the fall by putting or allowing Satan access to Eve?

A less pathetic apology than your last would be nice. Or is that your best?

Regards
DL

I would prefer to discuss everything in a friendly manner irrespective of how far we are apart in what we believe.

I can understand your approach but have to disagree in terms relating to what God's intentions and Satan's disrespect for those intentions were.

I believe all God's creations relating to beings were given the freedom to choose right from wrong, one may argue that why should there be the opportunity to do wrong, however, God did indeed provide everything that was necessary for humans to have a perfect life if everything provided was treated in the manner intended.

Satan was also given freedom of choice and his choice was to confront God's authority and in doing so tempted Eve to disobey God's advice.

You can liken this to a family with several children, all brought up to be good in every respect, yet history tells us that from say five children, you will get good bad and indiffernt results, this is because all have choice, just as all humans have, and just as Satan and all other spirit creatures have, or they would be robots.

just to clarify a point.

The serpent was in fact Satan, who had taken on the form of a serpent, which indicates that Satan has extreem powers which he thinks will be above those of his creator, a bad decision.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Apologists of your calibre is why Christianity is dying.

Regards
DL

I believe Jesus never sinned and neither did Job.

So the posibility is there for all not to sin.

We all have choices, and the present state of the world, and many of it's human inhabitants, is clear proof that mankind has made many of the wrong choices.

If we did not have the ability to choose we would be robots and programmed as such.

I believe in God for many reasons, many being personal experiences but mainly the fact that the Bible offers us a way out of the mess humanity has created.

I note you have nothing to offer as an explanation of how and why the universe, and the earth in particular, along with all it's creations came about.

I have considered all the theories and none make any sense when the actual facts involved are considered, if you accept God, then all things become clear.

polyglide wrote:I believe Jesus never sinned and neither did Job.

So the posibility is there for all not to sin.

We all have choices, and the present state of the world, and many of it's human inhabitants, is clear proof that mankind has made many of the wrong choices.

If  we did not have the ability to choose we would be robots and programmed as such.

I believe in God for many reasons, many being personal experiences but mainly the fact that the Bible offers us a way out of the mess humanity has created.

I note you have nothing to offer as an explanation of how and why the universe, and the earth in particular, along with all it's creations came about.

I have considered all the theories and none make any sense when the actual facts involved are considered, if you accept God, then all things become clear.

Your own scriptures say we are all born sinners, and you contradict it by saying that some of us are not born that way while having no examples.

If all is clear to you then explain why we are all set to default to sin.

Regards
DL

The Bible says clearly that Jesus never sinned, thus making it possible for all, although it may be tough, to do the same.

regrds.

polyglide wrote:The Bible says clearly that Jesus never sinned, thus making it possible for all, although it may be tough, to do the same.

                                                        regrds.

Yet these two quotes indicate that Jesus did sin.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

If all you are going to do is lie to me then do not bother with me.

Regards
DL

If you read ALL Hebrews you will find that it says God did not sin as in parts of John 12:7.8 etc;

You can imply that because Jesus was tempted he was open to sin but that is a diffrent matter,


Regards.

It is obvious that as we have different opinions regarding life in general and religion in particular, one will look for everything to support our beliefs and the other for alternatives or reasons to dispute them.

Because I believe that the Bible tells us what is right from wrong, and the best way in which to conduct our lives, does not mean that I judge those who feel and act in a different manner.

If the Bible says something is wrong then as a Christian I have to accept the fact that it is wrong.

The reason I feel the Bible gives all the answers to creation is because there is no other creditable alternative.

If I attempted to judge all those who do not observe the Bibles teachings, then there would be no one left.

We all fail mankind in one way or another and one can believe that something is wrong but not judge.

Where's Sheldon these days? I see GIA is still kicking around. Not posting to the Amazon forums any more? Unfortunately, it's dawned on me that the religious bigots on that forum are a bunch of emotionally needy, mentally challenged/retarded/ill effineejits so I've gone off them.

So what are we talking about here then?

snowyflake. Good to see you here. Dr Sheldon became fed up with one of our posters on this board and took off some time ago, and sadly I haven't yet been able to persuade him to come back. He was certainly one of our more intelligent and articulate posters, and the forum is weaker without him.

As to your "religious bigots", isn't that just par for the course? Either you believe things for which there is no sensible or rational explanation, or you don't. We're currently seeing a similar manifestation of such stupidity with regard to the EU referendum, where it doesn't seem to matter how much tripe Boris Johnson talks, or how many lies the Brexit mob tell us about our monthly contribution or the state of Turkey's application to join, nothing will dissuade the believers.

With my best wishes.

The question is very clear to anyone reading it, Was God creating Satan a good idea.

If you do not believe in Satan then how can you have an opinion?.

Bigotory manifests itself in many ways, regarding the opinions of others in the manner some do, wether they agree or disagree, is the most obvious.

Ivan,
Dr, Sheldon stopped posting because he could not understand the dictionaries definitions of certain words, and nor could he accept that one can be directly opposed to something and yet not judge all that it may involve.

Political observations should be kept to the appropriate sites.

polyglide wrote:If you read ALL Hebrews you will find that it says God did not sin as in parts of John 12:7.8 etc;

You can imply that because Jesus was tempted he was open to sin but that is a diffrent matter,


                                            Regards.

Temptation was not inferred. Disobedience was.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:

Because I believe that the Bible tells us what is right from wrong, and the best way in which to conduct our lives, does not mean that I judge those who feel and act in a different manner.

If the Bible says something is wrong then as a Christian I have to accept the fact that it is wrong.

Your bible tells you, in the King David story that it is just to torture and kill a baby because of anger at the father. It is telling you that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is right.

Do you agree with it?

While on the subject of right and wrong.
Your God almost always kills while almost never curing those he thinks defective.

Is that the right think for a God to do or the wrong thing for a God to do?

Regards
DL

snowyflake wrote:Where's Sheldon these days? I see GIA is still kicking around. Not posting to the Amazon forums any more? Unfortunately, it's dawned on me that the religious bigots on that forum are a bunch of emotionally needy, mentally challenged/retarded/ill effineejits so I've gone off them.

So what are we talking about here then?

I imagine that our friend Sheldon has decided to ignore polyglide because he recognizes a mindost to fantasy and the supernatural.

It is impossible to have a decent discussion with such a lost mind.

I do not come around here that often anymore for the same reason.

I still go to Amazon but have been busier at more intelligent sites. Intelligent in quotations that is.

I do not disagree with your diagnosis of the true theists.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:Was God creating Satan a good idea?

We must hold firm that everything God does is right and righteous.

We can not second guess God, but we must always second guess our own doubts, and our own interpretations.

Greatest I am wrote:
Eden and creation seemed to be going along quite well for God and man until Satan was cast into Eden by God. God would have been in charge of who he allowed into the Garden of Eden. After all, God would have kept a firm control of who entered his new day care so as to insure the wellbeing of Adam and Eve.  

Only very extreme people insist that the story was literally accurate or true, as it is obviously just a metaphor to relay the important information.

Also you need to understand that Jesus is the word (the spokesman) and the mediator for God, and so the ""voice of God"" walking through the garden was Jesus and not the Father God as the two are not the same.

Greatest I am wrote:
Being all knowing, God already knew that Satan, with God’s own power of deception, would successfully tempt Eve to eat of the tree of all possible knowledge.

The Father God knew but the Son-God in the garden did not know.

The true war is between Christ and Satan only, as the Father God is not possible to challenge.  

The tree of knowledge is far more complicated then most people dare to research.

Greatest I am wrote:
It almost seems as if God wanted us to and planned for us to fail. Perhaps that is why the Church called Adams sin a happy fault and necessary sin.

No.

Mankind started out as animals and barbarians so every step was an uphill climb and the various falls are what all children do as they slowly mature.

Greatest I am wrote:
Christian dogma, the opposite of Jewish dogma, has Satan as God’s nemesis and arch rival for the souls of mankind. God’s foreknowledge would have told him that Satan would cause him to condemn the vast majority of his beloved souls to hell and death and thus play into Satan’s hands. This to me seems like God creating a huge amount of grief for himself and mankind, unless God truly wanted man to fail, --- and sin was a happy fault and necessary sin as the Church says.

The churches are all wrong, and there is no going to any Hell, as hell was the Greek religious idea which did not belong in Christianity.

True Christ doctrine has it that every person gets saved, just as the earth too gets saved, and even Satan the Devil gets saved in the end.

And it is not necessary to view Satan as lost or as sinful because the Apostle Paul said otherwise = Through Satan the spirit is SAVED = See here 1 Corinthians 5:5.

Greatest I am wrote:
Why would God create evil doers?

God is saving the evil doers - not creating evil doers.

Humanity was already wild and barbaric long before the real work of salvation ever began.

Greatest I am wrote:
If you thought that a death was needed for the atonement of sin, would you send your son or would you step up yourself?

People say that Jesus died to atone for sin, but the text actually says that Christ paid the penalty which is a very different meaning.

It could not be just words as life requires action.

Greatest I am wrote:
Human sacrifice is evil and God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

Those trying to profit from that evil are evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

Humanity required the sacrifice from God - it was not God doing the demanding.

And humanity continues onward crying for more and more sacrifices.

Greatest I am wrote:
For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

I agree - all of that is morally repugnant, and immoral.

But then why did you not take the next step??? seeing that as morally repugnant then that doctrine was never true and it did not come from God.

God was not wrong in that, and Jesus was not wrong in that, but people claiming to know were wrong in it.

As far as I am concerned the only mistake God has ever made ( one can argue of course that a perfect being cannot make a mistake) was in giving free will to all his creations.