“December 7th 1941, a date which will live in infamy”

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:56 am

Franklin Delano Roosevelt, speaking to the Congress of the United States of America, December 8th 1941:

“Mr. Vice President, Mr. Speaker, members of the Senate, and of the House of Representatives, yesterday, December 7th 1941, a date which will live in infamy, the United States of America was suddenly and was deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan…”

Click any text to hear the voice of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:10 am

Seventy years ago, “December 7th 1941, a date which will live in infamy, the United States of America was suddenly and was deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.”

One day later, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, asked Congress for a declaration of war against the Empire of Japan. Within days, Germany declare war on the United States, the United Kingdom declared war on the Empire of Japan, and the United States declared war on Germany; thus was formed the greatest alliance for good in the history of the world, the United Kingdom, its Commonwealth Allies, and the United States.

Our numerous differences aside, we share on both sides of the Atlantic and into the South Pacific a common commitment to decency and democracy, forged in the fires of the horror of World War II (ask veterans), and purchased with the blood of British, Canadian, Australian, New Zealander, and American soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines.

Lest we forget.

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:44 am

The nature of the enemy:

The Nanking Massacre (Nanjing Massacre, the Rape of Nanking). Click to view wiki article.

by oftenwrong Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:23 am

Can anyone explain why the Japanese High Command could have been so incredibly stupid as to attack the ONLY World Power capable of opposing their (already well advanced) plans to control the whole of South-East Asia?

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:52 am

oftenwrong wrote:Can anyone explain why the Japanese High Command could have been so incredibly stupid as to attack the ONLY World Power capable of opposing their (already well advanced) plans to control the whole of South-East Asia?

Can any one explain why Hitler attacked Russia, instead of Britain, we all know what happened to Napoleon when he attacked Russia.

I doubt if anyone can answer those questions, i suppose when someone has a few successes, they think the have become invincible. Distance and snow, the only obstacle for invasion of Britain was 21 miles of water and the Royal Navy, must have found that too daunting. Has Julia Roberts said in Pretty Woman, big mistake.

by bobby Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:11 pm

the only obstacle for invasion of Britain was 21 miles of water and the Royal Navy,

And of course Captain Mainwering, Corporal Jones and private Pike.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:23 pm

bobby2 wrote: the only obstacle for invasion of Britain was 21 miles of water and the Royal Navy,

And of course Captain Mainwering, Corporal Jones and private Pike.

You might be jokeing Bobby, but the Dads Army was something to be feared, a lot were survivers of the war against the Kaiser, 1914 to1918. As corporal Jones says, cold steel, they don't like it up them. Our Home Guard out on manoeuvers,(training) was ordered to capture a country house on a big estate used by the regular army. Captured it with out any problems caught the troops with their trousers down (literally) and the cooks peeling potatoes. Plenty of red faces on the army's side, and laughter on the Home Guards side, the only other responsible job they had to do was guard a Wellington bomber that had crash landed 50 yards from the village. Now one was allowed to get close to it, the pilot had done well to get it down on a cricket field, spoilt the pich though.

by **Phil Hornby** Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:33 pm

bobby2 wrote: the only obstacle for invasion of Britain was 21 miles of water and the Royal Navy,

And of course Captain Mainwering, Corporal Jones and private Pike.

There was also the frightening prospect that Vera Lynn and Gracie Fields might have been called upon to sing at the approaching enemy...

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:33 pm

bobby2 wrote:
the only obstacle for invasion of Britain was 21 miles of water and the Royal Navy…

… and Fighter Command.

15 September 1940: “Where are the reserves? “Sir, there are none.”

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:46 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:
bobby2 wrote: the only obstacle for invasion of Britain was 21 miles of water and the Royal Navy,

And of course Captain Mainwering, Corporal Jones and private Pike.

There was also the frightening prospect that Vera Lynn and Gracie Fields might have been called upon to sing at the approaching enemy...

Dame Vera was a very potent weapon against the Third Reich, not a secret one i might add, no one kept up peoples morals up more the the forces sweetheart. Gracie had the biggest Aspridistra in the world, the germans had a good right to fear her, she would have thrown it at them.

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:00 pm

jackthelad wrote:
the Dads Army was something to be feared

15 September 2010: After asking a congregation of Christians to join me in prayer for, and in remembrance of the RAF aviators who saved the world seventy years prior in the skies over England, a dear English lady related a story. She had been a child during the Battle o Britain and the Blitz, living somewhere out in the English countryside (my “command” of English geography is horrible). She and her mother watched s Spitfire pilot shoot an ME-109 out of the sky. As the German fighter spiraled into the ground, a parachute popped open; the Luftwaffe pilot had ejected and was floating own, apparently alive and uninjured. The German’s downward trajectory would land him within a short walk from where mother and daughter watched.

The mother casually walked over to the spot and joined a few other English ladies who had also observed the happenings to await the parachutist’s eminent arrival. As the Luftwaffe pilot touched down, somewhat entangled in his parachute lines, the assembled ladies drew close and beat him to death with shovels, hoes, rakes, and other implements with which they had been working the soil. They didn’t report the incident to the authorities.

“… there are bitter weeds in England…”

“… we shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender…”

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:14 pm

Rare, Unseen Photos: Aftermath of Pearl Harbor (click to view)

by bobby Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:25 pm

In all honesty, I do not believe for one minute that the home guard would have stopped any invasion. The home guard was an Idea of Churchills purely to boost morale, and make some members of the public beleve they where doing something for the War effort, very much akin to giving all of your spare saucepans, to build spitfires, yet another ruse to bolster public spirit, as the metal used to fabricate saucepans was wholly unsuitable to be turned into spitfires. Thosands of people gave up their pots and pans, and even ripped out their metal railings, none went into the making of spitfires.
The home guard in some respects, where more a hindrants than a help, they would set up road blocks and stop absolutely everyone passing, these where people from their own communities and well known to them. A Doctor on an emergency call, arriving at a checkpoint in his own village, was ordered to stop. the GP recognised the make believe jobsworth soldier so thought he could just keep going, as he went through the checkpoint, the guard who was a patient of the doctors, oppened fire. I'm sorry but I can not remember the outcome, but maybe some amongst you will have seen the same documentary as I did on TV some while ago.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:33 pm

Rock says.
As the Luftwaffe pilot touched down, somewhat entangled in his parachute lines, the assembled ladies drew close and beat him to death with shovels, hoes, rakes, and other implements with which they had been working the soil.

That would be the Womens Land Army, girls who had volunteered to work the land. All the young male farm hands had joined the armed forces. You ommitted pitch forks Rock, cold steel, has corporal Jones would say, they don't like it up them.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:45 pm

Bobby says.
Thosands of people gave up their pots and pans, and even ripped out their metal railings, none went into the making of spitfires

The metal wasn't collected to make Spitfires, it was collected for the war effort to make lots of things.
I wish they had collected the metal railings earlier, it would have saved my younger brother being impaled on school railings after falling of the roof of the school bicycle shed.
He was in the local hospital in a prefrabricated ward with wounded soldiers from Dunkirk, daft bugger thought he was some sort of an hero because he was with wounded soldiers.

by oftenwrong Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:08 pm

Gracie Fields buggered off to the safety of the USA in 1940. Not really fit to be mentioned in the same context as Vera Lynne.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6711189.stm

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:11 pm

Gracie married Monte Banks
Unfortunately, Banks was still an Italian citizen and would have been interned when Italy entered the war. The couple went to Canada to raise funds for war charities and the press went wild. They accused Gracie of fleeing the country out of fear and taking her wealth with her. She denied this, though much of her family had moved to America "for health reasons".

Whatever her reasons for going, she was soon back; touring factories and army posts at home and abroad, and making innumerable radio broadcasts. The press were still against her, but her audience remained loyal.

Not all appears as it seems, Gracie had a villa on the Isle of Capri after the war, Monte Banks died in 1950.

by Shirina Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:17 pm

Can anyone explain why the Japanese High Command could have been so incredibly stupid as to attack the ONLY World Power capable of opposing their (already well advanced) plans to control the whole of South-East Asia?

Nations and terrorists continue making the same mistake over and over. They believe that, because Americans live comfortable lives, growing fat on our weath, that Americans have no stomach for war. Again and again, they commit foolish blunders like Pearl Harbor and 9/11 believing that a quick, sharp slap to the jowls will put America in her place. The Japanese believed that the war with America would only last 6 months, and without a navy, waging war in the Pacific would be impossible. By the time America rearmed, they believed, their Pacific bastion would be impregnable. Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto knew better, of course, but he did as he was told, faithfully planning the Pearl Harbor attack.

The Japanese were right about one thing though - the war DID last only 6 months. On June 7th, 1942, exactly 6 months after Pearl Harbor, outnumbered and outgunned American pilots flying obsolete aircraft soundly defeated the Imperial Japanese Navy at the Battle of Midway. After Midway, the Pacific campaign was just a series of large scale mopping-up exercises. The Japanese never had any hope of winning the war after Midway and never again went on the offensive.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:27 pm

It is to be observed that Gracie Fields is a British-born woman, that she was married to an alien who became an enemy national but is no longer

You would think she was married to a Martian, she married Monte before we was at war with Italy. We had a king who gave up a throne to marry the woman he loved, we wasn't at war with the USA, the lady was American, but he was a Nazi sympathiser. Our ex king never received the same kind of shit from our government that Gracie got.

by Shirina Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:37 pm

Can any one explain why Hitler attacked Russia, instead of Britain, we all know what happened to Napoleon when he attacked Russia.

Britain was the fly in Hitler's ointment. Hitler never had any intention of going to war against Britain and never believed Britain would go to war over Poland. To put it bluntly, Hitler's heart was never fully committed to fighting the United Kingdom. Even the Blitz was more Churchill's doing than Hitler's. Some stray Luftwaffe aircraft had gotten lost and accidentally dropped bombs on London; Hitler was so enraged that he had most of the pilots imprisoned and the leaders were executed. Churchill used this Nazi screw up as an excuse to bomb German cities indiscriminately, and that, in turn, goaded Hitler into focusing the Luftwaffe on bombing British cities. That's exactly what Churchill wanted; if the Luftwaffe was busy bombing cities, it wouldn't be bombing British airfields, and that brilliant bit of sacrificial maneuvering was instrumental in winning the Battle of Britain.

Hitler's main goal, as was always his main goal, was to defeat the Soviet Union. Hitler hated communism, and before the Nazis turned their wrath against the Jews, communists were Hitler's number one hated foes. Hitler's "brown shirts," the SA, fought all kinds of brawls with the communists during the 30's and Hermann Goering was even shot by a communist during one of these fights. He wanted to turn the Ukraine into a Nazi farming heaven filled with dutiful Aryans plying the land, and take control of the oil fields in the Caucasus region. In fact, the bulk of the Wehrmacht was heading to the Caucasus region when Hitler got distracted by a city called Stalingrad simply because he didn't like the name.

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:42 pm

Shirina wrote:
The Japanese believed that the war with America would only last 6 months…

The Japanese were right about one thing though - the war DID last only 6 months. On June 7th, 1942, exactly 6 months after Pearl Harbor, outnumbered and outgunned American pilots flying obsolete aircraft soundly defeated the Imperial Japanese Navy at the Battle of Midway.

“Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell”, Vice Admiral William Frederick Halsey, Jr., 8 December 1941, aboard United States Ship Enterprise, upon viewing the carnage at Pearl Harbor.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:55 pm

[quote="Shirina"]

Can any one explain why Hitler attacked Russia, instead of Britain, we all know what happened to Napoleon when he attacked Russia.

Britain was the fly in Hitler's ointment. Hitler never had any intention of going to war against Britain and never believed Britain would go to war over Poland. To put it bluntly, Hitler's heart was never fully committed to fighting the United Kingdom. Even the Blitz was more Churchill's doing than Hitler's. Some stray Luftwaffe aircraft had gotten lost and accidentally dropped bombs on London; Hitler was so enraged that he had most of the pilots imprisoned and the leaders were executed. Churchill used this Nazi screw up as an excuse to bomb German cities indiscriminately, and that, in turn, goaded Hitler into focusing the Luftwaffe on bombing British cities. That's exactly what Churchill wanted; if the Luftwaffe was busy bombing cities, it wouldn't be bombing British airfields, and that brilliant bit of sacrificial maneuvering was instrumental in winning the Battle of Britain.

Hitler's main goal, as was always his main goal, was to defeat the Soviet Union. Hitler hated communism, and before the Nazis turned their wrath against the Jews, communists were Hitler's number one hated foes. Hitler's "brown shirts," the SA, fought all kinds of brawls with the communists during the 30's and Hermann Goering was even shot by a communist during one of these fights. He wanted to turn the Ukraine into a Nazi farming heaven filled with dutiful Aryans plying the land, and take control of the oil fields in the Caucasus region. In fact, the bulk of the Wehrmacht was heading to the Caucasus region when Hitler got distracted by a city called Stalingrad simply because he didn't like the name. [/quote

I was taking you seriously, on these threads till i read all this bollocks, you either live in fairy land or cloud cockoo land. I lived through that war and knew exactly what Adolf wanted, that was to demoralise the British people. That was is biggest mistake, only made us more resolute to beat him, Hitler had a flaw, he would not take advise from his generals, a bit like the Japanese top man. I do really think you need to take a reality pill.

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:12 pm

Jack,

Please realize that you were there and we (speaking a bit “out of school”) were not. In fact, very few of us had the opportunity that presented itself to me, one summer decades after the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, and Pearl Harbor, of reading in chronological order each and every issue of Time, Newsweek, US News and World Report, Look, and Life magazines from 1937, when Japan invaded China, through 1945, when Germany and Japan surrendered unconditionally.

I was shocked, horrified, and scared, even though I knew the ending. I can only imagine the profound fear felt by those like you for whom the ending was not foreknown. My deepest respect and gratitude will follow you all the days of your life, sir, and I consider it an honor to have the opportunity to interact with you. Please have a little patience with those like me who cannot know what you know.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:27 pm

Rock say's
Please have a little patience with those like me who cannot know what you know.
.
Sorry Rock, don't mean to upset anyone, but it annoys me when someone tries to re-write history. Hitler changed his tacticts, from bombing factories, and marshalling yards, and airfields and started bombing city's and towns. also it was a lot easier to drop a load of bombs on a city, than look for a specific target. I don't think he attacked Stalingrad or Leningrad because he didn't like their names, it was because they were in the way for Moscow.

by Shirina Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:30 pm

I was taking you seriously, on these threads till i read all this bollocks, you either live in fairy land or cloud cockoo land.

I would then invite you to prove me wrong. Simply insulting me does not offer a refutation as ad hominem attacks are a well known logical fallacy. Of course Hitler wanted to demoralize the British people, but that came after the Blitz started. It was not part of Hitler's overall strategy. He had to do something about Britain, and that's what he did. Telling me to take a "reality pill" does not change the reality of what happened during the war, nor does getting all bent out of shape over a purely academic retelling of historical events that are WELL documented does not further this discussion one iota. A question was asked, I answered. If you don't like my answer, then you can offer up a rebuttal, not an attack.

To be blunt, I'm getting a bit fed up with people going ape over history that can be easily researched. I can't help what history is, and I can't fire up my flux capacitor to whisk back in time to change it to your liking. If you happen to have 1.21 gigawatts of electricity and a flux capacitor, perhaps you can do better. Until then, my facts remain unchallenged.

by Shirina Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:31 pm

Sorry Rock, don't mean to upset anyone, but it annoys me when someone tries to re-write history.

Oh for God's sake, I'm done. If you want to disbelieve historical facts, be my guest. I'm sick of this whiny crap. I'll just moderate and keep my mouth shut. If anyone wants to discuss things with me, I can be reached via PMs. Otherwise, sod off.

by Shirina Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:37 pm

I don't think he attacked Stalingrad or Leningrad because he didn't like their names, it was because they were in the way for Moscow.

It wasn't "in the way." In fact, he diverted all of his panzer divisions from the Caucasus region to take the city. Why? The Russians were far enough along to see the spires of the Kremlin, but instead they went after Stalingrad. The city was cultural and had no military or strategic significance.

There, that's it. Go look it up yourself ... perhaps fact checking before having a fit would better serve everyone on this forum. Not that it matters now. Talk history all you want. I'm done.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:46 pm

Rock say's
I was shocked, horrified, and scared, even though I knew the ending. I can only imagine the profound fear felt by those like you for whom the ending was not foreknown

I was not scared, none of us kids were or appeared to be, a lot of people had what they called Anderson Air Raid shelters to it was up the street, the whole street used it. Well them that went anyway, our parents thought we would be safer under the stairs. A lot of bombed buildings it was found the stairs were still standing, so people took cover there while waiting for the all clear.
Schools had air raid practice, we had air raid shelter along the side of the school playing field, we had to march in a double file wearing our gas masks (no riunning) to the shelters, sit inside for half hour, then go back to our class rooms. We kids thought it was great fun, but eight to eleven year olds would,
wouldn't they.

by bobby Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:00 pm

jackthelad wrote
"The metal wasn't collected to make Spitfires,"

"Money poured in and mountains of pots, pans and aluminium in various shapes and forms appeared all over the UK.
The plan was to turn the aluminium in everyday kitchen ware into the Duralumin used to build Spitfires. © WRVS."

The Spitfire is considered to be the machine that saved Britain during its darkest hour. © Science and Society Picture Library.

It’s been recently suggested that Beaverbrook’s campaign was really little more than a propaganda exercise offering otherwise helpless citizens a chance to feel they were contributing to the war effort. As Rob Skitmore put it, "in actual fact we had lots of aluminium, what we needed more of were pilots."

Sorry Jack, but pots and pans where specifically asked for, and the people where told it was to build spitfires, as the spitfire had such a strong image, nevertheless most of it ended up in stockpiles and was never used or needed. As for the railing I really dont know what became of them, but like the pots and pans, there was a campagn to collect them.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:02 pm

Shirina's
The city was cultural and had no military or strategic significance.

That city broke the back of the mighty German army's advance, Germany was attacking on more than one front, Stalin said there was to be no retreat in Stalingrad, or Leningrad. With the stubborness of the Russian people, and a Russian winter, and Alantic convoys supplying Russia with the war materials that they needed, that is what brought Hitlers downfall.

by bobby Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:10 pm

My personal belif is that Hitler attacked The USSR, for two reasons,
1/ He was an avid reader of Bonaparte, and wanted to take Moscow where Bonaparte failed. Ego is a whicked playmate.
2/ Russia had shed loads of oil, and Hitler desperately needed all he could get to keep the war going as by then he realised it wasn't going to be a quick victory. His Blitzkrieg tactics where the best tactics to get a battle over as quick as poss, but when the war became protracted he needed more fuel than their stockpiles had, Fuel was the main reason he lost both the war in North Africa, and the Battle of the bulge, Germany's last attempt to win the war.

by jackthelad Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:35 pm

Fuel was the main reason he lost both the war in North Africa, and the Battle of the bulge, Germany's last attempt to win the war.

You are not wrong there Bobby, his tanks run out of fuel in the Ardenne, and his fuel dumps got destroyed in North Africa, plus the fact he let down Field Marshal Rommel down with supplies.

by Charlatan Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:04 pm

I think the dawn of the atom bomb was more significant. It has made wars tepid ever since. What about the day that a new ruler was appointed for germany? You could probably be in deep thought the whole year!

by ROB Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:07 pm

The Spit was magnificent, the Mustang was the Spit with the wrinkles ironed out.

by oftenwrong Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:40 am

The North American Mustang was built to British specification, perfected by the eventual incorporation of the Rolls Royce Merlin engine.

http://acepilots.com/planes/p51_mustang.html

by bobby Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:22 am

Absolutely correct OW.

by witchfinder Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:12 pm

My favorite story of World War Two

the morning of 3rd september 1939 - British Embassy, Berlin.

[British Ambassoder] "tea general" !
[German General] "thankyou, yes"
[German General] "you do realise that at 11 O Clock we could be at war"
[British Ambassoder] "one lump or two"

by ROB Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:15 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
The North American Mustang was built to British specification, perfected by the eventual incorporation of the Rolls Royce Merlin engine.

Not entirely correct.

The RAF was desperately in need of aircraft; on 15 September 1940, 630 Hurricanes and Spitfires of Fighter Commands were aloft or transiting between sorties. Churchill, at Fighter Command Headquarters, asked, “Where are the reserves?” Guess what the answer was?

The RAF contracted with North American Aviation, Inglewood, California, to build a number of P-39s. North American brass, aware of the limitations of the P-39, countered with an offer to build an entirely new aircraft, superior to the P-39 in every way. The RAF agreed, stipulating that the new aircraft had to be ready for delivery in a specified time. The P-51 was a day or two late, but its superiority to the P-39 was so evident that the RAF didn’t too much mind the delay.

The original P-51 was powered by an Allison engine, which performed well down low but as a dog at altitude. Someone in the RAF, I believe an aviator, suggested that the Allison be swapped out for the Rolls Royce Merlin, the Spit’s powerplant; North American did just that, making some other improvements as well, and eventually the P-51D, complete with Merlin, eight (I believe) Browning .50 caliber “Ma deuces”, and a bubble canopy, was shooting down German fighters over Berlin.

The P-51D Mustang was truly an Anglo-American aircraft.

by oftenwrong Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:22 pm

Never expected you to agree with anything anyone else says.
Have a nice day.

by ROB Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:34 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Never expected you to agree with anything anyone else says.

When “anyone else says” truth, I try my best to agree.

oftenwrong wrote:
Have a nice day.

You too.

by Sponsored content