Can the war on terror be won?

by Charlatan Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

If we look at the war on terror, which has spread between afghanistan, iraq, libya and pakistan, we will find many renewable sources of conflict. If the west was to leave the areas, and the state was to leave them alone, there would be peace. The whole fact that they are there is the cause of the war, and the involvement of the countries in these fights would see them fight because they are being sought.

So what would happen if the near east was to leave the militants alone? I think pakistan already has sharia law, so they could just leave them alone and watch the peace flow. The exceptions are areas where they have christians and muslims living close together.

If we were to give them sharia law in africa, the christians wouldn;t mind that much. It is just stricter morality, with laws keeping the stricter morality in place.

What should be done to end the war on terror?

by ROB Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:41 pm

astra wrote:
Stern Gang

Red Brigade

IRA

All beasts masquerading as human beings that perpetrate evil bestiality on decent folks throughout the world.

by ROB Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:18 pm

Eyewitness accounts of Western allied troops discovering execution camps will be aired tomorrow on this program:

World War: Final Days – “Part 2” Saturday, 18 February 2012, 8:00 AM GMT, The Smithsonian Channel.

Nazi terrorism should never be forgotten.

by bobby Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:40 pm

Rockonbrother wrote.

There is one solution: Dead terrorists.

And.

At what point in your life have terrorists not terrorized, tortured, raped, and murdered innocent humans? It hasn't happened in my life.

And

All beasts masquerading as human beings that perpetrate evil bestiality on decent folks throughout the world.

Allow me to post a couple of pics for your perousal Roc.

A few seconds after this photo was taken, these people where shot dead.

Dead man and child. Photo by Ronald L. Haeberle

You know the rest of the photo's I could post.

This Major atrocity was perpetrated by Company C,1^st Battalion, 20^th Infantry Regiment, 11^th Brigade, 23^rd Infantry Division. United States Army whilst in Vietnam.

C Company Led By Second Lieutenant William Calley was made up of all types in Society, Sons of Lawyers, Preachers, Mechanics and absolute cross section of people, Yet at the behest of their superior officers carried out some of the worst atrocities possible, mainly to elderly women and children, not happy with murdering them, some even mutilated and raped them, young girls where raped in front of their parents and grand parents before being murdered.

So as you yourself say, There is one solution, Dead Terrorists, only who killed these dirty filthy sons of bitches, I’ll tell you no one. Second Lieutenant Calley was the only one (scapegoat) to be charged, and was given a life at hard labour. Guess what, the lump of shit only did two years then released. American Justice at its best.

The US Claimed 347 dead, but the Vietnamese claim 504 and didnt know how many where wounded.

Roc said finally

Nazi terrorism should never be forgotten.

And neither should US terrorism ever be forgotton.

by ROB Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:59 am

Bobby,

No sir, I don't know “the rest of [your] story” insofar as terrorism is concerned.

Please identify the order (when, where, which Commander in Chief, substantive summary of order) issued by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America directing the actions you've chosen to depict.

by ROB Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:03 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Nazi terrorism should never be forgotten.

bobby wrote:
And neither should US terrorism ever be forgotton.

Nazi terrorist beasts exterminated six million (6,000,000) Jews and five million (5,000,000) other inferior life forms, eleven million (11,000,000) in all, in extermination camps designed by Nazi terrorist beasts for the sole purpose of exterminating innocent civilians that were (1) rounded up by Nazi terrorist beasts from throughout Germany and the nations conquered by Germany, (2) herded unto cattle cars, squeezed together in many cases as tight as sardines, (3) transported, sometimes hundreds of miles, in these conditions to extermination camps, (4) herded out of cattle cars upon reaching their destinations, (5) sorted out into groups by Nazi terrorist beasts into those to be immediately exterminated and those who were deemed “fit enough” to be slaves (see video of poem by Oscar Brown Jr., below), and (6) either exterminated at that time or soon thereafter by Nazi terrorist beasts, or (7) worked unmercifully as slaves by Nazi beasts until they were no longer of use and then exterminated, all at the command of Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, and other high-ranking Nazi terrorist beasts.

Please provide factual accounts of Americans (USV):

Exterminating six million (6,000,000) Jews;
Exterminating five million (5,000,000) other inferior life forms;
Exterminating eleven million (11,000,000) inferior life forms in all;
Exterminating eleven million inferior life forms in extermination camps designed by Americans USV for the sole purpose of exterminating innocent civilians;
Rounding up eleven million inferior life forms from throughout the United States of America and the nations conquered by the United States of America;
Herding eleven million inferior life forms unto cattle cars, squeezed together in many cases as tight as sardines;
Transporting eleven million inferior life forms, sometimes hundreds of miles, in these conditions to extermination camps;
Herding eleven million inferior life forms out of cattle cars upon reaching their destinations;
Sorting out eleven million inferior life forms into groups into those to be immediately exterminated and those deemed “fit enough” to be slaves;
Exterminating millions of inferior life forms at that time or soon thereafter;
Working millions of inferior life forms unmercifully as slaves until they are no longer of use and then exterminating them;
Doing all this at the commands of Barack Hussein Obama, Jr., George Walker Bush, William Jefferson Clinton, George Herbert Walker Bush, Ronald Wilson Reagan, James Earl Carter, Gerald Rudolph Ford, Richard Milhous Nixon, Lyndon Baines Johnson, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Dwight David Eisenhower, Harry S Truman, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and/or their Secretaries of the Navy (Roosevelt and Truman), Secretaries of War (Roosevelt and Truman), Secretaries of Defense, Secretaries of State, National Security Advisors, and other top aides.

Please provide documentation of your accounts.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Bid ‘em In, Oscar Brown, Jr.

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by oftenwrong Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:00 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
astra wrote:
Stern Gang

Red Brigade

IRA

All beasts masquerading as human beings that perpetrate evil bestiality on decent folks throughout the world.

Extreme views generate extreme action, but it is notable that two of the above examples, The Stern Gang and the IRA subsequently produced leaders in their Country's elected Government.

by bobby Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:26 am

Roc, More for your perusal.

When the troops from 1 Platoon moved through the village they started to fire at the villagers. These were women, children and the elderly as the young men had gone to the paddy fields to work. Sergeant Michael Bernhardt, who was at My Lai, was quoted in 1973 as stating that he saw no one who could have been considered to be of military age. He also stated that the US troops in My Lai met no resistance. An army photographer, Ronald Haeberie, witnessed a US soldier shoot two young boys who he believed were no more than five years of age. Other photos taken at the scene of the massacre show bodies of what can only be very young children.

When the incident became public knowledge in 1969, it prompted widespread outrage around the world. The massacre also increased domestic opposition to the US involvement in the Vietnam War. Three US servicemen who had tried to halt the massacre and protect the wounded were later denounced by several US Congressmen. They received hate mail and death threats and found mutilated animals on their doorsteps.^[7] It was 30 years before they were honored for their efforts.^[8]
^{I really can not believe you Roc. You deplore terrorism and genocide, when perpetrated by Japs and Germans, yet seem to think that when your very own American USV’s (whatever they are) are up to their filthy necks in it, its OK, and all you have to say is where’s the proof, or show a load of horrific photo’s of the Holocaust, why have you done that Roc, I am aware of the Holocaust, My Dads best friend married a survivor of Belsen, she was Russian and was used for experiments on the mechanics of muscles, all without anaesthetic, also being Half Italian, have seen the devastation of my own Country by both German and American Terrorists, The Germans on the ground and the Americans from the air.

What point are you trying to make with your pitiful answers, is it that if you only kill a few hundred elderly, women and children its not an act of terrorism, but to kill millions is. I never realised it was about numbers, I always considered it to be about the deed.

As far as who gave the orders, it only need to be one superior officer, and we have that in Lieutenant William Calley, as all of the others where subordinate to him. Anyway that doesn’t matter a jot, because no soldier is expected to follow an order that will make him commit an illegal act.

And what is it you are trying to tell me with the photo of a Hanging Black woman who was murdered by yet more American USV’s.

You are a part of a Nation that is steeped in attrocities, yet will not own up to them, you have a very short history, yet can match the history’s of many much older Countries when it comes to barbarity, and you don’t have to look far, just think of the native Americans and what you American USV’s did to them, and then called the genocide committed BATTLES. Get Real Roc}

by ROB Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:48 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
… it is notable that two of the above examples, The Stern Gang and the IRA subsequently produced leaders in their Country's elected Government.

I would trust neither of these elected officials.

by ROB Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:55 pm

bobby wrote:
And what is it you are trying to tell me with the photo of a Hanging Black woman who was murdered by yet more American USV’s

Friday, 17 February 2012, at 23:18 RockOnBrother wrote:
Nazi terrorism should never be forgotten.

You’ve not addressed this request: “Please identify the order (when, where, which Commander in Chief, substantive summary of order) issued by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America directing the actions you've chosen to depict.” This request was made today, Saturday, 18 February 2012, at 0:59.

Additionally, you’ve not addressed these two request: (1) “Please provide factual accounts of Americans (USV) [performing, at the commands of Presidents of the United States and/or their Secretaries of the Navy, Secretaries of War, Secretaries of Defense, Secretaries of State, and other top aides, eleven acts I’ve identified that were performed by Nazi terrorist beasts].” (2) “Please provide documentation of your accounts.” These requests were made today, Saturday, 18 February 2012, at 2:03.

“More for your perusal.”
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by oftenwrong Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:16 pm

Have you ever heard of "Compassion Fatigue", RoB?

by bobby Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:42 pm

Roc, for a man who professes to be of superior intelligence ( an assumption made by the way you speak), you really don’t get it do you. I have kept the photo’s I posted to a minimum and have chosen perhaps some of the least horrific of those readily available. I don’t need to see photo’s of the Holocaust to know and believe it happened, as I told you of my Dads good friend who married a survivor. I don’t know why you want me to give the names of the Generals, the President and uncle Tom Cobley and all, it as well you know is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is that all the troops that took part in the terrorist atrocity I speak of didn’t have to follow the orders given by Lieutenant William Calley, as those orders where illegal, yet still when the animals had old women and children in their sights and no sign of any weapons, they still pulled the triggers, and to make matters a hell of a lot worse, some of the females where raped and tortured prior to being shot.

I was in the army, and took my orders from the next up the line, I was never given a direct order from anyone higher than a Captain (if my memory serves), so why do you expect some General, President or whoever to give orders to a bunch of crazed animals, the poor sod would have to have got his hands dirty.

I remember reading that a Sergeant that landed in a helicopter was even threatened by Calleys Hero’s, and this Sergeant subsequently took some of the civilian survivors to safety, and was summarily castigated by some of his fellow soldiers for doing so. It took many years for his merciful deed to be recognised.

Roc, They did it, and as the acts where illegal each individual that took part has his own share of the guilt on his hands. It doesn’t matter if orders came from a lowly Second lieutenant of a piggin General as the order was illegal.

Why cant you show yourself to be Man enough and Admit Americans have phucked up, instead you try to tell us that numbers matter not deeds. What the Nazis or the Japs did was no worse that what this platoon of US Soldiers did, So accept it as it’s the truth.

I still don’t know what the picture of the hanging Black woman is all about.

by astra Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:05 pm

Hello Bobby, I know that the British Military did some questionable things - every army has. When the adrenallin gets going and blood lust rises depending on the individual and the surroundings things may/could get out of hand, but this depends on the calibre of the Officers in charge.

The present suing of Britain by members of the Mau Mau (a nice group of gentlemen if ever there was) is an outright travesty and goes nowhwere near what happened at Mai Lai. It is to be seen that NO ONE is taking the United States apart for this!

by trevorw2539 Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:07 pm

Why are you arguing over this. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao, Cortez in South America, Ghengis Khan, to name a few, have all been guilty of Barbarism. The British Empire, the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, the Roman Empire and almost any Empire you can think of has been built and maintained in 'unsavoury' ways. And it wasn't the leaders who committed the atrocities, although they gave the orders.
We all need to admit that man is not the 'nicest' being in creation.

And if you don't agree with me, I'll send the heavy mob round :affraid:

by bobby Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:16 pm

Hello V. Yes Britain has blood on its hands. My own Father would have been shot by the Germans had they captured him He most certainly would have been tried as a war criminal had the Germans won the war. The difference is V, that we will put our hands up and admit that our Countries have to carry the responsibility, but Roc seems to think that every one else who commits terrorist atrocities should Die, but those dirty murdering pieces of shit at My Lai did sweet phuck all wrong. My only guess is that had he of been there, he would have done his share, thinking it to be allright.

by bobby Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:18 pm

Hi Trev, how big are the heavy mob, as I'm quite a big geezer. Or should I head for Them Thar Hills
Why I am having this war of words with Rockonbrother, is that he made a post showing graphically the massacre at Nan King, and quite rightly denounced it as an act of Barbarity, etc.

I responded asking him, that if he felt the massacre of Nang King was a barbaric terrorist atrocity, What about My Lai. Unlike the rest of us who will put our hands up and admit that at some time in our country’s history, we also must carry the guilt of barbaric acts. Yet all I get from this American, are photo’s of the holocaust and requests for the names of the Top Brass that gave the order for said atrocity. It doesn’t seem to matter to him that innocent women and children where Raped and Tortured prior to being shot, whereas to me it does matter.
.

by ROB Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:23 pm

bobby wrote:
Roc, for a man who professes to be of superior intelligence ( an assumption made by the way you speak), you really don’t get it do you. I have kept the photo’s I posted to a minimum and have chosen perhaps some of the least horrific of those readily available. I don’t need to see photo’s of the Holocaust to know and believe it happened, as I told you of my Dads good friend who married a survivor. I don’t know why you want me to give the names of the Generals, the President and uncle Tom Cobley and all, it as well you know is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is that all the troops that took part in the terrorist atrocity I speak of didn’t have to follow the orders given by Lieutenant William Calley, as those orders where illegal, yet still when the animals had old women and children in their sights and no sign of any weapons, they still pulled the triggers, and to make matters a hell of a lot worse, some of the females where raped and tortured prior to being shot.

I was in the army, and took my orders from the next up the line, I was never given a direct order from anyone higher than a Captain (if my memory serves), so why do you expect some General, President or whoever to give orders to a bunch of crazed animals, the poor sod would have to have got his hands dirty.

I remember reading that a Sergeant that landed in a helicopter was even threatened by Calleys Hero’s, and this Sergeant subsequently took some of the civilian survivors to safety, and was summarily castigated by some of his fellow soldiers for doing so. It took many years for his merciful deed to be recognised.

Roc, They did it, and as the acts where illegal each individual that took part has his own share of the guilt on his hands. It doesn’t matter if orders came from a lowly Second lieutenant of a piggin General as the order was illegal.

Why cant you show yourself to be Man enough and Admit Americans have phucked up, instead you try to tell us that numbers matter not deeds. What the Nazis or the Japs did was no worse that what this platoon of US Soldiers did, So accept it as it’s the truth.

I still don’t know what the picture of the hanging Black woman is all about.

You’ve not addressed either of three requests, posted today, Saturday, 18 February 2012, at 0:59 and at 2:03; therefore, I am compelled to assume that you do not intend to do so.

Good day to you, sir.

by trevorw2539 Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:34 pm

The only way to stop terrorism is to persuade the terrorist that he cannot win. In 'religious' terrorism this is often impossible. Death to this type of terrorist is to win 'divine' approval and a good afterlife.

A rather austere abbot of a monastery spent his life in celibacy. He was not remakable for what he had done, but for what he had not done, and his extreme self-discipline.
The other monks and novices looked up to him, despite his rather cold manner, and were inspired by his leadership.
When he died he was spoken of in great reverence by the monks.

Some years later one of the other monks, an admirer of the old Abbot, died.
When he arrived in the next world he saw the old Abbot with a beautiful blonde on his lap.

'Wow, so this is Heaven' said the monk enviously. 'I see you have your reward'.

'Actually, this isn't heaven', said the abbot 'and I'm her punishment'.

by bobby Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:37 pm

Roc, its yourself who is failing when it comes to answering a direct question. I Said.

I don’t know why you want me to give the names of the Generals, the President and uncle Tom Cobley and all, it as well you know is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is that all the troops that took part in the terrorist atrocity I speak of didn’t have to follow the orders given by Lieutenant William Calley, as those orders where illegal, yet still when the animals had old women and children in their sights and no sign of any weapons, they still pulled the triggers, and to make matters a hell of a lot worse, some of the females where raped and tortured prior to being shot.

AS THE ORDER GIVEN BY CALLEY WHERE ILLEGAL, THE TROOPS DIDN'T HAVE TO RAPE, TORTURE AND KILL THEIR VICTIMS.

Tell me Roc, do you agree with what happened at My Lai, irrespective of who did or didn't give the order, or do you simply believe it didn't happen, as we have heard so many times from Germans who deny the Holocaust.

And what about the hung Black woman, whats that about.

by astra Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:44 pm

RoC

"On the eve of the massacre, another comrade had been blown up by a VC booby-trap, and so it was amid a mood of pent-up frustration and vengeance that Charlie Company was briefed by Captain Ernest Medina about the following morning's planned sweep through 'Pinkville'.
Medina's orders are heatedly disputed to this day. A highly respected commander, he has always denied telling the men to kill indiscriminately, advising them that they should use discretion and only fire at anyone who threatened their safety - but Calley insists otherwise."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-485983/Found-The-monster-My-Lai-massacre.html#ixzz1ml9uLaRp

Hence my reference to "Blood Lust"

The details are out there, but it is like the US is still in denial.

The US government seem to be akin to the management of the company I retired from - ie Avoid, Detract and foil off all and any bad publicity at ALL costs!

Hell, that is exactly the raison d'être of the present British Government!

They ALSO are getting nowhere fast!

by trevorw2539 Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:44 pm

bobby wrote:Hi Trev, how big are the heavy mob, as I'm quite a big geezer. Or should I head for Them Thar Hills
Why I am having this war of words with Rockonbrother, is that he made a post showing graphically the massacre at Nan King, and quite rightly denounced it as an act of Barbarity, etc.

I responded asking him, that if he felt the massacre of Nang King was a barbaric terrorist atrocity, What about My Lai. Unlike the rest of us who will put our hands up and admit that at some time in our country’s history, we also must carry the guilt of barbaric acts. Yet all I get from this American, are photo’s of the holocaust and requests for the names of the Top Brass that gave the order for said atrocity. It doesn’t seem to matter to him that innocent women and children where Raped and Tortured prior to being shot, whereas to me it does matter.
.

Er. The heavy mob. Actually it consists of 4 beautiful young ladies. I find they have even more persuasive powers than large men, particularly when dealing with men Very Happy

When dealing with women, I just use my natural charm. Perhaps that's why I always fail with women Sad

by Shirina Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:45 pm

Why cant you show yourself to be Man enough and Admit Americans have phucked up, instead you try to tell us that numbers matter not deeds. What the Nazis or the Japs did was no worse that what this platoon of US Soldiers did, So accept it as it’s the truth.

Well, I'm not sure I can agree with this. What Calley and his men did was a crime ... but it wasn't genocide. I don't think one can make a direct comparison and honestly proclaim that one is just as bad as the other. It is extremely difficult to "rank" atrocities without sounding as though we approve or accept one atrocity more than the other. Yet there are factors that can be analyzed to make one worse than the other. The scale is an obvious one, as well as premeditation, brutality (Calley didn't enslave and starve the villagers for years before killing them, for instance), and whether the action goes against the laws of the land (which killing Jews in Nazi Germany definitely did not).

by astra Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:52 pm

Shirina, I know not how the U.S. military operates, but the British forces always have to operate by the Haig Charter, laws of the land, if the land has any, are going to go by the by in battle scenearios. Germany (and Italy for a time) ignored this and Japan did not sign up to it
You know as well as any that there is always a near traitorious lawyer in both US AND UK looking for a foil to fame I am somewhat dismayed no legal beagal in US has picked up on this one. Situation too hot?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14232049

by oftenwrong Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:00 pm

In War, the first victim is always The Truth. None of the armchair Judges were personally involved in the My Lai occurrence, so what our views are based upon can only be reported information, often from people who weren't there either.

Perhaps it would be helpful to stand back completely, and take a dispassionate view of the entire unsatisfactory business of warfare.
Soldiers don't always choose that occupation, they are often drafted by a Government, taking them away from their hometown and friends and training shoe-clerks, supermarket shelf-stackers and all-round good guys TO KILL.

Soldiers should only ever be employed TO KILL, their training doesn't provide for value judgments. Why then is anybody surprised when soldiers follow the instructions of those who trained them?

by bobby Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:39 pm

Sharina on the whole you are of course quite right, perhaps my use of language was missplaced, but other than that, I stand by all I have said..

: Each individual soldier that took part in the atrocity, has to shoulder his share of the blame. I am not and have not said this from a position of the UK being blame free of atrocities as I will be the first to admit to them. But Roc posted a graphic picture of the Nan King massacre, and totally damned those that took part in it. Why then are they any worse than Calleys Hero’s, who came across an undefended village, and systematically Tortured, Raped and killed the elderly, women and Children. There can be no excuse, and had they been British troops I would expect the full fury of the law to deal with each and every one of them. Yet People like Roc seem to think that as there where fewer killed at My Lai than there was at the German Concentration camps. Everything is OK. Well Sorry Sharina I don’t think everything is fine, Calley got life with hard labour, but served 2 or 3 years only, then was part of a cover up. I can not find the exact article, and I have looked for it, But Colin Powell was allegedly a part of the cover up. As for the rest of them, by the time the case was fully examined, each and every one of them where no longer in the army, therefore immune from prosecution.

Had rock not have been so damning of others atrocities, this conversation would not have started. I just find people like him totally incredulous. He even posted a picture of a black woman that had been hung. What was that about, but now he wont answer.

Sorry Sharina. I have nothing but respect for you and your military knowledge and the angle you attack politics from, but right is right. It cant be wrong for one man to Rape torture then Kill, and not for another irrespective of the circumstances. My Grandson has completed two tours of Helmund province, and hasn’t discussed what he has or hasn’t seen. He never turned the gun of his tank on the civilians despite the fact some of them may know where the bombs are that are killing UK and US troops, or may have actually placed said bombs. Some things are totally unacceptable and what happened on the 16^th March 1968 at My Lai is one of them.

by astra Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:18 pm

For our American friends, think of the furore over the Bloody Sunday shootings - 30 January 1972

Troops taking fire - Mac guiness was alleged to have fired the first round!

Did that deter the Americans from getting on their high and mighty platform about "British Cruelty" "Imperialists" were your headlines about us!

by ROB Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:45 pm

Astra,

Many soldiers returned from Vietnam and never regained sanity, their full humanity taken from them by the Viet Cong, the NVA, the ARVN upon which they could never depend, the corrupt and racist government officials of the Republic of Vietnam, the indecision of the United States government and its reluctance to support the conscript troops that had been drafted involuntarily and taken from gainful pursuits, and the sheer insanity of the hell for which they were ill-prepared.

Please watch the videos.

There was and is no excuse for atrocities like My Lai; however, the blame cannot be placed solely upon the soldiers whose battle fatigue and stress were unimaginable. It must be shared by all who contributed to the hell into which these troops, average age nineteen, were placed without asking them if they wanted to be there, including the Vietnamese “civilians” who hung around U.S. soldiers, marines, airmen, and sailors during the day and fragged the sleeping quarters of these same conscripts during the night.

Peace unto you, my brother.

by ROB Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:50 pm

Astra,

You’ll notice a piece by Redgum. Too many have forgotten, or have never known of, the suffering of Aussie soldiers in Vietnam.

Peace unto you, my brother.

by astra Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:37 pm

I am aware of this RoB

Many soldiers returned from Vietnam and never regained sanity

The same happened to our squaddies who served in Ulster, and men returning from Oman now can be affected! This is common in ALL conflicts. A neighbour, now 70 who was captured by the Mau Mau as a young man and my relative who returned from the Battle of the Bulge included.

Indeed, I am also aware that some of British Forces are in Cambodia as I write are looking for - and finding MIA

They are ALWAYS accompanied by a US military Officer and a US Army Doctor.

All they can take out of those damned jungles is dogtags and any belongings in, on near the body or parts of!

They are told where the Vietnam Border is, and are regularly "informed" by that country, that ANY tresspass will result in a major incident. So what they tryin to hide???

Adjascent to some now abandoned villages have been found pits where the US soldiers were thrown in, and treat as the villagers deemed (un)fit!

We in the UK are aware of these facts, to throw up women hanging is to throw in a decoy.

Mai lai was wrong - there is no justifying of it. The Officers, in particular, Capt. Medina got it wrong!

by bobby Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:52 pm

Roc said or have never known of, the suffering of Aussie soldiers in Vietnam.

A very good point Roc, and we dont hear of any Australian atrocities do we. or atrocities by other American soldiers suffering from the same strains as Callys Hero's, within the same arena of war

Roc then said

the blame cannot be placed solely upon the soldiers whose battle fatigue and stress were unimaginable.

Again Roc you still dont get it. Had those excuse for soldiers rushed out of the forest shooting, in the belief there where VC in the Village, I could understand it and I wouldn't now hold so much contempt for them, but they didn’t they entered the peaceful village, rounded up the locals then did what they did. Even then I can to a degree understand the stresses they may have been under, but they didn’t just shoot them with their guns did they Roc, they also got their dicks out. That was not war, that was cold blooded evil murder, the torturing and the raping then took it to a whole new level.

My Father was a soldier during the 2^nd world war,and was away from home for six and a half years and after getting himself into some trouble in North Africa, ended up in the PPA (No 1 Demolition Squadron). They spent most of the war Two men to a willys jeep, creating mayhem or reporting on enemy troop movements, They where in no position to take prisoners, yet couldn’t release them to go back and report where the PPA operatives where, we must draw our own conclusions as to what happened to any Germans who where unlucky enough to end up in their hands. I don’t know for sure as my Dad would never talk about the war, but its as obvious as the nose (Roman) on my face what happened. I do know that at the latter part of the war, two German soldiers actually joined them. I cant see of any situation that could be as tense as he and his mates where suffering, yet he didn’t go round Torturing, Raping and killing innocent civilians, so no excuse can be made for the beasts who entered My Lai on March 16 1968. So I stand by what I said. Each Soldier should shoulder the blame for what he did personally. As I said Orders don’t come into it, as even if the Order came from the President himself, the order would have been illegal.

And I still don’t know what the hanging Black woman has to do with anything we have been discussing.

You are and allways have been critical of people who dont respond to your questions, but now Roc, you could give the rest of us lessons.

by ROB Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:43 pm

Astra,

I’ve been remiss in not telling you how you’ve opened my eyes to some things about which I was either unaware or barely aware.

Reading over your account of British soldiers in Northern Ireland, I realized for the first time that they were subjected to the same uncertainty and consequent stress as were American (and Australian) soldiers and marines in Vietnam.

Thank you, my brother. Just to let you know how valuable your lessons have been to me, I now always point out the devastation and death caused to Scotland and Scots by the beast that chose to blow up an airplane in the sky over Scotland whenever I can. As a matter of fact, and I just thought of this, would you repost those photos you once posted on the old Cutting Edge so that, this time, I might copy the links to a word document?

Rock

by astra Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:50 pm

I would think Bobby would be far more accurate having been there, but many - most who served prefer just to "harbour their own thoughts" on the subject.

Try to find the Lockerbie details.
D.

by trevorw2539 Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:35 pm

Quote from Bobby post Sat

I don’t know for sure as my Dad would never talk about the war, but its as obvious as the nose (Roman) on my face what happened.

My father was the same. He fought through into Germany and helped relieve one of the concentration camps. I know which but that is all. We learned never to ask questions as it was obviously painful.

We are just learning about Post traumatic stress disorder. Something not recognised in the 1st and 2nd world wars. Servicemen just 'got on with it'.
Some were shot in ignorance of the disorder.
Some of you have been through it. Thankfully I haven't, which sometimes makes it difficult to understand. All I had to cope with in 5 years as an erk in the RAF were monsoons and mosquitos in Ceylon, and 'terrible' conditions sunbathing in the Indian Ocean.
We ask a lot of our servicemen, particularly when they are sent abroad to lands they really should not be in. Risking, and losing their lives in alien lands. Often unappreciated by those they are helping. They deserve better treatment than they often receive from their country.

by astra Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:50 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/21/newsid_2539000/2539447.stm
"In total 259 people aboard the flight and 11 on the ground died in the crash which took place 38 minutes after take-off.
The debris from the aircraft was scattered across 845 square miles and the impact reached 1.6 on the Richter scale."

http://www.lockerbie-remembered.moonfruit.com/

http://natgeotv.com/uk/air-crash-investigation/lockerbie

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/real-life/2011/07/07/lockerbie-was-hell-on-earth-it-s-crazy-all-that-death-and-i-am-lying-awake-wondering-how-the-wind-can-remove-a-man-s-belt-86908-23253642/ This one has the nearest to a picture of the crash site

by astra Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:05 pm

This shows the damage in a small film - only 3 minutes long, starts with a trailer as usual. 2 of the engines broke off and hit separate parts of the village. The main damage was done by the "wing section" - middle fuselage, both inner wings inner engines and fuel tanks, which hit the row of houses.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/real-life/2011/07/07/lockerbie-was-hell-on-earth-it-s-crazy-all-that-death-and-i-am-lying-awake-wondering-how-the-wind-can-remove-a-man-s-belt-86908-23253642/

by ROB Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:44 pm

Thank you, Astra.

Trevor, you’ve described troops returning from Vietnam to a “tee.” What most people alive and cognizant to day don’t know is the disdain and hatred which these men and women faced upon returning to America USV. As the piece says, “they did not receive a hero’s welcome.”

Certain tales I cannot tell without tears. This is one of them. I knew a couple of hippie girls who baked cookies for soldiers returning from ‘nam. They went out to one of the international airport through which the soldiers transited and gave them hugs, kisses, and cookies. They did this as often as they could. Mind you, they protested the war, but they loved the men who survived hell.

Note: “USV” = “United States Variety” to differentiate “citizens of the United States of America” (seven words) from “citizens of Canada” (three words), the latter which can be precisely distilled down to “Canadians” (one word), while the former cannot be distilled down to anything, certainly not “Americans”, as Canadians are also Americans. I came up with “USV” as a way of being specific, as in “Americans USV” rather than just “Americans.”

by bobby Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:24 pm

Roc. I'm still waiting for answer to my questions, what I dont need is to be told that "citizens of Canada" consists of three words or Canadians is only one word.
What has the hanging Black woman got to do with anything we have been discussing on this forum. And what about those American USV's (now they really where a variety weren't they), who after getting their guns out, then got their dicks out. Now please be a good chap and answer.

Edited following a breach of Posting Rule 2 (see first board on forum for details). Ivan

by Stox 16 Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:00 am

As an Ex Lt in French Foreign Legion in my youth.. their is NO reason on this earth why any Soldier from a Western Army should carry out any acts of atrocity within a war Zone or out of a war zone. its the duty of every Western Army to fight to save the country you serve and after to helped relieve suffering of the people. 99% of Western Armies follow the same code. any Soldier who sees an act of any atrocity against civilians is duty bound to report this act. [i]

by Shirina Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:25 am

Hello, Stox:

Most of the soldiers who fought in Vietnam were conscripts - just average kids yanked right out of their sneakers and put into combat boots. They were not particularly well-trained nor were they particularly well-screened. America had as many as 550,000 soldiers in Vietnam in 1968 alone. In any city with a population of 550,000, you're going to see murder - and that's just a standard city. Add to that military-grade weaponry, enemies trying to kill you, and the horrors of warfare, it's a small wonder that there weren't hundreds, perhaps thousands of Lt. Calleys.

Now, I'm not trying to justify what Calley did, but I often hear non-Americans bringing up the Mai Lai incident as somehow being the quintessential representation of how the US Military conducts its wars. But I have to ask - when was the last time Britain fielded an army of 550,000 in one single theater of operations? Even in WWII, the UK and all of its colonies never mustered an army of that size and put them all in one place. Nor has any other European nation with the exception of Nazi Germany during Operation Barbarossa. With half a million soldiers running around in asymmetrical combat for nearly a decade, a Mai Lai type incident was inevitable. In fact, I'm surprised there wasn't more.

The US military learned numerous valuable lessons from the Vietnam War; it was practically redesigned from the ground up. But the most important lesson learned was that the most effective army is a volunteer army which spends a year or more in training before being sent into combat. This helps minimize incidents like Mai Lai.

Again, I'm not excusing Lt. Calley, but rather I'm merely offering up a different perspective on how Mai Lai is viewed in relation to America and its military.

by **astradt1** Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:09 am

What about the group of guards who photographed themselves abusing prisoners in Iraq after the fighting had finished?

What about the reports of US service men collecting the fingers of Afghans?

Britain is not innocent of committing abuse, of locals, but once it's out legal action is taken to punish those who have committed it........

by bobby Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:49 pm

Sharina wrote.

Again, I'm not excusing Lt. Calley, but rather I'm merely offering up a different perspective on how Mai Lai is viewed in relation to America and its military.

Sharina in my post I did in fact mention the helicopter pilot, I think his name may be Johnson? Who was threatened at gun point by the My Lai Criminals, whilst trying to get them to stop, he took some villagers to safety, and was castigated by his fellow soldiers, I also mentioned how the many troops in similar areas, and under similar conditions, didn’t perpetrate the atrocities that Calleys Hero’s did. My main gripe is of the cover up which allegedly involve Colin Powell and Americans to accept it was an atrocity and agree that the animals that did what they did should be taken to task.

What started this was Rockonbrothers Graphic illustration if the Nan King Massacre, You Americans, we British and the rest of the world know it as a Massacre. I personally don’t see any difference between what the Japs did at Nan King to What those US GI’s did at My Lai. I have at no time blamed America in its entirety. But I feel there must be something wrong, when people not only try to excuse the deed, But the Government actually tried to cover it up.

Be Honest, as I’m sure you will. What would America be saying if it was a company of British troops in Malaya, that did something like The My Lai Massacre.

Even you in your posting referred to it as an Incident thereby lower grading it from a Massacre. We had the same thing with the Falklands when it was constantly referred to as a conflict not a war. Sharina I’m sorry but it was a massacre perpetrated by a group of crazed animals, who must have known it was wrong, but still continued. As I said thousands where in the same position but their dicks stayed in their pants.

by Stox 16 Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:30 am

Shirina wrote:Hello, Stox:

Most of the soldiers who fought in Vietnam were conscripts - just average kids yanked right out of their sneakers and put into combat boots. They were not particularly well-trained nor were they particularly well-screened. America had as many as 550,000 soldiers in Vietnam in 1968 alone. In any city with a population of 550,000, you're going to see murder - and that's just a standard city. Add to that military-grade weaponry, enemies trying to kill you, and the horrors of warfare, it's a small wonder that there weren't hundreds, perhaps thousands of Lt. Calleys.

Now, I'm not trying to justify what Calley did, but I often hear non-Americans bringing up the Mai Lai incident as somehow being the quintessential representation of how the US Military conducts its wars. But I have to ask - when was the last time Britain fielded an army of 550,000 in one single theater of operations? Even in WWII, the UK and all of its colonies never mustered an army of that size and put them all in one place. Nor has any other European nation with the exception of Nazi Germany during Operation Barbarossa. With half a million soldiers running around in asymmetrical combat for nearly a decade, a Mai Lai type incident was inevitable. In fact, I'm surprised there wasn't more.

The US military learned numerous valuable lessons from the Vietnam War; it was practically redesigned from the ground up. But the most important lesson learned was that the most effective army is a volunteer army which spends a year or more in training before being sent into combat. This helps minimize incidents like Mai Lai.

Again, I'm not excusing Lt. Calley, but rather I'm merely offering up a different perspective on how Mai Lai is viewed in relation to America and its military.

Hello Shirina
I cannot disagree with what you have said. I cannot think of the last UK army to field 550,000 in one go...but your quite right in pointing out the whole question of training. as its one of the most important areas within any Army. I would also full agree with you on the question of learn't lessons in Vietnam. I can only speak as I find...but US Army training when i was working with them was very high overall...yes something are not 100%, but the overall standard I myself found in the US Army very good. This will not go down well with most people..but I come away with a great deal of respect for US forces...I would far much rather have your boys with me. than not have them at all...all Armies think they are better than other Armies..it was like this in both WW1 and WW2. but the fact is different Armies bring different skills... its just how it is...

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