Do we really know how intelligent animals are?

by Papaumau Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:07 pm

This threadstarter was stimulated by one that was written by Ivan down below !

On a TV programme recently, ( sorry, cannot remember its title ), I got the shock of my life when I saw some things done by "clever" animals that I had never seen or even considered before:

There were many examples of animals like dolphins and whales and other creatures doing things that I have seen before, like using tools for example, but when I saw the presenter of the programme competing against a chimpanzee who was showing amazing memory actions and reactions with a game on a monitor screen, my mind was truly "blown-away".

I will explain:

On this screen were some random numbers set out in random spaces and then quickly covered by squares. The contestant was then supposed to remember the numbers and then touch the squares in the chronological order that the numbers were on the screen before they were covered by the squares.

OK...I hear you say, "that is easy is it not" ?

Well, the presenter that was competing with the chimp thought so too until they started to put more numbers on the screen and they started to give less and less time with which to memorise the numbers before they were covered by the squares.

At half a second of exposure of the numbers and with six numbers on the screen the chimp and the presenter were just about equal with their accuracy and speed of touching the screen in the right order but when more numbers were added to the screen and less time was given for the remembering of the numbers the chimp started to pull ahead.

By the time that there were about ten numbers on the screen and only one sixth of a second was given for memorisation of the numbers and their positions the chimp was way ahead of the presenter in the speed and accuracy of his screen-touches. After a while the presenter could not even get one right while the chimp was still getting all of them right in around eight seconds of total time.

It was made clear that this was not a test that the chimp was able to learn by repeated practice as each time the numbers were presented they were always at random.

The whole programme was fascinating and entertaining but that bit with the chimp beating the human for memory and speed of reaction was mind-blowing.

Did anyone else here see this programme as if you did I would like to talk about how animals can beat us so-called "clever" Homo-Sapiens in the many ways that require brain-power if not instinct.

Regards.....

Papaumau.

by Guest Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:28 pm

Papa Umau,

I haven’t watched that program, but I’m one of those weird folks that has his DVR set to record every first run Nature.

Among animals that fascinate the fire outta me are orcas, the true top predator. They live all over the oceans, and different “orca nations” have different cultures, at least insofar as food and language are concerned.

Check out this orca nation. Perhaps there are some MIT or Caltech educated hydrodynamics engineers amongst the citizenry:

Same scene, with commentary:

by oftenwrong Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:23 pm

Man is the only animal who trips over the same stone twice.

by Papaumau Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:29 pm

Yes Rock, I too have seen the Orca using the wave to push seals off ice floes.

On that programme I mentioned there was also a school of hump-back whales that used a very curious technique to force their fishy-food to stay in a closed shoal: One whale went round and round the shoal emitting a stream of bubbles that corralled the fish together. Another whale swam around underneath them in order to force the shoal to the surface and then about five whales came right up the centre from underneath the fish in formation so that they could catch most of them with their wide open mouths.

That kind of planning and execution of a hunting technique certainly did prove to me that whales are much more intelligent than we give them credit for.

Another excerpt from the same programme showed a crane fishing. It was not wading and doing it the way that cranes normally do, ( the water was too deep for wading ), no, it was standing on the river-bank and dropping pieces of bread in the water to attract the fish and when they came to get a bit of bread they were easily caught by the crane. While I thought that this was very smart the next thing it did shocked me. When a big fish came to get a bit of bread the crane lifted the bit of bread out of the water so the fish - that was too big for the crane to catch - did not get away with the bread. Now that was intelligent thinking.

Regards....

Papaumau.

by Guest Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:23 pm

Papa,

Some remarkable footage of wild dogs hunting and catching prey, They eem to know that cooperation is the key to survival.

African Wild Dogs Hunting Impala in Moremi Game Reserve - Bostwana

Planet Earth - African Wild Dogs

Magnificant.

Can I access the program you saw from here?

by oftenwrong Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:38 pm

The key to animal survival is to stay well away from us.

by Papaumau Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:58 pm

Hi again Rock.... ( Thanks for that, even if it was a bit gory ).

I actually found the BBC i-player that will allow you - or anybody else - to see the programme that I was talking about.

It was called "Super-smart animals" and can be accessed HERE

Enjoy, as I think that this has to be one of the best nature programmes that the BBC has ever put on.

Regards....

Papaumau.

by Guest Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:28 pm

Papa,

I adore YouTube. BBC doesn't allow me to access current TV because of legal mumbo jumbo. However...

YouTube: BBC Super Smart Animals Part 1/2

YouTube: BBC Super Smart Animals Part 2/2

by **moonbeam** Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:17 pm

Rock, I also saw that program where the orcas worked together to get the seal. Considering that seal would only be a nibble for one whale, it was somewhat interesting to see them doing so.

It's not 'smart', but I do have one cat that likes to play fetch. He's very persistent about it, too.

by Guest Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:15 pm

Papa,

That sheepdog is incredible. Do you remember how she was a bit hesistant to show the new toy, as if she was a child avoiding possible chastizement for geting it wrong?

Thank you, my Scot/Polynesian brother. I'll be watching that two-parter on and off until it's digested.

Rock

by Guest Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:17 pm

Moonbeam,

I don't know... most cats, you can't teach 'em nuthin'!

by **moonbeam** Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:50 pm

Thing is, he just does it. We didn't train him at all! One day, I need to make a video of him doing it. Otherwise, the only tricks he and the other four know is how to get into everything.

I love all kinds of nature shows. Lots to be learned!

by Guest Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:10 pm

So he trained you! Pretty sharp, if you ask me.

by **moonbeam** Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:22 pm

This same cat will lay half in the shower (between the curtain and the liner) while the shower is on and get completely soaked, so he's definitely not Mensa material though. On the other hand, he's part Siamese, and I seem to recall they don't mind water so much.

by bobby Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:59 pm

Roc wrote. Can I access the programe you saw from here?.

Hold on a mo, and i'll ask my dog.

by Guest Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:36 pm

Lesse now... Siam, or Thailand, near India (kinda sorta), home of the Bengal Tiger. Did you know that Bengal Tigers sometimes hunt in the water? They seem to enjoy water, period.

What do Bengal Tigers hunt in the water, you ask? On the program I saw, humans in boats.

by **moonbeam** Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:31 am

I did know that tigers like water, yes. And I don't blame them one bit for hunting their hunters. How can people not care that they're about to make a species extinct?! Makes me so mad, and sad.

by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:10 am

Moonbeam,

It's a shame that folks don't take the rest of Genesis 1>26 seriously, the part where mankind is to look out for other species.

There this guy that raises tigers in Southern Africa, I believe with an eye to introducing them into the wild in a place where they might survive. Do you know anything about that?

by Papaumau Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:06 am

Hi again Rock !

I was quite shocked that you were unable to use the BBC i-player to access the "Super-Smart Animals" video. I cannot image why they do that. I guess it is something to do with copyright.

May I thank you on behalf of all of the animal lovers on this site for your efforts at finding that superb programme on YouTube. I hope that many of them go and watch it as it was very impressive.

It was the brainpower of the chimp that REALLY impressed me. I wish that some of our own species had half of that power and a quarter of his sense.

I still have to see episode two yet on British TV so I won't watch it on YouTube.

OH...and...BTW...What part of the world do you hail from as I cannot access your profile ?

You may have guessed by this time that I am a Scot !

Regards....

Papaumau,

by oftenwrong Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:50 am

The BBC is financed by the TV licence fee.

The i-player facility is accordingly restricted to licence-payers. By definition, they reside in the UK.

Many BBC programmes are available in the USA on their Public Service channel.

by **moonbeam** Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:43 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Moonbeam,

It's a shame that folks don't take the rest of Genesis 1>26 seriously, the part where mankind is to look out for other species.

There this guy that raises tigers in Southern Africa, I believe with an eye to introducing them into the wild in a place where they might survive. Do you know anything about that?

No, I hadn't heard about the guy in S. Africa. I hope he's able to make it work as he wants to! I love tigers, as you might have noticed by my avatars. In fact, I took that picture myself. Wink

Too many animals are being hunted for trophy or "medicinal" purposes, with no thought given to what happens when the animal is gone forever.

by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:40 pm

You got that close to a tiger? I'm scared of you!

Genesis 1>26

There this guy

My typing while sleepy? Ugh!

by **moonbeam** Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:39 pm

No complaints from me. I work in IT, and usually have so many different instant message windows going at once, that I have taken to writing in all small letters because it's faster. It's a major effort for me to be 'proper' here!

by Guest Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:59 am

Monbeam,

Videos of tigers in Africa.

by **moonbeam** Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:43 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
You got that close to a tiger? I'm scared of you!

I missed this earlier, somehow. No, I was far away- 250 to 300 feet. My camera has a 500mm zoom lens on it though! This is a larger version of the pic.

Do we really know how intelligent animals are? IMG_4342

Do we really know how intelligent animals are? IMG_4342

by Papaumau Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:10 pm

Isn't it strange how incredibly beautiful all of the main predators are in nature ?

I mean, they do not NEED to be beautiful to be predators but they just are. I am thinking of all of the big cats and all of the main flying raptors. Indeed, I think that the Scottish Golden eagle has to be one of the most beautiful creatures on the planet.

Do we really know how intelligent animals are? Goldeneagle300_tcm9-139839_v2

Do we really know how intelligent animals are? Goldeneagle300_tcm9-139839_v2

Equally strange is how the carrion-eaters are - in the main - so ugly. I am talking about the vultures and the hyenas and the crows and suchlike.

Do we really know how intelligent animals are? _46882037_vultures-3

Do we really know how intelligent animals are? _46882037_vultures-3

Regards....

Papaumau.

by Shirina Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:23 pm

Isn't it strange how incredibly beautiful all of the main predators are in nature ?

Interesting observation. I wonder why that is? There is obviously truth to it, and they are beautiful to a human's sense of aesthetics, too, which makes it all the more strange. One would almost have to wonder if this was supposed to be an evolutionary advantage against humans; perhaps evolution granted them beauty in the hopes that humans would be less likely to kill them. If only that worked better than it seems to. Perhaps if evolution had made them cute instead of beautiful, tigers wouldn't be on the endangered species list.

by Papaumau Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:04 am

Shirina.....

I actually think that nature and evolution have done an incredible job with the design of the predators on this earth as not only are they beautiful and even majestic but their stripes and spots, ( as part of that design ), make them very good at using natural cover while they are hunting.

I also think that it is the evolution of the human animals and their requirement to design weapons that has thrown this balance of predation right out of kilter. Without guns or even spears or arrows or clubs human beings would be just as vulnerable to the big cats as a deer or a buffalo might be.

Mind you, because our eyes are at the front of our head and not at the side we too, like the rest of the predators, are efficient killers of both endangered species in the animal kingdom and of each-other. Even the most vicious of the predators do not do it because they like to do it, but we do.

Regards.....

Papaumau.

by **moonbeam** Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:42 pm

I was reading on this site here Animal Planet's 10 Smartest Animals where it lists what they consider the top 10 smartest animals. Number 5 is the crow. According to this site, "Crows living in urban areas are known to gather nuts from trees and then place them in the street for passing cars to crack open the shells. Then, after waiting patiently for the light to change, they return to the street to retrieve their nutty snack."

I wasn't aware of this but it's certainly clever of them!

by polyglide Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:48 pm

The first thing I would do is check the IQ of the presenter and then the manner in which the experiment was conducted.

Do not forget that with present day technoligy you can make furniture talk on television.

by Papaumau Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:43 pm

The smartest animals are US, of that there is no doubt !

While surfing around today I came on something that astounded me !

I am sure that we all know that the Japanese are very clever when it comes to robots and many of us will already know about ASIMO the robot. Well, the clever Japanese humans have made this robot now do thinks that were never thought possible only a few years ago.

ASIMO can now RUN forwards and backwards, jump on two feet and hop on one foot while going around in a circle. It can also now push a drinks cart, walk to the side of it, take the screw-top off a jar and pour a drink like a human can. When one realises how much processing speed and power is required for a robot to do what we do without thinking, I think that this is a phenominal step forward in robotics.

Watch it here:

Regards.....

Papaumau.

by trevorw2539 Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:09 pm

Papaumau wrote:
The smartest animals are US, of that there is no doubt !

While surfing around today I came on something that astounded me !

I am sure that we all know that the Japanese are very clever when it comes to robots and many of us will already know about ASIMO the robot. Well, the clever Japanese humans have made this robot now do thinks that were never thought possible only a few years ago.

ASIMO can now RUN forwards and backwards, jump on two feet and hop on one foot while going around in a circle. It can also now push a drinks cart, walk to the side of it, take the screw-top off a jar and pour a drink like a human can. When one realises how much processing speed and power is required for a robot to do what we do without thinking, I think that this is a phenominal step forward in robotics.

Watch it here:

Regards.....

Papaumau.

Saw the above on TV some time ago. Interesting.

In the 19th century the Luddites protested because of mechanisation. I won't go into something you will obviously know. Many jobs were lost.

In the early-mid 20th century the - for example - motor industry employed a large number of men to make cars. As 'robotics' came in so the number of men in the factory reduced.

From 'Howstuffworks'

In the coming decades, we may see robots that have artificial intelligence. Some, like Honda's ASIMO robot, will resemble the human form. They may eventually become self-aware and conscious, and be able to do anything that a human can. When we talk about robots doing the tasks of humans, we often talk about the future, but robotic surgery is already a reality. Doctors around the world are using sophisticated robots to perform surgical procedures on patients.

Not all surgical robots are equal. There are three different kinds of robotic surgery systems: supervisory-controlled systems, telesurgical systems and shared-control systems. The main difference between each system is how involved a human surgeon must be when performing a surgical procedure. On one end of the spectrum, robots perform surgical techniques without the direct intervention of a surgeon. On the other end, doctors perform surgery with the assistance of a robot, but the doctor is doing most of the work [source: Brown University]. My underlining.

Are we really smart? How far do we allow things to go? Will the future prove that the robots we are creating are cleverer than we are, and will replace us? If we allow robots to take over all the, say, work aspects of our lives, what then? What is the point? What do we do then? There is only so much we can do with our leisure time.

In the summer I spend a lot of time in my greenhouse, tunnel and garden. If a robot takes over, what do I do.

There is a side to progress we never think about.

At the moment there are things that only humans can do, such as science, mainly due to their ability to think beyond normal parameters. If, or when, robots become thinking beings what then? Hmm.

Now I'm going to be smart and study this weeks scientific magazine - drat it, where did I put the Beano? Rolling Eyes

by Papaumau Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:23 am

Thanks for the response again Trevor. ( I won't use the numbers as we all know who you are here ). Smile

While it is true that mechanisation started during the industrial revolution and us clever humans have taken it a long distance since then, ( including making robots that can do just about anything ), I am sure that even if such robots do become sentient - as in the sci-fi stories - ( I am thinking about Isaac Asimov's "I Robot" and how he worked out the three laws of robotics ), I am also sure that they will always be our servants and never our masters. ( We are too self-interested and arrogant to let that happen ).

There is always the worry that robots will replace us by doing the boring and repetitive work but I don't really worry all that much about that possibility as if, done right, it should mean that they will create the riches for us and then we will be left to use our increased free time to enjoy ourselves and to stimulate our senses by enjoying the more esoteric things in life.

It is only when the riches that are created by the use of robots is channelled to the already-rich that the ordinary people of this earth will be left in poverty and squallor. That is will not be the fault of the robots or their makers, that will be the fault of our basic and flawed human society.

Regards....

Papaumau.

by trevorw2539 Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:41 pm

Qoute Papaumau.

While it is true that mechanisation started during the industrial revolution and us clever humans have taken it a long distance since then, ( including making robots that can do just about anything ), I am sure that even if such robots do become sentient - as in the sci-fi stories - ( I am thinking about Isaac Asimov's "I Robot" and how he worked out the three laws of robotics ), I am also sure that they will always be our servants and never our masters. ( We are too self-interested and arrogant to let that happen ).

My friend XYMSSXPK (nearest translation available) from the Alpha Centauri galaxy, I believe I mentioned his cousin once before on a thread, tells me that humans are not capable of controlling robots. His race has used them for millenia and they are tricky things to control. Wink

by oftenwrong Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:09 pm

The thing about XYMSSXPK is that, despite what you might think from his name, he's definitely not Jewish.

by trevorw2539 Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:24 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The thing about XYMSSXPK is that, despite what you might think from his name, he's definitely not Jewish.

Strange. He wears kippers on both his heads. Or should that read 'Kippahs' Very Happy

by oftenwrong Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:37 pm

From the head of this topic, just now:

Robotreservdelar
DSQC, 3HAB, 3HAC, 3HNE, Kablage Största lagret i Sverige / Norden

What's the Swedish word for "cookie"?

by trevorw2539 Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:15 pm

oftenwrong wrote:From the head of this topic, just now:

Robotreservdelar
DSQC, 3HAB, 3HAC, 3HNE, Kablage Största lagret i Sverige / Norden

What's the Swedish word for "cookie"?

Is that 'cookie' as in biscuit, or 'cookie' as in Au Pair

by oftenwrong Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:44 pm

Suffice it to say that Humans share 98% of DNA with Gorillas.

by trevorw2539 Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:27 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Suffice it to say that Humans share 98% of DNA with Gorillas.

What It Really Means To Be 99% Chimpanzee
Jonathan Marks
Department of Anthropology
University of California, Berkeley
Jmarks@sscl.berkeley.edu
Presented at the Annual Meeting of the American Anthropological Association
Biological Anthropology Today:
Topics For Non-Biological Anthropologists
(Presidential Symposium)

Interesting reading.

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