Osborne calls cost of an ageing population "a burden"

First topic message reminder :

Successive governments have betrayed Britain’s pensioners by spending less on social care for the elderly than almost any other country in Europe.

Research which campaigners say ‘should shame us as a nation’ has found that Italy and France spend twice as much on their pensioners as we do in the UK.

Britain comes 17th out of the 20 major European countries surveyed, behind wealthy Germany as well as former Communist countries such as Poland and the Czech Republic.

Miserable: Proportionally the UK spend less than half of the what Italy do on the elderly

The shocking betrayal of the elderly, many of whom fought to defend Britain’s freedom in the Second World War, is revealed in a damning report by the over-50s group Saga.

They say it shows that the UK simply does not respect and care about the elderly as much as our EU neighbours do.

The tiny amount of public spending committed to the elderly – 5.8 per cent of national income compared to 11.7 per cent in Italy – is a key reason behind the scandal of tens of thousands of people having to sell their homes every year to pay for their residential care.

The UK rank a lowly 17th out of 20 nations, with Italy way out in front

Other countries fund care home fees through taxes or national insurance systems, meaning care is available when people need it. The report warns that our low spending rate has also led to an enormous burden on family members, who are left having to take on roles as unpaid carers because the state does not step in.

And it means thousands of pensioners are isolated in their own houses because not enough home helps, meals on wheels services and day centres are available.

Director general of Saga, Ros Altmann, said our low spending on elderly social care could explain why women in Britain die earlier than those in any other major country in Western Europe.

The two countries at the top of the care funding table – France and Italy – have the longest life expectancy for women in Europe. They live to an average of more than 84 years, compared to 81 in England – lower even than Slovenia.

‘These figures show how generations of British politicians have betrayed our increasingly ageing population and have failed to fund properly the care so many of them will clearly need..

‘It should shame us as a nation that other European countries seem to take the needs of their older population more seriously than we do.’. also due to low State pensions,-

Cold kills 180 British pensioners a day during winter

Please go to this link and sign this petition on the Government’s web site.

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All elderly people should receive residential care free, via the State, and a much higher basic State pension free of means testing

Responsible department: Department for Work and Pensions

The Government must fund elderly people's rights to free residential Care paid for by the State because our elderly people have paid into the system all their working lives, and Government must also pay all pensioners now and in the future, a much higher basic state pension by restoring the National Insurance Act born of a Labour Government in 1974 which linked increases in the State pension to male average earnings, or The Retail Price Index ( RPI), whichever the greater. In 1975, the then Labour Government passed the "Social Security Act", introducing a State Earnings Related Pensions Scheme, this was considered in the pensions industry, the most cost effective scheme ever.

Please sign this petition.

Throughout their working life, most people have a choice between hissing it up the wall, or saving for their old age.

A few unfortunates find themselves on hard times despite their best efforts, and for them the State (that's all of us) has a responsibility to maintain minimum standards of dignity.

A larger proportion however have always spent their income faster than it came in, allowing themselves the pleasure of nights out with the Lads, foreign holidays, a nice car and Christmasses they can't remember. For those, I wouldn't cross the road to help any further than the basic pension they already receive, and which is all they deserve.

For all the petitions on offer, there will always be Oliver Twists among the signatories. "Please, Sir, I'd like some more."

Quote : " Throughout their working life, most people have a choice between hissing it up the wall, or saving for their old age."

How very, very true. Self-denial when young is a hugely difficult choice and there are many who ,since they cannot know how long they may live to reap the benefits, decide to 'spend it all' as it arrives.

The luckiest folk are those who were brought up with very little and to whom, therefore, continuing to allow themselves only modest expenditure when 'better times' arrived was no real burden. If such people are fortunate enough to get into middle age , some may even be able to retire relatively early and have a more than comfortable lifestyle with all they reasonably wish to acquire. But the journey is a long one and requires not a little good luck along the way. Be thankful if you made that journey unscathed.

But one thing is for sure : if you are not prepared to save long-term, and in a disciplined way, there is no way certain options will ever be available to you...

oftenwrong wrote:Throughout their working life, most people have a choice between hissing it up the wall, or saving for their old age.

A few unfortunates find themselves on hard times despite their best efforts, and for them the State (that's all of us) has a responsibility to maintain minimum standards of dignity.

A larger proportion however have always spent their income faster than it came in, allowing themselves the pleasure of nights out with the Lads, foreign holidays, a nice car and Christmasses they can't remember. For those, I wouldn't cross the road to help any further than the basic pension they already receive, and which is all they deserve.

For all the petitions on offer, there will always be Oliver Twists among the signatories. "Please, Sir, I'd like some more."

They paid their taxes and NI contributions, and that's good enough for me. Keep carrying your board.

Your name and/or message could appear on the Board for a modest sum. Enquire for details.

Never let it be said that nobody else ever agrees with oftenwrong...

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from today's Sunday Times

Mick O'Shea, who scooped a £10.2m lottery jackpot in 2005 with his wife Jean, defends his right to claim benefit payments more than six years later.
O'Shea, 73, of Sneinton Nottingham receives £500 a month in disability allowance, which is not means-tested.
He said, "I worked for 40 years and I am entitled to it."

"Entitlement" seems to be a strongly-held belief among the elderly.

Treasurey funds basicly consists of a pool of money with an "In door" and an "Out door".

The In door recieves income into the pool, and the Out door is where income leaves to be used as expenditure, there are many areas where more funding can easily be moraly justified, like for example on state pensions.

The Scandinavian nations are noted for providing good public services, good state pensions and a fair and generous welfare system, but countries like Norway and Sweden have very low defence budgets compared to the United Kingdom.

The UK is a relatively low tax nation, almost every other EU nation has higher taxation, yet they have much higher standards of living than we do.
It seems that high tax does not automaticly lead to a poorer society, indeed the opposite appears to be often true.

This then would appear to blow apart the strand of thought / theory which has been part of Conservative political ideology since time began.

oftenwrong wrote:from today's Sunday Times

Mick O'Shea, who scooped a £10.2m lottery jackpot in 2005 with his wife Jean, defends his right to claim benefit payments more than six years later.
O'Shea, 73, of Sneinton Nottingham receives £500 a month in disability allowance, which is not means-tested.
He said, "I worked for 40 years and I am entitled to it."

"Entitlement" seems to be a strongly-held belief among the elderly.

Damn right, it should be.

witchfinder wrote:Treasurey funds basicly consists of a pool of money with an "In door" and an "Out door".

The In door recieves income into the pool, and the Out door is where income leaves to be used as expenditure, there are many areas where more funding can easily be moraly justified, like for example on state pensions.

The Scandinavian nations are noted for providing good public services, good state pensions and a fair and generous welfare system, but countries like Norway and Sweden have very low defence budgets compared to the United Kingdom.

The UK is a relatively low tax nation, almost every other EU nation has higher taxation, yet they have much higher standards of living than we do.
It seems that high tax does not automaticly lead to a poorer society, indeed the opposite appears to be often true.

This then would appear to blow apart the strand of thought / theory which has been part of Conservative political ideology since time began.

The right of the Tory party believes in low income tax, and small state.

Or more accurately, it favours relatively low income tax for the better off while not caring about the burden on the lower-paid , and to pretend that they want a 'small State' when in fact they interfere as much as any Labour government but want everything done for nothing....

Phil Hornby wrote:Or more accurately, it favours relatively low income tax for the better off while not caring about the burden on the lower-paid , and to pretend that they want a 'small State' when in fact they interfere as much as any Labour government but want everything done for nothing....

""but want everything done for nothing....""".

Elborate please. Albeit I agree with your initial few words completely.

When it comes down to brass tacks the Tory politician actually doesn't want to see the end of all that so-called 'pointless bureacracy' which the public services undertake. They still expect the generation of all manner of data and statistics and for 'something to be done' and solutions to be generated by such services when the heat of public opinion is on over key issues which are troublesome.

The difficulty for the archetypal Tory is that somebody - an actual person - has to do it, and that costs money. It is why Cameron tries to fill the growing void in service provision by the 'Big Society' - ie charities or other volunteers who he thinks will do the dirty work that he still needs but at no cost to his government's coffers .

One regular example of all this is the expectation that a local authority will still be expected- despite all the funding which has been removed - to give the same level of input to schools in difficulties which have supposedly 'left the control' of that authority. It is bullying and hypocritical, but that only makes it more attractive to Tories who cannot admit that they love all the goodies which public service brings - but simply hate footing the bill...

Some people just don't know when they are well-off. It is possible to visit the entire thousand-mile coastline bordering the Southern Mediterranean, from Morocco through Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt without encountering an OAP - unless they're a tourist.

Ironicly, if you travel on Europes Mediterranean coast, you cant walk ten steps without tripping over one.

OW. A tourist, isn't that what they call a beautifull woman in Poland.

My opinion no longer counts on such matters, though I do recall asking a Spaniard how to choose a particularly succulent slice of mountain ham, and he replied, "In the same way as choosing a woman."

I'll stick to the Menu, it's safer - and inevitably cheaper.

It makes me very angry to keep hearing different people saying "Elderly People" are getting so large in numbers that they cannot afford the NHS. How come then that people from other countries come straight into this country and receive NHS without ever contributing to it like the elderly have done so for years. Interpreters are provided free. They get housing before our own people. If our people loose their homes they are told "You brought it on yourself" yet the same does not go for people who come into this country who leave their countries and therefore should not be given housing for the same reason.

The Elderly should be treated with the utmost care and this should not be a burden particularly if this country stops paying out bailouts for other countries plus their banks and pay millions a day to the EU who waste money and have not even signed off their accounts for years and ensure themselves large salaries and perks.

If the NHS becomes 49% private it will be a disgrace particularly as a lot of new hospitals are built under Private Financial Initative for which the Taxpayer including the elderly have to pay heavily for.

Ivanhoe wrote:We need an attitude change in Britain about how we feel about the elderly, because for far too long the attitude has been, out of site, out of mind.
Europe shames Britain on care for the elderly as we rank 17th out of 20 in list of money spent on our elders
Successive governments have betrayed Britain’s pensioners by spending less on social care for the elderly than almost any other country in Europe.
Research which campaigners say ‘should shame us as a nation’ has found that Italy and France spend twice as much on their pensioners as we do in the UK.
Britain comes 17th out of the 20 major European countries surveyed, behind wealthy Germany as well as former Communist countries such as Poland and the Czech Republic.
Miserable: Proportionally the UK spend less than half of the what Italy do on the elderly.
It shows that the UK simply does not respect and care about their elderly people as much as our EU neighbours do.
The tiny amount of public spending committed to the elderly – 5.8 per cent of national income compared to 11.7 per cent in Italy – is a key reason behind the scandal of tens of thousands of people having to sell their homes every year to pay for their residential care.
The Pensioners Winter Fuel Payment has been cut by this right wing Tory lead coalition.
For the over 60’s, the annual payment has been cut by £50, leaving £200.
For the over 80’s, the annual payment has been cut by £100, leaving £300. This is to supposedly save money.
Please go to this link, and listen to my plea to help the elderly, and then please sign my pensions petition on the Government’s web site.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

100,000 signatures need to be gathered for this issue over the next 6 months, for the issue to be raised by the politicians and voted for or against in the House of Commons.

Please play your part.

Thank you

I could not agree more with your statement Ivanhoe.....We need an attitude change in Britain about how we feel about the elderly....sums it up very well in my mind.

Ivanhoe wrote:

Phil Hornby wrote:Or more accurately, it favours relatively low income tax for the better off while not caring about the burden on the lower-paid , and to pretend that they want a 'small State' when in fact they interfere as much as any Labour government but want everything done for nothing....

""but want everything done for nothing....""".

Elborate please. Albeit I agree with your initial few words completely.

The fact is the old, sick and unemployed are going without heating and food as the Tory cuts bit. while the 1% at the top are looked after by this government. quite wrong in my view.


UNEMPOLOYMENT, sick and OLD LINKED, AS MORE PEOPLE HAVE TO CHOSE BETWEEN FOOD OR HEATING.

In addition to causing additional deaths, there are many illnesses which are made
worse by cold temperatures:
Cardio-vascular disease:

• The cold causes thickening of blood, therefore increases blood pressure,
leading to an increased risk of heart attacks and strokes
Respiratory Illness:

• Dampness is associated with cold houses; damp increases mould growths,
which can cause asthma and respiratory infections
• The cold lowers resistance to respiratory functions

• Coldness impairs lung function and can trigger broncho-constriction in asthma
and COPD

Musculoskeletal Diseases:
• Arthritis and damaged joints
• Back pain
Cold houses affect mobility and increase falls and other injuries:
• Symptoms of arthritis become worse in cold damp houses.
• Strength and dexterity decrease as temperatures drop, increasing the risk of
non-intentional injuries and falls, particularly in older people
Mental health and Social Wellbeing:

• Damp, cold housing is associated with an increase in mental health problems,
particularly depression
• Some people become socially isolated as they are reluctant to invite friends to
a cold house

oftenwrong wrote:from today's Sunday Times

Mick O'Shea, who scooped a £10.2m lottery jackpot in 2005 with his wife Jean, defends his right to claim benefit payments more than six years later.
O'Shea, 73, of Sneinton Nottingham receives £500 a month in disability allowance, which is not means-tested.
He said, "I worked for 40 years and I am entitled to it."

"Entitlement" seems to be a strongly-held belief among the elderly.

This man has worked all his life paying taxes and NI contrbutions, of course he is entitled to his "non-means tested" disability allowance.

Stox 16 wrote:

Ivanhoe wrote:We need an attitude change in Britain about how we feel about the elderly, because for far too long the attitude has been, out of site, out of mind.
Europe shames Britain on care for the elderly as we rank 17th out of 20 in list of money spent on our elders
Successive governments have betrayed Britain’s pensioners by spending less on social care for the elderly than almost any other country in Europe.
Research which campaigners say ‘should shame us as a nation’ has found that Italy and France spend twice as much on their pensioners as we do in the UK.
Britain comes 17th out of the 20 major European countries surveyed, behind wealthy Germany as well as former Communist countries such as Poland and the Czech Republic.
Miserable: Proportionally the UK spend less than half of the what Italy do on the elderly.
It shows that the UK simply does not respect and care about their elderly people as much as our EU neighbours do.
The tiny amount of public spending committed to the elderly – 5.8 per cent of national income compared to 11.7 per cent in Italy – is a key reason behind the scandal of tens of thousands of people having to sell their homes every year to pay for their residential care.
The Pensioners Winter Fuel Payment has been cut by this right wing Tory lead coalition.
For the over 60’s, the annual payment has been cut by £50, leaving £200.
For the over 80’s, the annual payment has been cut by £100, leaving £300. This is to supposedly save money.
Please go to this link, and listen to my plea to help the elderly, and then please sign my pensions petition on the Government’s web site.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

100,000 signatures need to be gathered for this issue over the next 6 months, for the issue to be raised by the politicians and voted for or against in the House of Commons.

Please play your part.

Thank you

I could not agree more with your statement Ivanhoe.....We need an attitude change in Britain about how we feel about the elderly....sums it up very well in my mind.

Stox 16, I have had this posting on my facebook, the response has been virtually negative

Frances Fox wrote:It makes me very angry to keep hearing different people saying "Elderly People" are getting so large in numbers that they cannot afford the NHS. How come then that people from other countries come straight into this country and receive NHS without ever contributing to it like the elderly have done so for years. Interpreters are provided free. They get housing before our own people. If our people loose their homes they are told "You brought it on yourself" yet the same does not go for people who come into this country who leave their countries and therefore should not be given housing for the same reason.

The Elderly should be treated with the utmost care and this should not be a burden particularly if this country stops paying out bailouts for other countries plus their banks and pay millions a day to the EU who waste money and have not even signed off their accounts for years and ensure themselves large salaries and perks.

If the NHS becomes 49% private it will be a disgrace particularly as a lot of new hospitals are built under Private Financial Initative for which the Taxpayer including the elderly have to pay heavily for.

Frances Fox, I see you a UKIP member, well let me enlighted you to something. It does not matter how much money comes back to this country, Britain, care of other Government expenditure priorities under the Tory right wing, and Ille tell you why ?

Because the Tory right wing do not believe in the role of the State, they believe in privatisation and charities running things. The right of the Tory party in Government believe in a small state, and lower income tax.

What Britain needs is the return of tradional Labour and it's core beliefs and values, but this would mean a retuirn to income tax increasing on the population, and the British dont like paying income tax, so that, is that.

Britain politically is a low income tax nation, and has been since the 80's.

Frances Fox wrote:It makes me very angry to keep hearing different people saying "Elderly People" are getting so large in numbers that they cannot afford the NHS. How come then that people from other countries come straight into this country and receive NHS without ever contributing to it like the elderly have done so for years. Interpreters are provided free. They get housing before our own people. If our people loose their homes they are told "You brought it on yourself" yet the same does not go for people who come into this country who leave their countries and therefore should not be given housing for the same reason.

The Elderly should be treated with the utmost care and this should not be a burden particularly if this country stops paying out bailouts for other countries plus their banks and pay millions a day to the EU who waste money and have not even signed off their accounts for years and ensure themselves large salaries and perks.

If the NHS becomes 49% private it will be a disgrace particularly as a lot of new hospitals are built under Private Financial Initative for which the Taxpayer including the elderly have to pay heavily for.

The other side of the coin is a large number of British ex-pats who have retired to Spain in order to become a burden on THEIR Seguridad Social. Locals on the Costa del Sol are not amused when they find that all the seats in the Doctor's waiting-room are occupied by foreigners.

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"But MPs have overturned peers' amendments which would have spared the disabled, war widows and foster carers from seeing their handouts cut if they refused to accept a suitable alternative home."

""We have formed the view it is neither good value for the taxpayer, nor for those people, that we pay for those in social housing to have spare rooms."

It's wigwams, tents and yetts when ye get old or ill

Enjoy

Well that now means my 78 year old mother-in-law will be moving out of the council house she has lived in for the past 53 years.......

The 'Caring Tory's'................

How many rooms does Chequers have? after all it is owned by teh country which must make it social housing........the same a Buckingham Palace!!!!

Ivanhoe, traditional Labour was overtaken by New Labour and cannot see it returning to the Old Labour which my Dad fought for as many others did and as a child delivered leaflets for a Labour MP Arthur Skeffington to get into power which he did. My Dad came from a Conservative family but when married and working hard for his family doing nightwork on poor money he realised this had to be altered and therefore fought for under the Bakers Union to get decent wages. I am ver proud of my Dad for what he and others like him.

You probably remember what I used to state on the MSN Boards - Conservatives, New Labour, with Liberal Democrats approval, signed treaty after treaty all detrimental to our country and I cannot forgive them for that.

Have you ever looked at UKIP's policies. Did you know UKIP MEPs have been the only ones to fight for people taken away from this country without evidence to be chained before they leave this country to go to some foreign jail. You cannot say that about the other parties.

Cheers

Frances

often wrong. I cannot see that the other side of the coin is " that British ex-pats have become a burden on THEIR Seguridad Social. Locals on the Costa del Sol are not amused when they find that all the seats in the Doctor's waiting-room are occupied by foreigners " as Spain does not have a National Health Service. However, I do know that some people have lost their homes and those that bought their homes in Spain by selling their house in Britain have no money left to come home as some of those who lost their homes were rich enough to came back to this country.
.

Frances Fox wrote:often wrong. ....Spain does not have a National Health Service.
.

That's going to come as a surprise to the Spanish people, who have enjoyed free medical attention almost as long as the UK.

oftenwrong, I have never heard of Spain having a National Health Service and that is the truth so apologise for my error. Tell me does Britain have to pay Spain for British people to use their health service and if they have to have interpreters?

Hi Frances...this is what I found out, but no mention of an interpreter

You will be treated on the same basis as a resident of Spain. Remember, each country’s health system is different and might not include all the things you would expect to get free of charge from the NHS. This may mean that you have to make a patient contribution to the cost of your care. You may be able to seek reimbursement for this cost when you are back in the UK.

blueturando. Thank you so much for your email and trust that oftenwrong will see and read it.

I received a letter from my MP saying that the NHS will not be privatised but still worried that it will because Hospitals do not have their own cleaners but contract cleaners from private firms who are as a business need profit.

We have to pay prescriptions if working but I have read that the NHS is owed money from other countries and not receiving it.

Cheers

Frances

Naivety has its attraction, but ignorance is not bliss.

Without wishing to send everybody to sleep, all individual residents of the European Union have access to the National Health Service equivalent in all other Countries of the European Union.

The agreement is that relatively minor expenses are born by the Country providing the service. Complicated ailments usually result in repatriation.

In Chancellor George Osborne’s budget Statement, Mr Osborne, said this, and I quote. We will also address the rising costs of an ageing population, and the burden this places on future generations.

Well, George Osborne really has shown his true colours here.

Not only has this Tory Chancellor arrogantly decided to increase the basic State pensions via a miserly £5.30 from this April, taking the State pension to around £104 a week, while keeping means testing in place, he wants to give future pensions a £140 basic State pension based on contributions.

What about today’s unemployed, how will they contribute to their State pension ? How will they be able to afford a private pension ?
The Tory’s beginning under Margaret Thatcher over 30 years ago, care nothing for the most vulnerable in our society.

Thatcher proved this when she broke the State pensions link with male average earnings in 1980, and George Osborne proved it by referring to our elderly people as “burdens”.

It is today’s generation of pensioners who have made all the sacrifices, whilst the oldest came through the War years. Tomorrows generation pensioners have had no such sacrifices, yet they will be paid a £140 State pension based on work and contributions.

This Tory Chancellor, has deliberately placed a wedge between today’s generation of workers and today’s generation off pensioners pensioners.

The countries of Europe revere their pensioners, and State pensions are higher because it this, and with no means testing. And the European people fight for their rights, because their rights are sacrosanct to them, there are no such social divisions, and there is no Ageism in European countries, like there is in Britain.

The problem for the government is that not only are a good number of those old people totally unproductive and a drain on society but, to make it worse, some don't vote Conservative...

Also note that Gideon has decided to allow the current pensioners higher tax allowances to'wither on the vine' as a previous Tory Chancellor would often say when not raising any threshold.........

iteresting that the target date for the £140 pension is 2014 just before the next election.....

I must say i am surprised that our few tory supporters have not been on hailing a great Tory Budget or is they are still waiting for Central Office directions?

Yes, those Tory Boys are as silent as a Bishop in carpet slippers tiptoeing from a tart's boudoir...

The only surprise is that the Tory Party seem to have forgotten the lesson of history, which is that if ANYBODY is going to vote for them, it will be the Pensioners.

oftenwrong wrote:The only surprise is that the Tory Party seem to have forgotten the lesson of history, which is that if ANYBODY is going to vote for them, it will be the Pensioners.

This is because many pensioners only ever vote the way their parents did, without having any knowledge of right wing Tory ideology.

The Tory's have always relied on fear and political ignorance to gain power and keep power.

What a non-budget this was, pensioners are better off (good) why whinge over something they've never had when they've been given a rise first. Companies buying homes are being hit by extra stamp duty whether it's offshore or not. Extra stamp duty on homes over £2m, lower taxes to companies generating jobs, giving child benefit to those in need. On the whole a neutral budget barring the fact that drivers, drinkers and smokers will fund it. I guess it's an equal whinge from all sides.

tlttf wrote:What a non-budget this was, pensioners are better off (good) why whinge over something they've never had when they've been given a rise first. Companies buying homes are being hit by extra stamp duty whether it's offshore or not. Extra stamp duty on homes over £2m, lower taxes to companies generating jobs, giving child benefit to those in need. On the whole a neutral budget barring the fact that drivers, drinkers and smokers will fund it. I guess it's an equal whinge from all sides.

The pensioners haven't been 'given a rise'. The £5.30 'rise' is simply down to the fact that inflation in September 2011 hit a high of 5.2%. The month on which the increase is calculated. Had it been lower at, say 3%, that is what pensioners would have received. No thanks to this Government then.

tlttf wrote:What a non-budget this was, pensioners are better off (good) why whinge over something they've never had when they've been given a rise first. Companies buying homes are being hit by extra stamp duty whether it's offshore or not. Extra stamp duty on homes over £2m, lower taxes to companies generating jobs, giving child benefit to those in need. On the whole a neutral budget barring the fact that drivers, drinkers and smokers will fund it. I guess it's an equal whinge from all sides.

""pensioners are better off (good)""

How patronising of you.