The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  , but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.

First of all let me point out one thing: The old divisions of left and right are dead. If you continue to vote along those lines, your wasting your vote and fooling yourself.

UK politics is divided along the line now of EU or NO EU. Unfortunately, the Europhiles control the LibDems, Labour and the Tories, so it absolutely irrelevant which one you vote for, you will get the same set of policies (most of them covert, and part of the same shared hidden agenda).

Why do you think David Cameron has just committed Electoral suicide by putting off an Eu referendum till 2017? Because he knows (or at least he thinks) that as a result Labour will win. This does not bother him, because like most europhiles, he is primarily loyal to the EU. So as long as him or his europhile mates in Labour or Lib Dems are in control, thats ok. Labour will refuse to give us a democratic choice on it, and even if we got a cast iron promise, it wouldnt happen till about 2023, so thats nearly 10 years the Europhiles have to let in another 5 million immigrants, all of whom will be given the vote, and will ofc vote for the EU. Its gerrymandering on an epic scale by a dirty cartel of lying europhiles.

To that end, you have to realise that the UK has in effect been a one party state for 30 years. You get the same policies from three identical but differently named parties. UKIP, however, may well put a spanner in the works by providing for the first time in 30 years an anti-Eu rallying point.

Now lets address the lies.

Labour, Libdems and Tories all lie. Not one of them is any better than any other.

Look at the lies told to us by all three parties about the EU

"Nothing will do more damage to the pro-European movement than giving room to the suspicion that we have something to hide, that we do not have the "cojones" to carry our argument to the people." — Nick Clegg, the Guardian, 15th October 2003

"The electorate should be asked for their opinion when all our questions have been answered, when all the details are known, when the legislation has been finally tempered and scrutinised." — Rt Hon. Tony Blair MP, speech to the House of Commons, 20th April 2004

"This constitutional treaty can only come into force once it has been ratified in accordance with the constitutional arrangements of each member state. In the UK, this will require primary legislation amending the European Communities Act 1972 and then endorsement in a referendum." — Rt Hon. Jack Straw MP, Foreign Secretary, speech to the House of Commons, 26th January 2005

"The Government have made it clear that the constitutional treaty will be ratified in the UK only after a referendum." — Geoff Hoon MP, Europe Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 23rd May 2006

"There is no question of any constitutional treaty going through without the express consent of the British people . . . Regardless of how other members vote, we will have a referendum on the subject." — Rt Hon. Tony Blair MP, Prime Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 21st June 2004

"The Government have consistently made it clear that the mechanism in the United Kingdom whereby the European draft constitutional treaty could be implemented is approval by the House of Commons followed by a referendum of the people of Britain. There is no question of implementing it by the back door." — Douglas Alexander, Europe Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 31st January 2006

"The EU's constitution is so new and large a document that it would be right to hold a referendum on it. " — Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Danish Prime Minister, EU Observer, 31st May 2003

"I am logically in favour of a referendum. It would be the only legitimate way. " — Jacques Chirac, French President, speaking about the EU Constitution at the EU Thessaloniki Summit, 21st-22nd June 2003

"The referendum should go ahead in any event. Of course it should." — Rt Hon. Tony Blair MP, Prime Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 20th April 2004

"It is absolutely clear that there should be a referendum on the European constitutional treaty, and that remains the Government's position." — Geoff Hoon MP, Europe Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 16th January 2007

"We will put it to the British people in a referendum." — Gordon Brown, General Election Manifesto, 2005

"... ratification must be subject to a referendum of the British people." — Liberal Democrat Party, General Election Manifesto, 2005

Lie after lie after lie after lie.

How anyone can be so stupid and gullible to continue to fall for the lies of the Lib/Lab/Con party and keep voting for them baffles me.

See heres a question ALL labour supporters avoid, even the owner of this forum has avoided it twice on Twitter:

If the Labour party is the party of the working class, explain why it is in the working class's interest to allow 5 million immigrants in, to create a vast pool of cheap labour? Its a fact that 90% of the 1.1 million new jobs created during 2001 -2011 went to immigrant workers. Whats more, because of the vast pool of cheap labour, many jobs that were on higher than minimum wage were turned into agency jobs bang on minimum wage and taken by immigrants.

The labour party is supposed to stand up for the interests of the working class. Instead we had a labour government which did the EU's dirty work, and gave our kids jobs away to immigrants on lower wages, thus undoing 150 years of Union work in raising the conditions of the working class.

In Boston and Spalding, for example, all jobs are now advertised in Polish first and then english, and you cannot get a job in any of the food processing jobs unless you can speak Polish, Working in the Geest factory, for example is like walking into Gdansk or Gdynya

The labour party europhiles utterly betrayed the working man of this country, and sold them down the river to the EU, long before the torie europhiles came along.

Its utterly undefendable.

Number of times the question has been avoide don Twitter by Forum owner 4

So the majority of politicians are secret Europhiles? That was a well-kept secret. Presumably because the majority of ELECTORS seem to be of the UKIP tendency.

Oh I say, we got an answer:

Ivan White ‏@ivanwhite48

@RichardLionhea Immigrants didn't take ALL new jobs - and what was to stop indigenous Brits taking them? They probably didn't want them.

First of all. the labour party failed to protect its own voters from a wave of cheap foriegn labour WHICH TONY BLAIR DELIBERATELY LET IN TO ACHIEVE EXACTLY THAT AIM!!

Second, many of the jobs were created by making workers redundant, then employing agency workers on lower wages to do same job.

Many agencies employ illigal immigrants on much lower than minimum wage- there was a case two days ago af a Care Worker agency employing such pople on 19p an hour below minimum

Of all parties. labour is supposed to protect the working class. They failed to do this

YouGov, the totally biassed statistics office quoted on Twitter by this sites owner agrees that 90% of all new jobs created during Nu Labours reign went to immigrant workers. (Peter Kellner, Head of YouGov, is married to Catherine Ashton, Baroness Ashton of Upholland, a Labour Party politician and the first High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, and you can expect all ther statistics to be slanted and biassed towards labour and the EU)

It is the duty of the government to protct the interests of the citizens of this country. Whilst we had unemployed people, especially working class people, no government should allow those people to have to compete for jobs, especially minimum wage jobs, in this country with foreign workers.

Labours border free for all has been a dereliction of is duty to the working class, and has undone 150 years of Union work in raising working conditions and wages. The Labour party should support such work as second nature, Instead Blair and Brown set about undermining this work, and destroying the power of the Unions. To that end, Blair and Brown did a better job than Thatcher.

Anyone who thinks they are currently a member of a Socialist Labour party is deluded. The Labour Party of George Orwell died the day Niel Kinnock fell over on the beach in Brighton. Similarly, there is no such thing as the old Tory Party. All we have is three versions of the Social Democrats, and there all pro-EU, anti working class and anti-british.

oftenwrong wrote:So the majority of politicians are secret Europhiles? That was a well-kept secret. Presumably because the majority of ELECTORS seem to be of the UKIP tendency.

its not even a secret. Lib/Lab/Con are all controlled by Europhiles determined to keep us in Europe, and ultimately to make us part of the United States of Greater Germany, which as been the plan since Moltke Snr thought of it around 1870.

"....to make us part of the United States of Greater Germany, which as been the plan since Moltke Snr thought of it around 1870."

Herr von Moltke to afford him the courtesy appropriate to the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_von_Moltke_the_Elder

Internetcynic.....You are my hero already!!!

At last someone who tells it how it is and not through rose tinted glasses. Although I doubt you will get a reasonable response as dealing with the truth is difficult for some.

As a Tory I am very disappointed that this government has NOT done waht it promised to do....and that is to get a grip on immigration levels. If they were serious they would say to the EU...Sorry we cannot open our borders to potentially hundreds of thousands of migrants from Bulgaria and Romania because we do not have the jobs, the infrastructure or enough money to keep those who do not find work on benefits. Our political partys are guilty of treason against the British people

Internetcynic wrote:UK politics is divided along the line now of EU or NO EU.

What nonsense. Europe is only the 4th-most important issue to the voting decision even of UKIP voters. To those considering voting for UKIP, it's only the 5th most important.

Of those stating themselves as likely to vote UKIP, 72% voted either UKIP or Tory in the last election. Only 4% voted Labour.

And that's just among people who vote, or are considering voting, for UKIP. To the general electorate, it's far further down the list. To say UK politics is now decided along those lines is on a par with saying it's divided along the lines of support/non-support for gay marriage.

In fact, gay marriage rates higher as a vote-decider - 7% of people say the issue would be important in deciding the way they vote, compared to only 6% for the EU. Neither make it into the top 10 issues:



See also:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2013/01/economistipsos-mori-issues-index
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/6715
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/category/yougov

Great post Cynic, love your argument and irrespective of how this "pro-EU" forum will try to throw figures at it, you've actually hit the nail on the head. As Steve kindly shows Unemployment, economy and race/immigration are at the top of peoples concerns. Resolve the immigration problem and the rest fall into line by default.

Interestingly, given the figures, it's apparent that most people don't associate the EU with the 'immigration problem'. As you'll know, t, I'm far from unequivocally pro-EU - but on balance, for most ordinary people, staying in is less damaging that leaving.

Most people seem to agree with that, too, as a quick look at the latest yougov polls show:



More people think we'll be harmed by leaving than think we'll be better off - and the number saying 'harmed' has increased since the last poll (figures in the grey column).

Far more people, too, think the UK will have less influence in the world if it leaves.

Hold the Front Page! I've just read that The Vogons, an alien race, intend to destroy Earth to make way for a hyperspace bypass.

this "pro-EU" forum

tlttf. This thread was started by a UKIP candidate from the last general election, and this forum is neither pro nor anti the EU; you will find plenty of different opinions if you bother to read the messages. Some of us on the left think the EU safeguards employment rights, while some see the EU as an instrument of neo-liberalism pushing an austerity programme that doesn't work.

Still, I'm glad you enjoyed Internetcynic's post, especially as he's telling everyone on Twitter that I deleted it!

Ivan wrote:

this "pro-EU" forum

tlttf. This thread was started by a UKIP candidate from the last general election, and this forum is neither pro nor anti the EU; you will find plenty of different opinions if you bother to read the messages. Some of us on the left think the EU safeguards employment rights, while some see the EU as an instrument of neo-liberalism pushing an austerity programme that doesn't work.

Still, I'm glad you enjoyed Internetcynic's post, especially as he's telling everyone on Twitter that I deleted it!

Good point Ivan. Myself I'm very pro-Europe but anti EU (In last Euro election I voted "No to EU, yes to Democracy" campaign backed by various Trade unions and Left parties). The EU itself is a talking shop for keeping the rich elites in place and the workers under the boot heel with only token employment rights. Now if we had an EU run for the benefit of mass of the people this would be a good thing.

Lie after lie after lie after lie.

Internetcynic. LOL. That's a bit rich coming from you.

Since you’re so fond of quoting from Twitter, let’s see what you’ve been posting there:-

"Went onto @ivanwhite48 's forum, demoished his idiot tweets in one post. hes now deleted that post . Censorship, labours only way to win"

"@ivanwhite48 Oh ivan, you resorted to true labour strategy. Instead of defending your position, you just deleted my posts to shut me up."

Yet, lo and behold, your posts are still here! And since you have so much to say about politicians telling lies, why are you telling so many yourself??

"LOL @ivanwhite48 is a looney lefty, i demolished him on twitter and his own forum ,so he resorted to labour party strategy and banned me!!"

"You have to visit @ivanwhite48 's forum. He is totally unable to defend his looney lefty views, and bans you instead!!"

I didn’t ban you (for 24 hours) but the board moderator did. Placing adverts on this forum is strictly forbidden, only the site owners can do that. Then you started inciting others to come here and make trouble:-

"@David_V_Smith @dukesy12 @ivanwhite48 DO go and register and give him some stick, apparantly he bans anyone who disagres with him"

"@David_V_Smith @dukesy12 @ivanwhite48 and plz do retweet his username, looney lefties are such fun................"

I can count on one hand the number of people who have been permanently banned since this forum was started in October 2011. However, if you invite people here for the sole purpose of making trouble, then expect the forum rules (which you clearly didn’t bother to read) to be enforced by the staff.

What you forgot to add on Twitter is that after posting your lies about me, you then blocked me to stop me from replying. What a coward! No problem, I’ll block you too when I’ve finished this, I don’t want your trash polluting my Twitter stream.

Moving on to the content of your rants, so many quotations in one post just shows your inability to construct an argument. Quotations should be used to support an argument, not to replace it.

There will always be ‘left’ and ‘right’ in politics, and to pretend otherwise just shows your foolishness. Right-wingers tend to support a small state, with people keeping as much of their money as they can and sod everyone else. Rich people, who tend to use fewer public services such as health and education, tend to prefer that arrangement. Left-wingers traditionally believe that we should care for people from the cradle to the grave and that a society functions better for everyone if it is more equal.

http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2010/11/inequality-social-health-essay

As skwalker1964 has pointed out on this thread, the EU is not a priority to most people. Cameron’s promise of a referendum gave him a ‘bounce’ in the polls which barely lasted a week.

Back in 2004, the EU talked about a new constitution, as your quotes indicate. Before a new constitution could take effect, it would need the ratification, without exception, of every member country. At the general election of May 2005, Blair promised a referendum before we signed up to a new constitution. Within a month of that election, the constitution had already been rejected by two countries and was therefore ‘dead’. What would be the point of wasting millions of pounds in holding a referendum when the result of it would be meaningless? There wasn’t going to be a new constitution, regardless of the outcome of any referendum.

Of course liars like you – and yes, you’ve proved conclusively on Twitter that you are a liar – like to pretend that the later Lisbon Treaty was somehow exactly the same thing as a new constitution. Maybe the difference between a treaty and a constitution is too subtle for you, and no doubt you would vote no in any EU referendum regardless of the question being asked.

If you really want to know what's going on in the world (I’m sure you don’t and would rather wallow in your ignorance), try reading ‘The Shock Doctrine’ by Naomi Klein, a review of which can be found here:-

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t601-the-shock-doctrine-by-naomi-klein

I don't like the EU...I never have and never will. The short term results, especially for the fledgling nations of Eastern Europe, will reap positive results, but long term, no, where the biggest and most powerful members, like Germany, France, and part time member GB, will always have the last and final word regarding economic and political issues....I will not even get into the problem of inflation which is strangling Europe today. What really irks me though is the decimation of European culture and national identification that makes Europe so unique on this planet. I just happen to love borders....When I reach a border crossing that leads into another nation I get excited, and even though it might be very comparable in many respects, it's still another country....I don't get that exhilarating feeling anymore.

The whole system (EU) is corrupt, systems are set up and enforced for the benefit of global companies and sod the common man/woman.

Just returned from Spain (great people). The man in the street is totally confounded by the crisis's that are hitting them daily. Nobody voted for this shambles of an unelected bureaucracy that is quietly going about totalitarian control.


EU ruling 'paved the way' for horse meat crisis
A European Union directive has been blamed for paving the way for the meat horse crisis after it changed the rules governing the inspection of meat cutting plants.
EU ruling 'paved the way' for horse meat crisis
The scrapping of daily inspections was part of a European-wide move to put the onus for food safety on producers rather than government agencies

By Patrick Sawer


The directive, issued by EU officials in 2006, scrapped daily inspections at plants where slaughtered animals are butchered into parts before being processed into ready meals.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/9875216/EU-ruling-paved-the-way-for-horse-meat-crisis.html

tlttf wrote:The whole system (EU) is corrupt, systems are set up and enforced for the benefit of global companies and sod the common man/woman.

Just returned from Spain (great people). The man in the street is totally confounded by the crisis's that are hitting them daily. Nobody voted for this shambles of an unelected bureaucracy that is quietly going about totalitarian control.....

The Spanish hombre de la calle was delighted when the EU (read Germany) paid for a network of Motorways and infrastructure, and enabled Spanish goods to be sold freely throughout Europe whilst allowing unemployed Spaniards to seek work without having to apply for Permits.

The story is of course different now the music has stopped leaving insufficient chairs, though much unsold property - but at least they don't blame Gordon Brown for their predicament.

at least they don't blame Gordon Brown for their predicament.
Not yet, Herr Cameron hasn't visited Spain yet.

LOL. This was Tosh (whatever happened to him?), listing Cameron’s successes:-

Bond yields-low interest rates--AAA credit rating

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t648-west-coast-mainline-fiasco

We've still got the low interest rates (at the same level as when Alistair Darling was Chancellor), at least until the pound falls in value and inflation increases because of the higher cost of imports. Oh, but I see the pound is falling today....

The Treasury/Bank of England/ONS method of calculating "Inflation" seems to change as often as Gideon Osborne's excuses for failure, though oddly that isn't a word he ever uses.

Ivan Said: We've still got the low interest rates (at the same level as when Alistair Darling was Chancellor), at least until the pound falls in value and inflation increases because of the higher cost of imports. Oh, but I see the pound is falling today....

Is this the same 0.5 interest rate Osbourne inherited from the previous Government. Regarding the fall in the £, its been dropping consistantly for quite some time, and is only a matter of time before we have a Parity Pound with the Euro.

And, would that be a bad thing Bobby ?

What I mean by that is that once the Pound is standing at the same exchange rate as the Euro there will be no longer any reasons not to scrap the Pound any more.

As a Europhile I see a, ( repaired ), greater Europe becoming a solid partner for Britain against the rest of the world and once we get right in at the heart of this powerful and ever-growing entity we will at long last become true full-time Europeans rather than part-time ones.

Britain's Empire is long gone and the quicker we realise this the better so that we can then forge strong ties with our nearest neighbours.

Regards....

Papaumau.

You'll never convert me Papa, as I have allways been very pro Europe, being half Italian and half English, I was born a true European, unlike many Brits who only came to realise they are European after joining the Common Market.
I would prefer us to have the same currency as the rest of Europe. We are constantly bombarded with reasons why we shouldn't join the Euro and those reasons are to do with control. Well we are not in the Eurozone yet the pound is under constant bombardment from the Eurozone, so where exactly is the benefit of going it alone and constantly having to deal with a currency we have no say in. It all seems bloody daft to me, but hey I'm just a Johny Foreigner.
That said Papa, I really can't see the EU working properly untill we have a European Government and not twenty odd factions who's only interest are whats in it for themselves.

It doesn't look like I am going to even need to try to convert you Bobby, as it is usually a waste of time trying to preach to the already-converted.

I think I am a bit like you too as, as a Scot, I feel closer to Europe than I do to England. In fact, I have always said that I am a Scot first, a Brit' second and a European third, and I feel comfortable in that position.

Of course greater Europe and the Eurozone needs a lot of work to be done to fix what is wrong with it and I have always thought that by using the American model that job would be much easier if Europe was a truly federated single state.

I am sure that the European visonaries that do not have the xenophobia that drives many, would, like me, love to eventually see a United States of Europe where Britain could be one of the senior states that helps to drive forward that massive entity in the future.

Regards....

Papaumau.

British Eurosceptics continue to point out that the Eurozone remains 27 separate governments apparently intending to stay 27 separate entities within a Tariff zone.

Lets be honest, the only way the EU can ever work is if every country involved had one government, all countries had one work directive, same taxation, same work hours and pension rights and the same wage. (I think Germany tried this in in1938). I'm English first, British 2nd and there is no 3rd. I go abroad quite often and love the diversity. Knowing this and being English, the things that we we find problematic (weather etc) are not really a consideration when you work in a warm climate. Who needs the extra bureaucracy that comes with trying (and failing) to hold different cultures together.

"Who needs the extra bureaucracy that comes with trying (and failing) to hold different cultures together."

Boris thinks he's solved multi-culturalism. At least within his own Principality.

The trouble is if we leave the EU....

The EU is the only thing left looking after ordinary people's rights in this country. Leave and we'll see people working in sweatshops for food stamps.

Our elected governments since '79 don't give a shit for the general public - they cling vehemently to a neo-liberal agenda that benefits few and is gradually reducing the quality of life for the majority.

If only that were true Sickchip...You only have to look at working and living standards in certain eastern EU countries to realise that those governments just ignore those EU laws and directives and Brussells doesn't give a monkeys as long as they can control the big boys ( UK, Germany, France etc )

witchfinder wrote:

Common sense dictates that a united Europe makes sense, what is the point of 27 nations all bordering each other indulging in self interest instead of mutual interest, there is no logic in 27 different currencies when there could be just one, the word "united" is a positive word, whereas the word "border" means division, a negative concept.

[quote]

this is the lie that caused the problem. the simple, yet irrefutable FACT, is that there is NOTHING good that can be said about the european union. the basic concept of such an entity is evil on its face. EVERYTHING in the above paragraph is a lie, and a stupid one at that.
"europe" is nothing more than a geographical designation. there is no such entity as europe. the continent of europe is comprised of the 27 TOTALLY separate and distinct nations. there is NO legitimate reason for a single currency, or no borders.
the absolute reality is that the european common market solved EVERY trade issue. the imbecilic idea of the eu controlling trade is pathetic.
each and every nation has the right to determine who and how they are going to allow to enter their country. NO single entity has any right whatsoever trying to dictate immigration policy to any country. obviously, to those with an iq above forty, and the ability to use it, the simple reality is that NO entity not of a country, has a right dictating ANYTHING to that country.
the european union has no right to exist, and the sooner it is destroyed, the better for every real human being

oftenwrong wrote:"Who needs the extra bureaucracy that comes with trying (and failing) to hold different cultures together."

Boris thinks he's solved multi-culturalism. At least within his own Principality.

the ONLY solution to the problem of multi-culturalism is to destroy it, to its roots. it has no place in a civilized society

oftenwrong wrote:".... nothing stays the same."

and thank God for that, otherwise we would still be driving horse-drawn vehicles, using typewriters to communicate, and going to bed by candlelight.

and that is a bad idea why?

OK Folks! Let's hear it for candles, oil-lamps, coal-fires, the horse-drawn omnibus and Bath-chairs!

All those in favour of replying within 90 days say "Aye".

tlttf wrote:The whole system (EU) is corrupt, systems are set up and enforced for the benefit of global companies and sod the common man/woman.
l

[quote]



that has always been, and always will be the goal of the european union

tlttf wrote:Lets be honest, the only way the EU can ever work is if every country involved had one government, all countries had one work directive, same taxation, same work hours and pension rights and the same wage. (I think Germany tried this in in1938). I'm English first, British 2nd and there is no 3rd. I go abroad quite often and love the diversity. Knowing this and being English, the things that we we find problematic (weather etc) are not really a consideration when you work in a warm climate. Who needs the extra bureaucracy that comes with trying (and failing) to hold different cultures together.

the correct answer is NO ONE. the notion of multicultrualism is inherently evil, and even the idiotic idea that having a dozen cultures in one country is despicable on its face

oftenwrong wrote:OK Folks! Let's hear it for candles, oil-lamps, coal-fires, the horse-drawn omnibus and Bath-chairs!

All those in favour of replying within 90 days say "Aye".

what the hell do bath chairs have to do with anything?

Why not just come out and say what you mean Jumbo?
Stop beating about the bush

boatlady wrote:Why not just come out and say what you mean Jumbo?
Stop beating about the bush

oh, i always say what i mean, and mean what i say. beating around the bush is not in my repertoire. of course, perhaps i could make it a little clearer, but of course, i think i like it here

the notion of multicultrualism is inherently evil, and even the idiotic idea that having a dozen cultures in one country is despicable on its face

America was founded on the principle of multi-culturism you big balloon, or are you an ancestor of Geronimo ?

More likely to be Nick Griffin.

Maybe some of the lunatics think they've taken over the asylum