Is Jesus forgiving sin unjust to the victim?

by Greatest I am Thu May 10, 2012 4:17 pm

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related

Regards
DL

by Guest Thu May 10, 2012 5:51 pm

Is Jesus forgiving sin unjust to the victim?

No.

by Greatest I am Thu May 10, 2012 7:50 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:

Is Jesus forgiving sin unjust to the victim?

No.

Chastisement without correction is just cruelty.
Thanks for showing your stripes.

Refute or get lost.

Regards
DL

by Guest Thu May 10, 2012 8:18 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:

Is Jesus forgiving sin unjust to the victim?
No.

Greatest I am wrote:
Chastisement without correction is just cruelty.

I agree.

Greatest I am wrote:
Thanks for showing your stripes.

I have no “stripes.”

Greatest I am wrote:
Refute or get lost.

Regards
DL

No.

I remain your servant in the LORD God YHVH Elohim and his beloved son Y’shua bar Yosef, called Y’shua Moshiach, as I await your disciplined participation in joint study of the first seven words of Torah, “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets”, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth”, Genesis 1:1.

RockOnBrother

by trevorw2539 Thu May 10, 2012 9:44 pm

qreatest quote. Is Jesus forgiving sin unjust to the victim?
by Greatest I am Today at 4:17 pm

.Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

We need to put this into context.
The above can apply only in the context of Christianity surely. If one does not accept that Jesus was who he declared himself to be, then the above has no meaning.
In the context of true Christianity Jesus forgives the sin of those who are truly repentant. To show that repentance the sinner is told by Jesus 'if any man hath aught against thee ... go and be reconciled to your brother'. And vice versa ' And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.'

Apart from the Spiritual side of Christianity normal human moral codes and justice apply. And Christians are not exempt. They are subject to spiritual laws and human laws.

by **astradt1** Thu May 10, 2012 10:03 pm

Should TRUE christians advocate for the Death Penalty?

After all they must believe that christ will forgive those that have sinned......

by trevorw2539 Thu May 10, 2012 10:27 pm

astradt1 wrote:Should TRUE christians advocate for the Death Penalty?

After all they must believe that christ will forgive those that have sinned......

In the context of true Christianity Jesus forgives the sin of those who are truly repentant. You are undoubtedly aware of the 2 thieves on the crosses?
The crux of the matter is real repentance. If someone hurt you would you be happy with an offhand, careless - 'sorry'.
I can't speak for all Christians on the Death Penalty. It's not for me.

by oftenwrong Thu May 10, 2012 11:04 pm

How much sound can a hand produce without another hand against which to clap?

by Guest Fri May 11, 2012 2:39 am

trevorw2539 wrote:
We need to put this into context.

Trevor,

More context.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all…

1 Timothy 2:3-6

The phrases “who will have all men to be saved” and “who gave himself a ransom for all” speak for themselves.

trevorw2539 wrote:
You are undoubtedly aware of the 2 thieves on the crosses?

Two thieves hung on crosses alongside Jesus. The exchange between one thief and Jesus follows.

When they came to the place called The Skull, Calvary, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

And one of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save yourself and us!”

But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom!”

And Jesus said unto him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise.”

Luke 23:33, 39-43

The repentant criminal knew that his deeds were wrong. The repentant criminal did not ask to be removed from the cross.

Jesus did not remove the repentant criminal from the cross. Jesus did not ask his Father to remove the repentant criminal from the cross.

by sickchip Fri May 11, 2012 3:43 am

Jesus did not remove the repentant criminal from the cross.

He wasn't exactly in a position to......being hung up himself! What do you think he could've done? He couldn't perform miracles....he's not a bloody magician!

by Shirina Fri May 11, 2012 4:09 am

How much sound can a hand produce without another hand against which to clap?

That depends on how much your knuckles pop when you wiggle your fingers.

by Guest Fri May 11, 2012 5:00 am

sickchip wrote:
Jesus did not remove the repentant criminal from the cross.

He wasn't exactly in a position to......being hung up himself!

Yes he was.

sickchip wrote:
What do you think he could've done?

Jesus could have asked his Father to remove the repentant criminal from the cross.

sickchip wrote:
He couldn't perform miracles…

Yes he could.

by trevorw2539 Fri May 11, 2012 9:05 am

RoC quote. More context.

Thanks. I tend to make my own comments on here as short as possible. If people are genuinely interested then I expand. Most people post on religious matters for a reaction, and often nothing more. study

by Greatest I am Sat May 12, 2012 2:01 am

trevorw2539 wrote:qreatest quote. Is Jesus forgiving sin unjust to the victim?
by Greatest I am Today at 4:17 pm

.Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

We need to put this into context.
The above can apply only in the context of Christianity surely. If one does not accept that Jesus was who he declared himself to be, then the above has no meaning.

No argument.

In the context of true Christianity Jesus forgives the sin of those who are truly repentant. To show that repentance the sinner is told by Jesus 'if any man hath aught against thee ... go and be reconciled to your brother'. And vice versa ' And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.'

Apart from the Spiritual side of Christianity normal human moral codes and justice apply. And Christians are not exempt. They are subject to spiritual laws and human laws.

Repentance is not the issue. Forgiveness is.

Forgiveness is beneficial to the one forgiving and if Jesus usurps it, he does the victim a second injustice.

I have forgiven all past infraction and do not particularly care if those in question repented or not.
The debt is paid and if Jesus extracts another payment, then the perpetrator must pay twice and that is unjust.

Forgiveness is good for us whatever the perpetrator does. Closure is the point and that very closure is what Jesus denies those sinned against. It is to them to forgive, not some third party, especially one that cannot be hurt in any way.

I am much closer to the Jewish way of handling sin, man to man, in my thinking.

It looks to me like a better and more moral system.

R O B.
If you ar wanting to be other that a nuisance, you might speak to this Jewish theme instead of not contributing anything.

Or is that your best above?

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Sat May 12, 2012 2:08 am

Shirina wrote:
How much sound can a hand produce without another hand against which to clap?
That depends on how much your knuckles pop when you wiggle your fingers.

Or how big a blowhard he is when whistling or how fast he can spin on his head. Whish whish.

Regards
DL

by trevorw2539 Sat May 12, 2012 7:24 am

Greatest quote
Repentance is not the issue. Forgiveness is.

That's the problem with the world. With out recognising the hurt we cause people and 'repenting' of it we become hardened in our attitude to the extent we no longer care about others.
Forgiveness is important. It shows our acceptance that we are all human, and make mistakes. It can help to heal breaches.

It is to them to forgive, not some third party, especially one that cannot be hurt in any way.
That's what Jesus said. (See previous post) Personal forgiveness either way.

I am much closer to the Jewish way of handling sin, man to man, in my thinking.
Is that not what Christ says?

by Greatest I am Sat May 12, 2012 12:13 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote
Repentance is not the issue. Forgiveness is.

That's the problem with the world. With out recognising the hurt we cause people and 'repenting' of it we become hardened in our attitude to the extent we no longer care about others.
Forgiveness is important. It shows our acceptance that we are all human, and make mistakes. It can help to heal breaches.

It is to them to forgive, not some third party, especially one that cannot be hurt in any way.
That's what Jesus said. (See previous post) Personal forgiveness either way.

I am much closer to the Jewish way of handling sin, man to man, in my thinking.
Is that not what Christ says?

Not really. He added thought sins like coveting.

In my view, there is no victim in a thought sin, but if thought sins and coveting are truly sins, then Jesus himself is guilty.

Jesus himself coveted his own mother for reproduction. Will he also be in hell for acting on his perverted desires?

Regards
DL

by trevorw2539 Sat May 12, 2012 12:51 pm

Greatest quote.
Jesus himself coveted his own mother for reproduction?

by trevorw2539 Sat May 12, 2012 1:19 pm

Greatest quote.
In my view, there is no victim in a thought sin, but if thought sins and coveting are truly sins, then Jesus himself is guilty.

But the Christian view would be that the victim is also the thinker. In thinking 'adultery' no woman is a victim, but the one who 'thinks' does harm to himself by ignoring God's command. Thus the need for forgiveness from God, not man/woman.
That may not be my view, and certainly a humanist would say it was just human nature.
We need to differentiate between humanity and spirituality.

by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 5:07 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Repentance is not the issue. Forgiveness is.

One cannot speak in truth of YHVH Elohim’s forgiveness without speaking of repentance.

Greatest I am wrote:
Forgiveness is beneficial to the one forgiving…

If the one forgiving is the one wronged, forgiveness is beneficial to the one forgiving.

In the books of history is an account of David, during his last hours (perhaps), instructing his son to exact vengeance upon a man that, years earlier, had wronged David. It’s a chilling account, one which touched my heart, as there are those that I yet struggle to forgive decades after their heinous deeds.

Greatest I am wrote:
… and if Jesus usurps it, he does the victim a second injustice.

Jesus speaks.

And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, “All authority has been given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Matthew 28:18

Jesus usurps nothing.

Greatest I am wrote:
The debt is paid and if Jesus extracts another payment, then the perpetrator must pay twice and that is unjust.

No. All authority in heaven and in earth has been given unto Jesus. If ever you discipline yourself to study Genesis 1:1 (I’ll do it with you), you’ll discover the extent of Jesus’ authority.

Greatest I am wrote:
… that very closure is what Jesus denies those sinned against.

No. This statement emanates from an erroneous premise, the nature of which I’ stand ready to discuss with you as we together study Genesis 1:1 and certain portions of Genesis 1 and 2 that follow.

Greatest I am wrote:
R O B.
If you ar wanting to be other that a nuisance, you might speak to this Jewish theme instead of not contributing anything.

Or is that your best above?

Perhaps hubris clouds your vision; perhaps not.

by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 5:42 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
Forgiveness is important. It shows our acceptance that we are all human, and make mistakes. It can help to heal breaches.

This I struggle with. Decades after their heinous deeds, two unrepentant evildoers still control my thoughts and emotions from time to time. I do not wish to replicate David’s last hours as he instructed Solomon to remember the person that wronged David. That’s not the way to go.

trevorw2539 wrote:
It is to them to forgive, not some third party, especially one that cannot be hurt in any way.
That's what Jesus said. (See previous post) Personal forgiveness either way.

I am much closer to the Jewish way of handling sin, man to man, in my thinking.
Is that not what Christ says?

Trevor, the confusion here involves the word we translate as “sin.” David wrote something like, “I have sinned against only you, God”, expressing no only his remorse but also his understanding that one sins against one’s Creator, not one’s fellow created being.

The unrepentant evildoers whose heinous deeds I struggle to forgive have not sinned against me, for I am not their Creator. Those persons have aggrieved me, hurt me, stolen from me that which they cannot replace, and it is these trespasses against me that for my own well being I need to forgive.

Insofar as absolute forgiveness for their trespasses against everyone these evildoers have wronged is concerned, that’s unattainable. One cannot receive forgiveness from a person one has murdered. That, by the way, is the “Jewish way”, as taught to me by several Jewish Torah scholars.

Ironically, the “Jewish way” is Jesus’ way, a fact not discerned by Christians who choose not to study all that Jesus taught.

Jesus did not remove the repentant criminal from the cross; Jesus did not ask his Father to remove the repentant criminal from the cross. Nothing is mentioned in the gospels as to the exact crimes committed by the two criminals, but it’s likely that they were highwaymen such as whoever laid into the victim in the Good Samaritan parable. In other words, they were possibly armed robbers and murderers.

The repentant criminal understood this as evidenced by his chastisement of the unrepentant criminal. He knew that they were guilty; he knew that they deserved punishment.

by Greatest I am Sat May 12, 2012 6:10 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote.
In my view, there is no victim in a thought sin, but if thought sins and coveting are truly sins, then Jesus himself is guilty.

But the Christian view would be that the victim is also the thinker. In thinking 'adultery' no woman is a victim, but the one who 'thinks' does harm to himself by ignoring God's command. Thus the need for forgiveness from God, not man/woman.
That may not be my view, and certainly a humanist would say it was just human nature.
We need to differentiate between humanity and spirituality.

Ok. From a spiritual POV.

Only those with really swollen heads and inflated egos will think they can hurt God in any way.

God's will is supreme and he would not will harm or hurt to himself. He is not that stupid.

Stupid yes, but not that stupid.

From a human POV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5YrB7TpT1Y&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 10:25 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Only those with really swollen heads and inflated egos will think they can hurt God in any way.

Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give diabolos an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer, but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.

Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Ephesians 4:25-32

by astra Sat May 12, 2012 10:59 pm

I am phrasing this in the past sence, as if I were to phrase it in the present, then members who rate themselves as the Politically Correct Polizie will jump in and destroy the thread!

I am thinking along the lines of - cause and effect, to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction

Let's say RoB is a Christian, Let's say I am a Roman or a Saxon, or a Druid, or a Viking - all of which were cast aside here in England, by Christianity.

RoB hurts me or mine, am I to then let him away with that BECAUSE he is a Christian? Thor and ALL the rest of the Gods which I will be praying to have more credence in my mind than RoB's does.

So, do I forgive Rob and let that be an end to it (untill the next time)
OR
Do I "get even" then 'wholeheartedly' (sincerely folks) repent while sharpening my sword blade?

I cannot see any answers to this, as we are human - admittedly some more human than others.

IMO the taking of money and the evasion of paying taxes gets more in the way of state punishment than does the taking of life. The way of changing the ownership of property, to some unknown individual without the owners permission is now "The way of the world, Sir" That from a Polis who attended a robbery on my premises.

Italy is supposedly one of the most Godly Christian Countries on the planet, but for your continued health's sakes, do not get caught up in a blood feud there! Or is repairing a leaking church or other monastic roof with some scriptural persuasion worthy of Parish/County/Country forgiveness?

by Guest Sun May 13, 2012 3:09 am

astra wrote:
Let's say RoB is a Christian…

RoB hurts me or mine, am I to then let him away with that BECAUSE he is a Christian?

No. Short answer.

A bit more detail: You are not to let me get away with it because I (sometimes) am a Christian; you are not to let me get away with it because I am not a Christian; you are not to let me get away with it because I am any faith; you are not to let me get away with it at all for any reason.

A woman in Texas was convicted of capital murder. She and an accomplice, welding axes for the purpose, hacked a man to death for monetary gain. I believe, though memory fades, that it had to do with insurance money or an inheritance.

As is usually the case, she maintained her innocence even while on death row. Then she repented and gave her life to her Creator, YHVH Elohim, through his Son Y’shua Meshach, Jesus the Christ.

Upon deciding to follow Jesus’ teachings, she immediately and publicly confessed her guilt as an axe murderer, providing details of the murder previously unknown to investigators and prosecutors. She instructed her team of lawyers to cease all appeals, saying that she was guilty and deserved punishment for her crimes. Sounds kin of like the repentant criminal who hung on the cross alongside Jesus.

As her execution day (made closer by years by her refusal to further appeal) drew nearer, she was asked during an interview I she was afraid. She confirmed her fear while affirming that the fear she instilled in her victim was far greater and noting that her death would be far more humane than the hacking by axe death that she inflicted on an innocent person. She said finally that Jesus’ teachings compelled her to take full responsibility for her actions (“no excuses, big brother”) and accept the just consequences thereof.

That’s Christianity.

Astra, if I do wrong to you, Jesus teaches me to take full responsibility for the act and the consequences thereof. If, for instance, I scammed you out of a million dollars, or the pound sterling equivalent, I should (1) confess, (2) do my time (no need for a trial after elocution), and (3) forward my paycheck to you until I pay you back with interest or for the rest of my life, whichever comes sooner. And if death comes sooner, my entire estate is yours.

That’s Christianity.

astra wrote:
So, do I forgive Rob and let that be an end to it (until the next time)
OR
Do I "get even" then 'wholeheartedly' (sincerely folks) repent while sharpening my sword blade?

YHVH Elohim forgives a repentant sinner but does not absolve the repentant sinner of responsibility for his/her wrongful actions.

As for vengeance, “Vengeance is mine, says the LORD”; most people ignore the rest of our Father’s affirmation, “I will repay.”

Here it is all together: “Vengeance is mine, says the LORD; I will repay.” If an unrepentant wrongdoer chooses to remain unrepentant, that’s between the unrepentant wrongdoer and her/his Creator. Meanwhile, she/he must face the consequences of her/his actions on earth before earthly authorities.

When earthly authority submits itself to the sovereignty of YHVH Elohim, here’s what it looks like:

Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resists authority resists the ordinance of God, and they that resist shall receive condemnation upon themselves.

For rulers are not a cause of terror for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same, for he is the minister of God to you for good.

But if you do that which is evil, be afraid; for he bears not the sword in vain, for he is the minister of God, a revenger (avenger) to execute wrath upon the one that does evil.

Romans 13:1-4

by trevorw2539 Sun May 13, 2012 10:25 am

Forgiveness does not exclude the execution of the Law. A man/woman may forgive the transgressor, the law demands its due for societys sake.

Why do we not understand that when we are talking about God we are
talking about something/one beyond our comprehension. We can only use words which are available to us, and our limited human understanding.

If we read the Bible we see that it tells us that God can be 'hurt'. Not 'physically' but 'angered' etc at man's attitudes.
The Gods of older myths have the same 'problems'. It is the only way we can describe things.

Greatest. As a Gnostic I presume you do not accept the Abrahamic God as the 'ultimate' Being/creator. I have never found it easy to discuss with Gnostics. Different groups seem to have different 'ideas/beliefs/revelations'. Perhaps like the different denominations in Christianity, though they have one basic doctrine, somewhat distorted in many cases.

I have studied the OT and the background against which the events occurred. I know the myths, stories and the facts/events that can be proved. I try to read it as it was written. By men of limited knowledge compared with ours today. Written for a different people, with a different cultural background. I have the advantage of being able to look back in hindsight at the bigger picture. They didn't. I have the understanding of modern science. They didn't.
There are things written on the OT which were hidden from their understanding by the lack of knowledge, but open to us 3000+ in the future.

Many miracles in Egypt were known phenomena. Crossing the Red/Reed sea? Possible, given certain conditions.

RoC. Sin. I accept much of what you say. Just that's its a long subject so I used the word as a general.

. Time gone. Have to meet someone.

by astra Sun May 13, 2012 12:58 pm

I hear what you say RoC

BUT

The Bible talks in it's own timeframe, and can only be loosly attached to our present day

The same fellow stole 3 vehicles from me - he stole from others as well so I was not the only "sufferer". Indeed he was such a good little scrote, pleaded repentance, got out of jail in weeks instead of months and started his shinanegans all over again. At the court case for the third vehicle, he admitted to 64, YES 64 OTHER vehicles he stole to be taken into account! We unfortunately for us, never saw this idiot again as he was shifted at our expence to another town for his own safety. I apparently was not the only guy wandering round the town with gelding irons in my pocket!

I never got any money from him! From the court or legal system!

AND
I had to pay off the hire purchase for another 18 months. The insurance took that long to sort things out and paid the money to the HP company instead of to me - so the hire purchase company got paid twice!
It took 5 years to get my insurance premium back to something like normal and take into account that the insurance premiums paid by Ivan, OW and Trevor also were raised by this sunami of car theft and resulting claims. I have had no recompence and 30 years later still feel agrieved. The Gelding Irons are still to hand, blunt and rusty now but no less efficacious for that!

All very well describing the bibles words which was written at a time when it was normal to walk down the street with a sword in one hand, a shield in the other, and a dagger in your trouser belt, these days if we (in UK) carry a pen knife it can land you in court

He never appologised to his victims - does not need to, as by his values, "They got paid off by the insurance"
He has not repented, that I know of, so makes any repentance he has given to a Judge absolutely worthless
He presumably continues his life unchallenged

Why are a convicted criminal's "values" more important to law, than ours who have done no harm (YET! Twisted Evil

)

by trevorw2539 Sun May 13, 2012 4:14 pm

Astra quote
The Bible talks in it's own timeframe, and can only be loosly attached to our present day.

Well done Astra [color=black]As I have been saying for years.

Sorry to quote my own post.
[color=indigo] I try to read it as it was written. By men of limited knowledge compared with ours today. Written for a different people, with a different cultural background with truths applicable to them at the time. I have the advantage of being able to look back in hindsight at the bigger picture. They didn't. I have the understanding of modern science. They didn't. Time and humanity move on. color]

Many of the 'things' in the Bible hold good for all time 'Love thy neighbour' etc (unless he nicks your car) and the things that make society run smoothly, either from the Bible or taken from earlier civilisations. That includes forgiveness and punishment. Strange how 2 opposing concepts come together. I may forgive, but being under the Law I am subject to it, and must allow punishment for the offender to take place.

Astra. Daggers were only worn in waist bands when in sheaths. Accidental 'operations' can occur otherwise. Wink

by astra Sun May 13, 2012 4:50 pm

Accidental 'operations' can occur otherwise

Heh!!

Have a look at the Sgian Dubh, if THAT bit you it's a limp for weeks :affraid:

It is said that after the Battle of Stirling Bridge, Sir William Wallace had the Baldrick for his broadsword made from the flayed skin of Sir William de Cressyinhame, Edward the First's tax collector in Scotland. An occupation that he pursued with cruel zeal!

As you imply Trevor, our own tools are not supposed to hurt ourselves. (can someone relay that to my claw hammer please?)

by trevorw2539 Sun May 13, 2012 5:07 pm

Astra.quote. Have a look at the Sgian Dubh, if THAT bit you it's a limp for weeks

Ouch. Must remember to wear a cricket 'box' if I visit north of the border again. Smile

by Guest Mon May 14, 2012 4:01 am

astra wrote:
I hear what you say RoC

BUT

The Bible talks in it's own timeframe, and can only be loosly attached to our present day

Let’s see.

“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court, and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”

“Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’, and your ‘No’ be ‘No’; anything beyond these is of evil.”

Matthew 5:21-24, 27-28, 33-37

Which of these is not applicable today?

astra wrote:
… At the court case for the third vehicle, he admitted to 64, YES 64 OTHER vehicles he stole to be taken into account! We unfortunately for us, never saw this idiot again as he was shifted at our expence to another town for his own safety. I apparently was not the only guy wandering round the town with gelding irons in my pocket!

I never got any money from him! From the court or legal system!

Unfortunately (based on your testimony), in the UK as well as the US, concern for perpetrators’ rights overrides concern for victims’ rights.

I happen to believe that OJ Simpson didn’t do it, but that he had something to do with it. No “hidden evidence”, just a gut feeling. For this reason, I’m glad he got off on the criminal charge but was found at fault in the subsequent civil trial.

A civil court judgment was entered against him to the tune of pretty much all his money and assets, so everything he owns belongs to Poppa Goldman. If OJ sells a toothpick, the profit is Goldman’s. That’s how it should be.

This is God’s way as taught by Jesus. If you have wronged your brother, leave your offering at the alter and go make it right with your brother. “The second [commandment] is like unto it; you shall love your neighbor as yourself.” If myself has been “nicked” (hope I’m using it right) to the tune of three vehicles, loving myself entails compell9ng the thief to replace my old clunkers with three spanking new cars.

People forget that the second great commandment applies not just to me, but everyone, including criminals. That fellow needs to get a job and get to buying sixty-four new vehicles for his neighbors. What make and model do you want for your three?

astra wrote:
Why are a convicted criminal's "values" more important to law, than ours who have done no harm (YET! )

They are not. But do him no harm, my Celtic brother, because your heart is too valuable to allow a sorry excuse for a man to turn it sour. You’ve got something he can never steal. It’s called “character.”

by oftenwrong Mon May 14, 2012 9:45 am

This argument is similar to the one that runs, "Don't expect gratitude from those you have tried to help."

by trevorw2539 Mon May 14, 2012 10:47 am

RoC quotes.

In the books of history is an account of David, during his last hours (perhaps), instructing his son to exact vengeance upon a man that, years earlier, had wronged David. It’s a chilling account, one which touched my heart, as there are those that I yet struggle to forgive decades after their heinous deeds.

I do not wish to replicate David’s last hours as he instructed Solomon to remember the person that wronged David. That’s not the way to go.

This was the way of the times. A person who took over the throne by force of killed the rest of the old kings family to prevent any opposition from them in the future. Not a nice thing, but certainly effective.

Back to David. Perhaps he was wiser than you or I.

Joab, one of David's nephews had often gone against David's wishes more than once. David was hampered from punishing him by the fact that Joab and his brothers were powerful , seasoned fighters and respected for that by their men. Although they were David's commanders he could not always trust them.
At the end of David's life, Adonijah, one of David's sons sought to usurp his father's authority and proclaimed himself King. He was supported by Abiathar the priest, and JOAB
When David heard of it he sat Solomon on the throne and proclaimed him king. The others fled.
Joab's treachery. Again.

When Solomon started his reign he allowed Adonijah back. By devious means, which you can read in 1 Kings 2, Adonijah tried to have Abishag for his wife. Abishag had, if you remember, shared David's bed to keep him warm when he was very old and cold. 'We read David did not know her'.
The very fact of asking for the old Kings 'concubine' was tantamount to challenging for the throne. (verse 22). Adonijah was supported by Abiathar and JOAB.
Joab's treachery. Again.

Adonijah and Joab were both threats to Solomon, and died for their treachery. Abiathar, being a High Priest, was not killed, but was banished and his office taken from him.

Today we would put them in prison. But then today is not 3000 years ago.

Apologies to all those who find this tedious. Couldn't make the point shorter I'm afraid.

by Guest Tue May 15, 2012 6:49 am

Trevor,

“Forgiveness is good for the soul.” I’ve forgotten when and where I first heard this, but it’s as wise a saying as any I’ve heard.

David, within the context in which he functioned, indeed had reason to be wary of Joab (and angry at Shimei). That being said, this…

As David’s time to die drew near, he charged Solomon his son, saying, “I am going the way of all the earth.”

“… do not let [Joab’s] gray hair go down to Sheol in peace.”

“… do not let [Shimei] go unpunished… and you will bring his gray hair down to Sheol with blood.”

1 Kings 2:1-2, 6 , 9

… is not the way I want to go out. There are better things upon which I hope to focus my last thoughts and emotions than the several miscreants whose evil deeds have soiled my loved ones’ lives and my life. If I allow that, then I allow evildoers to control my thoughts and emotions for the rest of my life.

David is an excellent example of human heights and depths. The same man that passed up two opportunities to shed Saul’s pursuit (because of exceptional humility before his Creator) also virtually assassinated one the most loyal of David’s mighty men. I want to emulate David’s strengths while avoiding like the plague his weaknesses.

Few good people go through life without being wronged by evildoers. Forgiveness prevents evildoers from fully accomplishing their intended destruction. And for those who humble themselves before their Creator, “Vengeance is mine, says the LORD; I will repay.”

by trevorw2539 Tue May 15, 2012 9:50 am

Roc. Agree entirely. But we are living in different times. While Joab lived, Solomon was in danger.
'vengeance is mine...............'. So often quoted. God often used men to extract that vengeance.
Saul and the Amalekites?
Was David supposed to let Joab to kill Solomon so the Lord could extract vengeance?

by Guest Tue May 15, 2012 2:57 pm

Trevor,

Considering this…

… there is no authority except from God, and the powers that be are ordained of God.

… if you do that which is evil, be afraid; for he bears not the sword in vain, for he is the minister of God, a revenger (avenger) to execute wrath upon the one that does evil.

from Romans 13:1-4

… perhaps Solomon was the instrument of God’s vengeance.

by Guest Tue May 15, 2012 3:42 pm

delete

by Greatest I am Tue May 15, 2012 6:58 pm

Is hell anything like -- do unto others and love the sinner?

Some more enlightened Christians are trying to mature Christianity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

The Christian invention of hell and Christian strong desire for it to exist, shows a hatred that is quite deep within the Christian tribal soul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_rmQuagpY&feature=player_embedded

Jesus would not cast the first stone yet Christians adamantly demand that he cast the last killing stone called hell.

You will reap what you sow Christian.

This will be you unless you repent from your hating ways. You are corrupting Jesus and his good archetypal name.

I predict this following for you if you do not lose your hate for those who just happen by accident of birth to not believe as you do. Beware.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3LNL6wKhXA

Regards
DL

by oftenwrong Tue May 15, 2012 8:01 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre's Huis-clos (No Exit), contains the famous line "L'enfer, c'est les autres," usually translated as "Hell is other people."

by trevorw2539 Tue May 15, 2012 8:23 pm

RoC quote. perhaps Solomon was the instrument of God’s vengeance

Quite possibly.
My problem with the text 'vengeance is mine..........' are the times it is used to excuse a person not taking action to rebuke wrongdoing.
'Let God deal with it'. Instead of dealing with the problem oneself, or as a church group.

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