Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

by ROB Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Shirina wrote:
Humans are easily fooled.

Perhaps that’s why atheism is growing in spite of its illogicalness.

To prove that an omniscient being does not exist, one must be an omniscient being. Only God can prove God’s existence, and only God can prove God’s nonexistence; thus, if God’s nonexistence is ever proven, God will have proven God’s own nonexistence.

by tlttf Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:54 am

Universe Older Than Previously Thought

March 21, 2013: Europe's Planck spacecraft has obtained the most accurate and detailed map ever made of the oldest light in the universe. The map results suggest the universe is expanding more slowly than scientists thought, and is 13.8 billion years old, 100 million years older than previous estimates. The data also show there is less dark energy and more matter in the universe than previously known.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2013/21mar_cmb/

by egginbonce Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:09 am

irrationality is the default human condition,Im sure, despite for some reason,being seen as a slight on someones character.
Whatever you might feel about 'how things are/were(!), perhaps irrationality is a product of 600 million years of evolution, and may have a purpose,whereas the 'scientific method, has a 150 year history,and has yet itself to be put to 600 million years of testing...............
Perhaps its insecurity caused by not being able to weigh and measure everything that drives our unwillingness to see past rationality,(and thus to swim in a warmer sea)?

by boatlady Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:12 am

March 21, 2013: Europe's Planck spacecraft has obtained the most accurate and detailed map ever made of the oldest light in the universe. The map results suggest the universe is expanding more slowly than scientists thought, and is 13.8 billion years old, 100 million years older than previous estimates. The data also show there is less dark energy and more matter in the universe than previously known.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2013/21mar_cmb/.
tlttf

Making some 'knowledge' obsolete, and thus proving my point. Cool

by egginbonce Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:18 am

600 million years is the date given to the well famed ediacaran fauna,which is though to have preceeded the organisms found in the Burgess shale by 150 million years.
If of course, what is meant by 'evolution', is the development of the environment also(the environment being indistinguishable from the organism itself, for obvious reasons, then evolution as a process becomes applicable to inorganic events as well as organic events. This being so, it is, as I say, such an obvious process ansd so inevitable, that it is no mor e worth stating and detailing than to say that the sky is blue.The details need some mental agility to get to grips with, but the underlying principle is hardly worth a mention,other than to say that its as you would expect it to be.................Time to move past that stuff, I should think...............

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:11 am

irrationality is the default human condition,Im sure, despite for some reason,being seen as a slight on someones character.
Whatever you might feel about 'how things are/were(!), perhaps irrationality is a product of 600 million years of evolution, and may have a purpose,whereas the 'scientific method, has a 150 year history,and has yet itself to be put to 600 million years of testing...............
Perhaps its insecurity caused by not being able to weigh and measure everything that drives our unwillingness to see past rationality,(and thus to swim in a warmer sea)?

Irrationality is a product of cognitive bias and most psychological adaptive traits have an evolutionary origin. We are predisposed to believe in unseen agents with intentions going back to a rustle in the grass to a shadow in the trees, there is a distinct survival advantage to being suspicious, suspicion is just a stone throw away from superstition.

Once we evolved a theory of mind we became conscious of the thoughts and intentions of others, our mind and their minds were in effect unseen agents( spirits), empathy and the ability to second guess intentions is a handy survival tool in evermore complex social structures.

We simply took the model of unseen agents with intentions and applied it to all natural phenomena, the birth of animism, everything had a spirit and everything was intended, things happened for a reason, the origins of our cause and affect thinking process. In our ignorance we explained everything as being caused by an unseen agent and created our myths around their intentions, the reason why things happened.

It is no coincidence that the earliest religions are based on dream cultures, cognisance made us aware of our dreams, and our mind or spirit was able to travel outside of our body. Shamans artificially recreated this dreamy state by inhaling or digesting hallucinatory drugs, and entered the world where all the unseen agents lived, the spirit world is of course just a model of the natural world.

The final key to the puzzle comes in the form of a poison chalice, self awareness opened up the doors to both life and death awareness, our survival genetic instructions were adapted by our psyche to create immortality, unseen agents do not die they simply go to the spirit world, death denial reduces fear and anxiety and this certainly had a survival advantage in a world filled with death.

So unseen agents evolved from our own mind to the minds of others, to the forests and rivers, up to the mountains and sky, and finally outside our universe, God is the last unseen agent standing.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:15 am

Making some 'knowledge' obsolete, and thus proving my point. Cool

You have not proven any point, the knowledge the universe had a beginning is not obsolete, the process is not obsolete, none of the major conclusions are obsolete, we just refine the data,which actually proves my point.

There is no major discoveries out there that are going to make the laws of physics that govern us OBSOLETE, the fundamentals cannot all be wrong or nothing would work, and voodoo requires the fundamentals to be all wrong.

by egginbonce Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:45 am

Hi Tosh...........thanx for the long post, which i am going through, but for now, will deal wtih one point only(as im off out to move a sofa!).its the bit about self-awareness, and here, im thinking, not for the first time, that a lot of these discussions are over definitions (or semantics, if you will).....by self- awareness, no doubt, you mean the process of thinking; if you stretch the definition(or to be more accurate, your way of looking), everything has self- awareness, but not necessarily the power(wrong word;its not an advantage always....for power, use characteristic,maybe?)of thought..............so........and its a point Ive played with befoere......a rock knows better than anything else can know anything, that its a rock;its 'rockness is not in doubt, to itself, certainly, and almost as certainly, to you and I.................so even when using a supposedly self descriptive term,such as 'self-awareness', there is mileage to be got out of questioning whats meant by such a term............................
I would rarely argue a particular point with someone, simply because, in most cases, the first thing to deal with is accurate thought,and once you start defining your terms, the quest for accurate thought is usually seen to be unending,making the diuscussion of secondary issues well........secondarry, i spose..................a discussion about ,say religion, or whatever is often fun,as long as you accept that the tune will have lots of bum notes,which, for the purpose in hand, you will ignore(as long as you realise that they are , indeed, bum notes!).
regards to you and your goldfish........................ What a Face

by Guest Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:46 am

by egginbonce Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:53 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
This post addresses the topic.

Evidence is not proof. We presume evidence to be proof in criminal courts of law, but those that so presume reveal their perhaps subconscious knowledge that such evidence is seldom proof by offering as their primary argument against the death penalty a statement like this:

“The death penalty is wrong because, due to its finality, if it is discovered that the executed person is not guilty, we cannot restore that person to life.”

If evidence is in fact proof, then it would never be discovered that an executed person, proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, is not guilty, because there was proof of the executed person’s guilt.

Precise thinking demands that the thinker know the difference between evidence and guilt. Such precise thinkers, in seeking and exploring evidence of YHH Elohim, will discipline themselves to refrain from presuming that such evidence is proof.

aha...evidence can be overwhelming, but its still not proof;in fact its probably the case that there is no proof of anything at all;we live in a bit of an ever changing kaleidoscope,it could be said.....................(and how nice is that),and how boring to tie everything down to what can be weighed and measured,and spend your life in an endless quest to measur things better and better and describe whats already there in more and more detail,and all, of course without adding diddly squat to your real understanding
right.off to move this sofa, or ill get carried away with all this hippy crap I keep spouting.................... Very Happy

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:59 am

by self- awareness, no doubt, you mean the process of thinking;

Nope, self awareness means being conscious of ones own existence, consciousness in effect.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:02 pm

Science does not mention proof only evidence, I have told you this countless times but you are determined to muddy the discussion which is about evidence.

Proof is an absolute, and science deals in probabilities, stop trying to impose unscientific standards on science because you can't dispute the evidence.

Charlatan is being too polite.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:13 pm

Such precise thinkers, in seeking and exploring evidence of YHH Elohim, will discipline themselves to refrain from presuming that such evidence is proof.

Irrational thinkers presume they are precise thinkers by insisting on absolute proof for evolution knowing evidence is not proof. Theories are tested by the evidence not proven, so please stop stating evolution is not proven as if it is meaningful, no theory or law is proven in science.

As I said you re a fraud defending your faith with disingenuous semantics, its intellectually dishonest and weak.

by Shirina Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:02 pm

These vermin are more dangerous than Al Qaeda in my opinion.

I completely, totally, and wholeheartedly agree.

by Shirina Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:10 pm

Proof is an absolute

Actually, it's not. Proof is subjective. One person's proof is another person's evidence and yet another person's rubbish. The concept of proof only exists within the minds of humans ergo fallaible, error-prone humans must decide for themselves if something constitutes proof. Most people are on the same page in that regard - unless religion is involved and then proof vs. evidence vs. rubbish goes haywire. Obviously we would not attribute magic to most events in our lives, but where religion is concerned, we suspend our reality and believe in the nonsensical. We would never believe that God hid our car keys, for example, but have no trouble in believing God magically poofed Adam and Eve into existence.

It is also the reason why innocent men can be convicted of a crime based on evidence and proof. The jury members are not infallible and even in a courtroom, proof is subjective. If proof were absolute, then no one innocent would ever be convicted of a crime. In the same way, no one would believe in God and be absolutely certain God exists. We would have instead a world full of atheists and a smattering of agnostics instead of religious zealots who fly planes into buildings or try to persecute gays.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:25 pm

My main objection with Texas is one minute his arguments are pinned on the precise meaning of words and the next minute dependent on distorting concepts beyond recognition.

He is like a child doing a jigsaw with a pair of scissors, its self delusion, he genuinely believes he has sown together an intellectual argument for Yahweh, quite incredible since his position ignores logic and evidence completely.

These people are not truth seekers in any shape or form, they are contortionists who surround themselves with a thicket of straw man arguments hoping no one will notice.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:28 pm

Proof is an absolute

Sorry, proof is an absolute in closed systems like maths and formal logic, once you prove 1+1=2, then no new information will alter this proof.

Science operates in an open system where any new piece of evidence may alter the conclusion.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:36 pm

One cannot discard the theory of common ancestry without providing an alternative explanation that fits the evidence, are these people really suggesting Yahweh littered the earth with millions of species over a time span of 2 billion years ?

He then creates humans some 200,000 years ago but ignores them until he bumps into some desert dwellers in the bronze age.

Seriously, you have to be brain dead or insane to try and intellectualize this utter guff.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:40 pm

aha...evidence can be overwhelming, but its still not proof;in fact its probably the case that there is no proof of anything at all

Creationist wackos are insisting reality must consist of nothing but proof, its just sheer nonsense.

by oftenwrong Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:45 pm

Who loves you, baby?

http://www.savalas.tv/

by Shirina Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:54 pm

These people are not truth seekers in any shape or form, they are contortionists who surround themselves with a thicket of straw man arguments hoping no one will notice.

That's why I call it "pretzel logic," Tosh.

Because the logic is so twisted.

by Shirina Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:56 pm

Sorry, proof is an absolute in closed systems like maths and formal logic, once you prove 1+1=2, then no new information will alter this proof.

Proof is only "proof" until new information changes the data. Sure, I'm willing to accept 1+1=2 as a "proof" because it is HIGHLY unlikely that any new information will suddenly make 1+1=35. Again, as you said, it's all about probability.

by Shirina Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:58 pm

are these people really suggesting Yahweh littered the earth with millions of species over a time span of 2 billion years ?

No, no ... Satan did that! lol!

by egginbonce Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:41 pm

Tosh.why are your views so much more sensible that anyone elses?..........................

Nope, self awareness means being conscious of ones own existence, consciousness in effect

I think yours is rather a subjective viewpoint.(arent all viewpoints subjective, now I think about it? Embarassed

)..............and it could be disputed that being conscious of ones own existence is the same as conciousness;an amoeba will move away from a noxious stimulus,and it doesnt even have a nervous system,being unicellular, but it clearly dislikes being prodded, and so is conscious(tho u may not dispute that, tho Imsure u wold dispute tha, as i suggested earlier, that a stone knows its a stone, or to be clearer(!), it is part of the same awareness that you and I are(well, I am anyway!!! Very Happy

)

by oftenwrong Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:58 pm

How can so many people all be Special?

by egginbonce Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:08 pm

theres only one special person, ,often, --its you; in nfact, theres only one person, anyway....yes..it you again...............you have no evidence of the reality of anyone or anything outside yourself.............your senses arent exactly comprehensively helping in that respect...........

by snowyflake Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:45 pm

theres only one special person, ,often, --its you; in nfact, theres only one person, anyway....yes..it you again...............you have no evidence of the reality of anyone or anything outside yourself.............your senses arent exactly comprehensively helping in that respect...........

How many magic mushrooms did you consume in your ill spent youth eggy? Is that the explanation for this waffle?

by snowyflake Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:56 pm

that a stone knows its a stone

Stones are not sentient beings. They are inanimate objects that have no self-awareness or cognizance. Being stoned is no excuse for making stones sentient.

by snowyflake Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:19 pm

Evolution is a fact. If something is a fact then there is evidence that says it's a fact. There is overwhelming evidence for evolution (micro and macro) and the few minor discrepancies do not discount the entire theory. Although, the creationists are frantically searching for anything to discount it.

Harun Yahya, an Islamist creationist, is truly spectacular in his deceit.
http://harunyahya.com/en/Books/974/the-evolution-deceit

This is absolutely scary in that he has published his Atlas of Creation and gives it free to muslim faith schools all over the world thereby insuring a generation of ignorance in an already backward religion.

by boatlady Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:46 pm

My dears, you're making my brain hurt confused

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:53 pm

Tosh.why are your views so much more sensible that anyone elses?..........................

They are not my views alone, they teach them to kids at school, they also teach kids the importance of reasonable thinking.

I want you to imagine Texas telling scientists common ancestry is a bit iffy but Genesis 1.1 has the same " who, what, when, where and how " as the BB....or Polyglide waving a butterfly about screaming liars.

Out of politeness or deference you humour their insanity, maybe you can empathise with those who need to build their story around anything is possible, I don't.

I judge people on what they believe, it is a mirror to their soul, fundamentalists cannot all be retarded, so I must assume the intelligent ones must believe for other reasons. In my very subjective opinion desperation breeds the need for self righteousness and deception, in effect Dawkins described them accurately, they are delusional. Their delusion makes them feel special and different, its a form of philosophical snobbery, mainstream religion ticks a lot of boxes but that's not enough for their ego.

Here is my theory behind their need:

Islamic fundamentalists use the vehicle of religion to air their grievance, their grievance is against human nature, its diversity and complexity worries them, it makes them insecure . Fundamentalists view things very simply, they like the certainty of black and white, in reality its politics not religion, they simply use the Koran to reinforce and legitimise their conservative views.

Creationists are no different they are not just defending God, they are defending the righteousness of their politics, Texas is a good old fashioned fire and brimstone bronze age citizen. He refuses to accept the liberal acceptance of evolution, it dilutes the righteousness of his politics.

Most fundamentalists have right wing views concerning morality and justice and its more or less OT eye for an eye, devalue the OT and you devalue their cultural identity, its all about self status.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:56 pm

theres only one special person, ,often, --its you; in nfact, theres only one person, anyway....yes..it you again...............you have no evidence of the reality of anyone or anything outside yourself.............your senses arent exactly comprehensively helping in that respect...........

Reality is what we are conscious of, to deny the existence of our consciousness requires consciousness, this is known as an axiom.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:09 pm

Ask yourself what do I get out of being an atheist, and the answer is nothing, atheism is just a response to fundmentalism. For decades I never even considered my atheism, moderate religion was liberal and impotent, and along came the bible and koran thumpers.

Fundamentalism legitimises fascism, bigotry, inequality and intolerance, its a tyranny and the tyrant is immortal. I tolerated their bronze age myths in its innocuous diluted form but I will not sit back and allow these people to blatantly teach lies to kids. Its breeding a culture of lunatics who scare the living shit out of me, these people are the biggest threat to my well being.

by oftenwrong Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:42 pm

"Ask yourself what do I get out of being an atheist, and the answer is nothing"

But you nevertheless insist upon sharing that nothing with the World. Curious.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:47 pm

Male chimps take themselves very seriously, they spend every waking hour trying to dominate others and raise their status to aid sexual selection.

Chimps organise raiding parties against a neighbouring group and obtain emotional pleasure in killing another of their species.

Chimps are aware but not to the same degree as us, its mostly instinct, ie genetic.

We share a common ancestor with this species, and it explains why young men form gangs and bully others, and why all men enjoy competition, risk success and ambition.

by Tosh Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:51 pm

But you nevertheless insist upon sharing that nothing with the World. Curious.

I am sharing my defence for the good of humanity, and I will burn at the stake all who disagree with my nothing.

by snowyflake Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:39 pm

But you nevertheless insist upon sharing that nothing with the World. Curious.

Why should you be the only one to share nothing with the World?

by snowyflake Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:54 pm

I am sharing my defence for the good of humanity, and I will burn at the stake all who disagree with my nothing.

Atheists have to take a stand for reason and rationality otherwise the religious nutters of the world will kill us all. We have the Middle East kicking off in spectacular fashion and it is only a matter of time before Iran tries to bomb Israel. Islam in the Middle East is as close to fascism as we get in the 21st century and we should not let that disease spread to other countries.

So while the believers are killing each other and innocent bystanders, atheists are the voice of reason in a world of religious insanity, inanity and delusion.

https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/the-threats/terrorism/international-terrorism/international-terrorism-and-the-uk/terrorist-plots-in-the-uk.html

This is what MI5 says about terror in Britain. If people want to believe in unsubstantiated rubbish like God, I wouldn't mind. But they insist, like polyglide, that they have to convert and annoy people and the second you say your religion is the right religion you have immediately and automatically put yourself in opposition to all other faiths and non-believers. And if you think that doesn't cause problems on both minor and major scales you are deluding yourself.

Perhaps they ought to take a lesson from Marcus Brigstocke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5pARGk5S4Q

by Shirina Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:06 am

But you nevertheless insist upon sharing that nothing with the World. Curious.

Tosh and Snowy are 100% correct. Religious fundamentalism poses the greatest threat to humanity second only to viruses. Through direct practices such as Crusades, Inquisitions, Fatwas, and witch hunts to inaction such as keeping birth control out of the hands of Africans and refusing to allow child-fiddling priests to be prosecuted, religion has caused more bloodshed and harm than everything other than disease. And religion has often used disease as a means to justify even more killilng.

Fundamentalism is not just a threat to life and health, but also freedom and liberty. It has ALWAYS been such, and today, with growing numbers of religiously-inspired hate groups and militias, with the Middle East butchering itself by the hundreds, the genocide that is going on in Africa and had been going on in Bosnia-Herzogovina - even the wars between Catholics and Protestants right here in our back yard - the ENTIRE world would be at peace if not for religious fundamentalism.

Atheists take a stand against this complete lack of reason. Atheists are not really organized enough to enact large scale, well-funded campaigns such as those witnessed here in the States with the religious anti-gay "culture war" (their words). Unfortunately, that's how it should be, for if atheists ever became organized, we would all run the risk of some uniform doctrine and dogma that would resemble far too much a religion. But there IS a message in atheism that goes beyond simply not believing in gods.

by egginbonce Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:30 am

snowyflake wrote:
that a stone knows its a stone

Stones are not sentient beings. They are inanimate objects that have no self-awareness or cognizance. Being stoned is no excuse for making stones sentient.

couldnt agree more! The second paving slab on the left on my patio agrees too!

by tlttf Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:40 am

The greatest thing to happen up to now was probably Henry V111 telling the Pope to f8ck off. Yes it was for selfish reasons, but it broke the overpowering stench of Catholicism from overpowering the world and opened up debate on reality and religion. Gawd bless owre enry.

by egginbonce Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:42 am

Shirina wrote:
But you nevertheless insist upon sharing that nothing with the World. Curious.

Tosh and Snowy are 100% correct. Religious fundamentalism poses the greatest threat to humanity second only to viruses. Through direct practices such as Crusades, Inquisitions, Fatwas, and witch hunts to inaction such as keeping birth control out of the hands of Africans and refusing to allow child-fiddling priests to be prosecuted, religion has caused more bloodshed and harm than everything other than disease. And religion has often used disease as a means to justify even more killilng.

Fundamentalism is not just a threat to life and health, but also freedom and liberty. It has ALWAYS been such, and today, with growing numbers of religiously-inspired hate groups and militias, with the Middle East butchering itself by the hundreds, the genocide that is going on in Africa and had been going on in Bosnia-Herzogovina - even the wars between Catholics and Protestants right here in our back yard - the ENTIRE world would be at peace if not for religious fundamentalism.

Atheists take a stand against this complete lack of reason. Atheists are not really organized enough to enact large scale, well-funded campaigns such as those witnessed here in the States with the religious anti-gay "culture war" (their words). Unfortunately, that's how it should be, for if atheists ever became organized, we would all run the risk of some uniform doctrine and dogma that would resemble far too much a religion. But there IS a message in atheism that goes beyond simply not believing in gods.

well said, Shirina....thats a (the?) very good argument for atheism(humanism?)...............mostly, I feel that atheists are just as tub-thumping as those they decry, which is what leads me to have the same attitude to them as to the religious loonies, but your humanitarian angle, to me,anyway, is a good one...............................tho.........................tho.................it does make me wonder what we're gonna do with all the extra people on the planet that will result from an end to the killing and cruelty that happens because of religion...........
Tho................I wonder if religion is an invented excuse for people to express their built in belligerence(a product of evolution?), and is akin to the yob in the pub saying 'I dont like your face', as a prelude to a bit of gratuitous violence?
Perhaps evolution is to blame for the religious freaks violence, then,since its principle must extend to things inorganic and ethereal(mindsets),as well as mechanically organic?
Gosh.............didnt mean for this to go where it has, not that it will make the world a better or a worse place,(despite my considerable expertise as a wordsmith(!)) Embarassed

Blimey- all too much too early in the day........................hallo to all;off to make another cup of tea;at my age, tea constitutes essential morning medication!

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