Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

by ROB Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Shirina wrote:
Humans are easily fooled.

Perhaps that’s why atheism is growing in spite of its illogicalness.

To prove that an omniscient being does not exist, one must be an omniscient being. Only God can prove God’s existence, and only God can prove God’s nonexistence; thus, if God’s nonexistence is ever proven, God will have proven God’s own nonexistence.

by polyglide Sat May 04, 2013 11:22 am

As I said in another post, a wasted education.

I said very clearly, if I am correct in my belief does it explain everything?.

You can give any ridiculous alternative but none can expalin creation.

by snowyflake Sat May 04, 2013 11:26 am

If you can make ridiculous claims like God created the universe and the earth and the heavens without evidence, then what is the difference in claiming that Zeus did so?

by snowyflake Sat May 04, 2013 11:29 am

As I said in another post, a wasted education.

I'm sorry you feel your education is a waste. Perhaps you didn't go far enough in your studies to understand some basic scientific concepts. You're never too old to learn. I got my degree when I was 50 (to support my previous qualifications) and if I can do it anyone can do it.

I'm no genius but I think I'm fairly reasonable and sensible.

by polyglide Sat May 04, 2013 11:57 am

Glad you think so, it must give you a little joy when being proven to be lacking in the that which matters most to feel that a degree in stupidity is a a worthwhile acheivement.

by polyglide Sat May 04, 2013 11:58 am

And I agree 100% you are certainly not a genious.

by snowyflake Sat May 04, 2013 12:16 pm

Glad you think so, it must give you a little joy when being proven to be lacking in the that which matters most to feel that a degree in stupidity is a a worthwhile acheivement.

My degree is in Applied and Human Biology. And there is one thing I did learn in university and that is how much I don't know. So I would never make ridiculous claims that God exists because the bible says he exists when we know that other fictional characters in story books don't exist either.

And I agree 100% you are certainly not a genious

It's spelled g-e-n-i-u-s.

by Tosh Sat May 04, 2013 12:28 pm

polyglide is a different kettle of fish, his belief is not based on the same psychological needs as Texas. Polyglide is a throwback, he is a Pharisee, an old fashioned simple thinking, bible thumping apocalyptic, his belief is based on good and evil, God explains human nature.

Polyglide needs the book ends of self righteousness to enable him to cope with the harsh realities of our animalistic drives, the world is a nightmare and God is his teddy bear. His religiosity is driven by his frustrations, he doesn't like mess, he just wants it all to go away and be fixed by God.

Like a tyrant he wants simple solutions to complex problems and he doesn't care whose rights he is trampling on to get his idea of righteousness in place, and like God, given the power he would commit genocide to solve the messy problem of human nature.

In effect a serial killer, a sociopath.

by Tosh Sat May 04, 2013 12:35 pm

We have the occasional male serial killers in the UK that prey on prostitutes, they do it out of a sense of self righteousness, they are always Christian nutters and they are carrying out god's wishes.

poyglide do you drive taxis or lorries, or hang about red light districts ?

I have a feeilng I will be reading about you soon, and it won't be on Cutting Edge.

by Shirina Sat May 04, 2013 12:41 pm

And I agree 100% you are certainly not a genious.

It's GENIUS, for Christ's sake. Snowy even spelled it correctly in the post you were responding to, but you were obviously thinking more on how to insult her than how to spell. It is quite apparent your vaunted common sense hasn't helped you in that department.

Insulting someone else's intelligence while making stupid spelling mistakes is definitely NOT the height of common sense, now, is it.

by Shirina Sat May 04, 2013 12:43 pm

a degree in stupidity

What did you get your degree in? Evidence Denial?

by Tosh Sat May 04, 2013 1:05 pm

Evil was once described as an absence of compassion, sociopaths are unable to empathize with anyone but themselves. Once you explain human weaknesses with an entity called Satan it dilutes empathy, it in effect creates an enemy, one that attaches itself to another human. This reduces the ability to relate and show some understanding toward the weaknesses of others, since they do not share the malevolence.

Its the reason why certain humans prefer the good and evil model, it divorces them from the relationship, and this creates a lack of empathy, the definition of evil itself.

So when you bump into a person who relies more on the OT God rather than a compassionate Jesus who included all humans in his circle of empathy, be careful, these people are EVIL.

The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

by Tosh Sat May 04, 2013 2:04 pm

If I am correct in my belief then is it possible that it explains all matters?

Of course " God did it " explains everything, just like " an alien race from another universe did it " explains everything.

What nether explanation reveals is " how " they did it, and knowledge is all about the " hows ".

We used to believe God made it rain, it was an explanation, now we know " how " it rains.

by Tosh Sun May 05, 2013 7:11 pm

I do not know what women did in our dark past but its not just Judaism that allotted blame to women in order to explain natural events. The Eleusinian mysteries basically blames Persephone for eating 4 pomegranate seeds that caused nothing to grow for 4 months of the year( winter). It also involved a conflict between Greek gods, with the goddess of agriculture Demeter plunging the world into famine and drought in order to save her daughter Persephone from death( underworld). I wonder if this was an allegory for women obstructing first born female infanticide in rural communities or maybe women objecting to their virgin daughters being offered as a human sacrifice to the gods.

Even today in the jungles of the Amazon and Papua New Guinea, men consider women as the main cause of conflict and death, only male logic would blame women for being the main reason tribes fight, given they fight to steal women off each other

When I read all of this, read polyglide's OT drivel and read what Islamists want to do to women's rights in Muslim democracies, I realize that I was born centuries too early, I am in effect a stranger in a strange land.

Just when I think the asylum cannot get any crazier I read the posts of Texas, reams and reams of utter guff about vowels and " Jays ".

God give me strength.

by polyglide Tue May 07, 2013 2:44 pm

A degree in neeedlework does not give anyone the right to have everyone in stiches.

A chef has no right to cook up a load of stories like evolution.

A degree in knitting does not give anyone the right to pull the wool over anyone eyes.

There are liars, theives, perverts, molesters, rapists, all with degrees obtained at the highest level and who hold some of the highest positions in society including MPs etc;

In many cases a degree points to a young life spent drinking, drugging and behaving in the most inapropriate manner, so irrespactive of my qualifications yours does not prove you know anything more than the man next door who has not attended school at all, that you can use in a proper manner.

The man next door may have comman sense sad to say lacking amonst the so called educated.

The present state of the world has been created by the so called educated who continually prove they are idiots.

by Tosh Tue May 07, 2013 4:37 pm

The present state of the world has been created by the so called educated who continually prove they are idiots.

For most of our history the only people who were educated were the religious, they proved they were idiots over and over again.

by Shirina Tue May 07, 2013 5:11 pm

There are liars, theives, perverts, molesters, rapists, all with degrees obtained at the highest level and who hold some of the highest positions in society including MPs etc;

Getting a degree doesn't make someone a thief, pervert, molester, or rapist, which is what you seem to be intimating with your comment. Why not do a little research for once in your life and realize that most criminals either have only a basic education or very little education.

The man next door may have comman sense sad to say lacking amonst the so called educated.

Oh, I get it. You're one of those people who wish to keep everyone stupid. That way, you don't have to feel inferior to those who actually went out there and advanced themselves and made something of their lives. You're envious of those who worked their tails off to hold higher level positions with better salaries so they don't have to do menial labor for a pittance while living in a trailer or the projects. Yeah, I've seen your kind before. I've never really heard someone WITH a degree make the claims you're making. Almost invariably, those who hate education and attack those who are educated are themselves uneducated; many never even finished high school.

In order to feel better about themselves, people like you try to lay claim to "common sense" as if common sense and education are mutually exclusive. It's a fantasy concocted by the uneducated to prop themselves up in order to feel better about themselves, to believe they have a precious jewel that educated people could never have. It's a load of horseshit. It's called COMMON sense for a reason. It isn't called "rare" sense or "uneducated sense."

In many cases a degree points to a young life spent drinking, drugging and behaving in the most inapropriate manner, so irrespactive of my qualifications yours does not prove you know anything more than the man next door who has not attended school at all, that you can use in a proper manner.

This "observation" is utter bullshit. First of all, those who spend their young lives drinking and drugging usually fail out of college and never obtain a degree.

Secondly, your idea that the uneducated man next door has equal or greater qualifications than someone with a degree is patently false. What's worse is that you KNOW it is false which makes you a liar. How do I know? Because I am certain you have needed the services of professional people at least a few times in your life, and I am QUITE certain you didn't go to the uneducated man next door to receive medical care. Nor would you go to him for legal aid, to have your taxes prepared, or to fix your computer. In fact, I doubt very much you'd want the uneducated man next door designing bridges, skyscrapers, dams, power plants, and aircraft, would you? No, I didn't think so.

Next time, don't LIE to make a point as that makes all the rest of your posts suspect.

The present state of the world has been created by the so called educated who continually prove they are idiots.

Envy is such an ugly emotion, polyglide. It's only one slip of the foot away from hatred. Watch yourself.

by trevorw2539 Tue May 07, 2013 8:52 pm

Polyglide quote

'In many cases a degree points to a young life spent drinking, drugging and behaving in the most inapropriate manner, so irrespactive of my qualifications yours does not prove you know anything more than the man next door who has not attended school at all, that you can use in a proper manner.'

Ridiculous. A small minority give the majority a bad name.

Look to the uneducated binge drinking in our streets before making ridiculous accusations.

by Tosh Tue May 07, 2013 11:20 pm

Look to the uneducated binge drinking in our streets before making ridiculous accusations.

Trevor, polyglide has a degree in slippery slope fallacies, according to him if you cannot explain the life of a butterfly you are in effect Satan.

Mengele wasn't completely off the mark.

by oftenwrong Wed May 08, 2013 11:39 am

I'm wondering whether Polyglide might be looking for a change of avatar.

Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2) - Page 18 End-is-nigh

by polyglide Wed May 08, 2013 5:18 pm

Regarding degrees.

I had a friend who was a very good artist and he obtained a degree in that field.

There was no real opportunity to make a living in based on the dgree.

He was also gifted in many other ways.

After trying several opportunities to make a living, including several years in Australia, he returned to England and eventually spent 30 years as a Dustbin Man.

NOw during that 30 years he did a public service which helped to reduce many kinds of possible problems.

He had a reasonable living in doing so.

Now you tell me what contribution to society as a whole your degrees have have enabled you to do.

by Tosh Wed May 08, 2013 6:07 pm

Now you tell me what contribution to society as a whole your degrees have have enabled you to do.

I have a degree in theology, bloody useless.

by oftenwrong Wed May 08, 2013 7:36 pm

"I have a degree in theology, bloody useless."

Presumably a degree of approximately 135° usually described as "obtuse".

by Tosh Wed May 08, 2013 10:33 pm

Presumably a degree of approximately 135° usually described as "obtuse".[quote]

Not from my angle it aint.

by oftenwrong Wed May 08, 2013 11:01 pm

QUOTE: "I had a friend who was a very good artist and he obtained a degree in that field. There was no real opportunity to make a living in based on the degree....
After trying several opportunities to make a living, including several years in Australia, he returned to England and eventually spent 30 years as a Dustbin Man."

It's not apparent whether we are to take that as a criticism of the "friend", the educational system, or life generally.

Taking my own experience as a statistically inaccurate sample, I have met a lorry-driver with a degree and a similarly-qualified man working as a filing-clerk. In the Military, it is common to encounter someone with apparent "Officer Qualities" serving among the Other Ranks because the individual prefers not to assume the responsibility of leadership.

Able persons have that choice to make. A lot of others find themselves with no alternatives, given the number of obstacles which Society puts in their way.

by Shirina Thu May 09, 2013 3:24 pm

I had a friend who was a very good artist and he obtained a degree in that field.

Well, there is a major cause for your friend's issue. Finding a career in art is excessively competitive no matter how talented you are - mainly because of art being so subjective.

Now you tell me what contribution to society as a whole your degrees have have enabled you to do.

Gee, I dunno, polyglide. I guess that depends on whether you feel that teaching is a public service. In the US, a person must earn a four-year degree in order to be licensed as a teacher and then earn the equivalent of a masters degree within 5 years in order to keep the license. That's because it's always good for teachers to know something about what it is they're teaching.

Besides, it's not all about performing public services. Most often people get degrees to make themselves more marketable in the profession they want to pursue. Your artistic friend may have made a decent living as a dustbin man, but was he happy? Did he wake up each morning loving his job? Few things in life suck as much as working a job that you hate. Happiness is important when choosing a career.

by polyglide Fri May 10, 2013 10:12 am

Teaching others, to teach others, to teach others, offers nothing to society which is self evident.

My friend was more happy doing a job he knew was worthwhile and having enough time left to enjoy his love of art rather than doing a job which offers nothing to society as a whole.

It would be very interesting to learn just how many of those taught actually turn out to be of any ust to society, and how many persued self interest.

by polyglide Fri May 10, 2013 10:38 am

The thread is supposed to be about the existance of God.

I have attempted in a reasonable manner to discuss the thread.

My last attempt was to those who do not believe in God to consider the fact that I do believe and also believe he created everything and if I am right then this would explain everything.

Now as far as I am concerned it was a simple ye4s or no, which any reasonable person could understand.

Instead you get replies including you might as well believe in Santa.

A reply worthy of an idiot when considering the question.

The question did not involve anything other than that stated.

I do believe in Santa as a fictional character as I do many others of which the origin can be found.

God is evidenced by all that is involved, not only on earth and all living things but the universe as a whole.

Now the thread is. Evidence of God and everything we have to consider the question points to the fact that there must be a creator, nothing comes about by chance, in particular when thousands of examples of interdependancy, is involved along with established behaviour that affects many other aspects of life.

I have said what I believe and why.

Now the doubters can explain just how the butterfly and the oak tree came about.

You say you believe, explain in simple terms just why youi believe and the exact grounds in evolution as the creator and if you then say you do not believe in evolution as the creator then just what or who do you believe is?.

by Shirina Fri May 10, 2013 11:09 am

Teaching others, to teach others, to teach others, offers nothing to society which is self evident.

Apparently, good writing was neither self-evident or ever taught to you. In addition, if something is self-evident, why would it need to be taught? Keeping in mind, of course, that religious belief is ALSO taught.

I do find it mildly ironic that someone who bashes education is sitting here trying to engage in a debate about evolution. As I've said, I think I have you pegged psychologically given that I've never heard an educated person piss and moan about being educated. The whining always comes from the uneducated, especially those who wish they WERE educated.

My friend was more happy doing a job he knew was worthwhile and having enough time left to enjoy his love of art rather than doing a job which offers nothing to society as a whole.

Are you suggesting that art offers nothing to society?

It would be very interesting to learn just how many of those taught actually turn out to be of any ust to society, and how many persued self interest.

What do you regard as being of "use" to society? If we're going to start throwing around judgement calls, I think society could do without preachers, pastors, priests, rabbis, imams, televangelists, tent revivalists, and all manner of religious brainwashers.

by Shirina Fri May 10, 2013 11:33 am

The thread is supposed to be about the existance of God.

And so far, none has been provided.

and if I am right then this would explain everything.

I don't believe you are right.

God is evidenced by all that is involved, not only on earth and all living things but the universe as a whole.

No, polyglide, that is patently untrue. The best, the very BEST you can say is that the universe provides evidence of a CREATOR.

It does not, in any way, shape, or form provide any -- ANY -- evidence or proof that God IS that creator. Nothing about the universe proves the Bible true, nothing about it proves your religion is true, nothing about it proves your personal beliefs are true. So you can skip the butterfly and oak tree defense and present the evidence within the universe that proves your religion.

I'll wait right here.

I have said what I believe and why.

So have I. Many times.

Now the doubters can explain just how the butterfly and the oak tree came about.

The truth of evolution does not depend on me, or anyone else here, explaining the butterfly and the oak tree. This is especially true given that we have provided you with plenty of links explaining the process. Instead, you cling to this absurd idea that quoting someone else invalidates evolution. That argument is more than just a fallacy - it's just plain stupid and one that I will no longer entertain or dignify with a response. If you want to know about butterflies and oak trees, well, you have the entire internet at your disposal.

You say you believe, explain in simple terms just why youi believe

Here's the problem: You seem to think that evolution is some simple one-page pamphlet that can be easily summarized and explained in a forum post. Well, I have news for you. IT CAN'T. That would be like asking you to explain the entire Bible book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse. Even if you could do that, would you want to? Would you REALLY want to sit here writing hundreds of forum posts explaining the Bible all the while knowing full well that you're not going to convince me the Bible is true? Just because no one is willing to put that much work into posting does not mean we don't understand what evolution is. I KNOW that's where you're trying to go, and that dog doesn't hunt, either.

In addition, we don't believe in evolution the way you believe in God. You can't make a side-by-side comparison between the two. We (meaning all evolutionists) simply feel that evolution is the best explanation for our natural world. If evolution is proven wrong tomorrow, we'll be the first to accept it. Back to the drawing board. Nothing, however, will ever cause you to walk away from that mythology you believe in, and that much has already been demonstrated by your refusal to see evidence if said evidence contradicts your religious paradigm. In fact, that is the ONLY reason why you oppose evolution so vehemently -- not because you've studied the evidence and found scientific fault with it, but because it goes against what your cult leader told you was true.

by Tosh Fri May 10, 2013 12:10 pm

Now the thread is. Evidence of God and everything we have to consider the question points to the fact that there must be a creator, nothing comes about by chance,

Never mind evidence of God or a creator of any kind, please prove nothing comes about by chance, prove a female mosquito infects a child with malaria by design ?

Once you do this we can look at who the designer could be.

by Tosh Fri May 10, 2013 12:16 pm

polyglide requires every single genetic step of every species on our planet before he believes in evolution, and all I want is one piece of evidence that proves nothing can come about by chance.

This person's argument is reversing into primitive ignorance from whence it came.

by snowyflake Fri May 10, 2013 7:29 pm

polyglide requires every single genetic step of every species on our planet before he believes in evolution,

He doesn't understand it, therefore it is irrelevant. He will never make the effort or take the time to understand it because he has been told (not taught) that evolution is false. He is a believer. He is not educated, he doesn't understand science, he doesn't understand critical analysis or even common sense (something he rates higher than education, credentials, qualifications or expertise).

Polyglide doesn't require anything to change his mind because he will never change his mind from his dogmatic, uneducated point of view. And at 70 years old he is unlikely to make fundamental changes to his thinking patterns.

Brainwashing can be ingrained and is very difficult to deprogram.

by oftenwrong Fri May 10, 2013 7:34 pm

".... prove a female mosquito infects a child with malaria by design ...."

Hunger drives all God's creatures to eat. Mosquitos derive energy though sucking blood, but unfortunately they then vomit into the wound, which is what causes Malaria. Man's preference for red meat is also dangerous to wildlife. Designed or accidental, the results are remarkably similar.

by snowyflake Fri May 10, 2013 7:39 pm

Red meat causes malaria?

Wot u tockin bout, OW?

by Shirina Fri May 10, 2013 7:57 pm

Man's preference for red meat is also dangerous to wildlife. Designed or accidental, the results are remarkably similar.

Your comparison would be more apt if mosquitos needed to devour an entire human in order to feed. Humans can't really take the choices parts from a cow and have the cow survive.

I think the bottom line however, is asking whether it was really necessary for God to design the mosquito to vomit into its own food supply. In evolutionary terms, an insect that kills off its own food supply through disease can be passed off as a genetic variation that hasn't been phased out yet. But as an intentionally designed mechanism, it's just plain stupid.

by snowyflake Fri May 10, 2013 8:53 pm

People who have malaria often cope with sickle cell anaemia (a common anaemia amongst black people) better. The malaria parasite offsets the sickling of the red cells. This is actually evidence of evolution. The response of the host to adapt and survive the attack of the parasite. Smile

by polyglide Sat May 11, 2013 10:47 am

My elder sister taught students at college several of whom have become top chefs, those that did not at least learned something that was of use for life.

My elder brother was a chief engineer with the largest company of the time.

My younger brother was a post office engineer.

I have travelled to many parts of the world but my main occupation was as a company accountant for the same company for over 30 years, during which time I looked after not only the monetary affairs but also the welfare of the employees.

So I feel my family have all been of service to the nation as a whole and none of our education has been wasted.

by polyglide Sat May 11, 2013 10:49 am

Now how many teachers can say that all or even the majority of their students made use of their efforts in attempting to educate them?

by polyglide Sat May 11, 2013 10:58 am

You do not understand my question regarding evolution.

You do not understand my question regarding creation.

I will give you a head start.

Just explain the stage prior to the acorn becoming the seed of the oak tree, forget all that went on before and do the same for the butterfly, regarding what was missing before the final stage.

If I claimed to know something I would be able to explain it in detail and so should you.

by snowyflake Sat May 11, 2013 11:22 am

So I feel my family have all been of service to the nation as a whole and none of our education has been wasted.

You believe in invisible superheroes, devils, demons, angels. You believe in the apocolypse and the prophecies in the bible. You have deluded yourself with superstition. None of which is based on any facts or evidence. It is just your belief.

Maybe your education wasn't wasted on the level of work you managed to achieve but your critical thinking abilities are sorely wasted because you do not question anything that contradicts your beliefs. That's the sad thing. Your mind is ring-fenced, double-padlocked and impenetrable.

by snowyflake Sat May 11, 2013 11:31 am

If I claimed to know something I would be able to explain it in detail and so should you.

You claim to know that God created the universe and life. Yet you can't explain how he did so.

You are obsessed with butterflies and oak trees. Look them up on the internet and find out for yourself how butterflies evolved. I'm not doing your homework for you. Besides that, I'm not an expert in butterfly evolution. In fact, I'm not an expert in evolution but I have studied it and I understand the concept and how it occurs and why. For me, this is a far more elegant, scientifically viable, evidence-based explanation than God magicked the universe and life into existence. I can just as easily, with just as much validity, say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster did all that.

Please explain the difference between claiming God did these things and claiming that Zeus, Thor, Jupiter or any of the other Gods/gods/god of this planet did these things.

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