Do they understand?

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There is one kind of Christianity that never spoken about. This is the one where Christians see that the heart of God is broken because his children “Adam and Eve” chose the fruit of “the tree of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” rather than to live within his will and grow into his children. Mature children that would pass on through the generations his will and his Kingdom in their hearts. These children would not of needed a messiah because they would not of fallen.

It could be that this broken hearted God has worked tirelessly through the generations to establish the condition where a symbolic foundation could be made to start the restoration of mankind and at various levels through Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob eventually to Moses and through the history of the Jewish people up to the life of Jesus.

Jesus represents symbolically a rebirth of the ideal that Adam was meant to fulfil. Jesus would of established The Kingdom of God On Earth if the Jewish people had embraced him but instead for the sake of fear and a few other excuses. As a consequence of this betrayal by the Jewish people of God’s anointed one the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth could not be established, but there was enough of a foundation for God’s Kingdom to be established spiritually and for God to continue working with mankind but instead of through the Jewish people he elected to work through those that accepted and relied on Jesus as the foundation of their lives.

Parallels have been drawn between events in Jewish and Christian histories and significant events.

I don’t have time to check the reliability of the owners of the site but I have come across these ideas before http://www.puritans.net/news/parallelhistories022403.htm among other places I saw the essentials of Jewish / Christian parallel histories on a wall chart/poster in the office of a Catholic Priest.

What comes out to me from the Bible account of the Jewish people and early Christian history is how hard and how desperately God worked for man’s salvation and how that was don done primarily through the lives of significant people in a specific genealogy first of physically through the Jewish people and then spiritually through the Christians. This work has been tireless on the part of God but patchy on the part of those few significant men, men that everybody else needed to catch the coat-tails of.

The Jews still look for their Messiah, the Christians seek the return of theirs and Islam (which could be perceived as a successful attempt to bring the idol worshipping Bedouin into the monotheistic fold) are expecting a figure to come at some unspecified time in the future to wrap up history to some kind of conclusion [not dissimilar to Revelations and Jewish End time prophesies].

That was a very brief synopsis of monotheism but the striking thing is the effort of God and a tiny number of others. What gratitude does God get for this? From many people a false sense of gratitude and a shopping list, if I was God I might feel tempted to tell these where to go so it’s just as well I'm not God.

Where is the understanding of this parents broken heart, his patience, who can even imagine God crying each time one of us hurts him by, who can imagine wiping the tears of God and promising with every fibre in his existence that he will not hurt him again, who tries to undo all the harm they've done. I have seen this but not in a religious context. I have seen it when a repentant son asks his father for forgiveness, and seen the promise of good behaviour kept. Where it is not seen is in church, it is not seen in the prayers of Christians or in their hearts enacted (in their lives in other words).

[I will post this on two sites so if you happen to post on both then please forgive me but I have been thinking of this for a while].

Heretic

When computer programs have efficiently and accurately mapped every aspect of human psychology, will it still be possible to have discussions about God?

Of course it will often, I'm an atheist so do not believe in him, but don't mind discussing him.

If you are a parent then you will understand the feelings and emotions that can be involved in so being.

We do not actually know the make up of God and other beings in his realm so are unable to comment, we have to base out thoughts and feelings on what we do know.

That he does not exist.

No, all the facts point to there being intelligence far beyond our understanding being involved in the universe of which we are only less than a thought.

If you are talking about other people/beings in our universe PG, or just this god you believe in all don't exist only in your mind.

The more the scientists learn the more complex the answers become

Best answer you have given in a long time PG.

polyglide wrote:No,  all the facts point to there being intelligence far beyond our understanding being involved in the universe of which we are only less than a thought.

In other words, another "argument from ignorance" fallacy.

When discussing these topics, many Christians remind me of my cat when I'm eating something yummy and he wants some of it.

First he'll try the direct approach by sitting there right in front of me and giving me the "I want some" stare. Then he'll try begging with meows. If that doesn't work, he'll jump up next to me and try to swipe at it, then he'll go to the other side of me and attempt the same thing. And if I'm on the couch, he'll jump up on the back of it and try swiping the food from over my head.

Yeah, always trying the same tactic from different angles as if we're going to be fooled. It almost always comes down to, "We don't know, therefore God!"

Then you give a better reason for life.

You have asked for it now PG.

I am waiting, I am waiting.

Don't worry PG, Shirina doesn't usually keep you waiting too long when you challenge her beliefs.

I do not think Shirina has any belief, I think she just does not believe.

She probably can't believe what she's reading on here at times.

Yep and you are a typical example.

wrong PG it is theists that are the typical example.

polyglide wrote:Then you give a better reason for life.

A little while ago I attended the funeral of an elderly lady, a widow. She was uneducated, unable to read or write when I first met her. During that time I was able to help her with reading her mail, explaining her finances to her (all of which her deceased husband had dealt with) and everything to do with dealing with the Council, utilities etc.
At her funeral the family attended out of respect for her daughter, as there had been estrangement in the family. Only 3 others were there. Representative of the village parish council, someone dealing with funeral details and myself.
Anyone remember the old song which goes 'If I can help somebody as I pass along, If I can cheer somebody with a word or song. If I can show somebody he is travelling wrong. THEN my living will not be in vain.' Do you want a reason for living?

If, of course, you mean the reason of life, let me tell you 2 short stories.

Ug was sitting in his cave entrance with his woman Og. It had been a tiring day, hunting unsuccessfully for meat. He turned to his woman and said. 'Og, onk ouse glog grable' which translated means 'Og, what's the meaning of all this?
They would have been sitting there thinking about it until today if a Sabre-toothed tiger had not crept from the back of the cave and eaten them.

Arbuthnot the space pilot, who originated from the earth station on Europa, was bored during his long trip to the Vega system. With only a computer as company he often conversed with it over various subjects. One day the subject turned to religion, and he asked the computer if there was a god somewhere in the Universe. The computer 'computed' for several hours before declaring 'I find no trace of a god'.
'Well' said Arbuthnot 'What is the point of it all. I can't see any reason for life'. Which was rather a silly thing to say to a computer which uses logic and reason. It promptly switched off all life support systems in the spacecraft.

That's a question that has been asked from time immemorial. What is the reason that life exists?

Well Trevor you have made me laugh with your post, especially the one about the computer.

stuart torr wrote:Well Trevor you have made me laugh with your post, especially the one about the computer.

By the way, call me Trev. Most people call me 'Oi you', but you can use Trev.  

Thanks Trev =from stu

I like a good laugh but not at the expense of reason.

If there is nothing the other side of life then just explain what the point is.

Life as we understand it in any terms and in particular time
is not worth a light, some may enjoy their whole life whilst others suffer for the whole of theirs.

If mankind was wiped out completely the animal and plant life would continue in a far better manner, each to their own and acting according to why they were created.

It is mankind who has deviated from the proper path and we are seeing the results.

polyglide wrote:I like a good laugh but not at the expense of reason.

If there is nothing the other side of life then just explain what the point is.

Life as we understand it in any terms and in particular time
is not worth a light, some may enjoy their whole life whilst others suffer for the whole of theirs.

If mankind was wiped out completely the animal and plant life would continue in a far better manner, each to their own and acting according to why they were created.

It is mankind who has deviated from the proper path and we are seeing the results.

Your whole argument seems to be that if there is no afterlife then life has no point. I come at it from the point of view that there not being an afterlife gives much more meaning and purpose to life.

I can understand your point of view.

However, it does not answer why, how etc;

I don't think there is an obvious straightforward answer to the question as to the meaning to life. The fact some of the greatest minds in history have pondered the question without reaching a conclusion would tend to back that up.
Irrespective of that, it doesn't mean that the absence of a deity or an afterlife renders life meaningless.

A matter of opinion, Dan.

Surely if you think it is a matter of opinion then that proves my point.

Dan Fante wrote:I don't think there is an obvious straightforward answer to the question as to the meaning to life. The fact some of the greatest minds in history have pondered the question without reaching a conclusion would tend to back that up.
Irrespective of that, it doesn't mean that the absence of a deity or an afterlife renders life meaningless.

A female cheetah has cubs to feed and instinctively 'knows' that without food they will die. She 'knows' her purpose is to feed them and enable them to grow. While she is hunting she comes on a herd of buffalo. She 'knows' instinctively that these are too big for her to tackle and she would probable be killed if she did. However she can take on a small wilderbeest - if she can catch it - and she does. And her cubs are fed. With luck they will live to further the species. She has no thoughts of an afterlife, nor, as far as I know, do others animals. (I'm not Dr Dolittle).

We are animals, evolved to a higher degree than others. Yet we have the same purpose - to propogate the species where possible.
Medical sciences and others are based on the need to prolong the life of the Human animal. Not just in terms of the individual, but the future race too.

I apologise to those who perhaps, through various reasons, cannot, or do not want, to procreate.

Nevertheless, look at History. Look at civilisations where large families are expected, where the necessity of sons is urgently felt - to prolong the family name. It is instinctive in human nature, as it is in the animal kingdom. A male lion will kill the cubs of a mother if they are not his own, to prolong his family line.

However chaps, if you meet a widow or unmarried mother and you decide to get wed, forget the Male lion example, it could lead you into trouble  

Of course religion will give you 'spiritual' answers.

Well Trev.
I must admit as an atheist, you speak more sense as a spiritual person than any others that I have met and spoken too.

Just because we cannot explain a phenomenon does nothing to disprove it. I've never read a convincingly accurate description of death, but we're all going to die anyway.

oftenwrong wrote:Just because we cannot explain a phenomenon does nothing to disprove it.  I've never read a convincingly accurate description of death, but we're all going to die anyway.

Lack of brain activity  

oftenwrong wrote:Just because we cannot explain a phenomenon does nothing to disprove it.  I've never read a convincingly accurate description of death, but we're all going to die anyway.

It's not a very appropriate analogy because the occurrence of death can be easily proven.

Hi Dan, hope you are well.
Death=lack of b/p, pulse, heartbeat, brain activity.

"Lack of brain activity" might suggest that zombies are not restricted to television drama.

oftenwrong, add the lack of B/P, pulse, heartbeat, to lack of brain activity, and that is death.

polyglide wrote:I like a good laugh but not at the expense of reason.

If there is nothing the other side of life then just explain what the point is.

Life as we understand it in any terms and in particular time
is not worth a light, some may enjoy their whole life whilst others suffer for the whole of theirs.

If mankind was wiped out completely the animal and plant life would continue in a far better manner, each to their own and acting according to why they were created.

It is mankind who has deviated from the proper path and we are seeing the results.

Except you never quite get around to explaining in detail just HOW we have deviated from the "proper" path. You make it sound as if we should lop off our opposable thumbs, strip naked, get down on all-fours, and frolick with the animals.

As for what the point is ... well, the point of life is whatever you decide it is. Yeah, that's right, YOU have to decide. Just throwing it all onto God's shoulders is both easy and cowardly; it is the penultimate expression of someone who is burdened by freedom and would much rather be bossed around and ordered about than to have to make your own decisions and be responsible for the outcomes. Just give your life over to God and wait for his orders (which essentially amounts to reading tea leaves and chicken entrails). It's no small wonder why so many people who live free seek bondage under the tyrannical rule of a dictatorial God. Just blindly follow those rules, do not deviate from the path, do not color outside the lines, you will not get a vote, you will not get a say, there will be no debate, you will do exactly what God tells you to do (whatever that may be) like a good little robot - you know, a robot? I seem to remember people saying that God didn't want robots which is why he gave everyone free will. But it seems to me the only reason why he gave humans free will was because of his eager anticipation of people disobeying so he could (gleefully muahaha) send them to Hell!!!

Because from what I can tell, merely obeying rules without question is volunteering to be the very same robot that God was trying to avoid. Wouldn't he know that, though? Which means God gave humanity the propensity to rebel on purpose - just to watch people burn!!!!

He even gave his angels the propensity to rebel - because God WANTED Lucifer to throw a hissy. I mean, seriously, haven't you ever thought about that? A rebellion in Heaven? How can there be a rebellion in a place that's supposed to be perfect? How could an omniscient God get blindsided by such an uprising? Well ... unless this was all planned just so God could dump Satan and all of his demonic minions onto earth. Muahaha, take THAT you insolent humans. See how you like dem apples! Now you have to walk God's narrow path while the evil minions he created and purposefully put on earth are trying to knock you off it. Haha! Because walking a path is just too damn easy. So God added an extra little bonus challenge - which is starting to remind me a lot of Q from Star Trek, come to think of it ...

What's baffling is how none of this really makes a shard of sense yet this IS what you believed happened. Incredible.

Well Shirina,
As an Atheist I love reading your posts, because when life ends for myself all I'm going to be is a box of bones, or an urn of ashes.
I'm not going to heaven or hell as I do not believe they exist.

The you are in for a SHOCK.

You are PG as there is nothing after death.  

We must beg to differ, the only time you will know for sure is when you die.

I cannot think that God has gone to all the trouble on behalf of mankind just for a laugh.

It makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would a human evolve and develope all the feelings he has and all the abilities he has, unless there was a purpose?.

Accident, luck, etc, wake up and see the light.

Well PG, YOU WILL BE ROTTING IN YOUR COFFIN just like I will unless you have opted to be burnt.