Should the Elgin Marbles be returned to Greece?

The Elgin Marbles (more appropriately known as ‘The Parthenon Marbles’) are a collection of 88 classical Greek marble sculptures that used to be part of the Parthenon and other buildings on the Acropolis of Athens. In 1811, when Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire, Lord Elgin obtained permission to do some excavating, but actually removed about half of the surviving sculptures of the Parthenon and transported them by sea to Britain. They have been in the British Museum in London since 1816.

Greece, which became an independent country in 1830, wants the sculptures returned to them. It considers that the cutting and removal of the monuments was illegal, a blatant act of vandalism and the theft of intellectual property. The Greeks have raised the issue on an international level since the 1980s, with the Greek actress, singer and politician Melina Mercouri (1920-1994) leading the campaign. Neil Kinnock promised that if Labour won the general election of 1992 the sculptures would be returned to Greece, but sadly for the Greeks (and for us) it didn’t win. This year UNESCO has agreed to mediate in resolving the dispute, but there hasn't yet been a response from the UK.

So why haven’t the sculptures been returned to Greece? Boris Johnson is vehemently opposed to the suggestion, stupidly describing it as a “Hitlerian agenda for London’s cultural treasures”. The Parthenon was built in the 5th century BC by the city-state of Athens, long before Greece existed as a country. Elgin had a licence from the Turkish rulers of Athens to tamper with the site and he may have saved the sculptures from a worse fate at the hands of the Turks. The British state bought the sculptures from Elgin and turned them over to the British Museum, whose trustees are now their legal owners. Sending one set of artefacts to Greece would set a precedent: museums all over the world might then be expected to send exhibits to the modern nation states occupying the land on which they were built or found. ‘The Mona Lisa’, dating from the early 16th century, was "acquired" by King Francis I of France and has been in The Louvre in Paris since 1797; do you think the French would ever send it back to Italy, which didn’t exist as a nation before the 1860s?

I certainly don’t buy much of that. Can you imagine the reaction if a British monument had been treated in the same way as the Parthenon? Supposing Big Ben had been taken by the Nazis and sold ‘legally’ to another country (how’s that for a “Hitlerian agenda”, Boris?), or if the Greeks had relocated Stonehenge to Athens or taken the Crown Jewels from the Tower of London! Even Elgin’s licence from the Turkish rulers of Athens was probably exceeded, since asset-stripping isn’t quite the same thing as excavating. As to possibly saving the sculptures from destruction by the Turks, that’s hardly a claim to legitimate ownership; if you stop a thief from stealing some of your neighbour’s property, it doesn’t make it yours. The bottom line for me is that if you take something that doesn’t belong to you, and you get caught, then you have to give it back. Theft is theft, and the passage of time doesn’t lessen the crime.

Opinion polls in the last two decades have shown that Britons overwhelmingly agree with Neil Kinnock and think the sculptures should be returned. The Greeks have even suggested joint curatorship of them through the establishment of a branch of the British Museum, within sight of the Parthenon, on the top floor of the new Acropolis Museum. Writing in ‘The Guardian’, Josephine Quinn said: “There's a persuasive argument that people should have the chance to see the marbles beside the Acropolis on which they were first erected. In the new Acropolis Museum, the Parthenon itself is visible through the windows of the room in which the marbles would be displayed together with the fragments that remained in Athens. The sculptures currently split in two – including a decapitated goddess and a great procession that disappears half way through – would be reunited, and would finally make all their sense. Athens is no less accessible than London to the rest of the world, and to see and think about this temple and almost all of its sculpture on the same morning, under the same Athenian sky, would be a privilege and a joy.”

Sources used:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/19/return-the-elgin-marbles-to-athens-helena-smith

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/14/parthenon-marbles-greece-george-clooney

Wow Ivan.
I really did not know that is how we got them, technically speaking we are thieves are we not? I believe without a doubt that they should go back to Greece straight away. If it does set precedence's for other artifacts/paintings ETC then so be it, it cannot be helped.

The phrase "Dog in a manger" would seem to apply.

However, if a general principle were to be established that historical artefacts ought to be returned to their original site, most of the world's Museums would soon look like the scene of a major burglary.

How come OW? France returns stuff to Italy? now surely a country has something of France's? we return the Elgin Marbles? Has a country got something of ours? and it all carries on like that, so we would have something to replace them, if not it would only be England losing out would it not?

oftenwrong wrote:-
if a general principle were to be established that historical artefacts ought to be returned to their original site….

I understand the point that returning the Elgin Marbles could set a precedent, but I think this case is unique for several reasons:-

- The sculptures were acquired in very dubious circumstances. It’s not even clear that the Ottoman rulers of Athens gave permission for the wanton acts of vandalism which Elgin carried out. He didn’t pay anyone for his acquisitions. On the other hand, many of the artefacts in museums around the world have been purchased legally.

- There’s a big difference between simply moving a painting from one art gallery in Paris to another one in Florence and reuniting parts of sculptures. For example, at the moment a huge statue of Poseidon has his upper part in London and his lower part in Athens.

- The Greeks have suggested joint curatorship of the sculptures through the establishment of a branch of the British Museum within sight of the Parthenon. Aesthetically, it would be a better place to view the complete sculptures than having pieces of them in the badly lit British Museum in London.

- This isn’t a whim. Although the modern campaign began in the 1980s, the Greeks first asked for the sculptures back during the reign of King Otto, who was their first monarch after the nation won independence in 1830.

I think the Greeks are being far too generous where the Marbles are concerned, because as you have pointed out Ivan, Elgin was nothing but a wanton vandal was he not? especially when it comes to cutting a huge statue of Poseidon in half !! They must be re-united as a whole, in Athens I believe along with the rest of the Marbles.
Also it would not set such a precedence either, because as you pointed out Ivan, most of the other artifacts were actually paid for and not stolen.

"Elgin was nothing but a wanton vandal was he not?"

Like so many things, it depends upon your point of view. Reportedly, Elgin found that the Turkish soldiery then occupying Greece, were in process of defacing the statuary and carving graffiti on the marble, so he felt it necessary to "rescue" the stones for posterity.

People are still "rescuing" historical memorabilia from a skip.

Well OW we will just have to agree to differ on this point will we not.
Then see what happens when our countries come to an agreement.

Hmm, so if I think some thugs are about to vandalise my neighbour's car and I can get the car into my garage to deter them, can I keep the car or should I give it back to the neighbour when he asks for it?  

As I agree with the Marbles Ivan you give it back to your neighbour when he asks for it do you not?

"The Greek government has a just cause and it is time the British Museum recognised this and returned the marbles to Greece. This is not just what we are saying, this is what the United Nations has said, the European Parliament has said, and in one opinion poll after another, this is what the British people have also demanded. A horseman has his head in Athens and body in London. The Greek God Poseidon has his torso separated between Greece and the UK. This means that nobody can celebrate the marbles united in the place that they come from, which is a monument that represents Greek ancient history, and the birthplace of our modern civilisation." (Amal Clooney, October, 2014)

Oh, well, of course if the new wife of a Hollywood "star" says so, then it must happen.

Meanwhile, where is Egypt to store, conservate and display the returning volume of looted artefacts, and will the crooked dealers be prosecuted? Or Greece, or Syria, most of whom's national treasures disappeared under an American administration following 2002?

Be prepared for a very dirty international disagreement over a period of even more years.

I have already said Ivan that the Marbles should be returned to Greece from whence they came, it just appears that OW is of a different opinion does it not.

Yes, Stu, it does. Possession is nine-points of the Law. Discuss.

I accept that Mrs Clooney is a barrister and may well be being paid to take up the cause of returning the Elgin Marbles to Greece, but that makes the case neither more nor less valid.

For reasons I've stated earlier, I don't see why this should open the floodgates for a massive demand to return artefacts to their places of origin - and certainly not if the receiving country has nowhere to store them!

Why can't we, like good parents, just settle for joint custody in a branch of the British Museum within sight of the Parthenon?

When does a grave-robber turn into an archaeologist?

OW I have to laugh in a way at your determination to stick by your argument, yet also congratulate you too because I know you will not give up.

On the one hand, THIS. On the other hand THAT, Stu. So when you've run out of hands, what are you going to do?

Stick to your principles is what.

Amid sanctions, British Museum lends Russia controversial Elgin Marble

From an article by Richard Allen Greene, Susannah Cullinane and Teo Kermeliotis:-

As the United Kingdom continues to enforce sanctions on Russia over its actions in Ukraine, the British Museum has announced it is lending one of the controversial Elgin Marbles to a St. Petersburg museum.

Greek Prime Minister Antonis Samaras described it as "a provocation to the Greek people. The Parthenon and its sculptures have been looted. The value of the sculptures is priceless. We Greeks identify with our history and culture, which cannot be fragmented, loaned or bestowed."

Earlier this year, UNESCO said it had received a request from Greece to mediate in the dispute with Britain over the Elgin Marbles. In October, the agency said it had not yet received a response to an official letter sent to the British government and the British Museum.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/05/world/europe/uk-elgin-marbles-russia/

This loaning of the Elgin Marble statue is very antagonistic towards the Greek peoples, and they should be returned to Greece immediately, or Britain will face sanctions of some kind I do believe.

If the Elgin Marbles were to be sent back to Greece, I forecast with total confidence that it would not be at the expense of the Greek government or People.

No OW IT would be at our expense one presumes.

.... and then something like THIS happens:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28191181

How Syria's ancient treasures are being smashed

I really had hoped the human race might have grown out of that sort of thing

Yes, ISIS has destroyed thousands of books and manuscripts in Mosul libraries and is now looting and demolishing the ancient Assyrian city of Nimrud. Eradicating a society’s history is tantamount to destroying its memory, which suits the ISIS mindset; nothing prior to the year 622, during which the emigration of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina occurred, has any value to the evil bastards who support that murderous movement. However, ISIS has also slaughtered thousands of innocent people, and I wonder how many of those who are now justifiably condemning this sickening vandalism have taken the same stance over the appalling loss of human life? Aren’t people always more important than inanimate objects?

I’m not quite sure what the point of all this is on a thread about the Elgin Marbles, unless it’s to advocate removing artefacts from their natural homeland to save them from invaders, whether it be ISIS in Syria or the Turks in Greece in the early 19th century. It can hardly be justified as a reason for not returning the Elgin Marbles to Greece now; despite what the right-wing media might tell us, Syriza can’t exactly be equated with ISIS!

Syriza finance minister Yanis Varoufakis might be wondering how much Greece would need to spend on a careful restoration of the Elgin Marbles to their original setting in the Akropolis.

Those who know best about the value of the Elgin Marbles would say that they have been remarkably well cared for; the purpose of preserving them has nothing to do with Athenian Democracy or Greek monetary problems - they are safer where they are than where they would be if returned to Greece. It is possible that had they remained there they would be crumbling now. Before pronouncing philosophically, perhaps one should consult archaeologists.

Hmm. Are you implying that it might be okay to steal something as long as you look after it better than the rightful owner?

This issue matters a lot to many Greeks, and I believe that the best solution would be joint curatorship of the sculptures in a branch of the British Museum within sight of the Parthenon.

Are you implying that it might be okay to steal something as long as you look after it better than the rightful owner?

I suppose there are circumstances where such an action is correct. If we move from the Platonic theoretical into practicalities, it is a question of something from antiquity being preserved for future generations who might, in fact, have no regard for concepts such as Greece , Afghanistan, America or Asia. In history there were many conquests in the course of which goods were taken. It would be silly to attempt to ask Brennus, for instance, to return the Roman gold he stole. It was silly of Pope John Paul 11 to apologise for the crusades; at that period in history there was some justification for them but we who are alive centuries on have no right to make apologies. A similar apology might have been expected from those who stormed the Middle East and Asia to make forcible conversions to Islam. If we want to re-write history then we must depose our rather efficient sovereign and return a Stuart heir.

But if we move away from reality into moral philosophy then it's a good debate. Best wishes.

Everything in the British Museum, including the Elgin Marbles, can be seen on a computer screen near you - wherever you are, including Greece.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/search.aspx?searchText=elgin+marbles

You are invariably right, often wrong.

May I say, in passing, that the image with which you challenge us creates in me feelings of such enormous compassion that I am constantly moving to my wallet by way of response. I hope you are eating well.

Thank you marcolucco for your kind concern. Although my resources don't quite reach to a TW10 postcode, I haven't needed recourse to the bins behind Sainsbury's for nourishment, though of course we have yet to receive Gideon Osborne's early Christmas blessings, so I might then have to let the under-butler go.

Thank you, often wrong, for the thoughtful message regarding your welfare; I am considerably relieved that, as yet, you are not foraging in food bins. I can now worry about the Elgin Marbles without fretting in your direction. So pleased.

( I suspect you are a fan of Downton Abbey. )

(We have a personal messaging system for members wishing to chat to each other. Thanks.)

Returning the Elgin Marbles to Greece might gain us a few more votes in the Eurovision Song Contest, though I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing….  

These are some of the usual arguments for returning the sculptures:-

- Thomas Bruce, the British ambassador in Istanbul in 1801, did not have the legal right to remove them from the Parthenon. Officially, Elgin obtained a ‘firman’ from the Ottoman authorities, but when Parliament asked to examine it, he couldn’t submit it.

- Precedent: Los Angeles, Heidelberg University and the Vatican have all returned artefacts to Greece.

- If the sculptures were exhibited in the new Acropolis Museum, visitors could appreciate them in their original environment, in sight of the Parthenon and close to other ancient Athenian sites.

- According to a poll conducted in Britain by Ipsos-Mori in 2008, 69% of those asked were in favour of returning the sculptures, 13% were against. Another poll, for ‘The Guardian’ in February 2014, suggested that 88% of British people (after hearing a statement from George Clooney on the subject) support the return of the sculptures to Greece.

http://www.elginism.com/new-acropolis-museum/eight-reasons-why-the-elgin-marbles-should-be-returned-to-greece/20090225/1754/

http://www.elginism.com/elgin-marbles/guardian-poll-shows-17-every-20-people-support-return-marbles/20140217/7281/

P.S. If you want issues that tend to be more philosophical, this board might be of interest:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/f32-general-political-and-economic-issues

If George Clooney wants the Elgin Marbles returned there is no more to say. The healthy economy that is modern Greece will certainly look after them better than, say, ISIS.

As for mister man-in-the-street being asked for an opinion..... why not have him perform heart surgery?

safe·keeping.
[ˌsāfˈkēpiNG]  NOUN
1.preservation in a safe place:
"she'd put her wedding ring in her purse for safekeeping"
Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press


Discussion about The Elgin Marbles would not be taking place at all had they been left where they were in Turkish-occupied Greece during expansion of the Ottoman Empire.

Contemporary British society hasn't chosen to rebuild Coventry Cathedral and many other "heritage" buildings that were lost during WW2.

I bet there is some tenuous connection between a wedding ring, Coventry Cathedral and the Elgin Marbles but I just can't see it. I will keep trying.

As for mister man-in-the-street being asked for an opinion..... why not have him perform heart surgery?

That sounds like both a logical fallacy and an argument against democracy. Surely there’s a world of difference between having a life-saving skill and holding an opinion on whether or not stolen goods should be returned to their owners?