Was God creating Satan a good idea?

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Was God creating Satan a good idea?

Eden and creation seemed to be going along quite well for God and man until Satan was cast into Eden by God. God would have been in charge of who he allowed into the Garden of Eden. After all, God would have kept a firm control of who entered his new day care so as to insure the wellbeing of Adam and Eve.

Being all knowing, God already knew that Satan, with God’s own power of deception, would successfully tempt Eve to eat of the tree of all possible knowledge.

It almost seems as if God wanted us to and planned for us to fail. Perhaps that is why the Church called Adams sin a happy fault and necessary sin.

Christian dogma, the opposite of Jewish dogma, has Satan as God’s nemesis and arch rival for the souls of mankind. God’s foreknowledge would have told him that Satan would cause him to condemn the vast majority of his beloved souls to hell and death and thus play into Satan’s hands. This to me seems like God creating a huge amount of grief for himself and mankind, unless God truly wanted man to fail, --- and sin was a happy fault and necessary sin as the Church says.

Did Adam and Eve actually do what God really wanted them to do, and was God creating Satan a good idea?

We are told by the Church and scriptures to emulate God.

Should all parents do as God did and create a situation of failure for their children so as to insure that they too have the happy fault and necessary sin that makes them fail?

Why was it important for God to insure that we failed?

Regards
DL

As far as I am concerned the only mistake God has ever made ( one can argue of course that a perfect being cannot make a mistake) was in giving free will to all his creations.

JP Cusick wrote:We must hold firm that everything God does is right and righteous.

We can not second guess God, but we must always second guess our own doubts, and our own interpretations.
it.

You are second guessing God the moment you try to say anything about God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2+++

If you are to hold to that and not take the intelligent route, then tell us what is good about God creating Satan and since God condemned Satan to hell, why would God reward a good Satan with hell?

Further, you indicated some of Genesis to be a metaphor. Is Jesus and Yahweh also metaphors?
If not, why not?

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:As far as I am concerned the only mistake God has ever made ( one can argue of course that a perfect being cannot make a mistake) was in giving free will to all his creations.

We do not have the free will to not sin. If we could, then we would have some examples.

Regards
DL

Hi Greatest I am,
There are thousands of examples where humans can either do or not do and have decided not to do.

Because we have all decided for one reason or another to sin, does not change the fact that we could not have done so if we had chosen not to do so.

regsrds.

Greatest I am wrote:
You are second guessing God the moment you try to say anything about God.  

Not true.

And it is a ridiculous claim too.

Greatest I am wrote:
If you are to hold to that and not take the intelligent route,

To believe that God is always right and righteous is a matter of faith and belief, but it is also a matter of the given information = "God is Love".

It is not meant to be the intelligent route, and certainly not the intelligence of this world or of the intelligence from mankind.

Having faith and belief are a different kind of intelligence.

As like Albert Einstein knew that God was the CREATOR of the universe, but when Einstein would say that then the so called intelligent people used Einstein words to empower their superstitious doctrines and so Einstein was forced to change his terminology away from religion.

Greatest I am wrote:
... then tell us what is good about God creating Satan and since God condemned Satan to hell, why would God reward a good Satan with hell?

I declare all of that as untrue and as false doctrine.

The problem is that you are (you are) declaring that as true and as doctrine.

The word "hell" only meant the burial or grave for dead bodies, and Hades was the Greek God of the underworld, and the Gospel text was not really talking about the Greek religion.

Mainstream orthodox Christianity makes that mistaken claim - and apparently so do you - but the scriptures do not and neither do I.

If you just want to claim that mainstream Christianity is wrong - then yes they are - but they have made you wrong too by you adhering to their wrong doctrines.

My view remains that everyone gets saved and even Satan the Devil gets saved and there is no such place as a Hell.

The "fire" in the Bible is talking about a fire that purifies and cleans and causes SALVATION = see 1 Corinthians 3:15

Greatest I am wrote:
Further, you indicated some of Genesis to be a metaphor. Is Jesus and Yahweh also metaphors?
If not, why not?  

Yes, they do have a lot of metaphor meaning, and they do have far deeper meaning then Christianity gives to those names.

In the ancient times people often talked in metaphor, and the original human language was saturated with metaphors, and so was the old written language.

The English word "God" is not accurate and it too is a misleading word / name.

The word Yahweh only means male-creator, and thereby interpreted as Father-God.

Even deeper is = "Yahweh Elohim" = which translates to = Father of the Gods (plural).

Greatest I am wrote:We do not have the free will to not sin. If we could, then we would have some examples.  

Of course any person can chose not to sin.

But I suspect you mean in extreme as that no person can be PERFECT as in not sinning perfectly which is very hard to do.

The fact is that any person can do it (not sin) perfectly for a while, and the challenge is in how long can we maintain it.

polyglide wrote:Hi Greatest I am,
                       There are thousands of examples where humans can either do or not do and have decided not to do.

                        Because we have all decided for one reason or another to sin, does not change the fact that we could not have done so if we had chosen not to do so.

                                            regsrds.

This is a lie according to scriptures that say we are all born sinners.

Without al least one example, your view is a made up lie.

Regards
DL

JP Cusick wrote:[

The fact is that any person can do it (not sin) perfectly for a while, and the challenge is in how long can we maintain it.

So if we cannot help but sin, as you indicate, then for a God to punish us for being as created would be quite wrong.

As to your overall thinking of religio9nsd and God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Your own bible says that we cannot know anything of God with any kind of certainty.

To call God Love is to insult love as the Love you worship is a baby torturer and murderer.

You go ahead and adore that vile demiurge if you like. Moral men will not.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
This is a lie according to scriptures that say we are all born sinners.

The scriptures really do not say those words as you claim, of course many Christians do interpret parts of the Bible in those words but the scriptures do not say that.

Therefore you are claiming to quote scriptures when you are just quoting Christians.

So yes you have been fooled or misled by Christians but not by the scriptures as you claim. FYI.

My own understanding is that every person is born (and conceived) as innocent and the sins of the parents are not transferred to their children, BUT (but) the children do start getting brainwashed into the sinning starting the day they are born.

Greatest I am wrote:
So if we cannot help but sin, as you indicate, then for a God to punish us for being as created would be quite wrong.  

We punish our self by our sins.

The sin and the sinning have the punishment attached.

As like if we lie then we become liars, if we steal then we become a thief, and if we chose ignorance then we live ignorant, and those are very fast and harsh punishments which we bring onto our self.

Do right and become righteous, seek the truth and ye shall find it, Galatians 6:7-8.

Greatest I am wrote:
As to your overall thinking of religion and God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2  

I like Karen Armstrong - she is not perfect but she is okay.

She does not represent my overall thinking of religion and God.

Greatest I am wrote:
Your own bible says that we cannot know anything of God with any kind of certainty.  

My Bible does not say that.

My Bible says that if a person seeks after the truth then they will find it.

For my self the various worldwide scriptures have answered more to me then I ever dreamed of seeking or of asking.

Greatest I am wrote:
To call God Love is to insult love as the Love you worship is a baby torturer and murderer.

You go ahead and adore that vile demiurge if you like. Moral men will not.  

The claim that God is a baby torturer and murderer and vile - are not true.

You are rejecting the true God based on a bunch of false information.

And most people have no real comprehension as to whatever is really meant by "Love" and the English dictionary is not accurate.

Greatest I am,

I can choose to do thousands of things, for example attempt to swim the channel, or not do, the fact that mankind finds it difficult to abstain from wrong doing is because of choice and circumstances, had mankind been satisfied with the ideal world God provided and taken note of his advice, we would not have any problems.

As I have stated previously, the reality is that God gave his creations 'Free Will' and all sin has been as a result of some using it for all the wrong purposes.

Otherwise all creation would be robotic, and to a certain extent much of life other than mankind is.

JP Cusick wrote:

You are rejecting the true God based on a bunch of false information.

And most people have no real comprehension as to whatever is really meant by "Love" and the English dictionary is not accurate.

We have yet to determine what is accurate. Nice that you have scrapped the scriptures and the dictionary.

That makes the God you have invented so much harder to see.

Strange how you can fathom an unfathomable God.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

I can choose to do thousands of things, for example attempt to swim the channel, or not do, the fact that mankind finds it difficult to abstain from wrong doing is because of choice and circumstances, had mankind been satisfied with the ideal world God provided and taken note of his advice, we would not have any problems.

As I have stated previously, the reality is that God gave his creations 'Free Will' and all sin has been as a result of some using it for all the wrong purposes.

Otherwise all creation would be robotic, and to a certain extent much of life other than mankind is.

So you are saying that our ability to sin is a gift from God.

Strange then that he condemns and punishes us for using that gift.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am,

Come along now, I said God gave us choice, which is an entirely different mattter.

The gift from God is the fact that we had the choice to enjoy all that he provided, in the manner he advised, God did not force anyone to sin in the first instance, man chose to.

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

Come along now, I said God gave us choice, which is an entirely different mattter.

The gift from God is the fact that we had the choice to enjoy all that he provided, in the manner he advised, God did not force anyone to sin in the first instance, man chose to.

That is a lie. Here is proof of that fact.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Further, if God had not wanted Eve to be deceived and sin, he would not have put Satan in Eden to insure that Eve was deceived.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
We have yet to determine what is accurate.

That was my point when I declared the dictionary as not accurate about some things.

The dictionary even defines "God" and the dictionary is not accurate in that word either.

Greatest I am wrote:
Nice that you have scrapped the scriptures and the dictionary.

You say that - not I.

But then I guess that is just how you interpret what I said.  

Greatest I am wrote:
That makes the God you have invented so much harder to see.  

Harder for you to see - but you tell that you see nothing anyway.

Greatest I am wrote:
Strange how you can fathom an unfathomable God.  

You call God unfathomable - not I.

But I agree that it is a strange reality.

All scholars and sages have said that God cannot be known.

Show your first hand information and tell us how you came by it.

No quoting what some other person has said mow.

Regards
DL

Geatest I am,

I cannot realy unrdetstand in what sense you mean God cannot be known.

I know he is a reality so far as I am concerned.

I cannot shake hands with him because I do not know what actual form he takes nor been in a position to meet him directly, so in that respect I agree we do not know everything about God, so I agree God cannot be known completely, this is entirely different to acceptimg that God exists.

Then my other post to you shows what you must do to show your faith. Get to it or admit you live in a fantasy world.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:All scholars and sages have said that God cannot be known.

Show your first hand information and tell us how you came by it.

No quoting what some other person has said mow.  

You are quoting other people when you say that = "All scholars and sages have said that God cannot be known."

I do not find that to be accurate, as there are so many Scholars and Sages that it is hard to find any in full agreement about anything, and there are millions of Scholars and Sages who preach and teach about knowing God.

What I am giving is my own interpretation and my own understanding and my own revelations because I view myself as a rightful and competent Scholar and Sage.

What I do not see and what I would like to see is for you to give your own opinions and your own beliefs and your own research and then you too can speak for your self just as I speak for my self.

I do not need some other Scholar or Sage to tell me about God as I am quite capable of doing that by my self, and so are you and so is every person capable and competent enough to learn the truths about God and about humanity, and yes I do like other Scholars and Sages but none of them rule over me, and none overrule my own conscience.

An example of what I preach outside of what has been said in this thread can be seen HERE.


-------------

Greatest I am wrote:That is a lie. Here is proof of that fact.

People having different beliefs does not make any of it into a lie.

Some people are wrong or mistaken or misguided or whatever - but it does not make it into a lie.

Greatest I am wrote:
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Further, if God had not wanted Eve to be deceived and sin, he would not have put Satan in Eden to insure that Eve was deceived.

My understanding of this is very human.

As like we have children who do wrong, and we can see them doing wrong or making mistakes and our own children will not listen and will not believe or obey when we tell them not to do it, and so the children do things that we their parents do not want them to do.

As like a child (of any age) wants to start smoking cigarettes, and we tell the child that the smoking will hurt them and it will kill them but the child does it anyway - so later we did not make them sick and we did not kill them for the smoking, but we did prophesy beforehand and our cursing did come true.  

Adam and Eve were told what to do and what not to do and they just did wrong anyway - as like immature children often do.

It is wrong to blame the parents or the Father God for the willful actions of their children.

JP Cusick wrote:[
My understanding of this is very human.

It is not normal or human for a parent to insure their children fail so that they can punish them.
It is also not normal or human for a parent to deny their children knowledge of everything.

That is what God did in Eden by placing the great tempter there and denying A & E knowledge.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
It is not normal or human for a parent to insure their children fail so that they can punish them.
It is also not normal or human for a parent to deny their children knowledge of everything.

That is what God did in Eden by placing the great tempter there and denying A & E knowledge.

That is how you interpret the story, but the Bible does not say what you are declaring here.

The story of Adan and Eve is a metaphor to relay important information to humanity for anyone who dares to find out such things.

And it is very wrong to view God as punishing A&E or punishing humanity because of that poisoned fruit.

The taking of the poisoned fruit is what punishes humanity, just as the cigarettes punish those who smoke them.

What it really says in the Garden of Eden story is that God was sad and unhappy that His children had taken the poison fruit, and that God told them of the horrible repercussions of their actions, and it continued on ever after and still going onward now and today.

The tempter or the temptation is always here and there and that is a reality and not a trick or trap created by God.

When God tells us about the cursing then it is a lamentation in that God is sad and unhappy about what His children have done to their self, and it is our own human folly that created the need for a Savior and for a salvation from the consequences of our own actions, see here = Genesis 3:14-19, and even that serpent was punished by its own action.

Mankind was not intended to work by the sweat of the brow, and THAT was a dysfunction which was done against the will of God.

Anyone really can reverse this reality by stop feeding off that same poisoned knowledge but humans are mostly just stubborn rebellious children.

Greatest I am,

If you were to be converted into believing that what the Bible promises was correct, then I can assure you, you would be bombarded with all kinds of situations and events put forward by Satan and his croud until you reverted to the stage you are now in.

Satan feels he already has you, and there is no need for him to bother until such times as you see the light.

The more people like yourself gives Satan more time to attempt to distroy the belief of Christians, and he provides the responses you are so adept at using for this motive.

I do not use other peoples opinions, I base mine on all I have both heard, read and experienced, I may agree with some, as I do with all real Christians, or totally disargee, as I do with your outlook on life but everything is based on the above.

polyglide wrote:Eve had a choice, just as you have a choice wether you behave in an appropriate manner, or deviate into childish behaviour.

You just cannot understand the fact that Satan was the one who tempted Eve and not God.

Had God stopped Eve from wrong doing then Satan could have called foul.

God did not put Satan anywhere, he was a free agent, after being created.

But Eve did not have a choice. At this stage she did not know 'good from evil'. Realisation comes later.

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,
                   
If you were to be converted into believing that what the Bible promises was correct, then I can assure you, you would be bombarded with all kinds of situations and events put forward by Satan and his croud until you reverted to the stage you are now in.

Satan feels he already has you, and there is no need for him to bother until such times as you see the light.

The more people like yourself gives Satan more time to attempt to distroy the belief of Christians, and he provides the responses you are so adept at using for this motive.

I do not use other peoples opinions, I base mine on all I have both heard, read and experienced, I may agree with some, as I do with all real Christians, or totally disargee, as I do with your outlook on life but everything is based on the above.

Satan is Christianity's adaptation of the Jewish HaSatan - Gods messenger/helper. Satan is not an enemy of God. He is chosen to test people's faith. Job past the Test. Jesus temptation was in accordance with Jewish belief, and Jesus, the Jewish preacher, past the test.

It is all in how one view matters regarding CHristianity.

As far as I am concerned Satan tempted Eve by deception in that he was aware of right from wrong and tempted Eve to go against God's wishes and advice, promising that God had deceived both Adam and Eve, and that he was a better alternative.

Since which time Stan has attempted to turn everyone against God using every manner of temptation, and providing all circumstances that has resulted in the multitude of sins now available to those still deceived.

God is not using Satan for anything, Satan has challenged God and the result of doing so is not far off.

Regards.

polyglide wrote:It is all in how one view matters regarding CHristianity.

As far as I am concerned Satan tempted Eve by deception in that he was aware of right from wrong and tempted Eve to go against God's wishes and advice, promising that God had deceived both Adam and Eve, and that he was a better alternative.

Since which time Stan has attempted to turn everyone against God using every manner of temptation, and providing all circumstances that has resulted in the multitude of sins now available to those still deceived.

God is not using Satan for anything, Satan has challenged God and the result of doing so is not far off.

                                                      Regards.

Only in Chrisitanity does HaSatan become an enemy of God. In fact, Christianity is formed from misinterpreted Tanakh scriptures. Jesus was a very wise Jewish teacher - turned divine by the early church. He came to the Jews - he said so himself, he preached to the Jews, he refused to let the disciples minister to Gentiles. He was crucified because he upset the Jewish hierarchy. The Nativity stories are a mass of contradictions which do not fit either Jewish or Roman laws. The arrest and trial of Jesus does not fit in with Jewish ritual and ways. No-one knows exactly when Jesus was crucified because we don't know when he was born. Neither do we know when Passover was that week.
Jesus was a Jew and came to the Jews. The rest is down to the disciples writing their stories of Jesus some 3-6 decades later. In which time they managed to remember, verbatim, conversations Jesus had with them, and conversations he had with the devil in the wilderness - alone?

I am only interested in Cristianity, as the Bible says, there will be all kinds of falsehoods to fool the unwarey.

You should be aware that God inspired the writing of the Bible contents, the scribes being entrusted to put forward the word of God.

You either accept this and accept Christianity or you do not, and that is where faith comes in.

polyglide wrote:I am only interested in Cristianity, as the Bible says, there will be all kinds of falsehoods to fool the unwarey.

You should be aware that God inspired the writing of the Bible contents, the scribes being entrusted to put forward the word of God.

You either accept this and accept Christianity or you do not, and that is where faith comes in.

But Christianity derives its authority, wrongly, from the Tanakh. There is no mention of Jesus in the Tanakh - only quotes taken out of context from it. Quotes from the Tanakh taken by Christianity can all be referenced to the Jews. The favourite - Isaiah 53 - can easily be shown to be God's son 'Israel'. It is the 4th of the Servant Songs in Isaiah that refers to Israel - Gods 'Son'.

Falsehoods? Jewish beliefs go back centuries before Christianity was even thought of. Both Christianity and Islam have used the Tanakh to create their own beliefs. And others are using Christianity to do the same.

Of course you're only interested in Christianity because of what you've accepted. Buddhists do the same. Hindus do and other beliefs do. They are just as adamant as you.

All religion stems from the time of facing the unknown. When there were no known explanations, so one had to be found. When UG, the caveman, stepped out of his cave and was hit by an avalanche of snow. He knew nothing of gravity and little about snow and wondered what/who/why? 30,000 year old cave paintings show us how man was trying to understand things.

I believe there have been many stages of life created by God, and this leads to a lot of confusion.

I believe God took the final stages when he created the kind of human we now have.

I believe he made known to the people prior to the birth of Jesus all that was necessary for them to have a perfect life.

Having taken no regard to his advice and taken up with Satan God finally offered us a way forward through the birth of Jesus.

I agree that all the history prior to the birth of Jesus can be looked at in many different ways, and at times appears disputable as to the actual facts.

The fact is mankinds existance cannot have been by chance.

polyglide wrote:The fact is mankinds existance cannot have been by chance.  

Can you evidence this claim please? How many 'OTHER' examples of human evolution did you use to test your hypothesis against?

JP Cusick wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
It is not normal or human for a parent to insure their children fail so that they can punish them.
It is also not normal or human for a parent to deny their children knowledge of everything.

That is what God did in Eden by placing the great tempter there and denying A & E knowledge.

That is how you interpret the story, but the Bible does not say what you are declaring here.

The story of Adan and Eve is a metaphor to relay important information to humanity for anyone who dares to find out such things.

And it is very wrong to view God as punishing A&E or punishing humanity because of that poisoned fruit.

The taking of the poisoned fruit is what punishes humanity, just as the cigarettes punish those who smoke them.

What it really says in the Garden of Eden story is that God was sad and unhappy that His children had taken the poison fruit, and that God told them of the horrible repercussions of their actions, and it continued on ever after and still going onward now and today.

The tempter or the temptation is always here and there and that is a reality and not a trick or trap created by God.

When God tells us about the cursing then it is a lamentation in that God is sad and unhappy about what His children have done to their self, and it is our own human folly that created the need for a Savior and for a salvation from the consequences of our own actions, see here = Genesis 3:14-19, and even that serpent was punished by its own action.

Mankind was not intended to work by the sweat of the brow, and THAT was a dysfunction which was done against the will of God.

Anyone really can reverse this reality by stop feeding off that same poisoned knowledge but humans are mostly just stubborn rebellious children.

You ignored what God did in forcing Eve to be deceived by God putting Satan in the garden.

The poisoned fruit you are talking of is the knowledge of everything as everything is subject to good or evil.

It the knowledge of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is poison as you keep stating, why would God want to poison us with the knowledge that he himself in Genesis 3 says that it is required to make us as Gods?

Seems that your God has been poisoned by knowledge and that is why he is described accurately by Dawkins.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Care to try to refute any of those true labels Yahweh the Christian vile demiurge?

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:

Greatest I am,
                   
If you were to be converted into believing that what the Bible promises was correct,

All you care about is the promise that is made to you in scriptures by a satanic genocidal son murdering God.

Tell us please, who is more likely to use genocide and demand his own son be sacrificed to himself.

Satan or God?

Satan would and that is your God, if you answered that question from a moral POV.

Satan feels he already has you,

Let's see who she has firmly in hand when you give your answer.

Regards
DL

trevorw2539 wrote:[Jesus temptation was in accordance with Jewish belief, and Jesus, the Jewish preacher, past the test.

He did if you are very selective in what you accept came from Jesus.

The usual scriptures that Christians quote show clearly that Jesus was not really preaching as moral theology, after all, it did not include equality for women.

Check how anti-love and anti-justice Jesus' no-divorce law was for just one example.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:

As far as I am concerned Satan tempted Eve by deception

That deception is seem by most as just telling Eve the facts and those facts had more information than what God gave A & E. I think God lied by omission more than the talking serpent did. Not that any of these characters ever existed.

Satan is said to have been given, by God, the power to deceive the whole world. Would that include Eve and Adam?

And since God cast Satan onto Earth and into Eden, does that not look like a set up?

If not, why did God, who is omnipresent, not protect Eve when the talking serpent tempted her?

Regards
DL

If this specific story were pitched to a TV programme producer today, would it make to our screens? Or only after a thorough plot-revision?

oftenwrong wrote:If this specific story were pitched to a TV programme producer today, would it make to our screens?  Or only after a thorough plot-revision?

Delusional religionists would not care as they have already lost their thinking ability to supernatural and fantasy beliefs.

Regards
DL