Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

by **Ivan** Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.

by skwalker1964 Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:27 pm

[quote="bobby"][color=blue]Another point IMHO is that if an illegal immigrant is prepared to hang under a Lorry or any other means of transport to get here for no other reason than they want some of what we have and they don’t have.

If they are prepared to do that in order to get here, does that not tend to support the idea that they are desperate to escape an unbearable situation? And if you or I faced such a situation, wouldn't we want to escape it? There but for the grace of God go we, and while recognising the need for some control over the situation, we should keep a very humble attitude about it and stretch our reserves of hospitality and human kindness to the utmost to help.

If the indigenous population all earned a decent wage, more money would be paid to the exchequer to pay for the vital services, which then wouldn’t be under the pressures they are now. Its not always about nationalities, but also and more likely IMO about numbers.

Which is exactly why the Tories - and Farage - make noise about immigration but have no intention of really doing anything about it. Mass immigration - or anything else which results in a surplus labour force - forces down wages and the 'wealth creators' rake it in even more. Regular bank of England reports and papers by right-wing think tanks say it quite openly.

by oftenwrong Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:47 pm

A glance at the traditional way in which British Agriculture functions is sufficient to understand how immigrants put food on the supermarket shelf.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/britag3.html

by skwalker1964 Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:12 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Woman and daughter from East Europe receive £16000 p.y. in benefits. She will not work as 'we have a good life here'. This is all too familiar to most of us.

The OAP got a basic £102 pw pension last year if they had full points. Made up by means tested benefits to a higher figure - various. This is to go to a basic £144 pw in 2015. Undoubtedly other benefits will be reduced.

£16000 v £7250.

We can't even give our own people to a 'living' standard after a lifetime of working for the country, yet allow others to benefit at our expence.

Immigration. Bah Humbug.

You were fooled, Trevor:

http://politicsuk.eu/archives/14347

The ‘REAL’ NATALIJA BELOVA, THE SUN EXCLUSIVE
Posted: 1:03 PM, January 20, 2013 by Lewis Croden

The Sun Posted a story ”MIGRANT mum thanked the UK yesterday for letting her claim £14,500 a year in benefits”.

The article that the sun posted was clearly a propaganda story and resembles an half-witted ill thought out article with out of context facts that you would find on the BNP’s website.

Puk can reveal the woman is an actor which does bring into question the validity of the article, our users had already questioned the suns agenda and after some research it appears that there is more to her than it seems.

We wonder if this story has anything to do with David Cameron’s anticipated EU Speech.

Follow the link to see various photos from the portfolio of the actress in question. Typical rabble-rousing by the Sun, unfortunately.

by trevorw2539 Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:32 pm

Skywalker 1964. Apart from the amount it sems to be the same story. Fair enough. Most of us at floor level know this is happening on a daily basis by personal experience.

Further article

'We're clueless'

MINISTERS have admitted they have no idea how much Labour’s open door immigration policy has cost Britain.

Ed Miliband
Concession ... Ed Miliband

Every Whitehall department was asked to work out the bill for the net influx of 3.2 million people during Labour’s 13 years in office.

But none could put a figure on the extra burden.

Ministers found stats were simply not collected for estimates to be made. The revelation alarmed campaigners demanding systems be put in place before restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians coming to Britain are lifted at the end of the year.

Tory MP Priti Patel said: “It’s scandalous that the last Labour government made no assessment of costs caused by inward migration.”

Labour leader Ed Miliband has admitted immigration was one reason voters lost faith in his party.

This applies to both parties.

I see friends/families struggling day by day, both working on low wages, to make ends meet. I see single, through no fault of their own, parents, having nothing to spare after the essentials are bought. Many of us have to think very carefully between replacing that worn out washing machine or buying more electricity.

'Free food' stores abound and are lifesavers to many.

by skwalker1964 Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:26 am

trevorw2539 wrote:Further article

MINISTERS have admitted they have no idea how much Labour’s open door immigration policy has cost Britain.
Every Whitehall department was asked to work out the bill for the net influx of 3.2 million people during Labour’s 13 years in office.

But none could put a figure on the extra burden.

Is it necessarily even definitely a cost? Immigrants arrive, work (often in jobs that the local population doesn't much wish to do); they live in houses often with double digits of tenants to minimise accommodation cost, pay taxes, spend in local shops, and send some cash back home. Overall, I suspect immigration boosts the economy, providing more consumers for local shops and businesses.

Ministers found stats were simply not collected for estimates to be made. The revelation alarmed campaigners demanding systems be put in place before restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians coming to Britain are lifted at the end of the year.

That seems entirely reasonable - as long as the 'systems' take proper account of all the factors involved, contribution as well as cost.

Tory MP Priti Patel said: “It’s scandalous that the last Labour government made no assessment of costs caused by inward migration.”

Priti Patel is a joke, and has no more serious desire of stemming immigration than I do of being pope. She is co-author of a book condemning British workers - against all the facts - as being lazy and unproductive, and is (I believe) in favour of ending the minimum wage so that we can be 'competitive'. See http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/tory-rising-stars-and-lazy-workers-the-ignorance-shamelessness-of-the-tory-right/ - here's an excerpt, including a quotation from the book (with the laughable title of 'Britannia Unchained'):

‘Once [Britons] enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor‘. This is demonstrably untrue – Britons work the longest hours in Europe, retire later than people in most other European countries, especially as it rises to 68, and have the fewest national holidays and the lowest statutory leave in the European Union. But hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good bit of demonisation, eh?

I see friends/families struggling day by day, both working on low wages, to make ends meet. I see single, through no fault of their own, parents, having nothing to spare after the essentials are bought. Many of us have to think very carefully between replacing that worn out washing machine or buying more electricity.

'Free food' stores abound and are lifesavers to many.

I help a little with the local Foodbank, so I'm aware of what many people face. Immigrants are not to blame - the neoliberal system that the Tories want to extend and reinforce is.

by oftenwrong Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:05 am

All the evidence is that Britain is a wealthy place, easily falling within the top twenty places on Earth. There IS enough to go round, provided the Rich don't hog everything for themselves.

Time for the majority to assert themselves....

by boatlady Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:07 am

Steve
Thanks for that.
I went to bed last night feeling bad about the way that discussion was going, but with no idea of how to marshall cogent arguments, to achieve a more balanced argument.
I am so inclined to agree with you, especially the point about boosting the economy.
Where I live, there's a large immigrant population, mostly South Indian and Eastern European, and a large selection of small local busineesses, providing work and keeping money in the local economy - often providing interest free creditfor household essentials like milk and bread.
I feel safer on the streets, often popping out late at night to pick up a bottle of milk or some goodies - there's always people around, and I don't fear being the victim of violence.
All in all, it's a much friendlier neighbourhood than the pretty little village where I lived previously, where doors were kept locked, and I didn't venture out after dark.
The current problems we're seeing are in my view due to some very inhumane policies being enacted by this government, and not at all due to an influx of people who speak a different language.
OW you're so right - this is still a rich country and there is enough to go round, if only people will be happy with enough and not want obscene amounts of everything.

by skwalker1964 Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:42 am

boatlady wrote:Steve
Thanks for that.

Where I live, there's a large immigrant population, mostly South Indian and Eastern European, and a large selection of small local busineesses, providing work and keeping money in the local economy - often providing interest free creditfor household essentials like milk and bread.

Yes, credit etc is a great point. Sounds much like it was 40 years ago when I was a kid - if your mother sent you for milk and you'd forgotten your money or didn't have any, the shopkeeper would just tell you to pop back with it later, or drop it in next time. We'd largely lost that from British culture since the whole 'greed is good, dog eat dog' corruption - but many immigrants (I find particularly the Asian ones) still have that community ethos.

My next door neighbours, if they know my wife is on a late or night shift at the hospital, frequently bring me food because they worry I can't cook for myself. I'm blessed with very good neighbours of all colours, but my Pakistani friends are a particular blessing.

The current problems we're seeing are in my view due to some very inhumane policies being enacted by this government, and not at all due to an influx of people who speak a different language.
OW you're so right - this is still a rich country and there is enough to go round, if only people will be happy with enough and not want obscene amounts of everything.

Indeed - to both comments!

by trevorw2539 Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:22 pm

I find the above posts interesting.

Personally I lived, in the past, in an area with a large immigrant population. Owing to family circumstances I had to give up work for a short time to look after our 2 small children. In those days we collected any benefits from the Post Office. Now I don't know the circumstances of the immigrant (mainly Indian) families, but I do know their benefits amounts were far in excess of mine. After being mugged and then catching someone breaking into my car, neither were English, we moved. Perhaps I was unfortunate and had bad experiences.

I would love to see a multicultural society as this is the only way I believe that humanity itself will survive. But it cannot happen now. Look at the world around. Country after country is divided within its borders by cultures, religions and tribal 'disagreements'. None are prepared to give up 'their' way of life and integrate. We, the US, and other countries are open to immigration. But do we have integration. Many of our big cities have areas populated by immigrants. So it is in the US. So it is in European cities.
Admitted this is often through the indigenous population moving out of areas 'taken over' by immigrants because of 'alien' habits.

As regards Eastern European surely it is better to invest in these countries to help them improve themselves rather than give them benefits which most will claim anyway. We don't have enough jobs in this country and when they do work money is sent home.
We send money to countries who do not need, or waste it. Divert this.

One thing that kept this country stable in the past was the family unit. Families lived closed by. They helped each other. They shared each others lives on an almost daily basis.

One US writer has made a good case for this being the reason for the Balkans Conflict. Not religion, but the defence of the 'family'.

Sure there were wars, but these were between the squabbling aristocracy.

Crikey I'm rambling again. Embarassed

My contribution now closed.

by blueturando Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:07 pm

What would the right-wing do to attract votes if it didn't have tabloid anecdotes to fuel the prejudices of the brainwashed and ignorant?

.

IVAN.....Concerns over the levels of immigration/Migration are concerns for many people and this includes people from the right, the middle and the left, both Tory, Labour and Lib Dem voters (I wont even mention UKIP) High levels of immigration impact on the working class and less well off members of our society more than any other in the UK. It causes problems with jobs, pay, housing, crime, education, health and social services and a drain on council funding.

To say that anyone who has concerns on immigration/migration levels is right wing and racist is firstly untrue and secondly very narrow minded. These acusations are usually the only way the political elite and people with vested interests use to try and shut down the arguments when they are presented with the facts and truths.

I am not going to point the finger at one particular political party as all have been guilty of letting down the indiginous population for many years on this issue and the coalition continue to do so, too afraid to tackle the issue for fear of upsetting the EU apple cart

by Shirina Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:59 pm

What is your story in terms of migration, Shirina? UK first from ? and then to the US, what ages etc?

Skwalker ...

I was born in India - my heritage is mixed. My father is British but with Filippino ethnicity, my mother is Indian. I lived in abject poverty until the age of 6 when I went to the UK with my father. I lived in Milton-Keynes until age 14 when my father and I went to Morocco. Things get REALLY complicated at this point in my life ... let's just say for simplicity that my father converted to conservative Islam while in Morocco and I couldn't stand being with him anymore. After a year, I emancipated myself from him and emigrated to the US and lived with foster parents from age 15 to 18 during which time I obtained US citizenship. I've been here ever since, but I moved around a lot here in the States.

by Red Rackham Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:51 pm

That's some life, so far. Shirina, do you prefere the US to the UK?

by boatlady Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:06 pm

So, did you have family or friends in US? Or if not, how did you get into the country?
At 15, you were a minor - didn't you need an adult to take responsibility for you?

by **Ivan** Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:44 pm

I'm a little concerned about how this thread is developing. The topic was intended to be a general one (which is why it's on this board), not so specific that it focuses on the life history of my co-administrator.

Shirina may or may not choose to answer personal questions (and I hope she'll forgive me if she thinks I'm being over-protective!), but I think it's best if you let people tell you what they want to tell you and leave it at that.

Some months ago on the book review board, I thought it relevant to mention a short but turbulent marriage I had in my younger days which ended up with me in hospital. That provoked some interest and, quite understandably, resulted in questions being asked to elicit more details. I chose not to answer them. Sometimes even well-intentioned concern can make people feel uncomfortable.

by oftenwrong Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:02 pm

That nice young man from the Harry Potter series has graduated to adult films. In the most recent, a biopic, he portrays a gay man (Alan Ginsberg).

At the Premiere, the only questions from the Press were about the few gay scenes in the movie.

It is impossible to measure the tininess of some people's minds.

by boatlady Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:58 pm

Oops - sorry - just curious about the immigration process

by skwalker1964 Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:03 am

Shirina wrote:
I was born in India - my heritage is mixed. My father is British but with Filippino ethnicity, my mother is Indian. I lived in abject poverty until the age of 6 when I went to the UK with my father. I lived in Milton-Keynes until age 14 when my father and I went to Morocco. Things get REALLY complicated at this point in my life ... let's just say for simplicity that my father converted to conservative Islam while in Morocco and I couldn't stand being with him anymore. After a year, I emancipated myself from him and emigrated to the US and lived with foster parents from age 15 to 18 during which time I obtained US citizenship. I've been here ever since, but I moved around a lot here in the States.

Wow - that's quite a life story! Thank you for being prepared to share.

by Shirina Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:16 am

Shirina may or may not choose to answer personal questions (and I hope she'll forgive me if she thinks I'm being over-protective!), but I think it's best if you let people tell you what they want to tell you and leave it at that.

I don't really mind, Ivan, but I appreciate the concern. This thread is about immigration, after all, and I'm an immigrant. Very Happy

If someone asks a question I don't feel comfortable answering, I'll let the questioner know. If it turns into a game of "spin the bottle" and someone asks where I was when I lost my viriginity (or something) then I'll put on the brakes.

lol!

by Shirina Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:24 am

Shirina, do you prefere the US to the UK?

I must admit I do have a certain fondness for America. Despite all the ranting I do about what's going on here, this is still my home, I chose to be here, and I love my country in a patriotic (not nationalistic) way. I watched the inauguration of Obama today (he gave an awesome speech, by the way), and I couldn't help but feel proud as an American and all that this nation has accomplished. I rant about the shortcomings of America in the same way a loving parent would do about a misbehaving child. It's because I'm deeply concerned.

On a personal level, most of my cherished memories took place here, so that leaves me a bit biased toward the US. My childhood in the UK was not all that peachy, but my teenage and college years here in the US were almost supernaturally wonderful. It was the closest thing to Heaven one could expect here on Earth. However, being around so many British posters is drawing me again toward the UK. The kindness, the concern, even, I dare say, the love that so many British posters have shown me over the years has been phenomenal.

by Shirina Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:44 am

So, did you have family or friends in US? Or if not, how did you get into the country?
At 15, you were a minor - didn't you need an adult to take responsibility for you?

There's a foreign exchange student program that allows nations to "swap" students with each other temporarily. These students spend 6 months to a year living in a different country with a host family without having to be a citizen. I signed up for the program and my father was more than eager to push me out the door - he had parties to attend and drinking to do, after all. The family that hosted me in America had hosted a lot of foreign exchange students over the years because they had no children of their own. The first few months were a bit rough because of the loneliness - but after that, I was enthralled with the life I had built here. A loving family, a safe environment, oodles of friends and popularity, tons of adventure. I can't even begin to convey in words how spectacular it was, and I didn't want to leave. I dropped a hint here, a clue there to my host parents, one thing led to another, and they agreed to adopt me as their legal child. It wasn't too hard to convince my father to relinquish his legal authority over me, and, in the most simplest of terms, that's how I managed to get here. It wasn't at all difficult to get US citizenship once my legal parents were American - but there was mountains of paperwork between severing legal ties with my father, the paperwork involved in the host family adopting me, the temporary Visas, and the actual citizenship process.

It all became official in November of my junior year in high school. When the students and staff at my high school found out I was there to stay, they literally cancelled all classes during the latter half of the day and held a party in the gym ... food, music, dancing. It was incredible ... this kind of warmness, acceptance, and comaraderie is why I didn't want to leave in the first place.

This, of course, is a very condensed version of all that happened, but I don't want to bore people with tedious detail. And there is a lot of detail. Rolling Eyes

by boatlady Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:49 am

Not surprised you wanted to stay - heady stuff - thanks for sharing the story

by boatlady Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:15 pm

Just looked on the BNP website (what can I say? There's nothing on TV) and saw this.

'The vast majority of these foreign-born residents are of Third World extraction. According to figures released by the Office for National Statistics, at least eleven percent of all people living in Britain today were born overseas. This figure does not include their second or third generation children.'

Seems horrific and scary, which is of course the effect they're aiming for.

Then I wondered, does it really matter? I'm sure someone cleverer than me can mention all the various ethnic and cultural groups that over the years have shared our island home with us, intermingled with our Celtic forebears (or whatever ethnic group was originally here) and generally become part of the scenery.

Very often, we find people obviously of mixed race to be particularly attractive and intriguing - may this not be because as a species we are hard wired to mix and to blend, rather than to preserve racial integrity?

I'm just thinking aloud here, on an unfrequented thread - it seems to me that immigration, far from being a problem, is a normal part of human life and needs to be accepted and accommodated just like all the other normal human activities, like childbirth, aging, death and all that other good stuff.

Still, what do I know?

by tlttf Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:12 pm

Immigration when sensibly allowed is/should be more than welcomed, our Island has been invaded numerous times and rather than be ruled has managed to change the invaders into Brits, we've absorbed their identities and turned them into Brits. Modern day immigration hasn't been quite the same. We've allowed unfettered immigration that rather than be absorbed has been fighting the low paid for the unskilled jobs, doing them at a cheaper rate (below the minimum) so the indigenous race (the low skilled ones) have nothing but the welfare system left to rely on. The problem with this is the immigrants tend to stay amongst themselves, don't learn the language and don't follow our laws. Yes I know that doesn't include all of them but enough to form ghettos is one too many.

The only people who have gained have been rich that employ them on the cheap, have they lowered prices to reflect the lower wage being paid, or have they banked the money (offshore) in all likelihood. My problem is this was allowed by a so called socialist government that hoodwinked people into believing they were working for the national good whilst destroying the jobs that they knew our uneducated kids (read about labours fine education dumbdown) had to rely on. Are the coalition any better, hard to say at the moment, are they worse, absolutely not.

End of rant!!

by ROB Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:32 pm

The phenomenon known as “racial prejudice” is inherently evil in that practitioners thereof become so blinded by color of skin that they cannot see content of character. When a nation allows racially prejudiced officials to enact immigration laws and policies that are based upon crypto or blatant racial discrimination fueled by crypto or blatant racial prejudice, the national character suffers, and eventually diminishes to such a degree that the nation is not worth preserving. Think of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan and decide if you want your nation to be next.

by oftenwrong Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:44 pm

The phenomenon known as “racial prejudice” is inherently evil.

But emerges in the most unlikely people. Every time we choose to criticise someone from a different Culture for being different - for whatever reason - the prejudice is implicit.

by **Ivan** Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:49 pm

unfettered immigration

tlttf. Posting the same lie on successive days on two different threads doesn’t make it any more true. There has never been “unfettered immigration” in this country; to say so is just to repeat a dirty smear used by racists trying to incite hatred. There have always been regulations about who can or can’t come into this country.

EU nationals do have the automatic right to live here (as we have the right to live in any EU country), but people from the rest of the world don't. In 2004 the EU expanded considerably, so under EU rules more people were likely to come and live in what was then a thriving country under Labour.

don't follow our laws

Everyone in this country has to “follow our laws”, although Tory toffs, especially the foxhunting fraternity, seem to think they’re exempt. To say that immigrants don’t abide by the law of the land is just another inflammatory lie. If Moslems agree to settle disputes in a Sharia court and abide by its decisions, they’re not hurting anyone else. Any decisions reached are not legally binding, and any Moslem who doesn’t want to use, or accept the ruling of, a Sharia court, cannot be forced to do so. That’s because everyone has to “follow our laws”, just as posters on this forum are required to stick to the rules, one of which is not to post the same message more than once.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

by tlttf Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:04 pm

I can only assume roc isn't referring to my post (no idea as to whose). Ivan by unfettered immigration I mean uncontrolled, disregard the EU I'm specifically talking about from outside the EU not those from within. i haven't mentioned Moslems (nor any race) simply the unskilled immigrants given free entrance, specifically those that were allowed to compete with the indigenous low skilled worker. I haven't mentioned "Sharia Courts" (though that will become a problem for our grandkids) simply that our laws are being disregarded, knowing that with our socio/liberal use of the law it's unlikely they would be punished. Sorry mate I haven't reproduced anything simply stating what anybody with 2 eyes can see.

by boatlady Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:02 pm

tlttf
I would find it helpful if you would post a link demonstrating the truth of what you aver, because I have two eyes, and I haven't seen our laws being disregarded by anyone except possibly the like of Starbucks et al.

by Guest Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:22 pm

Misdirection and obfuscation, conjurers’ tools of deception, are tactics often used by those who support crypto-racially discriminatory immigration laws and policies. If attention can be drawn towards disingenuously-introduced topics such as “culture” and “uncontrolled borders”, crypto-racist immigration laws and policies can often escape close and specific scrutiny.

by **Ivan** Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:38 pm

Ivan by unfettered immigration I mean uncontrolled, disregard the EU I'm specifically talking about from outside the EU not those from within.

tlttf. Unfettered – uncontrolled – unrestrained – call it what you like, it’s still a lie. I’ll say it for the third and last time, it has never been possible for anyone from outside Europe to just decide to come and live in this country. If you can find some evidence – not ‘Daily Mail’ exaggeration – that under Labour we had a policy that allowed anyone to turn up at Dover, Heathrow or Gatwick and be given the unqualified right to live here, then I will gladly apologise.

I haven't mentioned "Sharia Courts"

LOL. No, not since yesterday:-

If Labour hadn't opened the doors to unfettered immigration for the peoples of Africa and Asia (in excess of 2 million) would we now have Sharia Courts, honour killings and female genital mutilation?

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t776p30-taking-sides-the-dividing-lines-of-british-politics

by tlttf Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:20 am

Ivan, I'm shocked that another thread is mentioned when I'm posting here. I suppose I should be flattered. Smile

bobby, nothing else needs to be said! Very Happy

roc, use English please, I don't know if your calling me a racist or not, please stop hiding behind obscure phrases!!!

The one thing that pleases me is that nobody refutes what I've written.

by skwalker1964 Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:40 am

tlttf wrote:The one thing that pleases me is that nobody refutes what I've written.

tlttf - most of the posts in response to yours are refutations!

by Guest Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:06 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Misdirection and obfuscation, conjurers’ tools of deception, are tactics often used by those who support crypto-racially discriminatory immigration laws and policies. If attention can be drawn towards disingenuously-introduced topics such as “culture” and “uncontrolled borders”, crypto-racist immigration laws and policies can often escape close and specific scrutiny.

In the text quoted above, all words are English words; accordingly, any difficulties that an individual might encounter deciphering the meanings thereof are most likely indicative of that individual’s lack of familiarity with English words.

by tlttf Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:21 am

Personal attack on another member. Edited and referred to the moderators. Ivan

Fair point Steve, though apart from asking why, nobody as actually disproved what I've said/written.

by oftenwrong Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:25 pm

Is it accurate to describe the word immigration as an equivocal word used to evade a direct commitment, substituting for "racism".

by boatlady Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:40 pm

Discussions of immigration do seem to bring out several racist attitudes, that possibly people weren't aware they held, which is why such discussions are illuminating and instructive, but only if everyone keeps an open mind and is willing to consider the possibility that they may be wrong.

I guess not wanting to mix with foreigners is perhaps a matter of taste; identifying the presence of foreigners as the cause of socio-economic problems is a matter of political and economic analysis, which can be argued with and perhaps refuted; stating such views in the pages of the inflammatory press, or in a private conversation without presenting any evidence or being willing to engage in constructive discussion begins to edge towards the incitement of racial hatred; if you add the use of insulting terminology, I think you're there - you have a full-blown racist rant. Some posts perhaps edge uncomfortably close to the line.

by bobby Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:11 pm

As to if you are happy about the immigration to the UK is I should think it is down to your own personal experiences. Some have no experience, some little and some lots.

I was born in Westminster in fact about 200yds from where the runt Jeremy Hunt now pollutes. As a child my Mother would take us shopping to Brixton. Brixton used to be an area habited by arty farty people, actors and the like, and was quite a well to do area, why else would Electric Avenue Brixton be the first street in the UK to have electric street lighting.

In the late 50’s and through the 60’s Brixton for some reason became the target for many West Indian Immigrants, and eventually became a centre for West Indian Culture. When the first West Indians came, they did their best to assimilate with the indigenous population, and all was well in the community, many of the immigrants came here to work on Public Transport and the NHS. Some time later when the indigenous people were in a minority, the West Indian culture came more and more to the fore, to the point where you could hardly speak normally in the street because of the sound of Blue Beat, Ska and Calypso music, then later Reggae. Gradually many of the Brixton originals left, yet some had to stay due to the drop in property prices, as they couldn’t sell in Brixton and re purchase any where else, the immigrant population then spread throughout the south of London. Brixton if some of you remember became a no go area for white people during the eighties and bus drivers where told that they didn’t have to stop at certain bus stops due to racist attacks on the white bus drivers. Whilst this was going on a similar thing was happening in the West London borough of Southall, only now the immigrants where predominantly Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi. Is it any wonder that the people who lost their own identity to immigrants now see immigration as a problem?

In all honesty, to me it isn’t about race, but numbers and the lack of assimilation, they, immigrants come to Britain for what Britain was, then set about making it a carbon copy of where they came from, which not only includes houses of worship, but all the local shops, Cinemas etc.

Western Europeans when living in Britain go largely unnoticed, and you don’t even know they are foreign until you speak to them, and they come here to work and enter legally.

I have many examples based on personal experiences regarding immigration but would need to go on more than I already have.

I know I may now be called a racist by some of you, but quite frankly, the opinions of those mean sweet FA to me. I am not basing my opinions on what this paper or that paper said, but on what I have seen with my own eyes and experienced.

by skwalker1964 Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:18 pm

Bobby,

When Brits go to Spain, for example, don't we expect a 'King's Head', fish and chip shops and other staples of British life? We also expect to be able to talk English and maintain our distinctiveness.

Personally, if I go to somewhere foreign, I want to experience the foreignness of it, and not recreate 'Britain, but with better weather' - but there's no denying that plenty of Brits want what's familiar to them, but in a better setting.

It's not really justified to criticise immigrants here for doing the same.

For the record, though, I live on a row of 4 houses, of which 2 are occupied by Pakistani immigrants. The people in the house our garden backs onto are Iranian.

All these families are very assimilated, follow the local football team and generally work hard to fit in while maintaining their own cultural identity in the ways they choose to - and our lives are enriched by their friendliness, generosity and food.

by bobby Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:25 pm

What’s this "we" Steve, When I go abroad which is frequently, the last thing I want is to find a Kings Head, I much prefer the Continental Bar Culture, the last thing in the world I would want is to turn what is beautiful about Europe (as that’s where I go) into a copy of what we have allowed the UK to become.

I came back from Italy on Saturday after a five day business trip, and believe me the Italians are having an even worst time with immigration than we are, all of the traditional summer work that the Italian Students used to do is now done by eastern Europeans at a greatly reduced rate, leaving nothing for the indigenous Italians, you can’t pull up at traffic lights without an immigrant wanting to either wash your already clean windscreen or flogging you a Mickey mouse packet of tissues, in some towns and Cities you daren’t leave your home unoccupied for fear of immigrants taking occupancy.

My Nonna and three Aunties lived in Grotta Ferrata, which is just south of Frascati near Rome. They had a large very expensive Villa in a walled estate protected by a wall and electric gates, the place was absolutely out of this world. My Nonna died in 1990, my eldest Auntie died in 1992 leaving the two remaining sisters.

When the immigration problem hit a high, gangs of predominantly Albanians started targeting Estates such as the one My Aunts live on. Their modus opperendi was to climb the wall, and knock on the door, at the beginning the residents used to just open the door as due to the security of the estate, they thought it would be a friend or neighbour. The scumbag Albanians never singular would pepper spray anyone that they saw even the dogs and cats, they didn’t care how many people may be in, they just pepper sprayed the lot. When My Aunties immediate neighbour who is an airline pilot wi9^th a pair of German Shepherds and a rather large Son was robbed in that fashion, my Aunts felt it was time to leave the idyllic life they had worked hard to achieve and go back to the City of their birth. They went back to Rimini and purchased an apartment on the first floor in order to feel safe, my youngest Auntie died in 2008, leaving just one Auntie by herself, my Mother died this December, other than myself her last remaining member of her immediate family, she now doesn’t go out unless absolutely necessary, in fact I have been trying to get her to come home with me, but she feels the cold too much.

My point is Steve that not every one is lucky enough to view immigration based on yourself having some decent immigrant neighbours, how would you feel if you or yours got done by a gang of pepper spaying Albanians, or as My Auntie living in fear of them.

What I would also like to add is. I spent 6 years in the British Army and had my share of having some Micks take my life. I didn’t mind too much because the bastards didn’t get me, but had I have known then that I was defending England simply to give it away without a fight, Myself and I should think the vast majority of old soldiers would have stayed at home. There is no way in a million years would I have risked my all for what the country has become.

by oftenwrong Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:40 pm

That's the drawback of allowing Politicians to dictate the activities of Armies.
But that's democracy, innit?

by bobby Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:37 pm

OW Makes me wonder just who I should have been aiming my gun at doesn't it.

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