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Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

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Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

I used to think it was breathtaking arrogance and hypocrisy for those countries which have nuclear weapons to make judgements about which other countries could, or couldn’t, have them as well. After all, if you want to take the moral high ground on this issue, shouldn’t you get rid of your own nuclear weapons before telling other countries that they can’t have them?

My opinion changed immediately when I heard the President of the Islamofascist state of Iran (who goes by some name like ‘Ironmydinnerjacket’) say, on the first of several occasions, that he wanted "to wipe Israel off the map”. George W. Bush, with his talk of 'crusades' and his readiness to go to war against Saddam Hussein “because he tried to kill my daddy”, was a dangerous man to have in charge of nuclear weapons, but no Western power has talked of wiping out nations.

The five permanent members of the UN Security Council, and Germany, have expressed their "increasing concern" over Iran's nuclear programme, and they have called for clarification over any possible military uses. Iran insists that the programme is for purely peaceful purposes, but the International Atomic Agency says they want to send a high level mission to Iran to clear up any confusion.

With nuclear weapons, Iran could do very serious damage to Israel, and a pre-emptive strike by the Israelis must be a strong possibility. Should we support that, or even precipitate it? Are attempts at negotiation with Iran a waste of time?
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:28 am

According to the BBC World Service today, the number of Iranian listeners has trebled in the past year. Presumably VoA tells a similar story.

Accurate Information is the best thing we could send to the Iranian Public.


Listeners in the UK can hear BBC World Service on Freeview – a digital platform providing TV, radio and interactive services through television – and also on DAB digital radio, digital satellite, cable, and online. To find out how to tune in to Freeview Channel 710 and other digital services, visit
bbc.co.uk/digital

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:09 am

@Shirina wrote:I don't think the American people will tolerate yet another war. Our soldiers have been at this for almost 10 years; the families of those soldiers have been at this for almost 10 years. If we go into Iran, or even support Israel if they make such a move, I'm sure everyone here in this country will be asking - who is next? North Korea? Will we see a second decade of war?

I am a little nervous about Iran having nuclear weapons. I would be lying if I said I wasn't. Not because I think Ahmadinejad is going to press the big red button, but because Ahmadinejad won't be in power forever, and Iran can produce some fairly radical anti-Western leaders. I'm sure many here are old enough to remember Ayatollah Khomeini and the student-led rebellion against the Shah. Any sane leader of Iran would never launch a nuclear strike against Israel or its allies - allies that have thousands of nukes.

But I fear that Iran could revitalize the game of nuclear brinksmanship seen during the Cold War - the Cuban Missile Crisis, Operation Able Archer, etc. Even more frightening is the prospect of Iran using nuclear weapons via proxy. In other words, giving or selling even a small nuclear device or dirty bomb to a terrorist organization which would gleefully set it off in London, New York, or Tel-Aviv without a moment's hesitation. Iran could easily shrug its shoulders and claim it had no knowledge, and it would be incredibly difficult to prove otherwise.

Despite these fears, however, America cannot monitor every nation and enforce a Pax Americana onto the rest of the world. Even if that was our government's goal, the American people are weary of being the world's policeman and we have no desire to engage in building an empire. We need to just leave Iran alone.

a fair summary, as I happen to agree that most American's are very weary of there role of world policemen....who can blame them either...its a thank less job
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:10 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
One prominent Republican has demonstrated geopolitical expertise in the 21st Century. That Republican is not in the "race."

quite true Rock
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:54 am




Stox,

I sometimes agree, I sometimes disagree, but I always respect. Compare Dr. Rice to Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum, and Newt Gingrich, and tell me why Dr. Rice is not among the Republican candidates.

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:14 am

What should IRANIAN policy be on Iran?

There are two separate groups, each of whom think they are in charge there.

The President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, is not as mad as we think he is, but shares power with the shadowy Muslim clerics led by Ayatollah Khamanei.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-iran-parliament

Detailed research available at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jan/17/post936
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by astra on Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:39 pm

Don't know about Iran, but senator John McCain has just called for GI's to march into Syria.
Syria has a Mediterranean Coastline, a nice 'yomp' accross Iraq and.... Does anyone smell "mission creep"
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:00 pm

@astra wrote:
Don't know about Iran, but Senator John McCain has just called for GI's to march into Syria.
Syria has a Mediterranean Coastline, a nice 'yomp' accross Iraq and.... Does anyone smell "mission creep"

Won’t happen. Now you know one reason that I voted for the current President of the United States.

About this time last year, certain folks were calling on Commander in Chief Obama to put American USV “boots-on-ground” in Libya. He did not. He backed NATO putting “bombs-on-ground.”

Folks forget that Obama studied Political Science at a pretty decent school as an undergrad, and that his life experiences have exposed him to the vagaries of several cultures. Syria isn’t the place for American USV or British soldiers to be walking around exposed to idiocy.

One American E6 told me that in Iraq one morning he saved a Sunni’s life. The Sunni thanked him effusively. That afternoon he saved a Shia’s life, and the Sunni he had saved hours earlier tried to kill him.

Obama “knows about stuff like that.”
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:28 pm

What should US policy on Iran be?

Watever it SHOULD be, the fact is that it will evidently be decided by Bebe Netanyahu.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:03 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
@astra wrote:
Don't know about Iran, but Senator John McCain has just called for GI's to march into Syria.
Syria has a Mediterranean Coastline, a nice 'yomp' accross Iraq and.... Does anyone smell "mission creep"

Won’t happen. Now you know one reason that I voted for the current President of the United States.

About this time last year, certain folks were calling on Commander in Chief Obama to put American USV “boots-on-ground” in Libya. He did not. He backed NATO putting “bombs-on-ground.”

Folks forget that Obama studied Political Science at a pretty decent school as an undergrad, and that his life experiences have exposed him to the vagaries of several cultures. Syria isn’t the place for American USV or British soldiers to be walking around exposed to idiocy.

One American E6 told me that in Iraq one morning he saved a Sunni’s life. The Sunni thanked him effusively. That afternoon he saved a Shia’s life, and the Sunni he had saved hours earlier tried to kill him.

Obama “knows about stuff like that.”

Hi Rock
I can totally agree with not putting US or UK ''boots- on- the ground'' in either Syria or Iran... They are just not worth the loss of one US or UK young man in my view Rock...
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:35 am

Hi Rock
I can totally agree with not putting US or UK ''boots- on- the ground'' in either Syria or Iran... They are just not worth the loss of one US or UK young man in my view Rock...



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Agreed.

If the Arabs are not willing to risk their own forces in their own area, for their own good, why should the West?

If Iran uses nuclear weapons, Iran and much of the ME will disappear under incoming missiles. Sad
What a crazy world we live in. On second thoughts, it's not the world -it's man. Shocked
But then - what do I know.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by bambu on Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:52 am

What should U.S. policy on Iran be?

#####

Turn Iran's nuke factories into ash, and soon.
...or nuclear material backpack suicide bombers will be rendering US' and its allies' cities uninhabitable for a long long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDk_iGP9yxw

Suicide Killers Movie/Doc Trailer

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Iran could build nukes.....

Post by Papaumau on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:36 pm


In a report in my newspaper today I see that an Iranian political spokesman has admitted for the first time that his country is capable of building a nuclear missile.

Gholamreza Mesbahi Moghadam - who is not actually a part of the government - insisted that Iran would "never use enriched uranium to do so". He added that "Iran has the scientific and technological capabilities to produce and deliver a nuclear weapon, but it would never choose to take this path!"




With this sabre-rattling going on from Iran all of the time I wonder if each time something like this is said the conditions become easier and easier that either Israel, ( who definitely DO have this capability ), or even America - which goes without saying - might think seriously about doing another Iraq or Afghanistan on Iran ?

Also, why is it, I wonder that thoughtless mouthpieces in the political arena in Iran feel it necessary to keep on doing this ?

Regards.....

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:29 pm

Papaumau quote.

With this sabre-rattling going on from Iran all of the time I wonder if each time something like this is said the conditions become easier and easier that either Israel, ( who definitely DO have this capability ), or even America - which goes without saying - might think seriously about doing another Iraq or Afghanistan on Iran ?

Also, why is it, I wonder that thoughtless mouthpieces in the political
arena in Iran feel it necessary to keep on doing this ?

One of the advantages of sabre-rattling is that you do not have to draw your weapon to get your opponent jittery. Should your opponent then draw his weapon, it is you who can claim self-defence.

It's an age old tactic. The trick is twofold. One is to know just how far to go without provoking a physical re-action. This keeps your opponent at the disadvantage of not knowing your real intentions. The other is to know that, if you do provoke such action, the advantage is on your side to be able to win.

I do not believe that Israel will attack Iran. The odds are to stacked against it. Unless it has the support of the US, and that, I believe, is unlikely. I think the public there, and here, have had enough.

The Arabs, in my opinion, have also had enough of the US and UK interfering in their affairs in general. I know all about the call to help in Syria, but if we interfered there we would have the same situation as in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they want us out.

But then, what do I know
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:40 pm

I've decided to delegate that problem to the ISRAELI government. I'm sure they know more about the threat from Iran than I do.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:32 pm

The Iranians possess the "Ghadr - 110" medium range missile which is believed to have a range of 1800 km [MISSILETHREAT.com] which would allow it to hit targets in Israel and accross the middle east.

On the other hand Israel possesses The Jericho Missile which is capable of hitting targets inside Iran, and allthough Iran at this stage does not have a nuclear capability, Israel does.

So the question has got to be.... why does the west find it perfectly acceptable for Israel to possess nuclear weapons but not Iran, is there something of a double standard. ?

All the problems in the middle east and almost all extremist Islamic terrorist groups accross the world are born out of sympathy for the Palestinian people, and whether we like it or not, almost the entire Muslim world from Morocco to Indonesia sees Israel as the bully.

The nuclear arms race in the middle east was begun by Israel, and Iran sees itself rightly or wrongly as a potential champion for the Palestinians.
If we are to stop Iran from not only developing nuclear weapons, but also from building up its entire defence capability then we have to get serious about a lasting peace deal in the middle east.









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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:00 pm

@oftenwrong wrote:
I've decided to delegate that problem to the ISRAELI government. I'm sure they know more about the threat from Iran than I do.

And they know what to do about it.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Papaumau on Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:19 pm


While I am certainly not a Zionist I can see why Israel has to look as if it can defend itself against any of the Arab states that surround it.

The hawks in Israel feel that they have to - rightly or wrongly - show an uncompromising stance against any and all threats from out-with it's borders and I am sure that they feel that any show of weakness at all could precipitate an attack on their "promised land".

I am also sure that if enough pressure from the West and especially America was to be put on Israel and Hezbollah in the Palestine territories they - Israel - would sue for peace and would be happy to grant Palestine autonomy and a state of their own. After all after the holocaust many millions of Zionist Jews made the pilgrimage to the state of Israel so that they too could have a country to call their own. With this historical point in mind surely they must know that eventually they are going to have to grant the same right to the people of Palestine.

Regards....

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:01 pm

".... if enough pressure from the West and especially America was to be put on Israel ...."

Isn't going to happen. The Jewish vote in the United States is sufficiently numerous as to eliminate any possibility of a change of Policy towards Israel, barring some completely unforeseen development in the Middle East.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Papaumau on Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:11 pm


Hi again oftenwrong....

I suppose that that is two thirds of the problem right there !

The world and especially the America-hating Arabs and Jehadi Islamicists are well aware that the state of Israel is underwritten by the powerful Jewish lobby in America and that very few of the Western governments would ever go to bat for the Palestinians against the Zionist Jews in Israel.

Once again we see the religions - all of them - raising their ugly heads and turning human against human in a land that has been at war with the world and itself for many hundreds of years.

( I believe that in the old testament of The Bible it is THIS area of the world where - it is said - the true armageddon will start ).

I suppose that so long as we see such people driven to hate each-other by their uncompromising religious stances there will never be any kind of lasting peace in the wrongly-named - in my estimation - "Holy Land".

Regards.....

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:29 pm

"....driven to hate each-other by their uncompromising religious stances...."

That's the public stance, and Public's perception, but to a certain extent the "hate" is confected in the interests of those who wish to remain in their confortable Leadership positions. So it's yet another Power Game.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Papaumau on Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:54 pm



Yes oftenwrong...It is a truly awful mix of three religions, three political dogmas and a lot of power-greedy, land-greedy and selfish individuals that make this - the melting-pot of war in the world - a very dangerous place.

I guess that if we can do nothing to help all we can do is to be glad that we do not live there too. Evil or Very Mad

Regards.....

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by bambu on Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:21 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
@witchfinder wrote:
... Russia, China, Turkey and India.

Not exactly a gathering of righteous beacons of decency.

Exactly.

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:34 am

India - is the largest democracy in the world

Turkey - is a Muslim nation, a democracy and an ally of Western Europe, it is also a member of NATO and a candidate for membership of the European Union.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:17 pm

"Face" is an important ingredient of Sino-Asian cultures, and North Korea will be feeling a severe loss of it as a result of their failed rocket-launch.

Is that going to provoke a really dangerous attempt to regain the initiative?
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Tony T on Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:41 am

Should Iran be prevented from obtaining nuclear weapons?
 
Yes.
 
Israel has very little to do with it.
 
Although any country who maintains a President who vows to wipe a nation and a race from the face of the earth is not exactly (collectively) sane.
 
Although any country run by a medieval theocracy is not exactly (collectively) sane.
 
I couldn't care less whether it is viewed as hypocritical in some quarters.
 
Hypocritical or not, we (the world at large) cannot bet our survival upon the rationality of a mysogynistic leadership that stones women and winks at rape and hangs gays (adults and teenagers, I believe).
 
I seriously doubt that the Iraqis or the Afghans or the Indians or the Pakistanis or the Chinese or the Arabs or the Russians want Iran to obtain nuclear weapons either.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Scarecrow on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:08 pm

Though the U.S. and Israel possess nuclear weapons, both say Iran must not be allowed to have any because its president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Anti-war groups deny he ever said such a thing, claiming that the speech in question — Ahmadinejad’s first as Iran’s newly elected president — has been mistranslated.

According to the website Antiwar.com, he spoke in Farsi and quoted what the late Ayatollah Khomeini, father of the 1979 Islamic Revolution, had said about Israel. This is Antiwar.com’s translation of the key sentence:

‘Mam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).’

The Facts

The firestorm started when Nazila Fathi, then the Tehran correspondent of The New York Times, reported a story almost six years ago that was headlined: “Wipe Israel ‘off the map’ Iranian says.” The article attributed newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s remarks to a report by the ISNA press agency.

The article sparked outrage around the globe, with then-President George W. Bush and other world leaders condemning Ahmadinejad’s statement. The original New York Times article noted that Ahmadinejad said he was quoting Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the Islamic revolution, but that aspect was largely overlooked.

Then, specialists such as Juan Cole of the University of Michigan and Arash Norouzi of the Mossadegh Project pointed out that the original statement in Persian did not say that Israel should be wiped from the map, but instead that it would collapse.

Cole said that in the 1980s Khomeini gave a speech in which he said in Persian “Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” This means, “This occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the arena of time.” But then anonymous wire service translators rendered Khomeini as saying that Israel “must be wiped off the face of the map,” which Cole and Nourouzi say is inaccurate.

Ahmadinejad slightly misquoted Khomeini, substituting “safheh-i ruzgar,” or “page of time" for "sahneh-i ruzgar" or “arena of time.” But in any case, the old translation was dug up and used again by the Iranian news agency, Cole says. In fact, that’s how it was presented for years on Ahmadinejad’s English-language Web site, as the Times noted in a somewhat defensive article on the translation debate.

But the story doesn’t end there. Karim Sadjadpour, an Iranian specialist at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, notes that Iranian government entities began to erect billboards and signs with the “wipe off” phrase in English. Joshua Teitelbaum of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs compiled an interesting collection of photographs of these banners, such as one on the building that houses reserve military forces of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. “Israel should be wiped out of the face of the world,” the sign reads in English.

Teitelbaum’s report, while written from a pro-Israel perspective, includes a number of threatening statements about Israel that are similar in tone to Ahmadinejad’s controversial statement.

In 2000, Khamenei stated, “Iran’s position, which was first expressed by the Imam [Khomeini] and stated several times by those responsible, is that the cancerous tumor called Israel must be uprooted from the region.” He went on to say in the same speech that “Palestinian refugees should return and Muslims, Christians and Jews could choose a government for themselves, excluding immigrant Jews.”

Sadjadpour, who has closely studied the statements of Khamenei, said that the supreme leader has spoken more on the question of Israel than any other issue, which is remarkable given that Iran shares no border with Israel and that the Jewish state has virtually no impact on the daily lives of Iranians. Sadjadpour said Khamenei has been consistent, stating repeatedly that the goal is not the military destruction of the Jewish state but “the defeat of Zionist ideology and the dissolution of Israel through a ‘popular referendum.’”

Of course, an Israeli might conclude that such an outcome would be the destruction of the Jewish state in any case.

Some might question why Ahmadinejad’s precise words are important. Clearly, the Iranian government has unrelenting opposition to the state of Israel, so much so that it even rejects Palestinian efforts at statehood if that would result in Israel remaining in the Middle East. Indeed, Tehran has armed and funded Hamas, Hezbollah and other militant groups opposed to Israel. At the same time, the words allegedly uttered by Ahmadinejad have been used to suggest a change toward a more militaristic posture by Iran toward Israel.

In fact, Ahmadinejad is not the power broker in Iran; it is Khamenei. Khamenei, in fact, has been consistent in speaking of his hatred of Israel, but without a military context, as he demonstrated once again this week. Moreover, the fact that Ahmadinejad was merely quoting Khomeini suggests that even less weight should have been given to his words, especially since there is a dispute over the precise meaning in English.

“Wipe off the map,” in other words, has become easy shorthand for expressing revulsion at Iran’s anti-Israeli foreign policy. Certainly attention needs to be focused on that — and Iranian behavior in the region. But we’re going to award a Pinocchio to everyone who has blithely repeated the phrase without putting it into context.


http://Antiwar.com



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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Papaumau on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:17 pm


Must agree with Tony there !

As days go by and more and more unstable regimes get the bomb and the ability to deliver it the more dangerous living on this earth becomes.

I cannot imagine what Iran would be like if Armadinnerplate ever got his insane-brain and hands on a working rocket and atom-bomb. It doesn't bear thinking about. ( If it is bad for us to think about this, how much worse must it be for the people living in Israel ).

We already have one bunch of crazy military-types in North Korea with their finger on that particular button and God-help us all if they ever get a working rocket with which to deliver it. ( I mean.... did you all see those soldiers goose-stepping along the military parade yesterday ? ) How disturbing was that ?

Regards....

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Scarecrow on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:21 pm

Common sense would dictate that if Iran launched nukes at any other country in the region , they would be obliterated , this mock outrage from the west is symptomatic of the playing to the crowd rhetoric that they force feed people of low intellect daily. Pakistan in my opinion is the worry at this time , not the media / government driven Iran story. The fact that Iran is seen as a threat by the west to the nuclear fuel market would suggest why they would want to strike Iran , NOT because of nuclear warheads. I have woken up and smelled the coffee , shame a large percentage have not.

US-Iran: Raid on nuclear fuel market;

In the background of the political joust about Iran, a few countries are reshaping the world. They are taking possession of the global nuclear fuel market. New IAEA regulations should keep newcomers away. The US, UK, France, Germany, Russia, China and Japan will become the world’s nuclear filling stations. Under the auspices of the IAEA these suppliers will dictate the rules, the prices and the currencies they want to get paid in. Iran has become the pretext and test case for their plans. The problems of tomorrow’s world economy are being shaped today.

http://www.courtfool.info/en_Raid_on_Nuclear_Fuel_Market.htm

India, Israel, and Pakistan all confirmed nuclear powers , yet not signed up with
Nuclear Non -Prolifieration Treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferation_of_Nuclear_Weapons#India.2C_Israel.2C_and_Pakistan
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Red Cat Woman on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:16 am

Hi Scarecrow
just one small question can we not launched nukes at the Tory party HQ instead. as that would saves us all here in the UK. it would be money well spent I feel? what do you think?
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by sickchip on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:37 pm

Still......the only nation to deliberately use nuclear weapons to kill large numbers of people is the USA.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:44 pm

Which goes to show that Nuclear weapons can have no effect on regional politics. They've not been used again since 1945, although there have never been seven consecutive days of World Peace since.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Papaumau on Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:06 pm


The worry has to be that any senior army general in Iran or North Korea or even Israel might rationalise away the horror of using even one nuclear weapon by thinking about it's use as a tactical battlefield weapon. This argument has already been considered by both America and Britain if any country threatens to use their newly-acquired capability to deliver such a weapon onto any country in the middle east and the argument that the use of "just one" might stop more war than not using it at all is a very scary option that IS being considered.

Regards....

Papa....
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Shirina on Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:34 pm

Still......the only nation to deliberately use nuclear weapons to kill large numbers of people is the USA.

While this is factually accurate, I think the use of those facts is a bit skewed for a number of reasons:

1) The atom bombs were used to end a long and bloody war that would have been even bloodier if they had NOT been used. Not only were massive casualties predicted for both the Japanese civilians and US invasion force, the Soviets were rampaging through the Japanese on the Asian mainland, and the war needed to end quickly lest Stalin gobble up China, Indo-China, parts of Japan, etc. and put them behind the Iron Curtain. Oh, and the Soviets loved to rape and murder (when Germany invaded the USSR, the people of the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania actually welcomed the Nazis as liberators).

2) Very little was known about nuclear weapons; the long term effects of radiation were even less known

3) The "nukes" were not very powerful. More people were killed in one night of conventional bombing than were killed by nukes.

4) There was not a negative world opinion of nuclear weapons at the time, i.e. no "political cost" for using them.

5) Since the US was the only nation that had nukes, triggering a global nuclear war could not have happened.

Hence, the circumstances of yesteryear are immeasurably different that the current situation with Iran.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Shirina on Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Which goes to show that Nuclear weapons can have no effect on regional politics. They've not been used again since 1945, although there have never been seven consecutive days of World Peace since.

Actually, quite the opposite is true. The effect of nukes has had a profound affect on both regional and global politics - which is why so many weaker nations are scrambling to join the nuclear club. No nuclear power has ever engaged in open warfare with another nuclear power since the advent of nuclear weapons.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:14 pm

OK.

Nuclear weapons have no effect on other Nuclear Powers.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by sickchip on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:02 am

@Shirina wrote:
Still......the only nation to deliberately use nuclear weapons to kill large numbers of people is the USA.

While this is factually accurate, I think the use of those facts is a bit skewed for a number of reasons:

1) The atom bombs were used to end a long and bloody war that would have been even bloodier if they had NOT been used. Not only were massive casualties predicted for both the Japanese civilians and US invasion force, the Soviets were rampaging through the Japanese on the Asian mainland, and the war needed to end quickly lest Stalin gobble up China, Indo-China, parts of Japan, etc. and put them behind the Iron Curtain. Oh, and the Soviets loved to rape and murder (when Germany invaded the USSR, the people of the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania actually welcomed the Nazis as liberators).

2) Very little was known about nuclear weapons; the long term effects of radiation were even less known

3) The "nukes" were not very powerful. More people were killed in one night of conventional bombing than were killed by nukes.

4) There was not a negative world opinion of nuclear weapons at the time, i.e. no "political cost" for using them.

5) Since the US was the only nation that had nukes, triggering a global nuclear war could not have happened.

Hence, the circumstances of yesteryear are immeasurably different that the current situation with Iran.


It is well documented that the Japanese were about to surrender; and that the Americans dropped the bombs as an experiment to see what would happen - the japanese were guinea pigs.

The notion that more casualties would have been incurred without the dropping of the bombs is entirely excusist propaganda.....it's a pity people readily believe american lies.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Shirina on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:16 am

it's a pity people readily believe american lies.
It's even more of a pity that some people readily believe in the anti-American propagandist lies.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by sickchip on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:24 am

Shirina

I won't pursue this with you - we've been here before in some detail on the old msn board - and I don't want to get into that again. This is probably the one topic that I disagree with you on....as I've pointed out previously I generally agree with, and admire, the majority of your posts on numerous topics.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Shirina on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:58 am

I won't pursue this with you - we've been here before in some detail on the old msn board - and I don't want to get into that again.
I know, hence why I didn't go into this in any great detail. I just think you're over-simplifying. There were several reasons for using the bomb - just because one is true does not mean all the others are false. I love you
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:23 am

@sickchip wrote:
Still......the only nation to deliberately use nuclear weapons to kill large numbers of people is the USA.
@sickchip wrote:
It is well documented that the Japanese were about to surrender; and that the Americans dropped the bombs as an experiment to see what would happen - the japanese were guinea pigs.

The notion that more casualties would have been incurred without the dropping of the bombs is entirely excusist propaganda.....it's a pity people readily believe american lies.

Operation Downfall
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Japan's geography made this invasion plan quite obvious to the Japanese as well; they were able to predict the Allied invasion plans accurately and thus adjust their defensive plan, Operation Ketsugō, accordingly. The Japanese planned an all-out defense of Kyūshū, with little left in reserve for any subsequent defense operations. Casualty predictions varied widely but were extremely high for both sides: depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians resisted the invasion, estimates ran into the millions for Allied casualties[1] and several times that number for total Japanese casualties.

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7-4 million American casualties, including 400,000-800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.[1]

Notes

  1. Frank, Downfall, p. 340.


Full article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Japan

__________________________________________________________________________________________


The Lost Evidence - “Okinawa”

“Over thirty-eight thousand Americans have been wounded, and over twelve thousand killed or missing.”

“They lost their tomorrow so I could have mine.”

“Certainly we have no love for warfare, we despise it, but it’s part of what we do in our profession, and we do it better than anyone else.”

“The price for this island was estimated at over two hundred thousand lives.”

“I do not want another Okinawa from one end of Japan to the other” (Harry S Truman).

“Six weeks after victory at Okinawa, Hiroshima and Nagasaki marked the dawning of a new age.”

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucfZz0gI_qU
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:08 am

There are four nuclear armed states in the world who have not signed the NPT ( Non-Proliferation Treaty ), India, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel.
Three out of these four have publicly announced that they posess nuclear weapons and have tested nuclear weapons, only one nation has never admitted to posessing such weapons - Israel.

Less than three years ago the International Atomic Energy Agency called upon Israel to open up its facilities to inspection, and to adhere to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, an Israeli spokesman stated that "Israel will not co-operate in any matter with this resolution".

A QUESTION OF BALANCE

The United States and Europe in my view will not stop Iran from developing a nuclear weapon(s) capability, the whole of the midlle east is unbalanced in terms of military power, been heavily weighted in favour of Israel backed significantly by its ally, the United States.

A nuclear armed Iran will make that nation equal with Israel, both will ilegaly posess nuclear weapons, both will be acting outside international law, and both will exclude international inspection.

As things stand at the present time, Iran is firmly on the side of the Palestinian people, and therefore opposes Israel, its actions and its foreign policy, the two nations are diametrically oppsed to each other, on a potential collision course.

The real solution to solving this impasse is to solve the Palestinian problem, this is what this is realy all about.

But when Israel claims to want a lasting settlement, and at the same time continues to bulldoze Arab homes, it makes a mockery of Israels peaceful intentions.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

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