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Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

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Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

I used to think it was breathtaking arrogance and hypocrisy for those countries which have nuclear weapons to make judgements about which other countries could, or couldn’t, have them as well. After all, if you want to take the moral high ground on this issue, shouldn’t you get rid of your own nuclear weapons before telling other countries that they can’t have them?

My opinion changed immediately when I heard the President of the Islamofascist state of Iran (who goes by some name like ‘Ironmydinnerjacket’) say, on the first of several occasions, that he wanted "to wipe Israel off the map”. George W. Bush, with his talk of 'crusades' and his readiness to go to war against Saddam Hussein “because he tried to kill my daddy”, was a dangerous man to have in charge of nuclear weapons, but no Western power has talked of wiping out nations.

The five permanent members of the UN Security Council, and Germany, have expressed their "increasing concern" over Iran's nuclear programme, and they have called for clarification over any possible military uses. Iran insists that the programme is for purely peaceful purposes, but the International Atomic Agency says they want to send a high level mission to Iran to clear up any confusion.

With nuclear weapons, Iran could do very serious damage to Israel, and a pre-emptive strike by the Israelis must be a strong possibility. Should we support that, or even precipitate it? Are attempts at negotiation with Iran a waste of time?
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:39 am

We are actively supporting sanctions against Iran because Iran could very well be developing nuclear weapons.

This year the United Kingdom will give £70 million in aid to Uganda, a nation that amongst other things, tortures people in prisons and is considering the death penalty for those suspected of been homosexual.

One of the largest defence contracts in the world is between UK company BAE Systems and the government of Saudi Arabia, totals counted in billions.
Yet Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship, democracy does not exist, no freedom, no freedom of religion and no votes for large sections of society, torture and opression is common.

The UK primeminister parades around the middle east and gulf states, always with a small crowd of business men following behind trying to sell guns, bombs, bullets and weapons to the many dictators and one party states that are "friends and allies" to the UK.


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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:40 pm

".... trying to sell guns, bombs, bullets and weapons to the many dictators ...."

The Club is not exclusively a British one of course. The Nobel organisation accumulated the funds to support its Peace Prize from selling Dynamite, and Swedish Industry grew fat on the sales of the Bofors Gun. The most powerful nation in the World would not have stayed that way for 70 years without its US Industrial-Military complex, and every local uprising makes full use of the Kalashnikov.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by methought on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:18 pm

Good post witchfinder - Maggie's son was disapproved of for selling arms to dubious regimes but our current lot seem to regard it as one of the perks of the job...

I seem to remember a saying with the words hoist and petard in it.

As for motivation, it seems finance is the main issue, as Iran is only allowed to sell its oil to Greece because Greece is broke, yet it holds 80% of the world's resources, along with Libya, and apparently again, though I haven't read it myself, rumour has it that young 'sword' wrote his paper about setting up a pan-African bank to rival the world bank.

Who pays the piper....

It's good to see they're looking after our interests
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:57 pm

The Israeli primeminister yesterday called for a "red line to be drawn" refering to Irans nuclear programme, Mr Netanyahu indicated that Israel would not let Iran develop any nuclear weapons.

In essence I agree that it would be a very bad thing, and a sad day if yet another nation got its hands on these weapons of mass destruction and mass death, but I shake my head in disbelief hearing the leader of a nuclear armed state telling another state that they should not have what they have.

The circle of mistrust between the west and much of the Islamic world needs to be broken, we need peace in the middle east, and all it requires is for nations to be realistic.

For a nuclear armed state like Israel, whch defies international law and implements a system of apartheid and destroys Arab property and lands to point the big stick and tell Iran it cannot have what it has is not a recipe for peace, nor will it defuse the tensions and bitterness which exist.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:24 pm

Israel will continue to do as it likes, under the umbrella of protection from one of the World's most powerful Nations.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:14 am

oftenwrong wrote:
Israel will continue to do as it likes, under the umbrella of protection from one of the World's most powerful Nations.

I vote in elections for one US Congressional Representative (every two years), two US Senators (every six years, staggered), and one US President (every four years). In November 2012, I will vote for one US Representative, one US Senator, and one US President. Each of the four individuals for whom I will vote supports the absolute, non-negotiable right of the State of Israel to ensure its existence and safety by any means necessary. If any of these four individuals wavers on this commitment to the State of Israel, I’ll do everything in my legal power to run the rascals out of office. If they want my vote and support, they want to support the existence and safety of the State of Israel.

I pay taxes, a whole lot of taxes, and I want US tax dollars to support the existence and safety of the State of Israel. As a US citizen, I’ve got a dog in that fight, and my dog barks loud and bites hard.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by methought on Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:35 pm

I'd just like everyone to have universal human rights, freedom of speech, democratic elections and access to a good standard of education.

It is, however, when it comes to laying our political philosophies on the table and looking at where the different underpinnings of ours and other belief systems have wider implications, that paradox becomes an issue.

If any of us had been evicted from our lands and houses in 1947, corralled in a ghetto, and shelled, or run over by tanks, or white phosphorus we too might not be happy. It is impossible not to feel sympathy for anyone who is without basic human rights - to live safely and free from fear.

The Palestinians can only grieve. No passports, no way out. Having Iran try and resolve the problem by force wouldn't however resolve anything, and I'd like to think they understand that.

Gunboat diplomacy has its place, maybe, but a delicate balance has us all just one wrong move away from the era of the ants.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:48 pm

methought wrote:
If any of us had been evicted from our lands and houses in 1947, corralled in a ghetto, and shelled, or run over by tanks, or white phosphorus we too might not be happy. It is impossible not to feel sympathy for anyone who is without basic human rights - to live safely and free from fear.

The Palestinians can only grieve. No passports, no way out. Having Iran try and resolve the problem by force wouldn't however resolve anything, and I'd like to think they understand that.
United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a plan for the future government of Palestine. The Plan was described as a Plan of Partition with Economic Union which, after the termination of the British Mandate, would lead to the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan as Resolution 181(II).[1]

Part I of the Plan contained provisions dealing with the Termination of the Mandate, Partition and Independence. The Mandate would be terminated as soon as possible and the United Kingdom would withdraw from Palestine no later than the previously announced date of 1 August 1948. The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements: Arab nationalism and Jewish nationalism (Zionism). Part II of the Plan included a detailed description of the proposed boundaries for each state.[2] The Plan also called for Economic Union between the proposed states, and for the protection of religious and minority rights.

The Plan was accepted by the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency.[3][4] The Plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, including the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee,[3][5] who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League. The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed partition and claimed all of Palestine.[6] The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 65% non-Jewish (1,200,000) and 35% Jewish (650,000).[7]

Immediately after adoption of the Resolution by the General Assembly, the Civil War broke out.[8] The partition plan was not implemented.[9]

In 2011, Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas stated that the Arab rejection of the partition plan was a mistake he hoped to rectify.[10]

References

1. "A/RES/181(II) of 29 November 1947". United Nations. 1947. Retrieved 11 January 2012.
2. Part II. – Boundaries recommended in UNGA Res 181 Molinaro, Enrico The Holy Places of Jerusalem in Middle East Peace Agreements Page 78
3. Best, Antony (2004). International history of the twentieth century and beyond.. London: Routledge. pp. 120. ISBN 0-4-5-20739.
4. Gilbert, Martin (1998). Israel: A History. UK: Doubleday. pp. 149. ISBN 0-688-12362-7.
5. Lenczowski, George (1962). The Middle East in World Affairs. Cornell University Press. pp. 396. ISBN 62-16343.
6. The Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs (PASSIA)
7. Report of UNSCOP – 1947
8. Article "History of Palestine", Encyclopædia Britannica (2002 edition), article section written by Walid Ahmed Khalidi and Ian J. Bickerton.
9. Itzhak Galnoor (1995). The Partition of Palestine: Decision Crossroads in the Zionist Movement. SUNY Press. pp. 289–. ISBN 978-0-7914-2193-2. Retrieved 3 July 2012.
10. Abbas should change his locks before next wave of Palestinian prisoners freed, Haaretz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by astradt1 on Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:04 pm

I wonder if the

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a plan for the future government of Palestine. The Plan was described as a Plan of Partition with Economic Union which, after the termination of the British Mandate, would lead to the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan as Resolution 181(II).[1]

Sets out the provision of Jewish settlements on Palestinian land?
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:42 pm

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Jewish reaction

Jews in Palestine and around the world reacted to the UN resolution with jubilation. The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, praised and accepted the resolution while expressing dissatisfaction with some of the details.[28] Mainstream Zionist leaders emphasized the "heavy responsibility" of building a modern Jewish State, and committed to working towards a peaceful coexistence with the region's other inhabitants:[29][30][31]

It is now our primary task to establish relations of peace and harmony with our Arab neighbors – Chaim Weizmann

[Menachem] Begin warned that the partition would not bring peace because the Arabs would also attack the small state and that "in the war ahead we'll have to stand on our own, it will be a war on our existence and future".[32]

Arab reaction

The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed partition and claimed all of Palestine.[36] The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).[7]

A few weeks after UNSCOP released its report, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, was quoted by an Egyptian newspaper as predicting that Palestine would be overrun by Muslim volunteers.[37] According to the reporter, he said "Personally I hope the Jews do not force us into this war because it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades."[37]

Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".[39] On 20 May 1948, Azzam told reporters "We are fighting for an Arab Palestine"[40]

References

2. Part II. – Boundaries recommended in UNGA Res 181 Molinaro, Enrico The Holy Places of Jerusalem in Middle East Peace Agreements Page 78
7. Report of UNSCOP – 1947
28. [2]
29. "PALESTINE JEWRY JOYOUS AT NEWS; Ben-Gurion Voices Attitude of Grateful Responsibility – Jerusalem Arabs Silent". New York Times: pp. 58. 30 November 1947. Retrieved 9 January 2012.
30. "VOTE ON PALESTINE CHEERED BY CROWD". New York Times. 30 November 1947. Retrieved 9 January 2012.
31. "JEWISH UNITS HERE HAIL ACTION BY U.N.". New York Times. 30 November 1947. Retrieved 9 January 2012.
32. Begin, Menachem, The Revolt 1978, p. 412.
36. The Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs (PASSIA)
37. Akhbar el-Yom, 11 October 2011, p9. The literal English translation is somewhat ambiguous, however the overall meaning is that the coming Arab defeat of the Jews will be remembered in the same way as the past Arab defeats of the Mongols and Crusaders are remembered.
39. Benny Morris, 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War, Yale University Press, 2008
40. Palestine Post, 21 May 1948, p. 3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#Jewish_reaction

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by methought on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:45 am

Jubilation at the losses experienced by others is difficult to reconcile with any moral high ground.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:36 am

Arab–Israeli conflict
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That day [14 May 1948], the armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq invaded/intervened in what had just ceased to be the British Mandate, marking the beginning of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Prior to and during this conflict, 713,000[30] Palestinian Arabs fled their original lands to become Palestinian refugees, in part, due to an alleged promise from Arab leaders that they would be able to return when the war had been won.

Before the adoption by the United Nations of Resolution 181 in November 1947 and the declaration of the State of Israel in May 1948, several Arab countries adopted discriminatory measures against their local Jewish populations. The status of Jewish citizens in Arab states worsened dramatically during the 1948 Israeli-Arab war. Major anti-Jewish riots erupted throughout the Arab World in December 1947, and Jewish communities were hit particularly hard in Syria and Aden, with hundreds of dead and injured. By mid-1948, almost all Jewish communities in Arab states had suffered attacks and their status deteriorated. Jews under Islamic regimes were uprooted from their longtime residency or became political hostages of the Arab–Israeli conflict. As a result, a large number of Jews fled or were forced to emigrate from Arab countries and other Muslim countries as well. Anti-Jewish violence and persecution initiated the first waves of exodus, with many following. In Libya, Jews were deprived of citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized.[31] Egypt expelled most of its Jewish community in 1956, while Algeria denied its Jews of citizenship, upon its independence in 1962. The majority were fleeing due to worsening political conditions, although some emigrated for ideological reasons.[32]

By the late 1960s, more than 850,000 Jews had left their birthplaces and their homes in some 10 Arab countries. Today, fewer than 7,000 Jews remain in these same countries. Individual and communal properties were confiscated without compensation.[33][34][35]

As a result of Israel's victory in its 1948 War of Independence… any Jews on the West Bank or in Gaza were exiled from their property and homes to Israel.

References

30. GENERAL PROGRESS REPORT AND SUPPLEMENTARY REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS CONCILIATION COMMISSION FOR PALESTINE, Covering the period from December 11, 1949 to October 23, 1950, GA A/1367/Rev.1 23 October 1950
31. Aharoni, Ada (Volume 15, Number 1/March 2003). "The Forced Migration of Jews from Arab Countries". Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group. http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/content/w91udxrhc7cf5a86.
32. Aliyeh to Israel: Immigration under Conditions of Adversity – Shoshana Neumann, Bar-Ilan University, page 10. Asia: Yemen – 45,127 (6.7), Turkey – 34,647 (5), Iraq – 124,225 (18), Iran – 25,971 (3.Cool, Syria and Lebanon – 3,162 (0.5), Eden – 3,320 (0.5); Africa: Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria – 52,565 (7.7), Libya – 32,130 (4.6) (Keren-Hayesod, 1953). Note: The numbers add up to 286,500 (without Turkey, see also: History of the Jews in Turkey).
33. "Irwin Cotler: Jewish Refugees From Arab Countries: The Case For Rights And Redress". Spme.net. http://spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=3471.
34. Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries by Ya'akov Meron. Middle East Quarterly, September 1995
35. Jews in Grave Danger in All Moslem Lands, The New York Times, May 16, 1948, quoted in Was there any coordination between Arab governments in the expulsions of the Middle Eastern and North African Jews? (JIMENA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_Wars#Civil_War_in_Palestine

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:54 pm

Look at me, Mama! I know how to copy lots of stuff that people could find for themselves, and bore everyone else to distraction.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:09 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Look at me, Mama! I know how to copy lots of stuff that people could find for themselves, and bore everyone else to distraction.

Look at me, world, I know how to ignore substantive information and belittle and disrespect persons who locate and post substantive information.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:11 pm

World Jewish Population
(compiled by Ner LeElef)

The worldwide Jewish population is 13.3 million Jews.

In 2001, 8.3 million Jews lived in the Diaspora and 4.9 million lived in Israel.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm
World Jewish Population, 2010
Sergio DellaPergola
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

At the beginning of 2010, the world’s Jewish population was estimated at 13,428,300 - an increase of 80,300 (0.6 percent) over the 2009 revised estimate.1

NOTES

1Previous estimates, as of January 1, 2008, were published by this author in the American Jewish Year Book, 108 (New York, American Jewish Committee, 2008), 569-620. This was the last time the American Jewish Year Book (AJYB) appeared, after 108 years, beginning in 1899. The AJYB documented the Jewish world and gave significant attention to Jewish population issues. Since 1981, responsibility for the preparation of annual population estimates for world Jewry was the responsibility of the Division of Jewish Demography and Statistics of the Institute of Contemporary Jewry at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The Division was founded by Roberto Bachi in 1959, headed by Uziel O. Schmelz until 1986, and, since, by the present author. We express our appreciation to the editors of AJYB during the past thirty years: Morris Fine, Milton Himmelfarb, David Singer, Ruth Seldin, and Lawrence Grossman. The interested reader may consult AJYB volumes for further details on how the respective annual estimates were obtained. World Jewish population estimates as of January 1, 2009 were prepared for publication but not issued. See also Sergio DellaPergola, Uzi Rebhun, and Mark Tolts, “Prospecting the Jewish Future: Population Projections 2000–2080,” American Jewish Year Book, 100 (New York, American Jewish Committee, 2000), 103–146.

http://www.jewishdatabank.org/Reports/World_Jewish_Population_2010.pdf
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?
by RockOnBrother on Wed 3 Oct 2012 - 10:36
Arab–Israeli conflict
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

… 850,000 Jews…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_Wars#Civil_War_in_Palestine

With an estimated world Jewish population of 13,400,000 and an estimated Israeli Jewish population of 4,900,000, the 850,000 Jews expelled/displaced from Arab nations and other predominantly Muslim nations constitute 6.34% of the number of Jews worldwide and 17.35% of the number of Jews in Israel.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by tlttf on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:03 pm

and this will stop Iran how exactly and should it?

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:38 pm

tlttf wrote:
and this will stop Iran how exactly…?

I don’t know.

tlttf wrote:
… should it?

Iran’s Looney Tunes prime minister and religiously intolerant ayatollahs should be stopped from developing and deploying nuclear weapons, just as Saddam the beast was stopped one Sunday in 1981 when his favorite toy, the nuclear reactor being built for “His Beastness” by France, went “BOOM!”
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by tlttf on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:58 pm

Very true rob, though it didn't prevent the illegal war waged against Iraq a few years later, still where oil's involved any excuse will suffice.

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:56 pm

tlttf wrote:
Very true rob, though it didn't prevent the illegal war waged against Iraq…

There was no illegal war waged against Iraq; there was no war waged against Iraq at all. There were two wars waged against Saddam the beast (and his “mini-beasts”), the immoral usurper that, decodes ago, stole Iraq from its rightful owners, the people of Iraq. This time, it’s not a fantasy wherein people shout, “The wicked witch is dead”, it’s a reality wherein people shout, “The wicked beast is dead.”

Saddam the beast’s absence from this world is a blessing to the decent people of this world.


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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by astradt1 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:23 pm

Roc stated:- just as Saddam the beast was stopped one Sunday in 1981 when his favorite toy, the nuclear reactor being built for “His Beastness” by France, went “BOOM!”

Was this the very same Saddam in the following extract from Wiki?

In addition to fellow Arab support, the United States and west European countries began to support the Iraqis. Saddam Hussein was given diplomatic, monetary, and military support by the US, including massive loans, political clout, and intelligence on the Iranian deployments using American spy satellites. In 1982, President Ronald Reagan removed Iraq from the list of countries "supporting terrorism", and sold weapons such as howitzers to Iraq via Jordan and Israel. France sold Iraq millions of dollars worth of weapons, including Gazelle helicopters, Mirage F-1 fighters, and Exocet missiles. Both the United States and West Germany sold Iraq pesticides and poisons that would be used to create their infamous and illegal chemical weapons,and other weapons, such as Roland missiles, while the US and Great Britain blocked any UN resolutions against Iraqi chemical weapons use. The US also gave intelligence to the Iraqis which allowed them the coordinate their attacks against the Iranians.

Roc posted:- there was no was at all waged against Iraq. There were two wars waged against Saddam the beast

Strange how a 'war ' against one man led to so many deaths among the Iraqi population?
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:36 am

The middle east has suddenly become the centre of the world

With Iran seemingly imploding due to economic turmoil and the dramatic plunge of its currency, protests erupted in several citys, the Iranian government have attempted to block news of the protests from spreading by jamming the BBC Persian service TV.

Meanwhile Turkish forces have retaliated against Syrian forces who fired shells and artillery onto Turkish soil, in effect this has put Turkey on a collision course with Iran.

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:07 pm

The late Kenny Everett scandalised a Tory Conference by demanding, "Let's bomb Russia".

Now the contemporary equivalent on these threads from certain quarters seems to be, "Let's bomb Iran, Syria, Tunisia, Somalia and anyone else who insists upon being not like us."
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by methought on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:27 pm

I recall a you-tube party piece by the shrub when he was in office, singing a song formerly by the Beach Boys, called Barbara-Ann.

Well hopefully we will have no need to go down that path since Iran has categorically stated that it will not fire the first shot.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:20 am

The perception of the vast majority of the population of the middle east is of a United States which backs and supports Israel, in terms of finance, trade, resources and most of all, millitary hardware.

The American public do not seem to understand, or perhaps they dont know that amongst ordinary people from Egypt to Iran, the Americans are not trusted.

In many instances this widespread mistrust manifests itself as hatred which leads to violence and terror or terror attacks, and the root cause of all this is the Palestinian problem, seen by most people in the middle east as a problem created and propelled by Israel.

If Isreal attacks Iran, there will be no support or backing from any other nation in that region, no government would dare to support such an action by Israel for fear of an uprising or unrest amongst the population.

The key to all the problems in the middle east is a two state solution, an ending of of Israels ilegal settlements, an ending of the ilegal occupation of lands held by Israel, until this happens there will never be peace and the problems will never go away.

Its about time that the United States realized reality



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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:01 pm

Remote-controlled flying bombs must be doing a lot to cement friendship between The West and Muslim nations.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:37 pm

witchfinder wrote:
The perception of the vast majority of the population of the middle east is of a United States which backs and supports Israel,1 in terms of finance, trade, resources and most of all, millitary hardware.

The American public do not seem to understand, or perhaps they dont know that amongst ordinary people from Egypt to Iran, the Americans are not trusted.2

In many instances this widespread mistrust manifests itself as hatred which leads to violence and terror or terror attacks, and the root cause of all this is the Palestinian problem,3 seen by most people in the middle east as a problem created and propelled by Israel.

The key to all the problems in the middle east is a two state solution,4 an ending of of Israels ilegal settlements,5 an ending of the ilegal occupation of lands held by Israel,6 until this happens there will never be peace and the problems will never go away.

Its about time that the United States realized reality.7


  1. I am an American USV and a Texan. I back and support Israel in terms of finance, trade, resources, and military hardware. I back and support Israel’s moral stand against extermination of Israeli Jews and annihilation of Israeli by Arab bullies seemingly intent upon Jewish genocide.

    It with mourning that I note the obsession with and implicit support for de-Jewification of Israel by extermination of Israeli Jews and annihilation of Israel exhibited, in my opinion, by some posters hereon.


  2. I am an American USV and a Texan. Insofar as the moral right of Israeli Jews to exist and the moral duty of the Government of the State of Israel, the Israeli Defence Force, Mossad, and other Israeli entities to ensure the existence of Israeli Jews via ensuring the external and internal security of Israel are concerned, I do not trust anti-Jewish/anti-Israel people from Egypt to Iran.


  3. The root cause of “all this”, such as the extermination of innocent human souls viewable as it happened by clicking here or by clicking the link below, is bestial murderers/terrorists unworthy of the title “human” that choose to wreak havoc and destruction upon civilized mankind.


  4. The two state partition mandated by the United Nations was rejected by Arab bully states that actualized their verbal rejection of partition by attacking the State of Israel aborning in 1948. Click here for details previously posted by RockOnBrother on Wednesday 3 October 2012 at 10:36.


  5. Israel possesses no illegal settlements. Israel cannot end possession of that which it does not possess.


  6. Israel engages in no illegal occupation of lands held by Israel. Israel cannot end that which it is not engaged.


  7. I am an American USV and a Texan. I realized reality more than four decades ago; certain people both within and without the Middle East are obsessed with and committed to the de-Jewification of Israel by extermination of Israeli Jews and annihilation of the State of Israel.

The extermination of innocent human souls as it happened
http://www.youtube.com/v/UVhhu5OjMf8
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:55 pm

RockOnBrother

It is a fact that there are far more supporters of the Palestinian cause here in Europe than there are in the United States, this is something else which I rather suspect many Americans do not realize.

Of the many millions in Europe who support a free and independent Palestine, the vast majority also support the right of Israel to exist and for Israelis to live in peace and stability.

I would like you to view the YouTube video below, it is of a speech in the UK Parliament by a well known member of Parliament and British Jew "Gerald Kaufman".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

I agree with you that the Arabs have indeed been bullies, but on the other hand so have the Israelis, and some of the Israeli actions have been despicable and grossly inhuman.

Is it not time, after over 60 years, that both sides had their heads banged together and told to make peace and create the two states.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by boatlady on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:39 pm

Thanks for the link to the Youtube clip - Gerald Kaufman makes good sense
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:52 pm

witchfinder wrote:
RockOnBrother

It is a fact that there are far more supporters of the Palestinian cause here in Europe than there are in the United States, this is something else which I rather suspect many Americans do not realize.

I mourn for Europeans who, by supporting the so-called “Palestinian cause”, implicitly support de-Jewification of Israel via extermination of Israeli Jews and annihilation of the State of Israel. I understand that, unlike Americans USV (many of whom, including me, have genetic and cultural roots in Europe), many Europeans live in nations that either propagated, actively supported, or in some way tolerated, the de-Jewification of Europe via the Nazi “final solution.” You might investigate “before and after” Jewish populations of European numbers before disputing this fact.

There is a scene in Shindler’s List in which, at war’s end, the finally-free eight hundred plus Jews saved from extermination by Oscar Shindler’s courageous, covert actions are approached by a Russian soldier on horseback. A short conversation ensues wherein these eight hundred plus European Jews find out that, in effect, they have no homes “back home” to which to return. In The movie’s final scene, five thousand plus Israeli Jews, all descendants of those eight hundred plus homeless European Jews, are shown coming over a hill in their native land, the State of Israel. As is the case with most Israeli Jews, if Israel was erased, they would have no homes “back home” to which to return; it’s Israel or nothing.

Perhaps many Europeans’ disdain for Israel’s internal and external security stems from modern Europeans’ familial ties with recent and not-so-recent ancestral family members who either participated in or did not effectively oppose the de-Jewification of their homelands. There were inquisitions in Europe; there were no inquisitions in the United States of America. There were Jewish ghettos in Europe; there were no Jewish ghettos in the United States of America. There were pogroms in Europe; there were no pogroms in the United States of America. There were exterminations of Jews in Europe (six million of the eighteen million on Earth prior to the Holocaust); there were no exterminations of Jews in the United States of America. Six million Jews enjoy guaranteed human rights, including free exercise of religion, in the United States of America; as I type, certain European nations deny Jewish schoolchildren their unalienable human right to adorn their necks with Star of David necklaces during public school attendance.

I am an American and proud of it. I am a Texan and proud of it.

witchfinder wrote:
Of the many millions in Europe who support a free and independent Palestine, the vast majority also support the right of Israel to exist and for Israelis to live in peace and stability.

The UN-mandated partition was rejected by Arab bullies in 1948 as Arab armed forces initiated efforts to to push the State Israel into the sea before it was a day old. If one supports those whose sixty-four year effort to exterminate Israeli Jews and annihilate the State of Israel is irrefutably documented, then one does not support the right of Israel to exist and the right of Israelis to live in peace and stability.

witchfinder wrote:
I would like you to view the YouTube video below, it is of a speech in the UK Parliament by a well known member of Parliament and British Jew "Gerald Kaufman".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

I viewed and heard Gerald “Quisling” Kaufman equate the Israel Defence Force to Nazis. I wonder how Gerald “Quisling” Kaufman sleeps at night after publicly proclaiming that lie.

witchfinder wrote:
I agree with you that the Arabs have indeed been bullies, but on the other hand so have the Israelis, and some of the Israeli actions have been despicable and grossly inhuman.

There are fewer than five million Israeli Jews in existence today. There are more than one hundred million Arabs and other persons overtly and/or covertly committed to the extermination of Israeli Jews and the annihilation of the State of Israel. Fewer than five million cannot bully more than one hundred million.

hamas, hezbollah, islamic jihad, and their plethora of overt and covert supporters within and without the Middle East regularly perpetrate despicable, inhuman acts against Israeli Jews. Given enough time, and explicit/implicit permission from these overt and covert supports, including far too many Europeans, these perpetrators of despicable inhumane acts against Israeli Jews will succeed in their sixty-four year war of eradication against the State of Israel.

witchfinder wrote:
Is it not time, after over 60 years, that both sides had their heads banged together and told to make peace and create the two states.

It was time in 1948 for both sides to make peace and create two states. European nations did nothing to halt Arab bullies’ attempts to cleanse the Middle East of Jews in 1948; it’s a tad bit late for European nations to believe that they possess standing to dictate anything to the fewer than five million Israeli Jews who have survived in spite of European nations’ blind eyes, deaf ears, and mute lips.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:44 pm

The Arab bullies now risk being shot if they venture upon the land which used to be theirs.

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:38 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
The Arab bullies now risk being shot if they venture upon the land which used to be theirs.

The Arab bullies, which currently outnumber Israeli Jews by ten to one or more, risk being shot when they venture unto land which was never theirs to commit genocidal murders of Israeli Jews.

2:22-2:40: “It’s as if Allah is telling us that Jews, because they are corrupt and arrogant, because they have never obeyed God throughout their history, don’t deserve to be part of mankind.”
http://www.youtube.com/v/l7DhMEzQWRg
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by witchfinder on Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:48 pm

RockOnBrother

You do not seem to understand

Both I and virtualy every other person in the UK and accross Europe who strongly believes in a free and independent Palestine, also strongly believe in the right of Israel to exist and to continue as a free and independent state for the Israeli people.

It would appear RockOnBrother that you are completely one sided, you seem not to care nor be bothered about the continuing plight of Palestinians who are innocent, the women and children, those that have hade their land taken off them, those that have had their homes bulldozed to the ground and told to "get out".

From around the 3rd century until the late 20th century the majority of the population of what is now Israel was Muslim, for well over 1500 years the Jews were a minority, the Jews were a minority when Israel was born in 1949.
The state of Israel was created by terrorism, it was created by taking other peoples land, and taking other peoples land continues on today.

The fact is that though you may agree that Israel has the right to exist and live in peace - so does the Palestinians, or is it a matter of one rule for Israel but a different rule for Palestine. ?

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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:37 pm

witchfinder wrote:
RockOnBrother

You do not seem to understand

I understand perfectly.

witchfinder wrote:
Both I and virtualy every other person in the UK and accross Europe who strongly believes in a free and independent Palestine, also strongly believe in the right of Israel to exist and to continue as a free and independent state for the Israeli people.

One who overtly or covertly supports the sixty-four war of extermination against Israeli Jews does not support the right of Israel to exist and to continue as a free and independent state for Israeli Jews.

witchfinder wrote:
It would appear RockOnBrother that you are completely one sided, you seem not to care nor be bothered about the continuing plight of Palestinians who are innocent, the women and children, those that have hade their land taken off them, those that have had their homes bulldozed to the ground and told to "get out".

It would appear, Witchfinder, that effort expended on determining how many sides I might have could be more profitably invested in learning the CRUEL history of Arab attempts to exterminate Palestinian/Israeli Jews.

I choose to care and to be bothered about the continuing plight of innocent Israeli Jews. I choose to care and to be bothered about innocent Jewish women, children, and men that have been blown to bloody shreds of flesh, bone, blood, and brains by bestial homicide bombers and bestial launchers of rockets in the streets, cafes, nightclubs, buses, and homes in their native land. I choose to care and to be bothered about the eight hundred fifty thousand Jews who were forced from their lands by bullies in Arab states and other Muslim-controlled states, lands that their families had owned and occupied for decades, centuries, and millennia.

witchfinder wrote:
From around the 3rd century until the late 20th century the majority of the population of what is now Israel was Muslim, for well over 1500 years the Jews were a minority, the Jews were a minority when Israel was born in 1949.

There were no Muslims prior to the 7th century AD. Jews lived in Israel from about the 14th Century until now. Europeans forced most from Israel into various parts of Europe and Arab lands in the late 1st Century AD. Europeans’ de-Jewification of Europe was completed by 1945, leaving surviving Jews nowhere to go but back home for real, back home to Israel, their homeland for three thousand four hundred years.

Jews are a minority, period. There are sixty-three million Brits out of a total population of sixty-three million persons in the UK; there are thirteen million four hundred thousand Jews out of a total population of seven billion in the world.

witchfinder wrote:
The state of Israel was created by terrorism…

The State of Israel was created by United Nations mandate.

witchfinder wrote:
… it was created by taking other peoples land, and taking other peoples land continues on today.

The State of Israel was created by United Nations-mandated partition, rejected by Arab bullies, via word prior to its creation, and via a sixty-four year long war of extermination against Israeli Jews upon its creation.

witchfinder wrote:
The fact is that though you may agree that Israel has the right to exist and live in peace…

Israel has a right to exist no matter to what I may agree.

witchfinder wrote:
… so does the Palestinians, or is it a matter of one rule for Israel but a different rule for Palestine. ?

When bullies choose to initiate a war of extermination against Jews in their native land, taken from them by Europeans, bullies choose to be treated as enemies by those that, for sixty-four plus years, they have attempted to exterminate. Those are the rules of survival Israeli Jews have learned to ensure the survival of Israeli Jews.

The State of Israel has been at war for sixty-four years. Its enemies penetrate Israel’s borders to perpetrate genocidal rocket attacks, genocidal homicide bombings murders, and periodic armed attacks by overwhelmingly numerically-superior organized military forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon, backed by Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and other nations. The moment Israel lets down its guard, Israel seals its doom.

Your European “brothers” in Germany, aided and abetted by your European “brothers” throughout mainland Europe, managed to exterminate six million Jews in less than six years. Prior to September 1939, eighteen million Jews lived worldwide; by September 1945, twelve million Jews, two thirds, survived. That’s genocide by Europeans, your European “brothers”. Today, the de-Jewification of Europe remains fact. Perhaps that is not of concern to Europeans. It is of concern to me.

Of surviving Jews today, approximately thirteen million four hundred thousand precious human souls, about six million live and thrive as respected and honored citizens of my United States of America. Over here, we generally don’t exterminate Jews; we embrace them as fellow humans and citizens.
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by astradt1 on Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:06 pm

Europeans’ de-Jewification of Europe was completed by 1945,

So there are no Jews living in Europe?????



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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:41 pm

Is anti-semitism an expression of racial hatred?
How might "pro-semitism" be described by a zealot?
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:46 pm

Duplicate posting in error. Delete please.


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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:16 pm

Seen it all before. Next!
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:47 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?
by RockOnBrother on Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 23:52

Perhaps many Europeans’ disdain for Israel’s internal and external security stems from modern Europeans’ familial ties with recent and not-so-recent ancestral family members who either participated in or did not effectively oppose the de-Jewification of their homelands.
Holocaust Encyclopedia

Before the Nazi takeover of power in 1933, Europe had a vibrant and mature Jewish culture. By 1945, most European Jews--two out of every three--had been killed. Most of the surviving remnant of European Jewry decided to leave Europe. Hundreds of thousands established new lives in Israel, the United States, Canada, Australia, Great Britain, South America, and South Africa.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Copyright © United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, DC
Terms of Use
Use of Content from this Web Site
The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (“Museum”) invites its Web visitors to use the content of its Web site for personal, educational, and other noncommercial purposes. By using this Web site, you agree to abide by the following terms.

Full text: http://www.ushmm.org/priv_acc/terms/


The de-Jewification of Europe, by the numbers, 1933 to 1950, 1933 to the present.


Figure #1a

Comparisons 1933-1950, 1933-present, Jewish populations by European nations

Nation 1933 1950 Present Difference 1933-1950 Percent, 1950/1933 Difference 1933-Present Percent, Present/1933
Poland 3,000,000 45,000 3,200 -2,955,000 1.50% -2,996,800 0.11%
Romania 980,000 280,000 9,700 -700,000 28.57% -970,300 0.99%
Germany 565,000 37,000 119,000 -528,000 6.55% -446,000 21.06%
Hungary 445,000 190,000 48,600 -255,000 42.70% -396,400 10.92%
United Kingdom 300,000 450,000 292,000 150,000 150.00% -8,000 97.33%
Austria 250,000 18,000 9,000 -232,000 7.20% -241,000 3.60%
France 225,000 235,000 483,500 10,000 104.44% 258,500 214.89%
Bulgaria 50,000 6,500 1,400 -43,500 13.00% -48,600 2.80%
Italy 48,000 35,000 28,400 -13,000 72.92% -19,600 59.17%
Total 5,863,000 1,296,500 994,800 -4,566,500 22.11% -4,868,200 16.97%

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Figure #2b

Comparisons 1933-1950 Jewish populations by European nations

Nation 1933 1950 Difference 1933-1950 Percent, 1950/1933
Poland 3,000,000 45,000 -2,955,000 1.50%
Soviet Union (Europe) 2,525,000 2,000,000 -525,000 79.21%
Romania 980,000 280,000 -700,000 28.57%
Germany 565,000 37,000 -528,000 6.55%
Hungary 445,000 190,000 -255,000 42.70%
Czechoslovakia 357,000 17,000 -340,000 4.76%
United Kingdom 300,000 450,000 150,000 150.00%
Austria 250,000 18,000 -232,000 7.20%
France 225,000 235,000 10,000 104.44%
Greece 100,000 7,000 -93,000 7.00%
Yugoslavia 70,000 3,500 -66,500 5.00%
Bulgaria 50,000 6,500 -43,500 13.00%
Italy 48,000 35,000 -13,000 72.92%
Total 8,915,000 3,324,000 -5,591,000 37.29%

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Figure #3c

Comparisons 1933-Present Jewish populations by European nations

Nation 1933 Present Difference 1933-Present Percent, Present/1933
Poland 3,000,000 3,200 -2,996,800 0.11%
Soviet Union (Europe)d 2,525,000 325,100 -2,199,900 12.88%
Romania 980,000 9,700 -970,300 0.99%
Germany 565,000 119,000 -446,000 21.06%
Hungary 445,000 48,600 -396,400 10.92%
United Kingdom 300,000 292,000 -8,000 97.33%
Austria 250,000 9,000 -241,000 3.60%
France 225,000 483,500 258,500 214.89%
The Netherlands 156,000 30,000 -126,000 19.23%
Lithuania 155,000 4,000 -151,000 2.58%
Latvia 95,600 10,385 -85,215 10.86%
Yugoslaviae 70,000 3,100 -66,900 4.43%
Belgium 60,000 30,300 -29,700 50.50%
Bulgaria 50,000 1,400 -48,600 2.80%
Italy 48,000 28,400 -19,600 59.17%
Sweden 6,700 15,000 8,300 223.88%
Denmark 5,700 6,400 700 112.28%
Estonia 4,600 2,100 -2,500 45.65%
Spain 4,000 12,000 8,000 300.00%
Portugal 1,200 500 -700 41.67%
Total 8,946,800 1,433,685 -7,513,115 16.02%

  1. Includes nations for which 1933, 1950, and current Jewish populations are available.
  2. Includes nations for which 1933 and 1950 Jewish populations are available.
  3. Includes nations for which 1933 and present Jewish populations are available.
  4. Present Jewish populations of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.
  5. Present Jewish populations of Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbia.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Delimitation: Jewish population data not found for all European nations for all sampled time frames, 1933, 1950, and the present. Jewish population data listed under “present” is the most recent data found, usually from 2010 or later.

Due to Forumotion’s formatting limitations, Figures #1, #2, and #3 do not transfer to Cutting Edge as charts. Last row of each figure is explained below.

  • Figure #1: Total Jewish populations of listed European nations for 1933 (5,863,000), 1950 (1,296,500), and the present (994,800); total population difference 1933-1950 (-4,566,500); percent, 1950/1933 (22.11%); total population difference, 1933-present (-4,868,200); percent, present/1933 (16.97%).

    In figure #1, from 1933 to 1950, the listed European nations’ total Jewish population decreased from 5,863,000 to 1,296,500, a 4,566,500 drop-off. The 1950 total was 22.11% of the 1933 total.

    In figure #1, from 1933 to the present, the listed European nations’ total Jewish population decreased from 5,863,000 to 994,800, a 4,868,200 drop. The present total is 16.97% of the 1933 total.


  • Figure #2: Total Jewish populations of listed European nations for 1933 (8,915,000), and 1950 (3,324,000); total population difference 1933-1950 (-5,591,000); percent, 1950/1933 (37.29%).

    In figure #2, from 1933 to 1950, the listed European nations’ total Jewish population decreased from 8,915,000 to 3,324,000, a 5,591,000 drop. The 1950 total was 37.29% of the 1933 total.


  • Figure #3: Total Jewish populations of listed European nations for 1933 (8,946,800), and the present (1,433,685); total population difference, 1933-present (-7,513,115); percent, present/1933 ().

    In figure #3, from 1933 to the present, the listed European nations’ total Jewish population decreased from 8,946,800 to 1,433,685, a 7,513,115 drop. The present total is 16.02% of the 1933 total.



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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:29 am

When does an interest in something become a fixation?
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by astradt1 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:46 pm

I wonder what the figures for the Jewish population of the USA 1933 to the Present is?

By 1945, most European Jews--two out of every three--had been killed. Most of the surviving remnant of European Jewry decided to leave Europe. Hundreds of thousands established new lives in Israel, the United States, Canada, Australia, Great Britain, South America, and South Africa.

That’s genocide by Europeans, your European “brothers”. Today, the de-Jewification of Europe remains fact.

Don't you just love Roc's broad sweeping statements
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astradt1
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:01 pm

This may be the point at which someone brings the thread back to the topic, "Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons." It's a very patronising choice of words, which assumes that an affirmative answer is both logical and enforceable.

There's a very old story about a colony of mice who were being terrorised by a cat, and held a discussion in which it was determined to put a bell around the cat's neck so as to provide ample warning of its approach.

An older and wiser mouse then asked, "But who is going to attach the bell to the cat?"
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Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

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