I am a pro-European, but..?

by Ivanhoe Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:26 pm

When Tony Blair held Presidency of the EU in 2005, he secured three opt-out vetos for Britain, these were and are called red lines.

Tony Blair secured our opt out that the British would not pay Europe's higher income tax rates.

He secured that UK pensioners would not receive the EU's much higher State pension rates.

And Mr Blair secured that the British people would not receive the EU's much higher and non means tested welfare State payments.

It is a fact that Britain is a "low income tax" nation, hence increases in local council tax and all the stealth taxes like increases in petrol, which are crippling the rest of us while the rich are not effected. But these stealth taxes combined with income tax, make Britain a high tax nation, which our politicians refuse to admit.

It is a fact that our pensioners receive the lowest State pension in Europe.

It is a fact that the British unemployed receive the lowest means tested welfare payments compared to our European counterparts.

Naturally none of these points are ever discussed in the media.

Thatcher, Blair, Brown, and now Cameron and Clegg, are the most evil people ever to run Britain.

And you can be sure of one thing, that whatever little games David Cameron plays regarding whatever power he has in Europe, which in my view is none, nothing he will achieve will help the poorest people in this country, because we do not have the Euro, neither do we share in Europe's social and economical standards which are enshrined in the European Social Charter

So, what has Britain got to lose by coming out of Europe ?
.

.

by oftenwrong Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:24 pm

If you think things are bad, just wait until the UKIP tendency take us out of Europe altogether.

Those too young to remember Post-War Austerity will have another chance to see it.

(Who has kept their Ration Book as a souvenir?)

by Ivanhoe Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:24 pm

oftenwrong wrote:If you think things are bad, just wait until the UKIP tendency take us out of Europe altogether.

Those too young to remember Post-War Austerity will have another chance to see it.

(Who has kept their Ration Book as a souvenir?)

I wish they would. I would love to see the UKIP take us completely out of Europe, and then, just like the Tory's, continue with their equally right wing agenda which means a continuing lack of a British Industrial and manufacturing base, and being completely out of Europe, we would lose all EU connections via the single market.

by kentdougal Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:04 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:If you think things are bad, just wait until the UKIP tendency take us out of Europe altogether.

Those too young to remember Post-War Austerity will have another chance to see it.

(Who has kept their Ration Book as a souvenir?)

I wish they would. I would love to see the UKIP take us completely out of Europe, and then, just like the Tory's, continue with their equally right wing agenda which means a continuing lack of a British Industrial and manufacturing base, and being completely out of Europe, we would lose all EU connections via the single market.

What a load of twaddle the same scare about our biggest market become like Switzerland(nothing wrong with that!) etc.Well we are NOT Switzerland or Norway or Austria we are Europe's biggest market. We buy far more from them than they do from us. There is no way they would want or afford to lose that market. Any attempt at trade barriers or protectionist import duties would cost them far more than it does us. Just relax their problem is sorting out the unsortable Euro for which the current little smoke screen is doing nothing but trying to delay the inevitable

by Ivanhoe Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:28 pm

////we are Europe's biggest market///

Sorry, but Europe could lose us overnight and they would lose nothing. Because we are nothing, and we have nothing, except our big egos.

Now the EU leaders are moving away from us, and there isnt a darn thing we can do about it.

by oftenwrong Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:37 pm

Some of my best friends are European

by Penderyn Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:42 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Some of my best friends are European

Were. We live under the city now: learn to eat grass and do without friends!

by oftenwrong Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:03 pm

My pin-stripe suit wards off evil forces.

by atv Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:14 pm

I too am a pro European but,
What do we actually gain by being part of the EU? we currently pay the EU about £65Billion a year, yet our exports are are under £27Billion a year and imports less than £35Billion so we buy more than we sell so we're needed more than they need us. Why don't we save the £65Billion and put it into building up our own manufacturing, mining and farming businesses and make ourselves as self-sufficient as possible and create millions of jobs while we're at it? Granted it'd be the end of the EU gravy train for ex-politicians and senior civil servants/officials but thats a small price to pay.

Going it alone won't be easy. Every obstacle will be put in our path — including trade barriers.

But with Britain importing more in goods than we export, Europe's traders need us more than we need them.
The danger for Brussels is that we thrive if Europe sinks into permanent recession and others to peel off and join us. We can watch as the markets crucify debt-ridden Greece, then Portugal, then Spain and possibly Italy and even France.
Just a thought

by Ivanhoe Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:02 pm

atv wrote:I too am a pro European but,
What do we actually gain by being part of the EU? we currently pay the EU about £65Billion a year, yet our exports are are under £27Billion a year and imports less than £35Billion so we buy more than we sell so we're needed more than they need us. Why don't we save the £65Billion and put it into building up our own manufacturing, mining and farming businesses and make ourselves as self-sufficient as possible and create millions of jobs while we're at it? Granted it'd be the end of the EU gravy train for ex-politicians and senior civil servants/officials but thats a small price to pay.

Going it alone won't be easy. Every obstacle will be put in our path — including trade barriers.

But with Britain importing more in goods than we export, Europe's traders need us more than we need them.
The danger for Brussels is that we thrive if Europe sinks into permanent recession and others to peel off and join us. We can watch as the markets crucify debt-ridden Greece, then Portugal, then Spain and possibly Italy and even France.
Just a thought

"Why dont we" ?????. I will tell you why ?

Because we have had right wing Government's since Thatcher, and they do not believe in long term investment, manufacturing, or industry.

The right wing believe in the short term, low waged, insecure workforce Britain is.

The right wing rule by fear, insecurity, and political ignorance. And they are getting away with it.

by Guest Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:01 pm

Can one not also be pro-UK, pro-Commonwealth, and pro-Anglo-American?

by oftenwrong Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:23 pm

Anglo American? What about us non-smokers?

by kentdougal Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:40 am

////we are Europe's biggest market///

Sorry, but Europe could lose us overnight and they would lose nothing. Because we are nothing, and we have nothing, except our big egos.

Now the EU leaders are moving away from us, and there isnt a darn thing we can do about it.[/quote]#

More twaddle if have you no national pride if you're so intent on putting this country down why don't you eff off somewhere else. As I and others now have pointed we are a massive market for the rest of Europe our contributions help to maintain the hugely inefficient all powerful French farmers with enormous subsidies we have sacrificed our native fishing industry. How big is the ego of France led by a dwarf who also abused the Euro regulations helping it's collapse. Get into the real world and start being a bit positive for a change

by Ivanhoe Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:41 am

kentdougal wrote:

////we are Europe's biggest market///

Sorry, but Europe could lose us overnight and they would lose nothing. Because we are nothing, and we have nothing, except our big egos.

Now the EU leaders are moving away from us, and there isnt a darn thing we can do about it.

#

More twaddle if have you no national pride if you're so intent on putting this country down why don't you eff off somewhere else. As I and others now have pointed we are a massive market for the rest of Europe our contributions help to maintain the hugely inefficient all powerful French farmers with enormous subsidies we have sacrificed our native fishing industry. How big is the ego of France led by a dwarf who also abused the Euro regulations helping it's collapse. Get into the real world and start being a bit positive for a change[/quote]

Millions of old people are living in poverty due to this countries abysmal basic State pension. Millions are losing their jobs due to right wing Tory ideoligy.

Thousands of people are homeless and being made homeless, and thousands are living on the streets.

And you have a national pride ?????????????????

Wake up and smell the stench cause by right wing Government's since the 80's, including New Labour, of constant low waged, short term, insecure, free market deregulation starting with Thatcher, in the 80's.

by oftenwrong Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:32 am

I am not responsible for the actions of my Government. I shall do my best to evict the present charlatan opportunist Pretenders at the earliest opportunity.

But that doesn't diminish any sense of being British.

Quite the reverse!

by Ivanhoe Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:53 am

oftenwrong wrote:I am not responsible for the actions of my Government. I shall do my best to evict the present charlatan opportunist Pretenders at the earliest opportunity.

But that doesn't diminish any sense of being British.

Quite the reverse!

You are if you voted for them.

by oftenwrong Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:04 pm

From what evidence do you conclude that there is the remotest possibility that I might have placed a vote in favour of the current administration?

I'm fascinated. (I don't actually own a pin-stripe suit, BTW)

by keenobserver1 Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:31 pm

OW-Having witnessed you posts over a long period of time, it would appear that you wish to be in perpetual opposittion. Rolling Eyes

by Ivanhoe Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:42 pm

oftenwrong wrote:From what evidence do you conclude that there is the remotest possibility that I might have placed a vote in favour of the current administration?

I'm fascinated. (I don't actually own a pin-stripe suit, BTW)

The word I used was "if" ?

by Guest Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:55 pm

Posted in error. Moderator, please delete this post.

by Guest Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:56 pm

kentdougal wrote:
... we are a massive market for the rest of Europe our contributions help to maintain the hugely inefficient all powerful French farmers with enormous subsidies we have sacrificed our native fishing industry.

Please explain this in detail.

kentdougal wrote:
How big is the ego of France…

Huge, given the inescapable fact that France exists because of illegal immigrants flooding ashore sans French approval… on 6 June 1944, at five locations, at three of which illegal British and Canadian nationals swarmed ashore with no regard of their lack for French government approval.

I couldn’t resist that, given the two stories I’ve heard, recreated here from memory.

1. An American teacher is confronted and denied entrance by a French immigration official at De Gaulle airport because his papers aren’t pristine.

The American says, “Gee, the last time I came here, my papers weren’t in order, and I wasn’t denied entrance.”

The French official pompously says, “Impossible! France NEVER permits foreigners entrance without papers perfectly in order.”

The American says “Oh, I didn’t know that. Maybe I missed the checkpoint at Omaha Beach.”

2. Foreigner, on a Paris street, in French (translated): “Sir, can you tell me how to get to some street or the other?

Frenchman, with disdain: I can’t understand the garbage coming from your mouth.”

Foreigner: “No one seemed to have a problem understanding me at Juno Beach.”
http://www.wwii.ca/mediacat-9.html

by Penderyn Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:19 pm

kentdougal wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:If you think things are bad, just wait until the UKIP tendency take us out of Europe altogether.

Those too young to remember Post-War Austerity will have another chance to see it.

(Who has kept their Ration Book as a souvenir?)

I wish they would. I would love to see the UKIP take us completely out of Europe, and then, just like the Tory's, continue with their equally right wing agenda which means a continuing lack of a British Industrial and manufacturing base, and being completely out of Europe, we would lose all EU connections via the single market.
What a load of twaddle the same scare about our biggest market become like Switzerland(nothing wrong with that!) etc.Well we are NOT Switzerland or Norway or Austria we are Europe's biggest market. We buy far more from them than they do from us. There is no way they would want or afford to lose that market. Any attempt at trade barriers or protectionist import duties would cost them far more than it does us. Just relax their problem is sorting out the unsortable Euro for which the current little smoke screen is doing nothing but trying to delay the inevitable

But surely, since the tories are continuing Thatcher's work of destroying British industry, we won't have anything to trade with - just a lot of gambling crooks passing our money around?

by oftenwrong Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:59 pm

The British Motor Industry is thriving, and exporting its products to a willing world of buyers who, like the Manufacturers, are either Japanese or Indian.

by astra Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:49 am

OW!

Yer missed oot the Chinese!

by kentdougal Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:56 am

oftenwrong wrote:The British Motor Industry is thriving, and exporting its products to a willing world of buyers who, like the Manufacturers, are either Japanese or Indian.

Not the Japs they've been bust with zero interest rates for years. Indians maybe, rich on the money we borrow to supply them with overseas aid.However I think you may find that 'thriving' may be a bit of an overstatement when describing the motor industry

by oftenwrong Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:59 am

If Nissan, Honda, Jaguar Land Rover et al were not thriving, why are they still in the UK?

It's presumably not for the climate.

by Ivanhoe Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:06 am

oftenwrong wrote:If Nissan, Honda, Jaguar Land Rover et al were not thriving, why are they still in the UK?

It's presumably not for the climate.

Who says they are thriving ?

by Penderyn Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:05 pm

oftenwrong wrote:If Nissan, Honda, Jaguar Land Rover et al were not thriving, why are they still in the UK?

It's presumably not for the climate.

Few tsunamis, small earthquakes, quisling government?

by oftenwrong Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:43 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:If Nissan, Honda, Jaguar Land Rover et al were not thriving, why are they still in the UK?

It's presumably not for the climate.

Who says they are thriving ?

What's the evidence that they are not? Add (BMW) Mini to the list.

by bobby Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:48 pm

Rockonbrother.

In 1966 when British/American relations with France was at a low (De Gaulle was in Power)He ordered all foreign troop out of France, stating , he would not allow French troops bow to American command. He De Gaulle Telephoned L B Johnson informing him that France was opting out of NATO and that consiquently all American military Personnel had to leave France. Taking part in the conference call was The US Secretary of State Dean Rusk.
Johnson told Rusk to reply "Does that include those buried in it"

by Guest Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:55 pm

Bobby,

Mr. Rusk could’ve asked about our British and Canadian brothers also buried in “foreign” French soil.

There was Dunkirk, there was the Battle of Britain, there was the London blitz, there was the Battle of the Atlantic (also waged by RCN ships and aircraft), but there was no Vichy Britain.

And not to forget our Anzac brothers also buried in France, there was Port Moresby, but there was no Vichy Australia.

Thank you for that anecdote. I’ll add it to the trove of responses to the “All-Things-French-are-holy” platitudes of the occasional Francophile I encounter.

by oftenwrong Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:17 pm

What do they know of England,
Who only England know?

Kipling

by astra Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:01 pm

There was a conference in France where a number of international engineers were taking part, including French and American. During a break, one of the French engineers came back into the room saying 'Have you heard the latest dumb stunt Bush has done? He has sent an aircraft carrier to Indonesia to help the tsunami victims. What does he intended to do, bomb them?'

A Boeing engineer stood up and replied quietly:

'Our carriers have three hospitals on board that can treat several hundred people; they are nuclear powered and can supply
Emergency electrical power to shore facilities; they have three cafeterias with the capacity to feed 3,000 people three meals a day,
They can produce several thousand gallons of fresh water from sea water each day, and they carry half a dozen helicopters for use in transporting victims and injured to and from their flight deck. We have eleven such ships; how many does France have?'

You could have
Heard a pin drop.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Royal Navy Admiral was attending a naval conference that included Admirals from the English, U.S. , Canadian, Australian and French Navies. At a cocktail reception, he found himself standing with a large group of Officers that included personnel from most of those countries. Everyone was chatting away in English as they sipped their drinks but a French admiral suddenly complained that, whereas Europeans learn many languages, the English learn only English. He then asked, 'Why is it that we always have to speak English in these conferences rather than speaking French?'

Without hesitating, the British Admiral replied,

'Maybe it's because the Brit's, Canadians, Aussie's and Americans arranged it so you wouldn't have to speak German..'

by bobby Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:20 pm

Rockonbrother, May I recomend a book to you, as you did preveously admit to you distrust of the Froggies.
1000 Years of Annoying the French, by Stephen Clarke, Bantam Press.
A real eye opener for any Francophobe.

by bobby Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:28 pm

V, the language of all international airports is English Albeit English is the recognised language the French still use French in their airports, not only that but Quebec airport and others in the French parts of Canada also. Theres something about the Frenchies isn't there. I dont mind a bit of arrogance so long as there is something to be arrogant about. The Frogs have bugger all so should know there place.

by Guest Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:32 pm

Bobby,

I shall find it. Notice Astra's right-on-point comments above your post.

"You cannot overfly sacred French soil to reign in Gadafhi." One F-111 crew never returned. Their blood stains the French. Perhaps Shirina will give the despicable details.

by astra Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:00 pm

V, the language of all international airports is English Albeit English is the recognised language the French still use French in their airports, not only that but Quebec airport and others in the French parts of Canada also. Theres something about the Frenchies isn't there. I dont mind a bit of arrogance so long as there is something to be arrogant about. The Frogs have bugger all so should know there place.

Theres something about the Frenchies isn't there. I dont mind a bit of arrogance so long as there is something to be arrogant about

Bobby HELLO Smile

Still here!

The French are NOT the only ones in this arrogance toward the Brits!

The GErman Companies who own Rail infrastructure maintenance contracts, Rail Operating Companies Deutch Bahn, DB Schenker Rail (UK) Ltd, Siemens, DB Regio Tyne and Wear, and a few more ALL say that employees now HAVE to learn 'O' Level Kraut to KEEP their jobs!! New starts will need to speak the lingo! If Westinghouse laid that down in Freidrichshaven, there would be hell on!

by bobby Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:08 pm

V, I remember some years ago, in Thatchers time, where any new employee had to have GCSE's just to dig holes in the road, their reasons where that they promote from within, and wanted to make sure that all their emplyee's could reach their full potential. The fact that we then just as now had millions of Tory created unemployed of course had nothing to do with it.
By the way are you keeping well?

by astra Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:32 pm

Doing fine Bobby thanks, doing as I'm TOLD for once!! Razz

As you said, English is the language of the air, but German will now be the lingo of the British Rail companies, (they say it is for company "fluidity". Actually it saves writing wiring diagrams in both languages, instructions in both languages ie, saves money and SAFETY can go to Hell in a handcart! (British people CANNOT read signs in English at permissive pedestrian crossings OR at Rail crossings, either WITH or WITHOUT barriers/gates, so how this is going to pan out is going to be fun for coroners!! Sorry but I can find no other way to express the seriousness of the dangers I feel are inherent and looming up on us!

by oftenwrong Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:52 pm

"Sabotage" is not a word from English, but amply demonstrates our attitude to imposed foreign interference.

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