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Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

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Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Ivan on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:59 am

A study at Stanford University in California found that the Jesus of liberal Christians is very different from the one envisaged by conservatives. The researchers asked respondents to imagine what Jesus would have thought about contemporary issues such as taxation, immigration, same-sex marriage and abortion. Christian Republicans imagined a Jesus who was against wealth redistribution, illegal immigrants, abortion and same-sex marriage, while the Jesus of Democrat-voting Christians would have had far more liberal opinions.

Johnjoe McFadden, writing in ‘The Guardian’ says: “Conservatives envisaged a Jesus with views close to their own on morality issues; but they recognised that the man who gave all his possessions to the poor would probably have advocated more progressive taxation policies than those of the Republican Party. Conversely, liberals saw Jesus as having similar views as themselves on fellowship issues but they believed his views on gay rights would be to the right of their own.”

It seems that while the Bible claims that God created man in his own image, this Stanford University study suggests man creates God in his own image.

For the full article:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/mar/04/jesus-liberals-conservatives
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Shirina on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:25 am

Everyone simply wants to claim Jesus as their own.

If Jesus understood the modern world with its overpopulation and cruelty to unwanted children, he might be lenient on abortion but I doubt he would give it a carte blanche blessing. In fact, I think he would modify or lift many of the "old rules" found in the Bible as many of them no longer apply. I feel Jesus would definitely frown at conservatives hating on poor people, and the right-wing Social Darwinist approach to life would, beyond a doubt, raise Jesus's ire. I also believe Jesus would put his hands on his hips and glare, asking, "Why is America, a nation so bent on claiming me as her own, the only advanced nation on earth without a NHS system? Did I not cure the sick and heal the blind free of charge? Did you see me asking for anyone's insurance card?"
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:41 am

by Ivan Today at 12:59 am
A study at Stanford University in California found that the Jesus of liberal Christians is very different from the one envisaged by conservatives. The researchers asked respondents to imagine what Jesus would have thought about contemporary issues such as taxation, immigration, same-sex marriage and abortion. Christian Republicans imagined a Jesus who was against wealth redistribution, illegal immigrants, abortion and same-sex marriage, while the Jesus of Democrat-voting Christians would have had far more liberal opinions.

Johnjoe McFadden, writing in ‘The Guardian’ says: “Conservatives envisaged a Jesus with views close to their own on morality issues; but they recognised that the man who gave all his possessions to the poor would probably have advocated more progressive taxation policies than those of the Republican Party. Conversely, liberals saw Jesus as having similar views as themselves on fellowship issues but they believed his views on gay rights would be to the right of their own.”

It seems that while the Bible claims that God created man in his own image, this Stanford University study suggests man creates God in his own image.

Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

by Shirina Today at 4:25 am
Everyone simply wants to claim Jesus as their own.

If Jesus understood the modern world with its overpopulation and cruelty to unwanted children, he might be lenient on abortion but I doubt he would give it a carte blanche blessing. In fact, I think he would modify or lift many of the "old rules" found in the Bible as many of them no longer apply. I feel Jesus would definitely frown at conservatives hating on poor people, and the right-wing Social Darwinist approach to life would, beyond a doubt, raise Jesus's ire. I also believe Jesus would put his hands on his hips and glare, asking, "Why is America, a nation so bent on claiming me as her own, the only advanced nation on earth without a NHS system? Did I not cure the sick and heal the blind free of charge? Did you see me asking for anyone's insurance card?"
Wow. 2 replies in one. That's value for money.

Shirina, I know Jesus walked on water, but Jerusalem to New York is a bit far.lol!

Simple reply to both. There's nothing wrong with Christianity when it's 'CHRISTS-IANITY'. It's when it becomes MY CHRISTIAN-ITY that problems arise.

Oh. Biblical rules. Women should keep silent in church. That's why we gag our women at the entrance to the church. Wink Well, it stops the nagging as well. No
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:49 am

Incidentally a child was asked. 'What is a female Vicar.' To which the child replied 'A vixen'. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:shock:
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by bobby on Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:43 am

, I know Jesus walked on water

I dont care if he walks on water, so long as he doesn't do it where i'm fishing.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:10 pm

I dont care if he walks on water, so long as he doesn't do it where i'm fishing.

Another angler?

Apparently in one case the disciples were told to cast their nets in the sea and got a boat load of fish. But then in another case they could only find 5 loaves and 2 small fish. Smile

Looked at my rods this week but its toooooo c-c-c-c-c-c-cold.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by blueturando on Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:58 pm

It seems that while the Bible claims that God created man in his own image, this Stanford University study suggests man creates God in his own image

I think you hit the nail on the head here Ivan

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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:07 pm

6.998 billion people in the world ..............

6.998 billion images of The Creator.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Ivan on Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:58 pm

And there are 9 million bicycles in Beijing, or so Katie Melua reckons!

According to Demos, religious people are more likely to be left wing, which hardly squares with the hijacking of religion by the Republican Party in the USA and the activities of the pro-life lobbies elsewhere.

Here is the article:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/08/religious-people-more-likely-leftwing-demos?CMP=twt_gu



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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:18 am

Pfftttt he didn't walk on water...don't be silly...not even david blaine can do that!!! Oh I've had two pints of lager and two vodka and cokes so my brain ain't firing to it's full capacity, but really...this jesus myth just plain gives me wind!It's caused more trouble than our cat in a sack with next doors dog it has! I believe in science....he'd have sunk, coz the surface tension wouldn't have floated him... Wink Jesus, yes, probably a thoroughly decent chap, but he walked on land like the rest of us! Razz
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:59 pm

May just have been the first recorded sighting of an infinity pool.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Papaumau on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:54 pm


I think that if we think more about that question we have to concede that the further left we go the closer we get to atheism and to no recognition of Jesus - or God - at all.

Maybe is is just coincidence that I am from left-of-centre politically and also an atheist but I do think that the further people move in that political direction the clearer their thinking seems to be.

Mind you, once the move to the left is completed and Communism takes hold I do think that real-life goes out of the equation.

Being a strong anti-extremist, ( does that make me an extremist too ? ), I have always felt that a healthy feeling for the needs of the proletariat mostly comes from the left-wing while selfishness and greed is bred into the ones who wander to the right. Whether that makes them better or worse Christians or Jews or Muslims et-al or not, I don't know; all I know is that that guy in the long dress has not done me or mine any good whatsoever and that the support for fictitious Gods and their earthly prophets is just effort wasted without any practical advantages gained.

Regards....

Papa.


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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by astra on Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:23 pm

and that the support for fictitious Gods and their earthly prophets is just effort wasted without any practical advantages gained.


But it allways make for a comfortable living for the protaganists!

Even back in the mists of time, the Shennachie, Bards, Wizards, Druids and Witch Doctors were ALL well looked after by the community/tribe/clan.

ministers and priests are no different now.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by ROB on Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:59 pm

Papaumau wrote:
I think that if we think more about that question we have to concede that the further left we go the closer we get to atheism and to no recognition of Jesus - or God - at all.

… a healthy feeling for the needs of the proletariat mostly comes from the left-wing…

… all I know is that that guy in the long dress has not done me or mine any good whatsoever…

Papaumau,

Did William Wilberforce and Martin Luther King Jr. wear some of those? Just asking.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:32 pm

Usually, people wear distinctive clothing for a personal reason.

Soldiers wear uniform so that they can kill anonymously.

"Show-biz" people wear costume to make a living, and come to think of it you can often place religious folk in that category too.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:56 pm

QUOTE: "According to Demos, religious people are more likely to be left wing."

Which really says all you need to know about statisticians and/or pollsters.
"Christian belief" is roughly comparable with Socialist principles to the extent that do as you would be done by sounds like a good way to lead your life. Whereas Devil take the hindmost probably expresses the alternate view.

Where it gets complicated is in the simple fact that The Church is part of the Establishment, still phenomenally wealthy in its own right, and accordingly as interested in maintaining the Status Quo as any other Landowner.

Witness the crisis of indecision at the front of St. Pauls cathedral recently.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Jill Segger on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:45 am

Assuming that the teachings of an Iron Age Palestinian Rabbi can be fitted into our 21st century categories is perhaps dodgy ground. What I see in the way of Jesus are radical inversions, the choice to keep company with some of society's outcasts and a dim view of the religious establishment of the day. "Go and do likewise".
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:31 pm

A belief which is rooted in the remnants of ancient scriptures penned in various languages some centuries after the event they record, might be capable of explaining just about anything and everything which the human mind can comprehend.




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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:06 pm

bobby wrote:, I know Jesus walked on water

I dont care if he walks on water, so long as he doesn't do it where i'm fishing.

I'd be very vexed too if someone walked over my line when I was after a brownie! Twisted Evil I love fishing, my Dad taught me with a stick and a bit of line when I was five, and then when I was six he bought me a lovely white rod with red cotton binding and a blue mitchell real. Been hooked ever since!
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Ivan on Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:17 pm

How would Jesus vote?

Extracts from an article by Paula Kirby:-

"Far from emphasizing the importance of wealth-creation, Jesus repeatedly told his followers to forsake it; that it would get in the way of their relationship with God. His advice to a wealthy would-be disciple? Sell all you have and give it to the poor. No sign here that he thought of the poor as being to blame for their own predicament, people to be frowned on, people who did not deserve to have their well-being taken into account. Suppose Jesus really were alive today. Would he despise the poor? Ignore their needs? Begrudge their miserable welfare hand-outs? Cheer at the idea of letting the uninsured die of disease?

When did the Jesus of the Gospels ever proclaim that the poor and sick and unfortunate do not deserve your compassion? That you are not your brother’s keeper? That paying tax is an abomination?

The sight of American Christians in full self-righteous fervor, working themselves up into a rage over other people’s beliefs and other people’s sexuality, is hard to reconcile with the Jesus of the Gospels, whose anger was almost exclusively reserved for those who dared to judge and look down on others.

Romney, of course, is a Mormon. But many of those who support the right-wing politics he espouses will be mainstream Christians. Christians, it must be said, whose Bibles must contain very different accounts of Jesus’s teachings than the one on my bookshelf."


For the rest of the article:-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/how-would-jesus-vote/2012/08/03/4333312a-ddc2-11e1-8e43-4a3c4375504a_blog.html
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:51 pm

The handful of people I know to be practising Christians observe the tithe - that is to say they give ten percent of their personal income to The Church.

Most other religions have a corresponding custom. Some Hindu men follow a discipline under which they are described as Sannyasin once they reach retirement age and have dutifully produced a family. Sannyasin (Sanskrit) [from sam together with + ni-as to reject, resign worldly life] One who abandons or sets aside worldly affairs and fixes his mind upon the attainment of mystic knowledge; more commonly, a devotee, ascetic, one who has renounced all worldly concerns and devotes himself to spiritual meditation and the study of the Upanishads, as also does a Brahmin in the fourth stage of his life. The sannyasin is one who practices sannyasas.

In their own Country they live adequately by means of their begging-bowl but it's not easy to imagine that working very well in our Capitalist society.

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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Shirina on Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:33 pm

I think I've mentioned before that American Christianity is based on Puritanical beliefs - a strict interpretation of the Bible, mainly the Old Testament. For a nation that wears the notion of "freedom" on its sleeve, we are one of the least free nations in the industrialized world should you not follow mainstream beliefs. We claim to be a tolerant, freedom-loving, diverse nation while, at the same time, many people want nothing more than to persecute anyone who actually embraces tolerance, freedom, and diversity. We've had to go through this countless times - slavery, civil rights, women's suffrage, gay rights, and if gays get their way, the Christians will be coming after the liberals and atheists next. And whether liberals and atheists win that fight, it won't matter. Next on the hit list will be fat people (and that is already starting to materialize). That's assuming they don't go back to persecuting women (another group in the crosshairs).

Never, not once in American history, has there NOT been a group being demonized by conservative white Christians.

How would Jesus vote? My guess is that he would vote as an Independent. He would come in and say, "Republicans, you have ignored my teachings and failed to learn from my examples. You mock my name by calling yourselves Christians. You will not receive my vote. Democrats, you need to know when the sword is called for. You try too hard to appease those who who have shunned me and thus your efforts at emulating me have always amounted to little more than lip service. Thus, you will not receive my vote."

But if Jesus were to be classified within a specific political ideology, there is no doubt ... NO doubt ... that Jesus would be a liberal bordering on a communist with very left-wing views. If he had been a conservative right-winger, especially an American one, Jesus would have ended up ruling Rome, living in a posh mansion, and making a lavish fortune selling his miracles to the highest bidder.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Mel on Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:36 pm

I am not thought to be a highly religious man, however, I have to say I feel rather sad at reading these posts. Perhaps I am a true socialist at heart, which IMO comes from my belief in Christianity.
I can understand to some extent why people become atheistic and yet I prefer to believe for many reasons that God exists, perhaps in the form of mother nature itself. No man has been able to prove that Jesus existed, then again no man has proven he did not exist. One makes one's choice and gets on with it and accepts others views as one's own view is hoped to be respected.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by ROB on Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:11 am

Ivan wrote:
How would Jesus vote?

Extracts from an article by Paula Kirby:-

"Far from emphasizing the importance of wealth-creation, Jesus repeatedly told his followers to forsake it; that it would get in the way of their relationship with God. His advice to a wealthy would-be disciple? Sell all you have and give it to the poor.1 No sign here that he thought of the poor1 as being to blame for their own predicament, people to be frowned on, people who did not deserve to have their well-being taken into account."
 

  1. Which “poor”, ptochos or penes?



Relevant question, as the poor of Jesus’ time and place are not the preponderance of the poor in 21st Century United States of America.

Two friends went to India; one in 1988, the other in 2003. Both returned with a different attitude-in-common toward American USV street beggars. Compassion demonstrated by action for the poor in Calcutta (1988) and Mumbai (2003); both gave every day as he had money/sustenance to give. Neither was left with compassion for American USV not-really-poor.

The two Greek words mentioned above are ptochos, poor with no way to change their conditions, and penes, poor in comparison. To make it personal, I am definitely penes (in my opinion), but I am definitely not ptochos.

Ivan wrote:
"Suppose Jesus really were alive today. Would he despise the poor? Ignore their needs? Begrudge their miserable welfare hand-outs? Cheer at the idea of letting the uninsured die of disease?"

Jesus didn’t ignore anyone, poor, rich, or in between. Paul, apostle of Jesus the Anointed, taught in his first letter to Timothy that God “will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.”

Paul, as an apostle of Jesus the Christ (Anointed), is charged by his Lord and Master to “teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”; accordingly, it is clear that (a) Jesus discriminates neither for nor against poor people, and (b) Jesus is mediator of poor people, rich people, in between people, all people, period.

Ivan wrote:
"When did the Jesus of the Gospels1 ever proclaim that the poor and sick and unfortunate do not deserve your compassion?2 That you are not your brother’s keeper?3 That paying tax is an abomination?"4

"The sight of American Christians in full self-righteous fervor, working themselves up into a rage over other people’s beliefs and other people’s sexuality, is hard to reconcile with the Jesus of the Gospels, whose anger was almost exclusively reserved for those who dared to judge and look down on others."
 

  1. The term “the Jesus of the Gospel” is, to me, a bit irksome. Y’shua, a decent transliteration of Hebrew name, is also the name of Joshua, the leader of the Nation of Y’srael as they crossed the Jordan. More appropriate differential terms, in my opinion, are Jesus the Messiah (Y’shua Moshiach) and Jesus the Anointed (Christos/Christ).

  2. Never.

  3. Never.

  4. Never.



This author repeats a falsehood; that American “Christians” (or any “Christians”, no matter the attached adjective) who are “working themselves up into a rage” over whatever are Christians

Christians follow Jesus; Jesus’ followers follow Jesus’ teachings. Jesus doesn’t teach his followers, his disciples, Christians, to “[work] themselves up into a rage” and those who teach that American Christians, any Christians, “[work] themselves up into a rage”, and thus ignore Jesus’ teachings, teach falsehood.

Truth unspoken remains truth. Falsehood spoken repeatedly remains falsehood.

 
Ivan wrote:
"… other people’s sexuality…"

Paul, an apostle of Jesus the Christ, charged by Jesus to “[teach] them to observe all things whatsoever all things whatsoever I have taught you”, teaches:

Greek Bible:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful, and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Romans 1:18-32
Greek Bible:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Jesus teaches as Paul “[teaches] them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”

Ivan wrote:
"Romney, of course, is a Mormon."

Mormons follow not the teachings of Jesus the Christ. Mormons follow the teachings of Joseph Smith. Accordingly, Mormons are not Christians.

Ivan wrote:
"But many of those who support the right-wing politics he espouses will be mainstream Christians.1 Christians, it must be said, whose Bibles must contain very different accounts of Jesus’s teachings than the one on my bookshelf."1
 

  1. if the Bible on the author’s bookshelf contains accurate translations of Jesus’ teachings, the author’s Bible is identical in substantive content to that which Christians follow; accordingly, those that the author identifies as “Christians” evidently are not Christians.

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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Shirina on Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:36 pm

Two friends went to India; one in 1988, the other in 2003. Both returned with a different attitude-in-common toward American USV street beggars. Compassion demonstrated by action for the poor in Calcutta (1988) and Mumbai (2003); both gave every day as he had money/sustenance to give. Neither was left with compassion for American USV not-really-poor.

I'm concerned about being poor where I live, not being poor somewhere else. Because that "somewhere else" is irrelevant.

In the US, people are often poor because the rich hoard everything; they are little better than Third World tribal warlords in that regard. The issue in America is that we tend to look at a place like India and think, "Well, Americans aren't starving yet like the Indians are, so why should I care about poor Americans?" The implication being that we're going to wait until they ARE starving, at which point, it is often too late. The social mores that allowed the poor to reach that state is already ingrained into the collective psyche. In fact, we're already seeing that mentality from the conservatives; a poor person must be living in filth and squalor before they are deserving of any help at all ... at which point, they might hand someone a blanket before zipping off in their $50k car back to their $500k house.
The two Greek words mentioned above are ptochos, poor with no way to change their conditions, and penes, poor in comparison.
And then there is this issue, the mythology that living in America means you have the ability to change your conditions. That is the illusion we're led to believe, but it's pure bunk.

Rags to riches? That's Hollywood fiction, study finds

Just 4 percent of people who grew up in the bottom fifth of the household income ladder made it to the top fifth as adults, according to a new long-term study showing the limits of American mobility.

“The rags-to-riches story is more often found in Hollywood than in reality,” said Erin Currier, project manager with the Pew Charitable Trust's Economic Mobility Project, which prepared the report.

LINK
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by ROB on Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:42 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Two friends went to India; one in 1988, the other in 2003. Both returned with a different attitude-in-common toward American USV street beggars. Compassion demonstrated by action for the poor in Calcutta (1988) and Mumbai (2003); both gave every day as he had money/sustenance to give. Neither was left with compassion for American USV not-really-poor.
Shirina wrote:
I'm concerned about being poor where I live, not being poor somewhere else. Because that "somewhere else" is irrelevant.

Au contraire; “somewhere else” is relevant, everywhere else is relevant. We do not live in isolation. I cannot and shall not confine compassion to those who, by accident of birth or by choice of immigration destination, are citizens and/or residents of the United States of America. One world, one mankind; as John Donne observed, “No man is an island entire of itself… So do not send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”

Shirina wrote:
The issue in America is that we tend to look at a place like India and think, "Well, Americans aren't starving yet like the Indians are, so why should I care about poor Americans?"1 The implication being that we're going to wait until they ARE starving,2 at which point, it is often too late.
 

  1. I’ve not said this.

  2. I’ve not implied this.



Fact: Two friends went to India, one to Calcutta (1988), one to Mumbai (2003).

Fact: Both have stated to me that the poor in India are starving on the streets of the cities (Calcutta and Mumbai) that they visited.

Fact: Both have stated to me that the poor in the United States of America are not starving on the streets of the US cities in which they live.

I choose to accept my friends’ personal testimonies. You are free to accept or reject these testimonies as you desire,
 
RockOnBrother wrote:
The two Greek words mentioned above are ptochos, poor with no way to change their conditions, and penes, poor in comparison.
Shirina wrote:
And then there is this issue, the mythology that living in America means you have the ability to change your conditions. That is the illusion we're led to believe, but it's pure bunk.

Facts are not “mythology”; facts are not “illusion”; facts are not “bunk.”

Fact: The poor in India either receive alms or starve to death on the streets of Indian cities.

Fact: The poor in America USV do not either receive alms or starve to death on the streets of American USV cities.  

I choose to accept these facts. You are free to accept or reject these facts as you desire.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by astra on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:16 pm

Fact: The poor in America USV do not either receive alms or starve to death on the streets of American USV cities.

BUT!

The poor in America AND UK are increasingly looking to help from soup kitchens and other food/clothes donations.

Is this not ALMS by another name, by the back door...........................................




it is only that they do not look as dirty (yet) as the poor souls in Asia that the majority are conned into thinking - BELIEVING it is not happening here.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:27 pm

One would like to think that all of us would rise against a regime in either the UK or the USA which permitted some of its citizens to literally starve to death.

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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by ROB on Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:22 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
One would like to think that all of us would rise against a regime in either the UK or the USA which permitted some of its citizens to literally starve to death.

“all of us” equals “We the People.”

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends [securing Creator-endowed unalienable Rights onto all men], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
United States Constitution, Preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Shirina on Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:29 pm

The poor in America AND UK are increasingly looking to help from soup kitchens and other food/clothes donations.
I don't think most people truly understand how bad things are. Having to seek "alms" from the government has become a dirty little secret for many since the right-wingers have demonized the idea of welfare. I've even heard stories concerning right-wingers who have actually confronted people using food stamps in the grocery store. So everyone has to keep it hush-hush as they pretend to be well-off, middle class families. But, that's what happens in a society that sees the accumulation of material goods as the benchmark for the value of human life.

In suburban America, middle class begins to confront poverty

BOULDER, Colo. – The small communities that dot the picturesque mountain landscape outside Boulder, Colo., conjure up an image from long before the great recession. Here the manicured lawns and expensive cars are a testament to the achievements of a fiercely independent and educated middle class; a 21st century version of suburban bliss. But often these days, the closed doors of well-kept houses hide a decidedly different reality: hushed conversation about food stamps and Medicaid, depleted bank accounts and 401K’s, kitchen shelves stocked with groceries from food pantries.

"It's this dirty little secret,” said Joyce Welch, a stay-at-home mother of three whose husband, a mechanical engineer, lost his job six months ago. “Everybody is supposed to be able to buy the new car, supposed to buy the new house. And what we don't talk about is people who struggle, and they're struggling more and more." The Welch family lives in Superior, a Boulder suburb that was listed by Money Magazine as one of the “Top 20 best places to live in America” in 2011. Neighboring Louisville was ranked number one.

The evidence that times are rough for many suburban middle class families is not merely anecdotal. For Dateline NBC’s upcoming special “America Now: Lost in Suburbia,” airing Sunday, June 24th at 8pm/7c, Boulder County's Department of Housing and Human Services provided the number of Louisville and Superior residents that relied on public safety nets to make ends meet. And while these affluent communities still boast some of the lowest poverty levels in Colorado, the statistics were nonetheless startling: since 2008 the combined number of families on Medicaid more than doubled, as did the number of people utilizing food assistance. Lafayette, another well-to-do suburb in East Boulder County experienced similar increases.


LINK

George Carlin was one of the most popular comedians in America - I don't know how well he is known in the UK - until he passed away a few years ago. Very rarely does the death of a celebrity actually affect me, but news of his death actually left me feeling empty. He was one of the few shining lights in this country, someone who really "got it." Most of his stand-up routines were mostly jokes, but they were often political jokes. No doubt he had to do some research in order to write his comedy routines ... and like with anyone who actually looks into what is happening, George Carlin obviously began to see our plight as no laughing matter. Toward the end of his career, he began to joke less and less; his routines began to mimic political commentary rather than political humor. And it's no wonder. Below is a video of George Carlin, one that I think sums it up quite well:



One prescient quote from Carlin in this video: "I'll tell you what they don't want ... they don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that."

Why is it so prescient? Well ... how about this, for starters:

What is it about the political right-wing in the Lone Star State? It seems like they are now competing with Arizona to take the lead as the nation’s most anti-education and anti-intellectual state. Here is the actual language from a position statement in the 2012 Texas Republican Party Platform:

"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."(LINK)

The right-wingers want us to be stupid, and they are succeeding. And they are succeeding in a major way. Some people have accused me of being "too cerebral." In short, I think too much. My response has always been: "Well, I guess I have to do the thinking for the millions in this country who do no thinking at all."


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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Bunnyrunner on Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:46 pm

Ah George Carlin...That man had it right.:albino:
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:04 pm

Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Actually, there seems to be a Jesus for anyone who wishes to have a stick with which to beat everyone who doesn't coincide with the Holder's views.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Mel on Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:52 am

Left and right there are those who revel in greed and evil and their numbers are growing fast. The test of humanity is coming to an end.
In terms of time a 1000 years is no more than a day and a day is a 1000 years. Thousands of species have become extinct within periods of time amounting to little more than the time of the existance of man.



Genesis 6:13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."


The earth will be destroyed by fire and a new place will be found for a new beginning.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Shirina on Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:29 am

The earth will be destroyed by fire and a new place will be found for a new beginning.
Do you consider genocide a moral act?

After all, the vast, vast majority of humans never engage in violence.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Mel on Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:53 pm

"After all, the vast, vast majority of humans never engage in violence."

Violence is only one of many sins Shirina. They who have lived by the word of God and those that repent I believe will be saved for a new beginning at a place so wonderful that would be beyond our comprhension. That happening would not prove to be genocide.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Shirina on Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:47 pm

Violence is only one of many sins Shirina.
And how many of those sins truly warrant the death penalty?
That happening would not prove to be genocide.
The mass killing of a targeted group of individuals is, in fact, the very definition of genocide. In this case, it would be waged against non-Christians.

Keep in mind that being a non-Christian does not make one evil, immoral, violent, or any more sinful than a Christian. The only difference is that non-Christians aren't serving up platitudes to an apathetic God. Which makes one wonder - is this really all about being a good and moral person? Or is this all about God's vanity and ego? I had really hoped that the OT would have wiped away the "wrathful, angry god" stereotype, but apparently it has not.

And why, might you ask, is God apathetic? Well ... it's because he constantly turns a blind eye to the plight of humans when they really need him. The Holocaust comes to mind here, as well as any number of natural disasters and wars. In fact, the ONLY time God has EVER intervened was to punish or kill someone. Or many someones.

Wouldn't it be nice to see, just one time, God sweeping in to cure everyone of their illnesses or something similar to that? All God ever seems to do is thunder and rage about disobedience and our lack of belief.

I just cannot get on board with that. Genocide is evil; who commits it changes that not a whit.

Of course, you have your own beliefs, and that diversity makes the world go 'round, as they say.

I hope this post finds you well, Mel. Smile
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by ROB on Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:16 pm

Mel wrote:
They who have lived by the word of God and those that repent I believe will be saved for a new beginning at a place so wonderful that would be beyond our comprhension.

As Jesus promised.

Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

“Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me.”

“In my Father's house1 are many mansions:2 if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

John 14:1-3
 

  1. οἰκία, oikia, residence, abode, by implication a family, home, house, household.


  2. μονή, monē, mansion.



That place is designed for Mel and for you, Shirina.

Greek Bible:

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have all1 men2 to be saved and to come unto the knowledge3 of the truth4. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men,2 the man2 Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all1…”

1 Timothy 2:3-6
 

  1. πᾶς, pas, all, every, the whole, everyone.


  2. ἄνθρωπος, anthrōpos, a human being, man.


  3. ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis (from ἐπί, epi, an intensifier, and γνῶσις, gnōsis, knowledge), clear and exact knowledge, thorough participation in the object of the knowledge.


  4. ἀλήθεια, alētheia, true, truly, truth, verity.


 
 

Shirina, the plural pronoun “all” includes you, and the plural, gender inclusive noun “men” includes you.

Love for one another means desiring for one another the very best. Earth’s “stuff” sometimes provides temporary satisfaction; Jesus assures eternal, salvation. I know that Mel wants the best for you. So do I.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Mel on Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Shirina "In this case, it would be waged against non-Christians."

Not at all Shirina, God is against ALL sinners and loves only the good, or until repentance of those who have sinned.

He will watch evil intent and trust that those who believe in him will recognise that evil as an example will bring about the fight to eliminate that evil which must win through to show that goodness must rise above, evil terror.

We in the world have learned a lot from the evils of the past, until recently where there is now an overwhelming amout of evil and greed taking place to such an extent that it will be crushed . Where evil exists, it must be eliminated. If you wish to refer to that as "genocide", that is your perogative.

I am well thank you Shirina. I am fortunate and I am ALWAYS aware of the very fact that you suffer much pain and I hope that you can gain some relief, albeit if only temporarily, as I truly see you as a good and decent woman, irrispective of our differing views on this delicate subject.
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by bobby on Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:49 pm

Love for one another means desiring for one another the very best.

What even the Chinese Olympic Swimmers?
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Re: Is there one Jesus for the left and another for the right?

Post by Mel on Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:14 pm

Hello bobby boy, didn't expect to see you here. Smile
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