God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

by Greatest I am Tue May 29, 2012 9:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits.

Omnipotent is defined in part as having power or authority without limits IOW, almighty.

Seems to me that God has a few limits.

He cannot reproduce true.
He cannot enjoy sex.
He cannot reproduce without bestiality or cross species breeding.
He can only reproduce half breed chimeras like Jesus.
He could not create a heaven without Satan.
He could not create Eden without evil in it.
He cannot control wayward demons or devils.
He cannot sin, although scripture says he does.
He cannot live without needs like adoration, honour, obedience, love.
He cannot accept a soul into heaven without us accepting Jesus and human sacrifice.
He could not forgive sin without having Jesus sacrificed.
Feel free to add to this list.

How then can Christians say that God omnipotent, all-powerful and without limits when he clearly has many?

Regards
DL

by trevorw2539 Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:00 am

Shirina quote.

Or it could just be part of the mythology.

True with regard to the very early 'Sumerian kings'. Some dating back 28000 years are almost certainly mythological.
When we come nearer home, 3000BC, we are fairly confident of the truth of the Sumerian Kings lists. Earliest found dated around 2600BC. Gilgamesh was among its kings. The Epic was probably a series of stories made up over centuries by others about Gilgamesh.

'Long' lives were probably down to the numbering systems used. If we used the Sumerian system today I would be around 423 years old. Feel like it at times.

OW quote. In ancient civilisations, the majority of people might not have required precision in expressing the concept of a big number. A suitably large figure could be chosen to represent anything between twenty and a thousand or more.

Exactly. Later In the Bible when Israel faced the Philistines it was '100000' Philistines v '30000' Israelis. Another way of saying the Israelis were greatly outnumbered. Not exact numbers.

But think of the early scribes facing at least two numbering systems. Today we have decimilisation, but there are still older folk who mix Imperial measures and decimals measures.

Greatest quote. I don't think this justifies God in effect murdering A & E by blocking them from access to what would keep them alive.

It wasn't the intention that A & E should die. If you take the Eden story literally death entered only when they ate of the tree.

Quote by Blamhappy. Be nice.

Blamhappy - ooops - I mean be happy Smile

by **Ivan** Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:19 am

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by polyglide Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:48 am

You can argue or discuss the bible, God, or anything else but the fact is man has made a particulary bad job of managing the earth so far.

There is not one stable country on earth, including our own.

There are several wars taking place and there are numerous people dependant on drugs, some self inflicted and some not, there are more murders taking place than I can ever remember being a problem for over 78 years, brothers fighting brothers etc; not to mention many people facing starvation and in our own so called enlightened country we still have children undernourished, crime in all it's forms is now higher that ever previously recorded recorded, we have liars and thieves omongst our MPs and the old illnesses previously thought controlled are becoming a problem once again.

Then we come to the new technology.

A young lad of 12 has just been charged with the rape of a 9 year old girl he said he got the knowlege from his computer and wanted to be shown to be grown up.

Now just compare the above to what the world would be like had we followed the teaching of Jesus even had it been fiction.

by trevorw2539 Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:25 pm

Help. Pressed wrong button and put quote marks in previous post.

A young lad of 12 has just been charged with the rape of a 9 year old girl he said he got the knowlege from his computer and wanted to be shown to be grown up

If computers/technology are/is so bad why are you using one?

by trevorw2539 Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:27 pm

Ivan. Thanks for your help. Think I've got the idea. Touch wood Smile

by Greatest I am Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:37 pm

Blamhappy wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Yawn.

Regards
DL

Be nice.

I was the first few times but the same old B S gets tiresome.

I dislike talking to old book quotes instead of to people.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:44 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:

Greatest quote. I don't think this justifies God in effect murdering A & E by blocking them from access to what would keep them alive.

It wasn't the intention that A & E should die. If you take the Eden story literally death entered only when they ate of the tree.

]

Really.

That is not what the myth says.

Where did God get the animal skins he used to cloth A & E if not from dead animals?

As to God not intending that A & E should die. If so then he would have let them eat of the tree of life. Right.

You cannot get away from the fact that God murdered A & E by neglect or omission.
He actively caused their death. If not, why did he lock away the tree of life?
Just for the fun of it?

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:54 pm

polyglide wrote:You can argue or discuss the bible, God, or anything else but the fact is man has made a particulary bad job of managing the earth so far.

There is not one stable country on earth, including our own.

There are several wars taking place and there are numerous people dependant on drugs, some self inflicted and some not, there are more murders taking place than I can ever remember being a problem for over 78 years, brothers fighting brothers etc; not to mention many people facing starvation and in our own so called enlightened country we still have children undernourished, crime in all it's forms is now higher that ever previously recorded recorded, we have liars and thieves omongst our MPs and the old illnesses previously thought controlled are becoming a problem once again.

Then we come to the new technology.

A young lad of 12 has just been charged with the rape of a 9 year old girl he said he got the knowlege from his computer and wanted to be shown to be grown up.

Now just compare the above to what the world would be like had we followed the teaching of Jesus even had it been fiction.

Man. Are you out of touch. I guess you do not get out much.

Fact is, the world, at least by the markers I use, is better than it has ever been, per capita.

There is less slavery and less violent death today than at any other time in history. Wealth and education and medicine has just about stabalized our population growth.

Do just a bit of research and you can confirm all that I have said.

If you have a problem let me know and I can give you a few links.

I happen to have this one handy but you can confirm all that I just said at that same location.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ezVk1ahRF78

Regards
DL

by **Ivan** Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:07 pm

I was the first few times but the same old B S gets tiresome. I dislike talking to old book quotes instead of to people.

You'll never find a kinder and more gentle moderator than Blamhappy, and I trust you'll respect her for that. Fair enough if you don't like "old book quotes" and you're free to say as much and argue your case. But if your response is limited to just a yawn, it's probably better to post nothing at all. You've probably come across this saying: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Please enjoy yourself in respectful dialogue without getting personal, however indirect your criticism may appear. Thanks.

by Guest Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:50 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
God to Jesus: "I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them."
by Greatest I am on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 0:45

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Eighteen hours fifty two minutes (18:52) later:

Greatest I am wrote:
Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits
by Greatest I am on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 19:37

I dislike talking to old book quotes…

Interesting.

by trevorw2539 Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:38 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
trevorw2539 wrote:

Greatest quote. I don't think this justifies God in effect murdering A & E by blocking them from access to what would keep them alive.

It wasn't the intention that A & E should die. If you take the Eden story literally death entered only when they ate of the tree.

]

Really.

That is not what the myth says.

Where did God get the animal skins he used to cloth A & E if not from dead animals?

As to God not intending that A & E should die. If so then he would have let them eat of the tree of life. Right.

You cannot get away from the fact that God murdered A & E by neglect or omission.
He actively caused their death. If not, why did he lock away the tree of life?
Just for the fun of it?

Regards
DL

[color=black]An Electricity Sub-station has a notice warning that touching the appliance is dangerous and can lead to death. It isn't there to kill, but if you neglect to heed the warning you may suffer the consequences. YOU have the choice.

Don't follow your logic, or event timing. A & E were thrown out of the Garden after their 'sin' caused death to enter the world. The Garden of Eden was a Paradise where innocence was paramount. Everything idyllic. A concept that we cannot imagine in our minds. Until something wormed its way in.
The damage was done when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Something done can never be undone. It is there for all time. We can move on, but not wipe out what happened.
Adam and Eve had now become knowledgeable, but had shown themselves untrustworthy by disobedience. Would you put power/share power with someone who cannot be trusted.
The tree of life was now no longer available. It could not restore the trust between God and A & E.

]

by oftenwrong Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:39 pm

Certainly interesting as an example of total arrogance.

by oftenwrong Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:42 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Blamhappy wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Yawn.

Regards
DL

Be nice.

I was the first few times but the same old B S gets tiresome.

I dislike talking to old book quotes instead of to people.

Regards
DL

So refreshing to hear from someone who just KNOWS that they are right.

by Blamhappy Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:11 am

If you're bored with someone's post, you needn't respond to it. It's unkind to post a rude response.

by trevorw2539 Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:57 am

Blamhappy wrote:If you're bored with someone's post, you needn't respond to it. It's unkind to post a rude response.

Crumbs. Anyone who was on the old MSN threads, particularly the US ones, will think this is heaven compared with those. Some of us developed backs like tortoise shells defending ourselves. Sad

Though I agree with Blamhappy. Smile

by oftenwrong Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:47 am

"IF YOU CAN'T SAY SOMETHING NICE, DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL"

http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0101/sn0101.htm

by Greatest I am Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:28 pm

Ivan wrote:
I was the first few times but the same old B S gets tiresome. I dislike talking to old book quotes instead of to people.
You'll never find a kinder and more gentle moderator than Blamhappy, and I trust you'll respect her for that. Fair enough if you don't like "old book quotes" and you're free to say as much and argue your case. But if your response is limited to just a yawn, it's probably better to post nothing at all. You've probably come across this saying: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Please enjoy yourself in respectful dialogue without getting personal, however indirect your criticism may appear. Thanks.

I said nothing of Blamehappy and showed why I yawned at the same shit that I had received as an answer quite a few times.

You will note that most of the previous times I ignored the poster. I just happened to have the time to indicate to him that I had enough of his idiocy.

Fools sometimes need reminding that they are being fools.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:36 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
trevorw2539 wrote:

Greatest quote. I don't think this justifies God in effect murdering A & E by blocking them from access to what would keep them alive.

It wasn't the intention that A & E should die. If you take the Eden story literally death entered only when they ate of the tree.

]

Really.

That is not what the myth says.

Where did God get the animal skins he used to cloth A & E if not from dead animals?

As to God not intending that A & E should die. If so then he would have let them eat of the tree of life. Right.

You cannot get away from the fact that God murdered A & E by neglect or omission.
He actively caused their death. If not, why did he lock away the tree of life?
Just for the fun of it?

Regards
DL

[color=black]An Electricity Sub-station has a notice warning that touching the appliance is dangerous and can lead to death. It isn't there to kill, but if you neglect to heed the warning you may suffer the consequences. YOU have the choice.

Don't follow your logic, or event timing. A & E were thrown out of the Garden after their 'sin' caused death to enter the world. The Garden of Eden was a Paradise where innocence was paramount. Everything idyllic. A concept that we cannot imagine in our minds. Until something wormed its way in.
The damage was done when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Something done can never be undone. It is there for all time. We can move on, but not wipe out what happened.
Adam and Eve had now become knowledgeable, but had shown themselves untrustworthy by disobedience. Would you put power/share power with someone who cannot be trusted.
The tree of life was now no longer available. It could not restore the trust between God and A & E.

]

Your last is true.
God had killed that trust by lying by omission to them and later murdering them just the same way J W kill their children by not giving blood transfusions. We jail them while you praiuse God for doing the ame type of murder.

If you think otherwise, show where he told A & E before the fact that their eyes would be opened and that they would become, as God said, like Gods.

You will not find that quote and don't bother just throwing your useless dogma at me.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:41 pm

Blamhappy wrote:If you're bored with someone's post, you needn't respond to it. It's unkind to post a rude response.

I am kind to those who are kind and not to those who waste my time with repeating the same old garbage.
Did you count the number of time he just reposted the same thing?
Not likely.

If I am not to be allowed to call a fool a fool or show boredom at repetitions then you may as well use your ban power.

I may be too honest for this rather good site.

Regards
DL

by trevorw2539 Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:18 pm

Greatest quote. You will not find that quote and don't bother just throwing your useless dogma at me.

]An Electricity Sub-station has a notice warning that touching the appliance is dangerous and can lead to death. It isn't there to kill, but if you neglect to heed the warning you may suffer the consequences. YOU have the choice.

That's all you need to know. You don't need to know that it will power houses etc. If you touch it you will not be around to bother about it.

And I will not throw any more 'useless dogma' at you.

One question. Why ARE you on here if you are not prepared to discuss or listen? Oh. That's a rhetorical question, by the way. No reply necessary.

by Shirina Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:41 pm

An Electricity Sub-station has a notice warning that touching the appliance is dangerous and can lead to death. It isn't there to kill, but if you neglect to heed the warning you may suffer the consequences. YOU have the choice.

That is true. However, the placement of the Forbidden Fruit is somewhat dubious, don't you think? I mean, we wouldn't put an electrical substation in the middle of a playground now, would we? Sure, we can post signs all over the place, but signs do not negate the horrible judgment displayed by putting a substation in the same place where children play.

The fact that God is both a) omniscient and b) in complete control of the environment means that God is directly responsible for the Forbidden Fruit being eaten. If that were not bad enough, God allowed Satan to run amok inside the Garden of Eden. Now, what kind of a paradise would Eden be if there was a demon prince running around inside of it? Would you want to be there? I wouldn't. After all, it's supposed to be a paradise where bad things don't happen ... so I doubt either Adam or Eve were on their guard when Mr. Serpent-Satan told Eve to go ahead and take a bite.

God could have put the Forbidden Fruit anywhere. He could have put it inside the core of Jupiter if he so desired. In fact, why did there have to be such a Fruit to begin with? But for some inexplicable reason, God decided to put that Fruit inside paradise ... along with a demon prince and two naive, inexperienced child-like people. If that's not a recipe for disaster, I don't know what is. Was God really that incompetent? After all, if God really didn't want them to eat that Fruit, why make it so readily accessible? For that matter, why make it edible? Or even in the shape of something that looked tasty? If we don't want our children drinking antifreeze or bleach, we wouldn't add coloring and delicious flavoring ... then fill up a baby bottle with it, then place it in the crib with the children. Right?

The whole Adam and Eve story is all the more ridiculous when one realizes the whole thing was a set-up. It does seem a little harsh for God to arrange everything to guarantee humanity's downfall ... and instead of simply saying, "I forgive you," God curses just about everything involved with the transgression - including the innocent serpent. I mean, seriously, God cursed the serpent by taking away his feet and forcing him to crawl on his belly forever more. What kind of weirdo gets angry at an animal for being possessed by a demon prince who shouldn't have been allowed into the Garden in the first place? Moreover, God curses humanity with "sin" and blathers on about being cursed for generation after generation, so now innocent people who aren't even born yet gets slammed with this judgment.

Then we have to wait thousands of years before God concocts this scheme of creating a son just so God can offer up a blood sacrifice to himself in order to grant forgiveness ... but if God intended to forgive us, why didn't he just do that in the first place, and why all the drama over a crucifixion? And yet, despite this forgiveness, women still experience massive pain during childbirth ... and snakes STILL don't have any feet!

No ... the Adam and Eve story is filled with plot holes and bizarre decisions by a supposedly perfect being for it to be credible.

by trevorw2539 Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:09 pm

Shirina. I've already said some time ago that the Genesis story is a re-creation of previous creation stories. I just like arguin.... erm.... discussing. Smile

The fact is with religion we are talking in human terms. If we believe in a God we require him to have our nature, morals, understanding and so on.
We don't even understand the ways of other cultures on earth, and expect them to act as we do. How could we expect to understand a higher being.
What would happen if an alien race made contact with us. How would we react to their, presumably, alien ways.

I believe that there is a creator God/spirit/being/whatever. I believe that having put things in motion he has allowed evolution to bring us to where we are today, for good or bad. When, and if, the creator will allow us to fulfil our potential probably depends on us. I don't have all the answers.

I try to follow the teachings of Christ, not always successfully. That is the way for me. You have your own way of life. That is for you.

I find the Bible interesting and instructive in many ways, though it has errors. I have read the Qu'ran and find it not for me, though I understand when read in Arabic, by an Arabic scholar, it is quite different. But then, I have enough trouble with English, let alone foreign languages. And American is beyond me.. ooops Smile

Eastern religious writings I understand, but are alien to my western mind.

I've enjoyed studying the OT and the background on which events were written. Some events proveable, some not.

And I've said enough Embarassed

by Greatest I am Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:51 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote. You will not find that quote and don't bother just throwing your useless dogma at me.

]An Electricity Sub-station has a notice warning that touching the appliance is dangerous and can lead to death. It isn't there to kill, but if you neglect to heed the warning you may suffer the consequences. YOU have the choice.

That's all you need to know. You don't need to know that it will power houses etc. If you touch it you will not be around to bother about it.

And I will not throw any more 'useless dogma' at you.

One question. Why ARE you on here if you are not prepared to discuss or listen? Oh. That's a rhetorical question, by the way. No reply necessary.

Trevor. You are not the subject in question. Or the one who earned a yawn.

I do not mind discussing with you as you add words to quotes and are not just thumping uselessly.

You are doing it right.

As to your analogy above. It is not quite accurate.

Adam and Eve might have been burnt by their choice but you ignore the fact that it is God holding the torch on them until they die. That is murder my friend. It was not the eating that killed them, it was God locking away the tree of life.

That was an active and murderous act.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:05 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:

I've enjoyed studying the OT and the background on which events were written. Some events proveable, some not.

What events in Eden are provable?

Regards
DL

by trevorw2539 Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:56 pm

Greatest quote. What events in Eden are provable? None. As you will see by my post to Sirina/

Many of the people, places and events in Samuel, Kings and Chronicles are proveable. Some of the prophesies are 'proveable'. Jonah and Zephaniah both predicted the fall of Nineveh. We can argue whether that was on God's command or not. It still happened as predicted.

Adam and Eve might have been burnt by their choice but you ignore the fact that it is God holding the torch on them until they die. That is murder my friend. It was not the eating that killed them, it was God locking away the tree of life.

I don't agree. If you touch a conductor and are killed, you don't come back to life.

My thoughts are this. Man wasn't meant to live forever. The death we are talking about is the trust between God and man, broken when they ate of the tree of knowledge.
I base my thoughts on Genesis 3:22. Man ate of the tree of knowledge and 'became as one of us, to know good from evil'. Nothing about living forever.

Now 'lest he take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:'

If man were to live forever, why make him a help meet? It was already established that there should be offspring before the incident in the Garden. v 23-25.

I'm not a Hebrew scholar but I believe the phrases used in v16 and v17 are' eating thou shalt eat', 'dying thou shalt die'. (Heb).
Both indicate present and future.
If Genesis 2:17 were read literally as physical death, the rest of the Bible would be irrelevant as Adam would have died in Chapter 3. Sad

by Guest Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:57 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
I'm not a Hebrew scholar but I believe the phrases used in v16 and v17 are' eating thou shalt eat', 'dying thou shalt die'. (Heb).
Both indicate present and future.

Hebrew Bible:

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day¹ that you eat from it you will surely die.²”

Genesis 2:16-17, New American Standard Bible

And the Lord God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when¹ you eat from it you will certainly die.²’

Genesis 2:16-17, New International Version - UK

And God commanded to him and said, Eat thou of each tree of paradise; (And God commanded to him and said, Thou can eat of every tree in the garden;) forsooth eat thou not of the tree of knowing of good and of evil; for in whatever day thou shalt eat thereof, thou shalt die by death. (but thou shalt not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for on the day¹ that thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die.²)

Genesis 2:16-17, Wycliffe Bible

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day¹ that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.²

Genesis 2:16-17, King James Version

day, יוֹם ‎ yôm, a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), age, continually, daily, each, today.
die, מוּת ‎ mûth, to die (literally or figuratively).

by trevorw2539 Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:41 pm

RoC Thanks. I always think of sunset to sunset in Hebrew matters.

by Guest Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:11 pm

Trevor,

I also try to do so, even though the Hebrew calendar day (sunset sunrise, sunrise to sunset) is confusing to me.

The underlying meaning of yôm is a bit easier for me. It’s always a completion of some sort, whether the completion of a night, a day (as in daytime), a calendar day, a year (as in one time around the sun), an era, a period of time in which something was started and completed (my conclusion as to yôm’s meaning in Genesis 1), or anything else which carries with it an expectation of completion.

Thus, from July 100 BC to 15 March 44 BC, the timeframe of Julius Caesar’s life, from birth to assassination, could be called a yôm. For me, a volunteer worker in Robert Francis Kennedy’s presidential primary campaign, 20 November 1925 to 6 June 1968 is definitely a yôm.

by polyglide Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:13 am

As I have said previously I am not realy interested in anything prior to the coming of Jesus and to be honest I do not understand most of it, as it is too deep for me with the neccesisty to cross reference numerous different details and experiences of those involved in the scriptures but I do admire those who attempt to desipher them.

If man was not intended to live for ever then just what is the point of man being able to build on all that which came previously, I have thoght hard and long on just what living forever mmay involve and boring was the point which gave me the most concern.

Then I considered all the potential for learning and enjoying all the possibilities.

I would love to be able to play an instrument, piano or violin etc; and no doubt there are millions of other things to discover and enjoy and in particular if everyone had good health there are endless possibilities and I would not mind being part of them.

by trevorw2539 Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:55 pm

POLYGLIDE QUOTE.
If man was not intended to live for ever then just what is the point of man being able to build on all that which came previously, I have thoght hard and long on just what living forever mmay involve and boring was the point which gave me the most concern.

Why did God create woman if it were not for reproduction. Genesis 1:28 He could just as easily have created another man to keep Adam company.

Hebrews 9:27

Nothing lasts forever. Man moves forward to improve the life of the next generation before he 'moves on', depending on your beliefs.

Have you really given thought to living forever? You could learn every instrument in the world and still no time would have passed. You could learn all the knowledge in the world, and still time would not have passed. You could travel every Galaxy in existence, and the new ones coming into existence, and still time would not have passed. Having exhausted all there is to know and experience, what then? You would still have 'eternity' lying ahead.

If you were to live forever, theoretically the human body would never age. Women could be having their 1,000,000 child in 1,500,000 years time. Or thereabouts. Shocked

And we think we have population problems now Laughing

Much longer lives, and more time to enjoy life is great. Eternity?

by Shirina Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:07 pm

If we possessed immortality, then we would merely take our time and our lives for granted. A limited existence is necessary for us to really appreciate our lives and all that it entails - the good and the bad. It also gives us a sense of urgency to get out there and do ... just do ... whatever it is you want to accomplish.

Of course, statisticians claim that, given immortality, few of us would live beyond 140 years because an accident of some kind would get us. Very Happy

by trevorw2539 Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:32 pm

Sirina quote. Of course, statisticians claim that, given immortality, few of us would live beyond 140 years because an accident of some kind would get us.

I'd settle for that, provided I had good health. Smile

by oftenwrong Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:01 pm

"Of course, statisticians claim that, given immortality, few of us would live beyond 140 years because an accident of some kind would get us."

That is a classic example of false hypothesis for the sake of argument, which is a perennial favourite in such discussions. "Immortality" is an absolute concept. One can no more be "rather immortal" than "slightly dead".

by Shirina Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:14 pm

That is a classic example of false hypothesis for the sake of argument, which is a perennial favourite in such discussions. "Immortality" is an absolute concept. One can no more be "rather immortal" than "slightly dead".

Well, that's not necessarily true. There are various types of immortality. And "immortality" is a different concept than "invulnerability."

I understand the absolute definition is "immunity from death," but culturally we've subdivided immortality into different levels. The most common is immunity to aging, so while we no longer age, we are not necessarily invulnerable. We can still be killed. Another form of "immortality" is immunity to both aging and disease, but we can still be killed by a runaway truck, for example. Of course, there is the true immortality when one is immune to anything harmful, aging being only one bit of it.

It just depends.

by oftenwrong Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:54 pm

Culturally, death can mean eternal life, to the Believer.

Usually called semantics.

by polyglide Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:13 pm

In the religious sense the only thing immortality means is everlasting life and nothing else, it has no other meaning.

I agree it seems odd that God would actually put Adam and Eve on trial,however, we have to once again consider what part the Devil played.

If you believe in God then you must also believe in the Devil and other similar entities.

The Devil is attempting to prove that he can turn everyone against God and has been given a free hand for a limited period to attempt to do so.

So to uphold the agreement God's hands are presently tied to a great extent and were he to stop all the ills of the world at the present time he would not be fullfilling his promise.

I know, I know, it is hard to comprehend but it does explain many of the things we find abhorent.

Just consider the state the world is in today and consider what, if it continues in the same vein, it will be like in another 100 years.

by Greatest I am Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:51 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote. What events in Eden are provable? None. As you will see by my post to Sirina/

Many of the people, places and events in Samuel, Kings and Chronicles are proveable. Some of the prophesies are 'proveable'. Jonah and Zephaniah both predicted the fall of Nineveh. We can argue whether that was on God's command or not. It still happened as predicted.

Adam and Eve might have been burnt by their choice but you ignore the fact that it is God holding the torch on them until they die. That is murder my friend. It was not the eating that killed them, it was God locking away the tree of life.

I don't agree. If you touch a conductor and are killed, you don't come back to life.

My thoughts are this. Man wasn't meant to live forever. The death we are talking about is the trust between God and man, broken when they ate of the tree of knowledge.
I base my thoughts on Genesis 3:22. Man ate of the tree of knowledge and 'became as one of us, to know good from evil'. Nothing about living forever.

Now 'lest he take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:'

If man were to live forever, why make him a help meet? It was already established that there should be offspring before the incident in the Garden. v 23-25.

I'm not a Hebrew scholar but I believe the phrases used in v16 and v17 are' eating thou shalt eat', 'dying thou shalt die'. (Heb).
Both indicate present and future.
If Genesis 2:17 were read literally as physical death, the rest of the Bible would be irrelevant as Adam would have died in Chapter 3.

What can I say if you do not recognize murder as murder?

Your bible says, woe to those who call evil good, and here you are doing just that.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:56 pm

polyglide wrote:As I have said previously I am not realy interested in anything prior to the coming of Jesus and to be honest I do not understand most of it, as it is too deep for me with the neccesisty to cross reference numerous different details and experiences of those involved in the scriptures but I do admire those who attempt to desipher them.

If man was not intended to live for ever then just what is the point of man being able to build on all that which came previously, I have thoght hard and long on just what living forever mmay involve and boring was the point which gave me the most concern.

Then I considered all the potential for learning and enjoying all the possibilities.

I would love to be able to play an instrument, piano or violin etc; and no doubt there are millions of other things to discover and enjoy and in particular if everyone had good health there are endless possibilities and I would not mind being part of them.

There are no pianos in a non-corporeal realm.
You would not have fingers either.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:04 pm

polyglide wrote:In the religious sense the only thing immortality means is everlasting life and nothing else, it has no other meaning.

I agree it seems odd that God would actually put Adam and Eve on trial,however, we have to once again consider what part the Devil played.

If you believe in God then you must also believe in the Devil and other similar entities.

The Devil is attempting to prove that he can turn everyone against God and has been given a free hand for a limited period to attempt to do so.

So to uphold the agreement God's hands are presently tied to a great extent and were he to stop all the ills of the world at the present time he would not be fullfilling his promise.

I know, I know, it is hard to comprehend but it does explain many of the things we find abhorent.

Just consider the state the world is in today and consider what, if it continues in the same vein, it will be like in another 100 years.

God with his hands tied. How droll.

Satan allowed to do his work. So much for justice.
Justice delayed is justice denied. Nice justice God!

As to your 100 years prediction and your view of a screwed up earth.

Check the stats. We are in fine shape and getting better over time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ezVk1ahRF78

Regards
DL

by blueturando Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:08 pm

The Devil is attempting to prove that he can turn everyone against God and has been given a free hand for a limited period to attempt to do so.

So to uphold the agreement God's hands are presently tied to a great extent and were he to stop all the ills of the world at the present time he would not be fullfilling his promise.

And then the fairy princess woke from her sleep and they all lived happily ever after.......Once the treatment had kicked in anyway

by trevorw2539 Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:17 pm

Greatest quote. What can I say if you do not recognize murder as murder?

Nothing. But then I don't recognise your interpretation.
We know for certain there were many tribes and nations in the world at the time. None of those were immortal. Why Adam and Eve? They were the 'founders/parents' of the Hebrew nation, not immortal beings.

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