How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

First topic message reminder :

How will you get yourself into heaven?

On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

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The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

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It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning and demanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Regards
DL

Heretic wrote:A closed shop is for those that want to be locked in.

polyglide wrote:Actually a closed shop is to exclude those who disagree with those inside.

Two different sides of the same coin

polyglide wrote:They may be right or they may be wrong, what they are not is being capable of considering in a proper manner the opinions etc; of others.

I don't see the connection between this and what came before.

Heretic

A closed shop indicates a closed mind.

I think the reference is over some people's heads.

polyglide wrote:A closed shop indicates a closed mind.

Hooray you got it. Now you just need to realise a church is a closed shop.

Heretic

Although I do not belong to any church, none so far as I am aware are closed to anyone.

Many would welcome all with open arms and with a delighted look at your bank balance.

There's nothing like going down south to find a church ... where you can find skads of independent churches like one outside of Raleigh called, "This Church Is On Fire!" And it had this brightly lit, hand-painted sign that gave the name, and every letter was on fire. Heh, it looked more like a picture of hell than a church, but I think I was chuckling all the way into the city after I saw that for the first time.

polyglide wrote:Although I do not belong to any church, none so far as I am aware are closed to anyone.

Many would welcome all with open arms and with a delighted look at your bank balance.

And why not?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their doctrine?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their good works?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their self righteousness?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their version of the bible?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their pastor being of the wrong gender?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their "look into your bank balance"?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their poverty/wealth?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their sinning?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their dancing?

Have they closed themselves off from you with their speaking in tongues?

How have they closed themselves off from you? Christianity depends on division, without a "them" there can not be an "us". Perhaps they think you're a "them"? You obviously think it of "them".

However you look at it Christianity is a closed shop.

Heretic

No, they have chosen what they believe and you have the option to either agree or otherwise.

I do not agree with how some use certain parts of the Old Testament to justify their ideas, both for and against God.

The Old Testament, is just that and has no meaning in todays terms.

You could join any of the religions and sects if you wished to.

Nice of you to forgive God his atrocities and say that they mean nothing.

Women are still not equal in your theology but that also means nothing.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:No, they have chosen what they believe and you have the option to either agree or otherwise.

So there is no denomination, sect, cult or faction in the 30,000+ groups that you would recommend? You really must believe that you are the very apex of the elite of the elite. What is it in the lofty places you must inhabit.

polyglide wrote:I do not agree with how some use certain parts of the Old Testament to justify their ideas, both for and against God.

So name them.

polyglide wrote:The Old Testament, is just that and has no meaning in today's terms.

So the account of original sin is to be dumped? The history of the Jews is to be dumped? If the Old Testament is to be cast aside then there are implications that include there being no need for a messiah.

polyglide wrote:You could join any of the religions and sects if you wished to.

There can only be one truth. Name those that have it (a specific denomination please).

Heretic

Anyone who believes in Jesus and does their best to follow his teachings.

There is no need to belong to any denomination.

polyglide wrote:Anyone who believes in Jesus and does their best to follow his teachings.

There is no need to belong to any denomination.

There might, however, be some powerful disagreement about what those teachings actually were, between those who care only about themselves and 'God', as opposed to those who believe we should treat everyone as if they were Jesus-in-disguise, and forgive ourselves so that we should treat others in the same way, or between those who read Acts and those who prefer the Jewish Scriptures.

polyglide wrote:Anyone who believes in Jesus and does their best to follow his teachings.

There is no need to belong to any denomination.

Such as the Mormons, Jehovahs's Witnesses, Moonies, Hare Krsna, Children of God (Hookers for Jesus), Divine Light Mission etc etc etc. These all believe in Jesus and try their best to follow his teachings and make them real in their lives.

To leave it hanging in the air as you did means it is easy for people to say PolyGlide believes all of these are Christians. If you are not exact and specific you are not communicating what you think you are and you frequently feel aggrieved when people misunderstand you when the cause of the misunderstanding is your laziness in not wanting to express yourself properly.

Heretic

You cannot be more specific than I have been.

There is no hanging in the air.

If you actually believe in Jesus and actually follow his example as far as possible, then irrespective of any other consideration, you are a Christian.

However, to deviate by any means due to not following his teachings then you are not.

polyglide wrote:You cannot be more specific than I have been.

Well yes you can be a lot more specific and a lot of people are, each of the 30,000+ denomination believe they are the only way or they would join up with the others that they think are Christians.

polyglide wrote:There is no hanging in the air.

But by not giving a clear idea of what you think a Christian is that is exactly what you are doing.

By not defining what a christian is you are saying that Mormons, Jehovahs's Witnesses, Moonies, Hare Krsna, Children of God (Hookers for Jesus), Divine Light Mission etc etc etc are all really Christians according to you?

polyglide wrote:If you actually believe in Jesus and actually follow his example as far as possible, then irrespective of any other consideration, you are a Christian.

There are many groups that consider themselves Christian up to and including the Klu Klax Klan.

polyglide wrote:However, to deviate by any means due to not following his teachings then you are not.

There might be a little bit of meat in this. Are you prepared to say which deviations would exclude you from the group 'Christians'?

Heretic

polyglide wrote:You cannot be more specific than I have been.

You really shouldn't use words if you don't what they mean.

I cannot take the blame for your inability to understand the obvious.

I have explained fully what a Cristian is.

To deviate means exactly what it says.

To stray from the original.

As many evolutionists treat it as religion, Stephen Jay Gould, Richard Dawkins, William Provine,Edward Wilson not to mention Michael Ruse all treat and accept that it their religion.

So to class all the so called religions as Christian or to confuse true Christianity with other religions is nonsense. you could not get further from Christianity than the religion of evolution.

For anyone to say they believe in Jesus is very different from actually doing so and living the life he told us would be best for us.

As Scientists all agree, if something is made perfect then it can, if it changes in any way only go backwards and that is what is happening to Christianity.

polyglide wrote:I cannot take the blame for your inability to understand the obvious.

You are, however, responsible for your own dishonesty and willful ignorance.

polyglide wrote:I cannot take the blame for your inability to understand the obvious.

Don't you think that there is a pretty obvious divergence between the various 'scriptures' (as, fair play, scientific theories get better expressed as time goes on)? As a Christian Socialist I was brought up to value the Gospels and Acts above the Epistles , with the Jewish scriptures very far behind: in other words, what should we DO. I can see that the Epistles came first, but actual Jesus-words and actual early-Church behaviour seem to me more convincing than theory, and certainly a man brought up to pay attention to how to act tends to keep at it a long time after those who reject Pauline theology or whatever. That's my view, anyway - Justification by Faith is for those who don't want the Struggle!

The fact that anyone is unable to accept the opinions and faith of others is sad and to judge others without knowing the facts is even worse

To have faith in the present day is more of a struggle than at any time previously and yet there is more evidence to support Christianity than at any other time.

Christians are constantly being bombarded with the nonsense the scientists keep throwing at them and yet all their theories are disproven on a regular basis.

It is far easier to fall from the faith and join the mob, there is no struggle in doing your own thing, the struggle is keeping the faith against all the evil.

All this living by Jesus' example (whatever that is) is a load of guff anyway. All you need to do to be a Christian is to believe in God / Jesus and your reward for this is a place in heaven. According to the Bible anyway.

polyglide wrote:The fact that anyone is unable to accept the opinions and faith of others is sad and to judge others without knowing the facts is even worse

To have faith in the present day is more of a struggle than at any time previously and yet there is more evidence to support Christianity than at any other time.

Christians are constantly being bombarded with the nonsense the scientists keep throwing at them and yet all their theories are disproven on a regular basis.

It is far easier to fall from the faith and join the mob, there is no struggle in doing your own thing, the struggle is keeping the faith against all the evil.

All this talk of evidence yet you never present any. Funny that.

Just look at the state of the world, read the last book of the Bible
and consider the likelyhood of it surviving.

Could you be a bit more specific?

Floods, earth quakes in diverse places, brother fighting brother, illness in many forms etc; all in one generation. etc;

Ah yes, floods, seismic activity, conflict and illness are all new phenomena which have never been worse. Apart from this being untrue, what does it prove either way? And if you're going to argue it's worse than in the past you're going to have to back it up. Saying it's so doesn't count.

polyglide wrote:Just look at the state of the world, read the last book of the Bible
and consider the likelyhood of it surviving.

Likelihood rather than likelyhood.

Your ability to use English is not improving.

Before we have a "look at the state of the world" it would be nice if you answered one question properly before trying to sidetrack people.

Please tell us clearly how we can know that somebody is a Christian or if a church is Christian to a level of accuracy where we can say that somebody else is not a Christian. If you cannot answer the question clearly then say "I don't know", nobody will think worse of you and some might respect you more.

As for the state of the world and the book of Revelation, people have thought they were living in the "last days" for over two thousand years and they have always been wrong.

Heretic

Also, PG - what point are you making in regard to Revelation? Again, defining what you mean with clear examples from the text itself and how that relates to the point you are making would be good.

There will be a time when they are right and that is the point, no one knows the when, nor were they intended to.

You ask the same question without any understanding of the answer.

I nor no one else knows if a person is a true Christian, only God knows that.

We can only base our opinion on what we are told and what we can observe.

I have stated many times what entails being a true Christian.

polyglide wrote:

I nor no one else knows if a person is a true Christian, only God knows that.


I have stated many times what entails being a true Christian.

    

Dan Fante,
It would be good if you could read it yourself, it may enlighten your mind a little.

I read it through a short time ago as I do from time to time.

Dan you realy are desperate.

You are unable to understand that one can say they are a Christian
and pretend to be one but only God knows if that is true.

The person concerned could be doing so for an ulterior motive but no man could read the persons' mind and know exactly what he/she is realy about.

Jus get a child to explain.

polyglide wrote:Dan Fante,
              It would be good if you could read it yourself, it may enlighten your mind a little.

               I read it through a short time ago as I do from time to time.

I have read it, actually. But that's not the issue since you were the one seeking to use it to make a point. When challenged upon that point you've decided not to back it up. The conclusion being you seem to lack the courage of your convictions or aren't really sure what point you were trying to make by referring to the text in question. You can prove otherwise by fulfilling my request for clarification but I don't think you will.

I most certainly will and hope that when I do you will eventually see the light.

However, my faithfull hound is asking to go walkies and as a Christian I must look after my pets welfare as those of my own.

regards.

Must've been some walk.

Dan.
Please read 2nd Timothy, Chapter 3.

I often refer to this particular part of the New Testament because I use a New Testament given to me in 1947 by Pastor Hughes for attendance at the church I attended as a young person.

Following signing the above he requested that I read the above and I have done so for reference ever since.

You could then go to Reverlations and read from Chapter 5 to the end and all that you request you will find.

regards.

Your cop out is transparent, PG. I asked you to clarify your own argument with references to Revelation. Asking me to read swathes of the text itself is in no way doing that. Again, you convince no one with your obfuscation tactics. Good luck next time.

That which I told you to read is self explanitory and I have no intention of typing that which is involved.

If you are unable to read and comprehend then get someone to explain.

polyglide wrote:That which I told you to read is self explanitory and I have no intention of typing that which is involved.

If you are unable to read and comprehend then get someone to explain.

If that's the case, could you explain the point being made in the verse that refers to:
"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

And perhaps you could state what point you were making and how this verse backs that point up. If it's self-explanatory then you won't have any problems fulfilling my request. Unless your dog needs walking. I'll take a refusal to explain as an inability to do so and I suspect I won't be alone.

polyglide wrote:Floods, earth quakes in diverse places, brother fighting brother, illness in many forms etc; all in one generation. etc;

ROFL! Right, and we're going to have some 8 headed whore rise up and whatnot ... like a Godzilla movie.

What I find funny about Revelation is how all of these disasters happen at once, as if one disaster wouldn't preclude another. For instance, it's rather hard to fight WWIII when the earth is being pounded by meteor impacts.

It's just absurd to beleive in any of this rubbish. Sure, the sun will become as black as sackcloth ... and let's see how long we fight wars when the sun goes out.