Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
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Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Ivan Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:06 pm
Most people who follow a particular religion do so because of geography. If you’re born in Iran or Indonesia, the odds are that you’ll be a Muslim. If you’re born in Spain or Italy, you’ll as likely as not be a Catholic. In Germany, you'll probably be a Catholic if you grow up in Cologne, Mainz or Bavaria, but a Protestant if you are raised in another part of the country. I suppose many of us aren’t able to detach ourselves from the conditioning we’ve received when young, but I still find it hard to accept that otherwise rational people will believe things that there is no logical reason to believe.
Virgin birth? Can you really believe that? How about resurrection, a fantasy that the early Christian Paul wrote about? Is it any coincidence that in his native Tarsus there were inscriptions calling Herakles, who died and descended into Hades, a divine saviour? The legend has it that Herakles came back to life in due course; does that sound familiar? And then there’s an angel called Gabriel popping in for a chat with Muhammad in his cave, while another angel, this time called Moroni, told Joseph Smith where to find some gold plates. A lot of people really believe all this nonsense.
The three Abrahamic religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam – all teach that unquestioned faith is a virtue. Many protagonists assert that every word in the Bible or the Qur’an must be believed as the literal truth. The danger then is that some followers of those faiths read the more violent parts of the Old Testament, or the verses of the Qur’an which date from after Muhammad’s flight to Medina, and then interpret the requirements of their religion accordingly.
I wouldn’t dream of claiming that atheists don’t commit atrocities, for nationalism or some other political ideology, or just because they’re insane (although the latter often suffer from religious mania). But isn’t the idea of encouraging people to believe absurdities the first step on the road to committing atrocities such as 9/11, 7/7 and the Charlie Hebdo massacre?
Virgin birth? Can you really believe that? How about resurrection, a fantasy that the early Christian Paul wrote about? Is it any coincidence that in his native Tarsus there were inscriptions calling Herakles, who died and descended into Hades, a divine saviour? The legend has it that Herakles came back to life in due course; does that sound familiar? And then there’s an angel called Gabriel popping in for a chat with Muhammad in his cave, while another angel, this time called Moroni, told Joseph Smith where to find some gold plates. A lot of people really believe all this nonsense.
The three Abrahamic religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam – all teach that unquestioned faith is a virtue. Many protagonists assert that every word in the Bible or the Qur’an must be believed as the literal truth. The danger then is that some followers of those faiths read the more violent parts of the Old Testament, or the verses of the Qur’an which date from after Muhammad’s flight to Medina, and then interpret the requirements of their religion accordingly.
I wouldn’t dream of claiming that atheists don’t commit atrocities, for nationalism or some other political ideology, or just because they’re insane (although the latter often suffer from religious mania). But isn’t the idea of encouraging people to believe absurdities the first step on the road to committing atrocities such as 9/11, 7/7 and the Charlie Hebdo massacre?
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Greatest I am Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:00 pm
Absolutely.
I see the evidence for that in theists whose morals have been corrupted by their religions.
Vicarious atonement is one issue that is clearly immoral yet Christians have to embrace it if they are to be Christians.
The Dark Ages and Inquisition is also good evidence where Christians murdered many Christians and others just because they chose not to read scriptures the way the church wanted them to. No free thinking was allowed.
Regards
DL
I see the evidence for that in theists whose morals have been corrupted by their religions.
Vicarious atonement is one issue that is clearly immoral yet Christians have to embrace it if they are to be Christians.
The Dark Ages and Inquisition is also good evidence where Christians murdered many Christians and others just because they chose not to read scriptures the way the church wanted them to. No free thinking was allowed.
Regards
DL
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:17 am
Of course numerous religions were created when man was distributed throughout the world because of his behaviour, this to attempt to create some kind of order.
However, God promised that Cristianity would be taught thoughout the world before it's end.
This has almost been accumplished.
However, God promised that Cristianity would be taught thoughout the world before it's end.
This has almost been accumplished.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by boatlady Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:07 pm
In relation to religion, I guess, like many people I do think there is 'something' -, and because I was born in England if I'm thinking about that 'something' I might want to call it god, because that's what we call it in England. If I lived in the Middle East I might want to call it allah, or in India I might want to call it Krishna, siva or kali.
That's a matter of my private spiritual life - which is just that - private.
There's nothing wrong with having a belief in the numinous - it does no harm and can give some comfort and help to develop the moral sense.
Where it all goes a bit pear shaped, to my mind, is when it becomes a communal, formal 'worship' kind of a thing, where the passions and often hatreds of a group of people are harnessed by a 'religious leader' exclusively, it seems to me, for the purpose of exercising power and to further political aims.
If I could, I would outlaw all religion - I would instead establish multi-faith philosophy and meditation workshops to provide access to spiritual and intellectual exercise for those who want this - the workshops would be permanently and explicitly excluded from any access to political power and would not receive any tax breaks through charitable funding - they would have to be self-supporting.
When you combine spiritual and intellectual seeking of this kind with any access to a political 'voice' you automatically, to my mind, create a monster that will try by any and all means to eradicate any other group. This century (so far) I don't think the Christians are killing anyone - but the Muslims, the Jews, and the Buddhists are. I don't think it's encouraging people to believe absurdities that causes religious extremism - I think it's REQUIRING them to - and having the power to enforce this as a condition of group membership.
Of course, it seems likely that the Islamist atrocities are coming from a particular minority view of Islam - Muslims (and Christians, and Jews, and Buddhists) are not en masse bad people - what is bad is the toxic combination of religion and political power - that's what I think, anyway
That's a matter of my private spiritual life - which is just that - private.
There's nothing wrong with having a belief in the numinous - it does no harm and can give some comfort and help to develop the moral sense.
Where it all goes a bit pear shaped, to my mind, is when it becomes a communal, formal 'worship' kind of a thing, where the passions and often hatreds of a group of people are harnessed by a 'religious leader' exclusively, it seems to me, for the purpose of exercising power and to further political aims.
If I could, I would outlaw all religion - I would instead establish multi-faith philosophy and meditation workshops to provide access to spiritual and intellectual exercise for those who want this - the workshops would be permanently and explicitly excluded from any access to political power and would not receive any tax breaks through charitable funding - they would have to be self-supporting.
When you combine spiritual and intellectual seeking of this kind with any access to a political 'voice' you automatically, to my mind, create a monster that will try by any and all means to eradicate any other group. This century (so far) I don't think the Christians are killing anyone - but the Muslims, the Jews, and the Buddhists are. I don't think it's encouraging people to believe absurdities that causes religious extremism - I think it's REQUIRING them to - and having the power to enforce this as a condition of group membership.
Of course, it seems likely that the Islamist atrocities are coming from a particular minority view of Islam - Muslims (and Christians, and Jews, and Buddhists) are not en masse bad people - what is bad is the toxic combination of religion and political power - that's what I think, anyway
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by oftenwrong Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:59 pm
It's perfectly normal to like to have "something to look forward to" and most organised religion encompasses some promise of an afterlife. Harmless enough in itself until it is attached to a belief that destroying those of a different faith carries a bonus.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:30 am
Politics have no place in religion.
I have explained elsewhere why there are so many different religions and the fact is that if one contradicts another either both or one is wrong.
I believe firmly that creation is the only possible answer to life.
Therefore there must be a creator or creators.
It is a matter of faith and understanding as to what you believe is the truth, were there a certain answer there would be no need for faith.
I have explained elsewhere why there are so many different religions and the fact is that if one contradicts another either both or one is wrong.
I believe firmly that creation is the only possible answer to life.
Therefore there must be a creator or creators.
It is a matter of faith and understanding as to what you believe is the truth, were there a certain answer there would be no need for faith.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Ivan Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:00 pm
boatlady wrote:-
I don't think the Christians are killing anyone
We’ve had a few American nutjobs murdering doctors who perform abortions, but nothing on the scale of the atrocities carried out in the name of Islam. However, on the eve of the Iraq war, George ‘Dubya’ Bush referred to it as a “crusade” and said that God had told him to end the tyranny in that country. That reminds me of how Peter Sutcliffe (‘the Yorkshire Ripper’) distinctly heard the voice of Christ telling him to murder women…..
So that’s it, is it? Despite decades of research by Charles Darwin, the theory of evolution – accepted by the vast majority of scientists – can be dismissed out of hand, presumably because an ancient text starts with the words: “In the beginning, when God created the universe” (Genesis 1:1). How wonderful to be so certain of our origins!polyglide wrote:-
I believe firmly that creation is the only possible answer to life. Therefore there must be a creator or creators.
Perhaps not everything written in the Bible should be so readily accepted by some Christians, when it contains blatant contradictions. Matthew (27:9-10) claims to fulfil a saying that it attributes to Jeremiah; the saying actually appears in Zechariah (11:12-13). John (19:14) tells us that Jesus was crucified the day before the Passover meal was eaten, but Mark (14) says it happened the day after. Matthew (1:17) traces Joseph’s descent from King David via twenty-eight intermediate generations, while Luke (3:23-31) has forty-one generations, and there is almost no overlap in the names on the two lists.
Too many people take literally the more bellicose verses in the Qur’an, in the belief that killing thousands of non-believers will secure for them a martyr’s death and send them straight to paradise. That’s one of the biggest problems confronting the world today, and it all starts with the unquestioning acceptance of so-called holy texts. Maybe we should count ourselves lucky that Christians don’t stone their wives to death on their fathers’ doorsteps if they’re not virgins (Deuteronomy 22:13-21), or keep virgins as sex slaves, as Moses advocated (Numbers 31:18). In my opinion Voltaire was right, and so was Bertrand Russell when he said: “Many people would sooner die than think. In fact they do”.
You might like to discuss that here:-Politics have no place in religion.
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t922-should-religion-and-politics-be-separate
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:36 pm
polyglide wrote:Politics have no place in religion.
I believe firmly that creation is the only possible answer to life.
Therefore there must be a creator or creators.
It is a matter of faith and understanding as to what you believe is the truth, were there a certain answer there would be no need for faith.
Your belief is refuted by all the evidence, amassed continuously over 150+ years of proper scientific scrutiny that all supports evolution and shared ancestry. Now you can believe whatever you want even if it is contradicted by all the evidence, but to then claim that this blind adherence of faith is itself evidence is nonsensical. Creationism has never ever managed to get even one single shred of evidence properly validated by science, so it's not evidence for a creator at all.
The last sentence is rather ironic, do you accept any of the innumerable scientifically validated things that you take for granted every day, or do you think your light bulb illuminates, your computer boots up, the internet functions, and antibiotics work because you have faith they will? The sentence illustrates a rather obvious logical contradiction if you don't validate these things and innumerable others by faith alone. Do you pray before taking prescribed pills, or does your GP's medical training suffice?
You do see what I mean?
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:46 am
Dr Sheldon,
There are many scientists who totally disagree with evolution, I can give you a list a mile long who give as compelling a reason not for evolutuon to be the answer, however, if you have considered all the facts then you will be aware of this and if not then you should not comment.
There are many scientists who totally disagree with evolution, I can give you a list a mile long who give as compelling a reason not for evolutuon to be the answer, however, if you have considered all the facts then you will be aware of this and if not then you should not comment.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Ivan Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:37 pm
Dr Sheldon is fully entitled to comment, as are both you and I. That's supposed to be the purpose of a discussion forum! 
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111.html
“An overwhelming majority of the scientific community accepts evolution as the dominant scientific theory of biological diversity. Nearly every scientific society, representing hundreds of thousands of scientists, has issued statements rejecting intelligent design and a petition supporting the teaching of evolutionary biology was endorsed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution
“Books about evolution are believed not because they are holy. They are believed because they present overwhelming quantities of mutually buttressed evidence. In principle, any reader can go and check that evidence. When a science book is wrong, somebody eventually discovers the mistake and it is corrected in subsequent books. That conspicuously doesn’t happen with holy books.”
(Richard Dawkins, ‘The God Delusion’, Bantam Press, p.282)
“Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15% of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialised country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than 0.1%.”There are many scientists who totally disagree with evolution
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111.html
“An overwhelming majority of the scientific community accepts evolution as the dominant scientific theory of biological diversity. Nearly every scientific society, representing hundreds of thousands of scientists, has issued statements rejecting intelligent design and a petition supporting the teaching of evolutionary biology was endorsed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution
“Books about evolution are believed not because they are holy. They are believed because they present overwhelming quantities of mutually buttressed evidence. In principle, any reader can go and check that evidence. When a science book is wrong, somebody eventually discovers the mistake and it is corrected in subsequent books. That conspicuously doesn’t happen with holy books.”
(Richard Dawkins, ‘The God Delusion’, Bantam Press, p.282)
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by oftenwrong Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:20 pm
"Why! Sometimes I can believe six impossible things before breakfast!
The Red Queen
Alice through the looking glass
The Red Queen
Alice through the looking glass
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:58 pm
polyglide wrote:Dr Sheldon,
There are many scientists who totally disagree with evolution, I can give you a list a mile long who give as compelling a reason not for evolutuon to be the answer, however, if you have considered all the facts then you will be aware of this and if not then you should not comment.
Thank you but no list is necessary for two reasons.
1. They represent an infinitesimally small percentage of scientists. As can be easily evidenced by Googling "project Steve".
2. Not one of this tiny number is offering anything more than hearsay. As can be easily evidenced from the simple fact that no one in over 150 years of scientific scrutiny has ever managed to get a single peer reviewed paper published that refutes evolution.
Just as no one has ever managed to get a single piece of peer reviewed evidence published to validate creationism.
Believe what you like, but those are facts, and they don't support your beliefs.
Last edited by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:07 pm
Neither do they refute them.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:18 pm
polyglide wrote:Neither do they refute them.
What are you claiming is not refuted, and who are you claiming does not refute it?
Last edited by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:22 pm
Here's more on project Steve to put your "mile long" list of scientists into perspective.
"NCSE's "Project Steve" is a tongue-in-cheek parody of a long-standing creationist tradition of amassing lists of "scientists who doubt evolution" or "scientists who dissent from Darwinism."
Creationists draw up these lists to try to convince the public that evolution is somehow being rejected by scientists, that it is a "theory in crisis." Not everyone realizes that this claim is unfounded. NCSE has been asked numerous times to compile a list of thousands of scientists affirming the validity of the theory of evolution. Although we easily could have done so, we have resisted. We did not wish to mislead the public into thinking that scientific issues are decided by who has the longer list of scientists!
Project Steve pokes fun at this practice and, because "Steves" are only about 1% of scientists, it also makes the point that tens of thousands of scientists support evolution. And it honours the late Stephen Jay Gould, evolutionary biologist, NCSE supporter, and friend.
We'd like to think that after Project Steve, we'll have seen the last of bogus "scientists doubting evolution" lists, but it's probably too much to ask. We hope that when such lists are proposed, reporters and other citizens will ask, "How many Steves are on your list!?"
The statement:
Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudo-science, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools."
Here's are some links..
http://ncse.com/taking-action/list-steves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve
"NCSE's "Project Steve" is a tongue-in-cheek parody of a long-standing creationist tradition of amassing lists of "scientists who doubt evolution" or "scientists who dissent from Darwinism."
Creationists draw up these lists to try to convince the public that evolution is somehow being rejected by scientists, that it is a "theory in crisis." Not everyone realizes that this claim is unfounded. NCSE has been asked numerous times to compile a list of thousands of scientists affirming the validity of the theory of evolution. Although we easily could have done so, we have resisted. We did not wish to mislead the public into thinking that scientific issues are decided by who has the longer list of scientists!
Project Steve pokes fun at this practice and, because "Steves" are only about 1% of scientists, it also makes the point that tens of thousands of scientists support evolution. And it honours the late Stephen Jay Gould, evolutionary biologist, NCSE supporter, and friend.
We'd like to think that after Project Steve, we'll have seen the last of bogus "scientists doubting evolution" lists, but it's probably too much to ask. We hope that when such lists are proposed, reporters and other citizens will ask, "How many Steves are on your list!?"
The statement:
Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudo-science, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools."
Here's are some links..
http://ncse.com/taking-action/list-steves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:55 am
Dr Sheldon,
I am pleased to be able to discuss matters with someone who I respect.
I am well aware of all the scientific thoughts regarding evolution.
I have also read those opposed to the idea and neither can be either proved or disproved, or we would not have to differ.
I have gone through all the reasons I do not believe evolution is the reason for the creation of anything in previous posts.
Of course evolution is a fact, however, it only occurs to things already created.
When I have a problem with my belief and one in particular was regarding the dinasaurs etc; I prayed for an explanation.
The Bible says that when God takes over from ruling the earth from the Devil all animals will be gentle and a child would have no fear of any animal.
This indicates to me that God in fact did not make the animals as they are in their behaviour.
This in turn must means that someone else did.
The only others being capable of doing so being those God created through Jesus, Satan being a pime exmaple.
This in turn gives me an explanation why there were all sorts of animals created that fought each other and were a source of amusement for those who turned against God.
God then wiped them from the earth.
The fact that we have coal over a mile deep etc; indicates that God did in fact cause a great upheaval of the earth at some time.
So this one concern of mine was explained as requested as have all my other doubts been.
Now take your idea of evolution.
If you understand it and how it originated, please give me step by step how a butterfy evolved and how such a complicated life evolved.
The eyes, the legs, the other organs and the life from begining to end.
Not by quoting a list of others but by your own understanding as I have done for my belieef.
I am pleased to be able to discuss matters with someone who I respect.
I am well aware of all the scientific thoughts regarding evolution.
I have also read those opposed to the idea and neither can be either proved or disproved, or we would not have to differ.
I have gone through all the reasons I do not believe evolution is the reason for the creation of anything in previous posts.
Of course evolution is a fact, however, it only occurs to things already created.
When I have a problem with my belief and one in particular was regarding the dinasaurs etc; I prayed for an explanation.
The Bible says that when God takes over from ruling the earth from the Devil all animals will be gentle and a child would have no fear of any animal.
This indicates to me that God in fact did not make the animals as they are in their behaviour.
This in turn must means that someone else did.
The only others being capable of doing so being those God created through Jesus, Satan being a pime exmaple.
This in turn gives me an explanation why there were all sorts of animals created that fought each other and were a source of amusement for those who turned against God.
God then wiped them from the earth.
The fact that we have coal over a mile deep etc; indicates that God did in fact cause a great upheaval of the earth at some time.
So this one concern of mine was explained as requested as have all my other doubts been.
Now take your idea of evolution.
If you understand it and how it originated, please give me step by step how a butterfy evolved and how such a complicated life evolved.
The eyes, the legs, the other organs and the life from begining to end.
Not by quoting a list of others but by your own understanding as I have done for my belieef.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:02 pm
polyglide wrote:Dr Sheldon,
I am well aware of all the scientific thoughts regarding evolution.
I have also read those opposed to the idea and neither can be either proved or disproved, or we would not have to differ.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Totally untrue, scientific papers have been written scrutinised peer reviewed and published as valid again and again for over 150 years, creationist and creationism have never managed even one, so your claim is absurdly false, and rather refutes your claim to knowledge on the subject.
I have gone through all the reasons I do not believe evolution is the reason for the creation of anything in previous posts.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:what weight do you expect anyone to attach to a single biased opinion? Especially when weighted against the overwhelming evidence science has amassed and validated, and your use of so many spurious creationist clichés which you seem to believe carry some validity, which again I must say roundly shows your claim to knowledge on the subject to be false.
Of course evolution is a fact, however, it only occurs to things already created.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Good grief, you've spent post after post denying it and now completely reverse the position, is this a wind up? As for creationism it's just a belief based on bronze age superstition, evolution by comparison has been scrutinised by science and validated by evidence again and again.
When I have a problem with my belief and one in particular was regarding the dinasaurs etc; I prayed for an explanation. The Bible says that when God takes over from ruling the earth from the Devil all animals will be gentle and a child would have no fear of any animal.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:The bible makes many spurious and erroneous claims, it was written by people who were guessing and using belief and prayer, the outcome in that sense is very revealing, as the idea that a deity with both omniscience and omnipotence would communicate such risible nonsense is frankly absurd.
This indicates to me that God in fact did not make the animals as they are in their behaviour. This in turn must means that someone else did. The only others being capable of doing so being those God created through Jesus, Satan being a pime exmaple.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Total fiction with no basis in reality.
The fact that we have coal over a mile deep etc; indicates that God did in fact cause a great upheaval of the earth at some time.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Not even close, and a basic cursory look at geology would show you this is complete nonsense
Now take your idea of evolution.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:It's not mine.
If you understand it and how it originated, please give me step by step how a butterfy evolved and how such a complicated life evolved.
The eyes, the legs, the other organs and the life from begining to end.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:It's not my area of expertise and it's hardly practical to tackle a subject of this scale here but you should start with Darwin's seminal work On The Origin of species, Professor Richard Dawkins has some excellent books on the subject, Climbing Mt Improbable, The selfish Gene, Unweaving The Rainbow, The Blind Watchmaker.
Not by quoting a list of others but by your own understanding as I have done for my belieef.I'm afraid this is again another tried dishonest creationist trick to avoid the unpalatable truth. suffice to say I don't put as much store in subjective opinion as you appear to, most especially my own on a topic I am far from possessing any expertise in. I put no store at all in faith or belief as a means for seeking truth.
Last edited by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typos)
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:00 pm
Dr Sheldon,
Then just exactly how do you think life started ?.
Then just exactly how do you think life started ?.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:41 pm
polyglide wrote:Dr Sheldon,
Then just exactly how do you think life started ?.
I don't know. That's a matter for scientific research to evidence.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:38 am
DR. Sheldon,
Then I do not understand your logic, or lack of.
Then it is obvious that they have failed so far to do so or we would have no reason for a dispute, this being so the most obvious conclusion one can come to is that intelligence was involved in the creation and all things must have been created, nothing comes about without a source.
Then I do not understand your logic, or lack of.
Then it is obvious that they have failed so far to do so or we would have no reason for a dispute, this being so the most obvious conclusion one can come to is that intelligence was involved in the creation and all things must have been created, nothing comes about without a source.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:26 pm
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:polyglide wrote:Then just exactly how do you think life started ?.
I don't know. That's a matter for scientific research to evidence.
polyglide wrote: Then I do not understand your logic, or lack of.Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:I can't phrase it any more clearly, or any simpler, your question is strictly a matter for science to investigate and evidence, not for people to base un-evidenced fantasy on that has no more basis than bronze age superstition.
Then it is obvious that they have failed so far to do so or we would have no reason for a dispute,Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Science does not succeed or fail in an absolute sense, it continues to pursue truth with complete objectivity, and will only stop when humans cease to exist. You keep claiming that disputation means the subject addressed is not properly evidenced, this is particularly stupid as people claim other deities exist, and dispute the existence of your own, do you think this means your God may therefore not exist? any lunatic asylum may provide any number of delusionals who deny what is palpably true, this doesn't validate their delusion any more than it refutes reality.
NB Disputation alone neither validates nor refutes anything.
this being so the most obvious conclusion one can come to is that intelligence was involved in the creation and all things must have been created,Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Not at all, that's just a god of the gaps argument for something religion chooses not to bother trying to explain, but chooses instead to insert a deity and magic without evidence.
nothing comes about without a source.Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Really? So what source caused your God to be? This is the Kalām cosmological argument, it's been refuted so many times I'm always stunned when religious apologist are so far out of touch they trot it out all unaware.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:19 am
Dr. Sheldon,
Just because you are unable to understand something does not invalidate it, it just proves your ignorance.
Just because you are unable to understand something does not invalidate it, it just proves your ignorance.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:24 pm
It is an accepted fact that you cannot get something from nothing, that is if you are sane.
It is illogical to think that at some time something just appeared, there must always have been something.
The mosty probable being energy from which all things are made.
If this be the fact then there must also be a method of forming all things from energy.
The million dollar question being, how?
If you consider all the implications it is obvious that this could not have come about by chance.
The odds of this happening are such that you cannot actually determine them they are far beyond our understanding.
We know not how large our so called universe is, just as we do not know if it is one of many and what the others may involve.
We are limited to humans and animals and plant life as we know it, however, if anyone thinks we are the limit then I think the odds are even greater than any other odds.
We know not what form other entities may take nor their capabilities, however, there must be many far greater than humans.
In my opinion the Bible gives the explanation, not in clear terms, but for those who seek the truth they will find it therein.
It is illogical to think that at some time something just appeared, there must always have been something.
The mosty probable being energy from which all things are made.
If this be the fact then there must also be a method of forming all things from energy.
The million dollar question being, how?
If you consider all the implications it is obvious that this could not have come about by chance.
The odds of this happening are such that you cannot actually determine them they are far beyond our understanding.
We know not how large our so called universe is, just as we do not know if it is one of many and what the others may involve.
We are limited to humans and animals and plant life as we know it, however, if anyone thinks we are the limit then I think the odds are even greater than any other odds.
We know not what form other entities may take nor their capabilities, however, there must be many far greater than humans.
In my opinion the Bible gives the explanation, not in clear terms, but for those who seek the truth they will find it therein.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:05 am
polyglide wrote:Dr. Sheldon,
Just because you are unable to understand something does not invalidate it, it just proves your ignorance.
I agree, your complete ignorance of even the basics of evolution and the scientific method being two obvious examples. Your constant bare claims for bizarre superstitious and uneven ed myths being cited by you as evidence in themselves is another example of your inability to understand what does and doea not constitute compelling evidence.
Now I posted an in depth response to your post and refuted several of your assertions, are you going at any stage to do me the courtesy of adressing my post or is puerile petty insults all we can expect from you?
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:10 am
polyglide wrote:It is an accepted fact that you cannot get something from nothing, that is if you are sane.
Is it? What's your exact definition of nothing here, is it an absolute?
If this is true where do you claim your deity came from and what evidence have you beyond anecdotal claims in a bronze age superstition?
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:14 am
Polyglide wrote: It is illogical to think that at some time something just appeared, there must always have been something.
Well energy is an obvious example if physics is correct. Undefined and unevidenced deities conjured from the imagination of bronze age bedouins is obviously not.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:19 am
Polyglide wrote: f you consider all the implications it is obvious that this could not have come about by chance.
Is it? It's a mathematical certainty that random events given enough time and repetition produce enormous complexity.
Lotteries produce a complex pattern of numbers by random chance every day of the week by simply repeating random guesses on a vast scale. So I think your subjective dismissal of what random chance events can produce is demonstrably wrong.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:21 am
Polyglide wrote:
The odds of this happening are such that you cannot actually determine them they are far beyond our understanding.
So you're making an absolute prediction about something you're claiming is beyond your understanding. Interesting thought process.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:52 am
polyglide wrote:We know not how large our so called universe is, just as we do not know if it is one of many and what the others may involve.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:No we don't, we can only measure the known universe that is visible to us. Nor is there conclusive evidence of more than one universe.
We are limited to humans and animals and plant life as we know it, however, if anyone thinks we are the limit then I think the odds are even greater than any other odds.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:what odds? You're just plucking unevidenced claims out of thin air one after the other.
We know not what form other entities may take nor their capabilities, however, there must be many far greater than humans.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Good grief, you're simply making things up as you go along, risible nonsense.
In my opinion the Bible gives the explanation, not in clear terms, but for those who seek the truth they will find it therein.
Your opinion is subjectively based on blind faith and entirely unevidenced. It's as valid as someone claiming they're the reincarnation of napoleon boneparte.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:21 am
Dr. Sheldon,
Let me just give you an example regariding odds.
What are the odds that the latest technology regarding, lets say, robots, coming about, by chance, without the help of man?.
There is an element of creation in every living and none living thing.
Let me just give you an example regariding odds.
What are the odds that the latest technology regarding, lets say, robots, coming about, by chance, without the help of man?.
There is an element of creation in every living and none living thing.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:57 am
polyglide wrote:Dr. Sheldon,
Let me just give you an example regariding odds.
What are the odds that the latest technology regarding, lets say, robots, coming about, by chance, without the help of man?.
There is an element of creation in every living and none living thing.
You think robots are a 'living thing'?
Organic life evolved. This as an evidenced fact. it has nothing whatever to do with how life originated.
Guessing that bronze age superstitions are a valid explanation for the origins of life is silly and illogical. Ignoring the fact that the one you've chosen gives an account which is almost entirely contradicted by scientifically valid evidence is even more silly. Delusional some would say.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 pm
Dr. Sheldon,
How you can conclude that I think a Robot is a living thing I do not know.
As with words like fact you seem unfamiliar.
The fact is that you would not believe that a Robot came about by chance but believe life did and all that that entails.
Very strange.
How you can conclude that I think a Robot is a living thing I do not know.
As with words like fact you seem unfamiliar.
The fact is that you would not believe that a Robot came about by chance but believe life did and all that that entails.
Very strange.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:25 pm
polyglide wrote:Dr. Sheldon,
As with words like fact you seem unfamiliar.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Don't be silly.
FACT: A thing that is known or proved to be true.
While we're at it let's get the dictionary definition of superstition since you object to it being used to describe your religious beliefs.
"Superstition is the belief in supernatural causality—that one event causes another without any natural process linking the two events—such as astrology, religion, omens, witchcraft, prophecies, etc., that contradicts natural science."
So you see it is you, not I, who is misrepresenting the definition of both the word fact and superstition.
The fact is that you would not believe that a Robot came about by chance but believe life did and all that that entails.Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Sigh, once again then, a robot is not organic, non-organic things don't evolve, no one has ever claimed they do. You're just repeating a non-sequitur. While we're at it perhaps I need yet again to point out that evolution is not based on chance, though chance does play a part.
It's also worth repeating that random and chance events produce complexity all the time, again see the lottery. An apt example as what you're producing here is called the "lottery winner fallacy".
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:05 pm
DR. Sheldon,
Anything that goes from one form to another or has something added evolves.
You always miss the point by not understanding the alternative usage of words, you pick on only one aspect rather than all, as with fact, have you actually bothered looking what the dictionary says.
Anything that goes from one form to another or has something added evolves.
You always miss the point by not understanding the alternative usage of words, you pick on only one aspect rather than all, as with fact, have you actually bothered looking what the dictionary says.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:03 pm
Childish semantics are not as impressive as you seem to think. We're discussing evolution in the Darwinian sense, and what's more you know it. So your silly attempts to make an analogous comparison between that and man made machines is a well known and thoroughly debunked piece of creationist propaganda.
Given the silly semantics you've attempted elsewhere I can't feign surprise at your dishonesty here.
Given the silly semantics you've attempted elsewhere I can't feign surprise at your dishonesty here.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:59 am
DR. Sheldon,
Please look at the definition of dishonest.
The manner in which I used evolution was totally relevant to the point in question and was illustrating a matter that indicates you have no appreciation of a valid point.
Please look at the definition of dishonest.
The manner in which I used evolution was totally relevant to the point in question and was illustrating a matter that indicates you have no appreciation of a valid point.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by oftenwrong Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:14 am
But if you want a real laugh, read Voltaire's satirical work, Candide.
(just as you think things couldn't possibly get worse ....)
synopsis: https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/candide/summary.html
(just as you think things couldn't possibly get worse ....)
synopsis: https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/candide/summary.html
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:32 am
polyglide wrote:DR. Sheldon,
Please look at the definition of dishonest.
The manner in which I used evolution was totally relevant to the point in question and was illustrating a matter that indicates you have no appreciation of a valid point.
I'm more than happy for everyone to read your post for themselves and decide if you've dishonestly denied a claim you made in an earlier post.
Though again given your track record for asigning incorrect definitions to words your constant attempts to blame me when I use the dictionary definition is very ironic.
You might have come across with more credibility if you'd simply admitted a mistake, but your bombastic denial just makes your claim appear as deliberately dishonest.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:58 pm
DR. Sheldon,
I have no idea to which you keep refering.
I have clearly explained that I believe things evolve but only things that already exist and what I am interested in is how that which exists came about.
I have proved you do not know the meaning of several words, you have not shown how I have done so in one case.
I have no idea to which you keep refering.
I have clearly explained that I believe things evolve but only things that already exist and what I am interested in is how that which exists came about.
I have proved you do not know the meaning of several words, you have not shown how I have done so in one case.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
by polyglide Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:02 pm
oftenwrong,
If you read a load of rubbish it will eventually tell and it does.
Please have a more selective reading habit.
Try the best book in the world, the Bible, act accordingly and even if you do not believe you will not be so ill advised.
If you read a load of rubbish it will eventually tell and it does.
Please have a more selective reading habit.
Try the best book in the world, the Bible, act accordingly and even if you do not believe you will not be so ill advised.
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Re: Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?
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