Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?

First topic message reminder :

Most people who follow a particular religion do so because of geography. If you’re born in Iran or Indonesia, the odds are that you’ll be a Muslim. If you’re born in Spain or Italy, you’ll as likely as not be a Catholic. In Germany, you'll probably be a Catholic if you grow up in Cologne, Mainz or Bavaria, but a Protestant if you are raised in another part of the country. I suppose many of us aren’t able to detach ourselves from the conditioning we’ve received when young, but I still find it hard to accept that otherwise rational people will believe things that there is no logical reason to believe.

Virgin birth? Can you really believe that? How about resurrection, a fantasy that the early Christian Paul wrote about? Is it any coincidence that in his native Tarsus there were inscriptions calling Herakles, who died and descended into Hades, a divine saviour? The legend has it that Herakles came back to life in due course; does that sound familiar? And then there’s an angel called Gabriel popping in for a chat with Muhammad in his cave, while another angel, this time called Moroni, told Joseph Smith where to find some gold plates. A lot of people really believe all this nonsense.

The three Abrahamic religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam – all teach that unquestioned faith is a virtue. Many protagonists assert that every word in the Bible or the Qur’an must be believed as the literal truth. The danger then is that some followers of those faiths read the more violent parts of the Old Testament, or the verses of the Qur’an which date from after Muhammad’s flight to Medina, and then interpret the requirements of their religion accordingly.

I wouldn’t dream of claiming that atheists don’t commit atrocities, for nationalism or some other political ideology, or just because they’re insane (although the latter often suffer from religious mania). But isn’t the idea of encouraging people to believe absurdities the first step on the road to committing atrocities such as 9/11, 7/7 and the Charlie Hebdo massacre?

Religious terrorists. They're Muslims in this instance. You do know that Muslims are religious?

Dictionary definition of absurdity
noun
the quality or state of being ridiculous or wildly unreasonable.

You claimed:

by Polymouth Today at 2:07 pm
Of course I do not agree with anything these people are doing, however, it is not an absurdity

Then you claimed:

by polymouth Today at 2:38 pm
I think what they are doing is unreasonable and ridiculous.

You really don't live within throwing distance of a dictionary do you.

The idea that a person can immolate themselves and as many innocent passers by as they can catch, including the murder of children and babies, and then be "rewarded" by a deity with an eternity of bliss & 72 virgins, replenished daily, is the very definition of absurdity.

The reason they don't find it absurd, is the same reason you don't find your beliefs absurd, because they like you accept them absolutely, they are as you claim to be 100% certain they are true. That's what faith is and what it does. To claim their beliefs are incorrect is to absurdly miss the point, to claim they worship the wrong deity, or have the wrong religion is equally asinine.

Truth is obtained in only one way, and that is through objectivity. Faith is the very antithesis of objectivity. If faith were of any real value in obtaining truth we'd not fill lunatic asylums with people who have absolute faith and certainty.  

As Voltaire said, and as Ivan points out with this thread, once you can make someone believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities, religion, though it's not unique of in this sense of course, has an appalling track record for achieving both.

Post by polymouth Today at 3:35 pm
As usual you do not understand what is written. It has nothing to do with religion when a person decides to do something which that religion does not condone.

Irony overload again, as I have written and rewritten quotes from the Koran that precisely condone such violence and even murder against non-believers. I imagine you with blinkers on, like a pit pony, banging away at your library keyboard in endless repetition, ignoring and not understanding anything you read, whilst endlessly claiming that it is everyone else who is to blame, and that you alone understand all, how sadly ironic.

Dr, Shedlon,
The best quote Voltaire ever made was, Common sense is not common.

You can expect nothing more than all the anti religious reamarks Voltaire made during his sad life,he was one of the most devote heathens who ever lived.

polyglide wrote:Dr, Shedlon,
                The best quote Voltaire ever made was, Common sense is not common.

                 You can expect nothing more than all the anti          religious reamarks Voltaire made during his sad life,he was one of the most devote heathens who ever lived.  

What has this to do with the thread title? Or with the evidence that's currently being posted to validate it's premise that "those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”? The evidence is the religious belief of Muslim extremists who commit indiscriminate murder in suicide attacks, including children and babies, in the religious belief that their immolated remains will be magically reconstituted somehow in an eternity of bliss, with a daily supply of 72 virgins each. Even you have admitted that this is an absurd belief, and of course it has demonstrably been used to get those who believe it to commit atrocities.

Dr, Shedlon,
You believe they are absurdities, I do believe they are absurdities but they do not, the point is who do you blame for all the present conflicts, most are based on oil and other such matters, who decides what an absurdity is?.

I feel that the biggest absurdity is to think life came about by chance.

polyglide wrote:Dr, Shedlon, You believe they are absurdities, I do believe they are absurdities but they do not, the point is who do you blame for all the present conflicts, most are based on oil and other such matters, who decides what an absurdity is?. I feel that the biggest absurdity is to think life came about by chance.

That's not the point, the thread question is the point. Do you accept Voltaire's premise that "those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?

The evidence is the religious belief of Muslim extremists who commit indiscriminate murder in suicide attacks, including children and babies, in the religious belief that their immolated remains will be magically reconstituted somehow in an eternity of bliss, with a daily supply of 72 virgins each. Even you have admitted that this is an absurd belief, and of course it has demonstrably been used to get those who believe it to commit atrocities.

polyglide wrote: I feel that the biggest absurdity is to think life came about by chance.

I feel it's absurd to make the same "STRAW MAN" claim endlessly whilst dishonestly pretending it is the only alternative to your own particular religious belief. No one claims life came about entirely by chance, and you simply don't understand the odds in question, as you keep using the common logical fallacy called the "Lottery winner fallacy".

Though none of this is salient to the thread and is already being discussed elsewhere, so to bring it back on to topic, you'd have to show a claim that someone has made that all life came about entirely by chance, then you'd have to show someone committing an atrocity because of they believed that claim.

Just as I did with my example of Muslim extremists. Though for clarity I'd have to say that since we don't know how life started I'm not sure how you can claim blind chance is any less likely than bronze age superstitions about magic. Especially as the belief in question has a version of creation that is provably false with the best evidence we have, scientific evidence.

Dr, Shedlon,
As Voltaire spent time in custody and other time in hiding I have little or no respect for him as he was also a heathen.

Back to the subject.

The only people who can be indoctrinated are those with a problem in the first place.

Everyone has a choice and youi cannot blame others.

polyglide wrote:Dr, Shedlon,
                As Voltaire spent time in custody and other time in hiding I have little or no respect for him as he was also a heathen. 

That's called ad hominem, how you feel about the man is irrelevant, and your antagonism actually should make you more careful to honestly address the facts, if you hope to address the question with any objectivity, and I have to say this seems unlikely from your responses.

polyglide wrote:Back to the subject. The only people who can be indoctrinated are those with a problem in the first place.

that's not the subject, at all, the subject asks whether you agree with Voltaire's assertion that if you can make people believe in absurdities you can make them commit atrocities. It is an assertion I think has some validity as there is evidence that supports it, I've offered some examples, if you want to get back on topic try addressing those instead of ignoring them.

Polygllide wrote:Everyone has a choice and youi cannot blame others.

 

I never have blamed others, nor does Voltaire's premise. However this sentence is a direct contradiction of your endless claims in the "Food for thought" thread you started, where you have repeatedly ignored my many posts saying precisely this, instead insisting that it is the behaviour of decent law abiding UK citizens that have provided the ammunition for such indoctrination and religious terrorism, implying they are somehow at least partly to blame.    

Incidentally everyone having some culpability for their actions, and Voltaire's claim are not mutually exclusive, your assuming that because a person has allowed themselves to believe in absurdities, and therefore committed atrocities, that they are not culpable for those acts. I have repeatedly said the opposite in the other thread.        

               

Dr, Shedlon,
You have a funny view regarding the truth everything I said regarding Voltaire is true how can that be construed to mean anything else?.

Everyone, irrespective of any other consideration are responssible for their actions.

There may be mitigating circumstances but in the end they are responsible.

No doubt that some people who believe in things others think absurbities could be persuaded to do other things but the same applies to almost everything else, the less intelligent and those open to influence irrespective of what they believe etc;

Your first sentence doesn't make much sense I'm afraid, but to reiterate my point, you attacked Voltaire rather than addressing the point derived from him in the thread title.  Whether your attack on him is true or not doesn't matter, as it is still ad hominem. I'd have thought by now even you'd have managed to take on board the meaning of this phrase. Alas it appears not. 

As I said in my post Voltaire's premise doesn't negate personal responsibility for anyone's actions,  and since no one has ever claimed otherwise I'm not sure why you raise yet another straw man?

It is only worthy of note because you are roundly contradicting what you have claimed elsewhere.  With original sin for instance, or your satanic conspiracy fantasies, that clearly would negate to a certain extent personal culpability, if they were true of course,  which they certainly aren't.  

Your last sentence is pretty vague and again doesn't address directly the thread topic. Nor have you properly addressed my example of religious terrorists and religious fascists as examples of people who have been made to believe absurdities and then gone on to commit atrocities.

Dr, Sheldon,
If you take all the atrocities that have occured I feel very few will have been because of any absurdity being involved.

Greed, drugs, fear, jealousy, power, nutcases etc;
have all played a major part and so has religions.

There will be millions of people who believe in what others call absurdities that cannot be mislead nor have been.

What one calls an absurdity another may think differently so the question is dubious in the first place.
,

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                If you take all the atrocities that have occured I feel very few will have been because of any absurdity being involved. Greed, drugs, fear, jealousy, power, nutcases etc;
have all played a major part and so has religions. 

That's not really the point is it, the point is that Voltaire's premise is borne out by the evidence, no one suggested it was the only reason people commit atrocities. For someone who so often delights in repeatedly telling others they don't understand what is written you show remarkably little grasp of the English language.  

Polyglide wrote: There will be millions of people who believe in what others call absurdities that cannot be mislead nor have been.

 

Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities CAN make you commit atrocities”?

If that sentence said will, instead of can make you commit atrocities, then you'd have a point, but as it doesn't say will, but says can, you've simply shown yet again that your grasp of English is execrable.

Again you have almost entirely ignored my post content, "Your first sentence doesn't make much sense I'm afraid, but to reiterate my point, you attacked Voltaire rather than addressing the point derived from him in the thread title.  Whether your attack on him is true or not doesn't matter, as it is still ad hominem. I'd have thought by now even you'd have managed to take on board the meaning of this phrase. Alas it appears not.

As I said in my post Voltaire's premise doesn't negate personal responsibility for anyone's actions,  and since no one has ever claimed otherwise I'm not sure why you raise yet another straw man?

It is only worthy of note because you are roundly contradicting what you have claimed elsewhere.  With original sin for instance, or your satanic conspiracy fantasies, that clearly would negate to a certain extent personal culpability, if they were true of course,  which they certainly aren't.  

Your last sentence is pretty vague and again doesn't address directly the thread topic. Nor have you properly addressed my example of religious terrorists and religious fascists as examples of people who have been made to believe absurdities and then gone on to commit atrocities."

As for your last sentence:

Polyglide wrote:What one calls an absurdity another may think differently so the question is dubious in the first place.

The example I gave was one you admitted was an absurdity, or are you now saying that the idea that a religious terrorist who uses a suicide attack to indiscriminately murder and maim, will be magically reincarnated after their immolation in paradise, with a daily supply of 72 virgins, is not absurd? Or are you claiming that their suicide attack and indiscriminate murder is not an atrocity?

Dr, Sheldon,
In the first place I think it is clearly an absudity but the terrorist does not.

In the second place it to me is clearly an absurdity but to the terrorist it is not.

I do not believe that the terrorists are actually acting in accordance with the latest acceptance of the Muslim teaching of the Koran.

It would appear they are drug fueled idiots egged on by those with no religion other than control of others towards their way of life, which has no real religious foundation.

I'm afraid you simply don't understand what is being asked in the thread title.  The thread title doesn't suggest the person being made to believe an absurdity wil think it is an absurdity themselves. Why would anyone believe something they thought was absurd?

The point is they have been made to believe an absurdity and through this have been made to commit atrocities. This is precisely what Voltaire suggests can happen,  and precisely what has happened.  

QED...

Your unevidenced claims require no response.

polyglide wrote:I think it is clearly an absudity but the terrorist does not.

So you're saying that the terrorist has been made to believe this absurdity?

So having been made to believe this absurdity, they then committed atrocities?

That sounds familiar, lets take a look at the thread title again:

"Do you agree with Voltaire that “those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”?"

Hmmm...

Polyglide wrote:It would appear they are drug fueled idiots egged on by those with no religion other than control of others towards their way of life, which has no real religious foundation.

I have changed my mind, as this is so erroneous it does require a response, you're actually claiming that Muslim terrorists are not just "not religious" but that their terrorism is "not a result of their religion".

I know you prefer to defer to your own opinion, but lets consult the dictionary:

Religion
Noun - The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:

So they are 'by definition' religious, and your absurd claim is asinine nonsense that 'yet again' subjectively tries to redefine the dictionary definition of a word to suit your own personal agenda. If you keep using this so often then "The No True Scotsman" logical fallacy will soon have to be renamed "Polyglide's No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Now having dealt with the absurdly stupid claim they're not religious lets look at the claim their terrorism has nothing to do with their religion. The 9/11 bombers shouted 'god is great' at the moment before they immolated themselves and their victims. The examples we are discussing believe they'll go to heaven with Allah, and be treated as martyrs of their religion, with 72 new virgins each day for all eternity. So again it's so absurdly stupid to claim their religious beliefs donlt motivate their actions it speaks for itself.

Lastly we'll deal with the 'drug fuelled idiots tag'. Literally tens of millions of people worldwide use recreational drugs on a regular basis, now are a significant amount of these people committing terrorist atrocities? That pretty much deals with that, even assuming you had evidence that Muslim terrorists were mostly drug fuelled. As for idiots, well who can say, I'd love to see some evidence for the claim, beyond doing, or believing, something idiotic, as that would pretty much make all young people idiots at some point in their lives.

Dr, Sheldon,
There is a vast difference between claiming that you are doing something for a reason and the reason being true.

A true Muslim and there are millions would not condone what the terrorists are doing in the name of their faith.

The fact it's not true is axiomatic else it'd not be a absurdity would it, Jesus wept....I can't dumb this down any more. They have been made to BELIEVE an absurdity, you yourself admit this and have said THEY think it is true. They have also been made to commit atrocities, QED. 

Join the dots man, FFS....

Are you again claiming to know what millions of people think? Can you not see how absurdly stupid such hubris is?

Dr, Shedlon,
You have obviously never heard of a figure of speech in which a statement is made to signify the gravity of a situation.

Yet I feel more than a million Muslims would not accept what the terrorists are doing in the name of their faith, many of their leaders have in fact expressed dismay at the manner in which their religion is being used as an excuse for terrorism etc;

They may have been indoctrinated by those not of the faith but using it for their own purpose.

However, no one makes them carry out anything that is by pure choice, they could always say no, so making is not in a fact, it may give encouragement and an excuse but ultimately no one can make anyone do anything against their wishes other than possibly by threats etc; even then they would have a choice.

That's not the point, the point is they have been made to believe an absurdity and through this have been made to commit atrocities. This is precisely what Voltaire suggests can happen,  and precisely what has happened.  

QED..

How you feel is not evidence, and it's absurd for you to keep making up this ridiculous claim that you know what a million people think without any evidence. Are you now claiming clairvoyance? Stick to the facts and evidence, and address my example. You have admitted the religious terrorists have accepted an absurdity and you have accepted that they have gone on to commit an atrocity, I'm not sure what else there is to discuss for that example, and it seems to answer the thread question.

Dr, Shedlon,
The only way to answer the question would be for someone to prove by scientific hypothesis and actual evidence that anyone has been indoctrinated by believing an absubity, first one's idea of an absurbity is not anothers, so you would have to prove it to be so, I think what the terrorists are doing and believe is absurb but obviously many do not.

There is ample evidence in the media that the vast majority of Muslims do not agree with what the terrorists are doing and their numebers are well beyond a million which in any case is just a figure of speach.

You already accepted that they believed an absurdity in your earlier post.  The fact they've gone on to commit atrocities is beyond dispute. No scientific evidence is needed here to establish both these facts. 

You do however have to evidence idiotic claims like the one above where claim to know what "many others" think. Your claim is not bolstered by claiming evidence exists in the media to support it. Produce it then?

Dr, Sheldon,
muslimsagainstterror.com ^

It's an absurdity and those who have accepted it have gone on to commit atrocities.  QED

Dr, Shedlon,
Not all who have accepted what some call absurdities have commited atrocities just as many with no religion whatsoever have commited atrocities and who have no affiliation to anything so the question realy rests on what one accepts as being absurd.

Voltaire doesn't say "all" so your distinction is superfluous. This thread is about that claim by Voltaire, so assertion that non-religious people have committed atrocities is equally irrelevant. The question is answered by the example shown, and you already accepted it as absurd, and really still has two l's in it.

Dr, Sheldon,
At face value Voltaire is correct, however, people who can be influenced can be made to do anything by several means so it is realy just a generalisation.

No it'snot,  I offered a very specific example as evidence.  Though there are others of course,  like your satanic fantasies for instance. As it was precisely such absurd beliefs that drove the atrocities of the Christian church and it's followers during the Inquisition.  Or the absurd antisemitic belief that Jewish people drink the blood of christian children,  and that they killed Jesus. As such absurd beliefs were instrumental in hundreds of years of persecution ending in the Holocaust.

Dr, Sheldon,
Yes it is, there are numerous cases of people being mislead into doing many things, read the current court cases etc;

People who have believed absurdities of course. As Voltaire suggested. ....

Dr, Sheldon,
You obviously do not read the up to date examples, for money, for jealousy, for hate, for love etc; etc;

I have no idea what examples you're talking about, examples for what? You have no idea what I do and do not read, so this another of those absurd dishonest slurs you like to make up to avoid addressing what is actually posted.

Voltaire's assertion is sound, and evidenced by multiple examples, from the absurd satanic and demonic fantasies that drove the Inquisition, to the example of religious terrorists who having been made to believe an absurdity are them made to commit atrocities, you yourself have even started a thread claiming this, yet here try to deny it, who knows why. Though that thread is mainly for you to rant and object about adults being free to take a drink when they feel like it, and have sex with other adults when they please, or to object that young women dress as they please, rather than how you think they should.

Dr, Sheldon,
Of all the crimes commited I doubt if any of the most henios, childlren killed by parents, rape, domestic abuse, acid thrown in faces, old people beaten up for pennies etc; have anything to do with absurdities, what is an absurdity to one may not be to another, no one can prove that what anyone believing in any faith is indulging in is an aburdity, it is only an opinion.

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                Of all the crimes commited I doubt if any of the most henios, childlren killed by parents, rape, domestic abuse, acid thrown in faces, old people beaten up for pennies etc; have anything to do with absurdities,

So what? No one has claimed they are, and this thread is not about such crimes. The thread simply asks whether you agree with Voltaire's assertion that those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. The example I offered was the belief that religious terrorists had been made to believe that they will be rewarded daily in paradise with 72 virgins for all eternity, and then been made to commit atrocities. Your examples are not at all relevant and seem to me to be another straw man argument.

Polyglide wrote:what is an absurdity to one may not be to another, no one can prove that what anyone believing in any faith is indulging in is an aburdity, it is only an opinion.

You have already accepted that the example is an absurdity, so again I'm not sure why you keep stating the obvious but irrelevant point that those who are made to believe absurdities, "BELIEVE THOSE ABSURDITIES"? I'd have thought this was obviously the point Voltaire was making, so it's a given, but of course since you already accepted that the example represents an absurdity I'm not sure why you're endlessly repeating this?

Is the belief an absurdity - YES
Have some people been made to believe this absurdity as if it's true - YES
Have those same people then been made to commit atrocities - and again YES.

That seems like a fairly compelling argument to support Voltaire's assertion.

Dr, Sheldon,
You believe it is an absurdity, I believe it is an absurdity
however, millions do not and they would think we absurd for thinking so.

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                You believe it is an absurdity, I believe it is an absurdity
however, millions do not and they would think we absurd for thinking so.

Oh ffs, I can't dumb this down any more for you, if they thought it was an absurdity they wouldn't have been made to believe it would they man, Jesus H christ why can't you grasp this?

Dr, Sheldon,
Calm down have a little rest then consider what is said.

Under the same banner as your reply, because you I and many others think it an absurdity just how do you substantiate that we are right, nothing according to you is 100%. and there are millions who think it not absurd.

Try the dictionary.

Let's see you attempt to evidence these millions whose opinion you laughably claim to know. 

If millions believe the these same absurdity these religious terrorists do,  then why are you claiming that it's the behaviour of UK citizens that is the root cause of their indoctrination . According to your latest piece of laughable bombast you claim to know that millions already believe this absurdity? How exactly?

Dr, Shedlon,
As far as I am aware all Muslims think the same as the terrorists but are not agreeable with the way in which they express their belief.

I have never said that the terrorists were influenced by anything, I have asked if one feels we are giving those intent on radicalising young people ammunition to do so.

You have a point though, is it possible that the terrorists were initially influenced by the immoral behaviour that abounds in the western world? and want a better and more acceptable way of life [ to them]