What now for Labour? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Phil Hornby wrote:I feel that Corbyn is sincere, polite, interesting and likeable - so are my neighbours but, like them, he isn't electable as Prime Minister.

In which case, why should we pay some phoney twicer to be something else?

A lot of people are too dumb, brainwashed, poorly educated to support Corbyn. We get dozy gits on £30 - 40k per year who vote Tory because they think it's in their interests to.....I know this because I work with people like this. And then we have poorer working class people voting UKIP because they're scared of foreigners changing their 'traditional' lives - when all the time it has been Tory and New Labour who have really been ripping their communities and lives apart.

I can only hope that there are enough sane people left to elect a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn..........and even then it's probably too late to escape the inevitable economic and societal catastrophes that will hit us in the next 20yrs.

sickchip wrote:I can only hope that there are enough sane people left to elect a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn.

Why would I want to view for either party? corbyn won't last until 2020

Good to see you back, Sickchip - and talking good sense as usual.

At the moment, I just count the damage week on week - I know the world and England are changing irrevocably and I just hope the next government will have the goodwill and the common sense to ensure that the changes are in the good interest of everyone - like you, I think Jeremy Corbyn could lead such a government

boatlady,

Thank you. And it's good to see you're still talking sense and understand what is happening, and what is needed.

ghost whistler,

Why would I want to view for either party? corbyn won't last until 2020


Ok! So what's your (realistic) options / alternative? Labour with Corbyn are the best option we've got - so I suggest you support Corbyn and the party.

oftenwrong wrote:Seasoned political writer Andrew Rawnsley describes Opposition prospects:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/27/tories-not-scared-jeremy-corbyn-this-bad-for-parliament-democracy

(Well, perhaps ghost whistler will enjoy it)

why should i care what peoplek like him think?

sickchip wrote:boatlady,

Thank you. And it's good to see you're still talking sense and understand what is happening, and what is needed.

ghost whistler,

Why would I want to view for either party? corbyn won't last until 2020


Ok! So what's your (realistic) options / alternative? Labour with Corbyn are the best option we've got - so I suggest you support Corbyn and the party.

I've given you the alternative, and repeatedly. Why would i choose to support another party of capital?

sickchip wrote:A lot of people are too dumb, brainwashed, poorly educated to support Corbyn. We get dozy gits on £30 - 40k per year who vote Tory because they think it's in their interests to.....I know this because I work with people like this. And then we have poorer working class people voting UKIP because they're scared of foreigners changing their 'traditional' lives - when all the time it has been Tory and New Labour who have really been ripping their communities and lives apart.

I can only hope that there are enough sane people left to elect a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn..........and even then it's probably too late to escape the inevitable economic and societal catastrophes that will hit us in the next 20yrs.

That has always been the case, and if people voted their own interest we'd have had socialism since the 1880's. It has always been the case, too, that if we don't fight it will get worse. That is what ideology, hegemony and so forth are all about. It is unbelievably naïve to think people whose views are shaped by the capitalist institutions and media will ever follow their own interest unless challenged again and again to distinguish arse from elbow. That is our work.

ghost whistler,
....but you have NOT offered any realistic solutions that are likely to occur in the near future. A vote for Green, UKIP, SNP, abstaining from voting, or whatever you offer will simply return a conservative government - anybody voting for anything except Labour should not really complain when their decision returns a cruel Tory government.....they only have themselves to blame. The increasing rise of smaller factions / parties within politics appears to suit the Tories very nicely. Look at Labour and the Greens - is there any reason why the green party should be a separate party from Labour, and SNP too - surely the ideologies of these parties could be embraced and become united under the Labour umbrella. It would provide a far stronger opposition to the odious Tory party.


Penderyn,

I agree, but it has become increasingly worse since the onset of neo-liberal capitalism at the beginning of the 80's. The manipulation of the mass psychology by media etc has become much more subtle and powerful. Consumerism and peer pressure are far more prevalent too, and the chaining of people to debt, especially via mortgages/housing costs, turn every man into an island.......which in turn weakens unity and unionship when it comes to fighting for rights and standing up for our fellow workers when an injustice is perceived to be done. I remember if someone was wrongly dismissed in the 70's the union and fellow workers would down tools and walk out in support of their co-worker. Do you think that would happen now?

i have repeatedly given you a solution, your problem is that you insist on rejecting it. This is no different than saying that voting Labour is a waste if noone votes for them.

I'm not interested in whether a tory government returns, i'm not interested whther a labour government returns. I'm not interested in either. I'm interested in direct action. You don't seem to grasp what that means. It means making these parties as irrelevant as their policies and recognising that we are who matter and that authoritarian society is undesirable.

but if you want to tug the forelock, go for it.

ghost whistler,
Ok! I'm in! When's your plan happening? It's so good everything's going to be hunky dory in a few years. Thanks for solving the political / economic / societal puzzle and leading the way to a brighter future for all.
Where do I join?

sickchip wrote:Where do I join?

Join your local Anarchist Federation, Solidarity Federation, talk to your union, persuade people to take direct action.

You won't achieve anything being facetious.

Nicky Morgan got heckled at the teachers conference. But heckling won't make anything change. If they went on strike, stayed out for as long as it took, and had solidarity from other unions as should be happening with the junior doctors (where's Labour?), this government would crumble.

But that won't happen. Better to pretend Corbyn will win in 2020.

Too many "if's" is the problem there.

ghost whistler,

Ok, will do.

oftenwrong wrote:Too many "if's" is the problem there.

I used that word once.

Again I invite you to offer a better alternative, so far you haven't.

ghost whistler wrote:Join your local Anarchist Federation, Solidarity Federation, talk to your union, persuade people to take direct action.

The historical problem is that anarchism has never won anywhere, except briefly, and their efforts in the Ukraine and in Spain ended in defeat, so giving up all other roads for direct action of their sort hardly looks a hopeful strategy, since in both those places, as far as I can learn, Anarchism is effectively dead, whereas despite all its many defeats, socialism is, if not flourishing, at least alive, everywhere.

Penderyn is very succinct in explaining the problem, which is that history shows that Anarchism, Nihilism and the like fall apart upon being tested. The Spanish Civil War included a ridiculous example when, in Barcelona POUM split into two factions that spent three days firing at each other from both sides of the same street.

Revolution compares with other human failings - any fool can start an affair but few know how to run two families successfully.

Penderyn wrote:The historical problem is that anarchism has never won anywhere, except briefly, and their efforts in the Ukraine and in Spain ended in defeat, so giving up all other roads for direct action of their sort hardly looks a hopeful strategy, since in both those places, as far as I can learn, Anarchism is effectively dead, whereas despite all its many defeats, socialism is, if not flourishing, at least alive, everywhere.

Great, so the alternative is...?

I've repeatedly explained that Labour are no different than the Tories.

oftenwrong wrote:Penderyn is very succinct in explaining the problem, which is that history shows that Anarchism, Nihilism and the like fall apart upon being tested.

They haven't fallen apart, they were destroyed. Capitalism is the dominant force. I've no interest in capitalism.

So you can support whatever you like, just dont' complain about the government you get when it's the government you want.

As anarchist communists we fight for a world without leaders, where power is shared equally amongst communities, and people are free to reach their full potential. We do this by supporting working class resistance to exploitation and oppression, organise alongside our neighbours and workmates, host informative events, and produce publications that help make sense of the world around us.

Marvellous stuff - feeling inspired - where do I sign up? Where's the infrastructure? How will this become a mass movement that will change the world?

I had dealings with the anarchists back in the '70's - back then it was mostly about biscuits - doesn't look very different now.

Don't mistake me. GW - I also want a radical change - but I'm not sure anarchism is the change.

If you want people to espouse revolution surely you need to assure them of something after the sturm und drang of battle?

ghost whistler,

I support capitalism, just not in it's present incarnation. Capitalism is perhaps the most natural political structure as it mirrors animal instinct, and nature - the jostle for 'position', leadership, power, etc amongst one's pack / tribe. However it needs to be tempered with compassion and consideration for others in the pack / tribe - at present those at the head are consumed by greed and this will ultimately prove detrimental to all - themselves included.

Nothing is ever perfect and never will be. However Labour, under Corbyn, are far more likely to listen to and be persuaded to act on behalf of 'ordinary' people, and us on the left, than the Tories. They are the only realistic hope of addressing at least some of our concerns over inequality, social balance, etc. We will achieve more supporting, and trying to influence Labour, in the near future than by turning our backs on reality and supporting Anarchist groups etc. I have sympathy with your clear frustration, and disillusion, with the political system.....I think many of us have been there; but as I keep repeating Labour is our best hope, and option, in the real world. Why don't you join the party, attend some meetings, and represent your concerns.......you never know, it might make a real difference.

The Labour Party is committed to parliamentary democracy and is not going to turn into a revolutionary movement at any time soon. If we’re going to debate the merits or otherwise of revolution, can we please do so in a more appropriate place? Thanks.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t955-you-say-you-want-a-revolution

As to where the Labour Party is going, I have little confidence that it will win the 2020 election, but I don’t think it would be any more likely to do so had Burnham, Cooper or Kendall been elected to lead it. At least with Corbyn and McDonnell, they won’t abstain on Tory welfare cuts, and they might make more people aware that there is an alternative to austerity. That has to be the starting point on what I fear could be a long road back – making the British public aware of just what a hideously corrupt and vicious government we have in power, easily the worst in my lifetime.

Some of you may find this blog by Will Davies interesting, in which he quotes Ben Jackson: “No matter how much of an outward-facing social movement Jeremy Corbyn transforms the Labour Party into, the basic problem of motivating public support for a social democratic agenda remains the same as it has been for three decades now: how to persuade voters concerned about their family’s living standards that greater collective provision will benefit them?”

http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/between-utopia-and-wonkery/

An extract from, and link to, the article by David Graeber which Davies mentions can be found here:-

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t596p120-whatever-happened-to-broken-britain-did-dave-manage-to-fix-it

Ivan,

Thanks for providing those links.

sickchip wrote:ghost whistler,

I support capitalism, just not in it's present incarnation. Capitalism is perhaps the most natural political structure as it mirrors animal instinct, and nature - the jostle for 'position', leadership, power, etc amongst one's pack / tribe. However it needs to be tempered with compassion and consideration for others in the pack / tribe - at present those at the head are consumed by greed and this will ultimately prove detrimental to all - themselves included.

Nothing is ever perfect and never will be. However Labour, under Corbyn, are far more likely to listen to and be persuaded to act on behalf of 'ordinary' people, and us on the left, than the Tories. They are the only realistic hope of addressing at least some of our concerns over inequality, social balance, etc. We will achieve more supporting, and trying to influence Labour, in the near future than by turning our backs on reality and supporting Anarchist groups etc. I have sympathy with your clear frustration, and disillusion, with the political system.....I think many of us have been there; but as I keep repeating Labour is our best hope, and option, in the real world. Why don't you join the party, attend some meetings, and represent your concerns.......you never know, it might make a real difference.

Capitalism doesn't mirror human nature at all. This is unsupported nonsense that capitalists have peddled for decades. It is simply untrue.

If you think capitalism is going to be tempered by capitalists, or that it can otherwise be 'tamed', you're just being gullible.

"nothing is ever perfect" is meaningless fatuous nonsense.

Labour under Corbyn won't get into power because the party will oust him or neuter him by 2020. He's already proven to be utterly incapable of dealing with the right wing element of his own party.

They will not address anything because the Labour party has no interest in fixing these things, if it did it would have done when it was in government.

Why on earth would I want to join the Labour party?

Ivan wrote:The Labour Party is committed to parliamentary democracy and is not going to turn into a revolutionary movement at any time soon. If we’re going to debate the merits or otherwise of revolution, can we please do so in a more appropriate place? Thanks.

I'm not discussing the merits or otherwise, i'm simply telling you that if you don't want things to change then vote Labour. If people aren't interested in doing anything that will actually change things for the better then by all means continue voting.

I feel the ongoing attempts to introduce ghost whistler to the paths of righteousness are akin to telling two small children not to eat the available plate of jam doughnuts because the sugar will harm their teeth in time...

there is nothing righteous in being knowingly complicit in austerity.

Is there any possibility of an outbreak of humour once the revolution has been conducted...?

ghost whistler wrote:Great, so the alternative is...?

I've repeatedly explained that Labour are no different than the Tories.

Labour will show little difference from the tories if we insist on wasting our time arguing about 'alternatives' instead of getting on organising and fighting the tories wherever we can, however we can.  Plenty of room for everyone!

I mean, ghost whistler, that most of us have better things to do than come round such Anarchist meetings as may happen arguing against their tactics - those attracted to them are not, on the whole, likely to join a political party, and are doubtless better employed as they are.    Is the best way to encourage direct action and so on to spend your time arguing with Labour Party supporters?   I'd have thought trade unionists, say, were rather better material, plus animal rights activists and all sorts of people acclimatised to such tactics.   There are masses of cynical and inactive people to be stirred into action of some kind, so wouldn't it be better for all of us to get on with it in the way we find acceptable?    That is not to say that there is not a vital place for theoretical discussion, but is the present moment that place?

In 1997, the Tory Party was in such disarray that Blair was kicking at an open door.

Here in 2016 the Tory Party is again in disarray. Don't give up just yet folks!

But noone is denying the tory party is fragile.

The problem is that they are supporting a non-alternative.

ghost whistler,

The problem is that they are supporting a non-alternative.

I would respectfully suggest Labour are a far more credible alternative than your 'fantasy island' pipe dream of whatever anarcho group you proffer as an alternative. You seem to exist in a bubble that distorts reality and are completely deluded if you think your suggested alternatives resemble anything approaching a realistic option. Wake up and smell the coffee, ghostie.

I'm not offering a group as an alternative.

Again, you misunderstand. Anarchism doesn't mean no rules.

So, tell us, what is the alternative -spell it out

labour lambeth council, pushing thorugh tory austerity by shutting down the library. well done you.

boatlady wrote:So, tell us, what is the alternative -spell it out

i've told you repeatedly. IO can only assume youre just being a twat

I tend to think that if one is going to resort to rudeness at least one might try to make the abuse original...

Yes, apart from the fact that an insult was unwarranted, something like “I can see that you’re nobody’s fool, but maybe someone will adopt you” might have been more subtle.

What now for Labour? I’m wondering if the Tata steel debacle could be a turning point, the moment when a substantial number of people wake up to the folly of the Thatcherite agenda which has dominated British politics since 1979. When a notorious right-winger like Peter Hitchens announces that he was wrong to be taken in by “privatisation, the unrestrained market and prophecies of a great share-owning democracy”, maybe the time has come when the policies of Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell will be given greater consideration.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t1099-were-the-1970s-as-bad-as-the-tories-claim

What now for Labour? I’m wondering if the Tata steel debacle could be a turning point, the moment when a substantial number of people wake up to the folly of the Thatcherite agenda which has dominated British politics since 1979. When a notorious right-winger like Peter Hitchens announces that he was wrong to be taken in by “privatisation, the unrestrained market and prophecies of a great share-owning democracy”, maybe the time has come when the policies of Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell will be given greater consideration.