What now for Labour? (Part 2)

by Penderyn Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

Phil Hornby wrote:I feel that Corbyn is sincere, polite, interesting and likeable - so are my neighbours but, like them, he isn't electable as Prime Minister.

In which case, why should we pay some phoney twicer to be something else?

by sickchip Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:52 pm

What now for Labour? I’m wondering if the Tata steel debacle could be a turning point, the moment when a substantial number of people wake up to the folly of the Thatcherite agenda which has dominated British politics since 1979. When a notorious right-winger like Peter Hitchens announces that he was wrong to be taken in by “privatisation, the unrestrained market and prophecies of a great share-owning democracy”, maybe the time has come when the policies of Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell will be given greater consideration.

thumbsup

by ghost whistler Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:36 pm

No the abuse was totally warranted.

by **Ivan** Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:58 pm

ghost whistler. I don’t think someone who voluntarily helps to run this forum, so that we can all vent our feelings, deserves to be abused. We’re genuinely not sure how you envisage direct action working effectively, and most of us just wish you would vent your justified anger at the Tory filth, rather than take it out on those who broadly agree with your aims, if not your methods.

I wouldn’t want to be a Labour councillor right now. You have to meet budgetary constraints imposed by Osborne, and I suspect that if you don’t, you would, as has happened in the past, be surcharged as an individual and effectively bankrupted. The Tory government gets local councils to do its dirty work for it, and then the insidious Cameron complains to Oxfordshire’s council about the cuts, pretending they’ve got nothing to do with him.

Study France in July 1789. The price of bread in Paris had doubled in a year. Study Petrograd in 1917. Most people were starving, and ice on the railway lines prevented food from getting to them. What’s going on in the UK right now – in the fifth (or is it sixth?) richest country in the world – is hideous, with one million people reliant on foodbanks. But about 63 million don’t rely on them. Others have jobs, mortgages to pay, children to feed and clothe, and they are either selfish or frightened, or maybe both. You won’t get the vast majority of people to revolt until the vast majority of people have nothing to lose by doing so.

I remember going on strike and a scab saying to me: “You strike, and get us a pay rise. I’ll carry on working and get paid, and when you succeed, I’ll get the pay rise as well”. However vile the Nazis were in Amsterdam during the Second World War, there was still someone to grass on Anne Frank and her family. People aren’t united, many tend to be selfish, and that’s how the Tories succeed time and again with their policies of divide and rule, picking off one group in society at a time.

We have to accept that most people aren’t prepared to take direct action, but could perhaps be persuaded to vote this evil scum out of power. The Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn may not be prepared to do as much as you and I would like, but it would do a lot more than the Blairites did and would be a thousand times better than the current disgusting regime. I think it was Bismarck who said that “politics is the art of the possible”. I for one would settle for half a cake, rather than continue with these bastards who will give us no cake and take our bread away as well.

by sassy Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:09 pm

Ivan, could not agree with you more. I stood for our local council and am heartily grateful I didn't get it. I'm on our CLP and the difficulties our Councillors are having trying to keep some semblence of a decent standard of services in the face of cuts is heartbreaking.

I've always been and activist, marched against Vietnam, marched against Iraq, marched against just about everything. The most inspiring day I had was last year when I went to the gathering they arrange every year at Burston Strike School, and Clive Lewis, who we had got to know through the CLP and Jeremy Corbyn where the speakers. JC will never give up his principles, and has shown that so many times recently. I think people underestimate just how popular he is and how he is determined to stick to his guns. Don't know if you saw this:

Jeremy Corbyn was mobbed by supporters when he took an unplanned walk through the streets of Bristol on Friday afternoon.

The Labour leader reportedly infuriated photographers and the press by ignoring them, and instead talked to shoppers and young mothers in Bristol’s Easton district.

Ian Onions, the political editor of the Bristol Post, described it as “a walkabout by a political leader like no other”.

“Instead of the usual stage-managed performance, meeting and greeting people specially handpicked for the occasion, Jeremy Corbyn took to the streets of Easton to talk, listen and have his photo taken with shoppers, traders and passersby,” Onions reported.

Tristan Cork, writing in the Western Daily Press, reported that Corbyn ignored spin doctors by stopping to listen to people who approached him in the street.

More at: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/02/jeremy-corbyn-mobbed-by-supporters-during-bristol-walkabout

by ghost whistler Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:38 pm

I’m wondering if the Tata steel debacle could be a turning point, the moment when a substantial number of people wake up to the folly of the Thatcherite agenda which has dominated British politics since 1979.

the best thing that could happen would be that the steelworkers take over the means of production. This won't be easy, but with the support of the community and the solidarity from other members of the working class, other unions etc, this could be an important milestone in the eradication of corporate power. They will have to act quickly otherwise someone else will take over ownership of the steelworks and any attempt to take over will be met with even greater resistance. Obviously the police, who are just there to defend capital (take one look at the miners strike to see) will try and do their masters' bidding, but if the workers stand strong they can win because ultimately what are the government going to do? Send in the SAS? What will an offshore foreign corporation do? Send in their own security goons?

by ghost whistler Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:45 pm

Ivan wrote:ghost whistler. I don’t think someone who voluntarily helps to run this forum, so that we can all vent our feelings, deserves to be abused. We’re genuinely not sure how you envisage direct action working effectively, and most of us just wish you would vent your justified anger at the Tory filth, rather than take it out on those who broadly agree with your aims, if not your methods.

I wouldn’t want to be a Labour councillor right now. You have to meet budgetary constraints imposed by Osborne, and I suspect that if you don’t, you would, as has happened in the past, be surcharged as an individual and effectively bankrupted. The Tory government gets local councils to do its dirty work for it, and then the insidious Cameron complains to Oxfordshire’s council about the cuts, pretending they’ve got nothing to do with him.

Labour councillors are given alternatives all the time and they reject them. There is no excuse to say "our hands are tied". No excuse at all.

I've repeatedly said that people are completely free to disagree with me. That certain clowns repeatedly ignore what I say is why they deserve abuse. The fact is that if you don't want to engage in the only action that will get results, then you better get used to a lifetime of austerity. Your choice

by sickchip Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:27 pm

ghost whistler,
That certain clowns repeatedly ignore what I say

Because what you say, and offer as alternatives, is unrealistic nonsense and not a real alternative at all.....you offer empty deluded fantasy world politics that is token gesture protest at best. I've repeatedly asked you to offer realistic alternatives to this odious Tory government, and you consistently fail to offer an adequate response.

The fact that you treat others here to your ill placed, and arrogant, abuse and then say they deserve it, makes me think your solution would lean more towards seeing an authoritarian dictatorship in place rather than a seeking to create a free and fair world. In whatever universe you inhabit it seems we can all be free as long as your letter is law and we do as you say.

by sassy Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:52 pm

ghost whistler wrote:Labour councillors are given alternatives all the time and they reject them. There is no excuse to say "our hands are tied". No excuse at all.

I've repeatedly said that people are completely free to disagree with me. That certain clowns repeatedly ignore what I say is why they deserve abuse. The fact is that if you don't want to engage in the only action that will get results, then you better get used to a lifetime of austerity. Your choice

As I'm all for taking up the cudgels, I'm really intrigued to know what direct action you are talking about, and that isn't being sarcastic, I'd really like to know.

by oftenwrong Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:57 pm

Privatisation was of course a basic component of Thatcherism, but with the benefit of perfect hindsight it's easy to see that there never was (or is yet), enough investment capital available from purely British resources.

Foreign investors spotted the potential and have piled in, with the result that e.g. we now have the most expensive energy in Europe because German, French and American shareholders want a return on their money.

by ghost whistler Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:15 am

sassy wrote:As I'm all for taking up the cudgels, I'm really intrigued to know what direct action you are talking about, and that isn't being sarcastic, I'd really like to know.

Take a look at what the people in Lambeth are doing to stand up to their LABOUR council.

by oftenwrong Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:47 am

ghost whistler wrote:
Take a look at what the people in Lambeth are doing to stand up to their LABOUR council.

What now for Labour? (Part 2) - Page 12 SaveLambethLibraries5-3-16web-10

Lambeth residents are protesting against plans to close Libraries, which results from central government's cuts in funding to local councils. The protests are being made in the wrong place, against the wrong people.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/tag/view/412

Where I live, the Library is being kept open by voluntary unpaid amateurs. This Tory administration would like EVERYTHING to be run by unpaid volunteers at local level, so that taxes on the wealthy could be cut again and again.

by ghost whistler Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:09 pm

The plans to close the libraries are Labour plans. Labour are the council, they are making this decision. Labour are responsible, stop making excuses.

And read the link you posted ffs.

by Penderyn Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:46 pm

ghost whistler wrote:The plans to close the libraries are Labour plans. Labour are the council, they are making this decision.

The tories, as you know, are destroying local democracy by taking away all its money.

by ghost whistler Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:16 pm

Penderyn wrote:The tories, as you know, are destroying local democracy by taking away all its money.

and what are Labour doing about it, other than selling off prized community assets? Do you know anything about the Carnegie building? No, you're just another apologist.

by **Ivan** Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:44 pm

ghost whistler. I’ve read the article in the link. Cutting any library is a moronic thing to do, and it certainly sounds as if the Carnegie library in Lambeth is important to the local community. It looks like a big mistake to shut it.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/42463/Carnegie+library+occupation+deepens+cracks+in+the+austerity+Labour+Party+in+Lambeth

I’ve also read one of the related articles offered on the same page, which starts:-

New killer cuts hit councils - and help give businesses more power

The Tories have unveiled plans to slash council funding to the bone. The cuts will make life unbearable for the most vulnerable people - and hurt millions more. Children’s centres will go. Libraries will close. Older people who can’t feed or wash themselves properly will be left without care workers to help them. People with mental health problems or who are homeless will find it harder to get help. Victims of violence will be left without support. In Oxfordshire the council has even put HIV prevention services in the firing line to cut costs. But this ideological project isn’t just about money. It’s about getting businesses to run council services and hollowing out local democracy.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/42175/New+killer+cuts+hit+councils+-+and+help+give+businesses+more+power

As I’ve said before, I wouldn’t want to be a councillor and be expected to do the Tories’ dirty work for them. But the situation is that councils get most of their funding from the government, they are restricted on how far they can increase council tax, and the Tories have cut the grants to Labour councils much more deeply than they have to Tory ones. Please, without being abusive to anyone here – it’s not nice and it doesn’t help this discussion between people who are all anti-Tory – can you tell us what you think councillors in this dilemma should do? Cut something else? Maybe; the article suggests that a gym could go as there are two others “down the bottom of the road”. Refuse to set a budget? Then a Tory minister will just take over control from elected councillors, as Pickles did in Rotherham. Spend money beyond the set limits and get surcharged (and in effect, bankrupted) as individuals? I don’t have the answer, but I do know that the Tories would laugh if they could see us squabbling over a problem which they have created. ‘Divide and rule’ is the whole secret of Tory political success, setting one group against another and, even better if they can manage it, one group within itself.

P.S. If you decide to reply to this, please don't copy/paste the whole of what I've written; maybe just a sentence or two? I'm sure nobody wants to read it more than once! Thanks.

by sassy Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:18 pm

ghost whistler wrote:Take a look at what the people in Lambeth are doing to stand up to their LABOUR council.

And what good is that. Here we got together and took over the library with volunteers to keep it going until the council have enough money to run it again, and they are never going to be able to do that all the time the Tories are in power and cutting their budgets. Our council tax has just risen, but that is to be used to fund things like the fire services (we just had a terrible fire in the heart of the town and the Tory councillors voted to cut the fire service to 1 engine) and social care for children and old people, there will be none left over for the library.

by oftenwrong Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:46 pm

ghost whistler wrote:The plans to close the libraries are Labour plans. Labour are the council, they are making this decision. Labour are responsible, stop making excuses.

....

What's happening there, gw?
https://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/my-services/leisure/libraries/find-a-library/yourlocallibrary/

by ghost whistler Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:26 pm

Post deleted - if members cannot debate with civility I would suggest they keep silent - personal abuse is NOT acceptable on this forum.
boatlady

by **Phil Hornby** Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:33 pm

The art of debate is not dead.

Not quite, anyway... Rolling Eyes

by oftenwrong Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:02 pm

The struggle continues ..

What now for Labour? (Part 2) - Page 12 HHEJ_04

by Penderyn Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:46 pm

ghost whistler wrote:and what are Labour doing about it, other than selling off prized community assets? Do you know anything about the Carnegie building? No, you're just another apologist.

I am not an apologist at all. When the Labour local authorities tried to do battle with the central government back in the days of Thatcher, you know what happened. What proportion of the people would at this moment engage in direct action against the Government? Apart from sniping at the Labour Party, what effective and possible action do you propose, unless we change the political atmosphere?

by ghost whistler Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:42 am

The post will not be deleted because I will not teolerate doxing. Sort out the conduct of people on this site or get effed.

by ghost whistler Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:44 am

oftenwrong wrote:The struggle continues ..

Oh good. Another march.

Because those have worked so well thus far haven't they.

And another chance to listen to capitalist and tory apologist, Owen Jones, as well as that egomaniac Sam Fairbarn who thinks this is his personal platform. Worse than Goeorge Galloway ffs.

Maybe this time we'll be spared the ugly spectacle of professional misogynist, woo woo peddler and politically ignorant comedian, Russell Brand.

by ghost whistler Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:45 am

Penderyn wrote:I am not an apologist at all. When the Labour local authorities tried to do battle with the central government back in the days of Thatcher, you know what happened. What proportion of the people would at this moment engage in direct action against the Government? Apart from sniping at the Labour Party, what effective and possible action do you propose, unless we change the political atmosphere?

And waiting 4 years in the vain hope that Corbyn will still be leader so you can vote for another capitalist party who doesn't represent your interests will work?

by sickchip Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:11 am

And waiting 4 years in the vain hope that Corbyn will still be leader

....and how long you going to be waiting for your unrealistic fantasy politics to happen, ghostie?

by ghost whistler Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:02 pm

sickchip wrote:And waiting 4 years in the vain hope that Corbyn will still be leader

....and how long you going to be waiting for your unrealistic fantasy politics to happen, ghostie?

Explain the validity of the comparison.

Then explain why you continue to ignore the points I make.

Deleted - we won't have this kind of abuse, please
boatlady

What you can't do is reasonably believe that will make any difference whatsoever. What do you think Corbyn is actually going to do if he gets in power? YOu actually believe he will reverse any of this? Get real.

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:15 pm

Do we know who would be your ideal Prime Minister, ghost whistler?

Or is my notion of such a post under your preferred system just naïve ?

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:25 pm

ghost whistler wrote:

.... explain why you continue to ignore the points I make.

What now for Labour? (Part 2) - Page 12 You-know-im-right

(apologies to Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD.)

by Penderyn Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:36 pm

sickchip wrote:And waiting 4 years in the vain hope that Corbyn will still be leader

....and how long you going to be waiting for your unrealistic fantasy politics to happen, ghostie?

Well, why not do something useful instead of waiting for someone else to do it, if you are so obsessed with the Party? I don't believe in fuhrers - I believe in the Struggle, me.

by ghost whistler Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:27 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:Do we know who would be your ideal Prime Minister, ghost whistler?

Or is my notion of such a post under your preferred system just naïve ?

why do i need a prime minister?

by sickchip Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:12 pm

ghost whistler,

Can you provide a link to the post in which you explain what you envisage as an alternative to our present political parties and how your 'system' would work? If not, can you explain it again? You keep telling me, and others, you've told us but I'm struggling to find your detailed explanation. Once your 'direct action' has worked.....what then?

Thanks in advance.

by ghost whistler Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:43 pm

sickchip wrote:Can you provide a link to the post in which you explain what you envisage as an alternative to our present political parties and how your 'system' would work?

Google the Anarchist FAQ

by oftenwrong Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:45 am

Revolution has never been restricted to the Left Wing only. What do you think would be our likely situation after a power-grab in Britain reflecting those by Dictators including Franco, Mussolini, Pinochet, Galtieri, Perón, Lee Kuan Yew, or even our own home-grown aspirants such as Oswald Moseley?

What now for Labour? (Part 2) - Page 12 Th?&id=OIP.M70b621665fbe7283205b15e393f75a70o0&w=198&h=198&c=0&pid=1

What now for Labour? (Part 2) - Page 12 Th?&id=OIP.M70b621665fbe7283205b15e393f75a70o0&w=198&h=198&c=0&pid=1

by **Phil Hornby** Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:39 pm

Or, indeed, Oswald Mosley - 'e was another one... Very Happy

by **astradt1** Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:37 pm

Danny DeVito Wants Jeremy Corbyn To Be Prime Minister

The Hollywood star said he believed the Labour leader would make a “great PM” and do a better job than David Cameron, who has faced intense pressure to detail his financial affairs since the Panama Papers leaks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/danny-devito-wants-jeremy-corbyn-to-be-prime-minister_uk_570787f2e4b00c769e2dacfd?utm_hp_ref=uk

Watch the video......

by ghost whistler Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:08 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Revolution has never been restricted to the Left Wing only. What do you think would be our likely situation after a power-grab in Britain reflecting those by Dictators including Franco, Mussolini, Pinochet, Galtieri, Perón, Lee Kuan Yew, or even our own home-grown aspirants such as Oswald Moseley?

post deleted - if posters cannot debate civilly, much better they remain silent
boatlady

by ghost whistler Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:17 pm

astradt1 wrote:
Danny DeVito Wants Jeremy Corbyn To Be Prime Minister

The Hollywood star said he believed the Labour leader would make a “great PM” and do a better job than David Cameron, who has faced intense pressure to detail his financial affairs since the Panama Papers leaks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/danny-devito-wants-jeremy-corbyn-to-be-prime-minister_uk_570787f2e4b00c769e2dacfd?utm_hp_ref=uk

Watch the video......

why

by boatlady Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:34 pm

Easy to dismiss Danny de Vito, but he does talk a lot of sense in that clip
'I like the idea of people telling the truth' - oh me too, Danny, me too

by ghost whistler Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:46 pm

Why should I pay any attention to the opinion of a hollywood actor? He's perfectly entitled to one and I have no beef with him as a person, but why is it relevant?

by boatlady Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:04 pm

You don't have to agree with him - you may not have noticed that other people also have opinions and some of those people liked what he said - you don't have to pay any attention - you can just choose to ignore that part of the discussion - what you can't do is abuse people for not sharing your opinions

by ghost whistler Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:51 pm

boatlady wrote:You don't have to agree with him

What relevance is his opinion? Why is this being posted at all? He has no stake in any of this, he doesn't live in Britain and has no clue about the issues british society faces.

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