Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

by **Ivan** Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

I used to think it was breathtaking arrogance and hypocrisy for those countries which have nuclear weapons to make judgements about which other countries could, or couldn’t, have them as well. After all, if you want to take the moral high ground on this issue, shouldn’t you get rid of your own nuclear weapons before telling other countries that they can’t have them?

My opinion changed immediately when I heard the President of the Islamofascist state of Iran (who goes by some name like ‘Ironmydinnerjacket’) say, on the first of several occasions, that he wanted "to wipe Israel off the map”. George W. Bush, with his talk of 'crusades' and his readiness to go to war against Saddam Hussein “because he tried to kill my daddy”, was a dangerous man to have in charge of nuclear weapons, but no Western power has talked of wiping out nations.

The five permanent members of the UN Security Council, and Germany, have expressed their "increasing concern" over Iran's nuclear programme, and they have called for clarification over any possible military uses. Iran insists that the programme is for purely peaceful purposes, but the International Atomic Agency says they want to send a high level mission to Iran to clear up any confusion.

With nuclear weapons, Iran could do very serious damage to Israel, and a pre-emptive strike by the Israelis must be a strong possibility. Should we support that, or even precipitate it? Are attempts at negotiation with Iran a waste of time?

by witchfinder Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:48 pm

RockOnBrother

You do not seem to understand

Both I and virtualy every other person in the UK and accross Europe who strongly believes in a free and independent Palestine, also strongly believe in the right of Israel to exist and to continue as a free and independent state for the Israeli people.

It would appear RockOnBrother that you are completely one sided, you seem not to care nor be bothered about the continuing plight of Palestinians who are innocent, the women and children, those that have hade their land taken off them, those that have had their homes bulldozed to the ground and told to "get out".

From around the 3rd century until the late 20th century the majority of the population of what is now Israel was Muslim, for well over 1500 years the Jews were a minority, the Jews were a minority when Israel was born in 1949.
The state of Israel was created by terrorism, it was created by taking other peoples land, and taking other peoples land continues on today.

The fact is that though you may agree that Israel has the right to exist and live in peace - so does the Palestinians, or is it a matter of one rule for Israel but a different rule for Palestine. ?

by Guest Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:37 pm

witchfinder wrote:
RockOnBrother

You do not seem to understand

I understand perfectly.

witchfinder wrote:
Both I and virtualy every other person in the UK and accross Europe who strongly believes in a free and independent Palestine, also strongly believe in the right of Israel to exist and to continue as a free and independent state for the Israeli people.

One who overtly or covertly supports the sixty-four war of extermination against Israeli Jews does not support the right of Israel to exist and to continue as a free and independent state for Israeli Jews.

witchfinder wrote:
It would appear RockOnBrother that you are completely one sided, you seem not to care nor be bothered about the continuing plight of Palestinians who are innocent, the women and children, those that have hade their land taken off them, those that have had their homes bulldozed to the ground and told to "get out".

It would appear, Witchfinder, that effort expended on determining how many sides I might have could be more profitably invested in learning the CRUEL history of Arab attempts to exterminate Palestinian/Israeli Jews.

I choose to care and to be bothered about the continuing plight of innocent Israeli Jews. I choose to care and to be bothered about innocent Jewish women, children, and men that have been blown to bloody shreds of flesh, bone, blood, and brains by bestial homicide bombers and bestial launchers of rockets in the streets, cafes, nightclubs, buses, and homes in their native land. I choose to care and to be bothered about the eight hundred fifty thousand Jews who were forced from their lands by bullies in Arab states and other Muslim-controlled states, lands that their families had owned and occupied for decades, centuries, and millennia.

witchfinder wrote:
From around the 3rd century until the late 20th century the majority of the population of what is now Israel was Muslim, for well over 1500 years the Jews were a minority, the Jews were a minority when Israel was born in 1949.

There were no Muslims prior to the 7th century AD. Jews lived in Israel from about the 14th Century until now. Europeans forced most from Israel into various parts of Europe and Arab lands in the late 1st Century AD. Europeans’ de-Jewification of Europe was completed by 1945, leaving surviving Jews nowhere to go but back home for real, back home to Israel, their homeland for three thousand four hundred years.

Jews are a minority, period. There are sixty-three million Brits out of a total population of sixty-three million persons in the UK; there are thirteen million four hundred thousand Jews out of a total population of seven billion in the world.

witchfinder wrote:
The state of Israel was created by terrorism…

The State of Israel was created by United Nations mandate.

witchfinder wrote:
… it was created by taking other peoples land, and taking other peoples land continues on today.

The State of Israel was created by United Nations-mandated partition, rejected by Arab bullies, via word prior to its creation, and via a sixty-four year long war of extermination against Israeli Jews upon its creation.

witchfinder wrote:
The fact is that though you may agree that Israel has the right to exist and live in peace…

Israel has a right to exist no matter to what I may agree.

witchfinder wrote:
… so does the Palestinians, or is it a matter of one rule for Israel but a different rule for Palestine. ?

When bullies choose to initiate a war of extermination against Jews in their native land, taken from them by Europeans, bullies choose to be treated as enemies by those that, for sixty-four plus years, they have attempted to exterminate. Those are the rules of survival Israeli Jews have learned to ensure the survival of Israeli Jews.

The State of Israel has been at war for sixty-four years. Its enemies penetrate Israel’s borders to perpetrate genocidal rocket attacks, genocidal homicide bombings murders, and periodic armed attacks by overwhelmingly numerically-superior organized military forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon, backed by Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and other nations. The moment Israel lets down its guard, Israel seals its doom.

Your European “brothers” in Germany, aided and abetted by your European “brothers” throughout mainland Europe, managed to exterminate six million Jews in less than six years. Prior to September 1939, eighteen million Jews lived worldwide; by September 1945, twelve million Jews, two thirds, survived. That’s genocide by Europeans, your European “brothers”. Today, the de-Jewification of Europe remains fact. Perhaps that is not of concern to Europeans. It is of concern to me.

Of surviving Jews today, approximately thirteen million four hundred thousand precious human souls, about six million live and thrive as respected and honored citizens of my United States of America. Over here, we generally don’t exterminate Jews; we embrace them as fellow humans and citizens.

by **astradt1** Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:06 pm

Europeans’ de-Jewification of Europe was completed by 1945,

So there are no Jews living in Europe?????

by oftenwrong Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:41 pm

Is anti-semitism an expression of racial hatred?
How might "pro-semitism" be described by a zealot?

by Guest Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:46 pm

Duplicate posting in error. Delete please.

by oftenwrong Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:16 pm

Seen it all before. Next!

by Guest Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:47 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?
by RockOnBrother on Thu 11 Oct 2012 - 23:52

Perhaps many Europeans’ disdain for Israel’s internal and external security stems from modern Europeans’ familial ties with recent and not-so-recent ancestral family members who either participated in or did not effectively oppose the de-Jewification of their homelands.

Holocaust Encyclopedia

Before the Nazi takeover of power in 1933, Europe had a vibrant and mature Jewish culture. By 1945, most European Jews--two out of every three--had been killed. Most of the surviving remnant of European Jewry decided to leave Europe. Hundreds of thousands established new lives in Israel, the United States, Canada, Australia, Great Britain, South America, and South Africa.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Copyright © United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, DC
Terms of Use
Use of Content from this Web Site
The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (“Museum”) invites its Web visitors to use the content of its Web site for personal, educational, and other noncommercial purposes. By using this Web site, you agree to abide by the following terms.

Full text: http://www.ushmm.org/priv_acc/terms/

The de-Jewification of Europe, by the numbers, 1933 to 1950, 1933 to the present.

Figure #1^a

Comparisons 1933-1950, 1933-present, Jewish populations by European nations

Nation 1933 1950 Present Difference 1933-1950 Percent, 1950/1933 Difference 1933-Present Percent, Present/1933
Poland 3,000,000 45,000 3,200 -2,955,000 1.50% -2,996,800 0.11%
Romania 980,000 280,000 9,700 -700,000 28.57% -970,300 0.99%
Germany 565,000 37,000 119,000 -528,000 6.55% -446,000 21.06%
Hungary 445,000 190,000 48,600 -255,000 42.70% -396,400 10.92%
United Kingdom 300,000 450,000 292,000 150,000 150.00% -8,000 97.33%
Austria 250,000 18,000 9,000 -232,000 7.20% -241,000 3.60%
France 225,000 235,000 483,500 10,000 104.44% 258,500 214.89%
Bulgaria 50,000 6,500 1,400 -43,500 13.00% -48,600 2.80%
Italy 48,000 35,000 28,400 -13,000 72.92% -19,600 59.17%
Total 5,863,000 1,296,500 994,800 -4,566,500 22.11% -4,868,200 16.97%

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Figure #2^b

Comparisons 1933-1950 Jewish populations by European nations

Nation 1933 1950 Difference 1933-1950 Percent, 1950/1933
Poland 3,000,000 45,000 -2,955,000 1.50%
Soviet Union (Europe) 2,525,000 2,000,000 -525,000 79.21%
Romania 980,000 280,000 -700,000 28.57%
Germany 565,000 37,000 -528,000 6.55%
Hungary 445,000 190,000 -255,000 42.70%
Czechoslovakia 357,000 17,000 -340,000 4.76%
United Kingdom 300,000 450,000 150,000 150.00%
Austria 250,000 18,000 -232,000 7.20%
France 225,000 235,000 10,000 104.44%
Greece 100,000 7,000 -93,000 7.00%
Yugoslavia 70,000 3,500 -66,500 5.00%
Bulgaria 50,000 6,500 -43,500 13.00%
Italy 48,000 35,000 -13,000 72.92%
Total 8,915,000 3,324,000 -5,591,000 37.29%

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Figure #3^c

Comparisons 1933-Present Jewish populations by European nations

Nation 1933 Present Difference 1933-Present Percent, Present/1933
Poland 3,000,000 3,200 -2,996,800 0.11%
Soviet Union (Europe)^d 2,525,000 325,100 -2,199,900 12.88%
Romania 980,000 9,700 -970,300 0.99%
Germany 565,000 119,000 -446,000 21.06%
Hungary 445,000 48,600 -396,400 10.92%
United Kingdom 300,000 292,000 -8,000 97.33%
Austria 250,000 9,000 -241,000 3.60%
France 225,000 483,500 258,500 214.89%
The Netherlands 156,000 30,000 -126,000 19.23%
Lithuania 155,000 4,000 -151,000 2.58%
Latvia 95,600 10,385 -85,215 10.86%
Yugoslavia^e 70,000 3,100 -66,900 4.43%
Belgium 60,000 30,300 -29,700 50.50%
Bulgaria 50,000 1,400 -48,600 2.80%
Italy 48,000 28,400 -19,600 59.17%
Sweden 6,700 15,000 8,300 223.88%
Denmark 5,700 6,400 700 112.28%
Estonia 4,600 2,100 -2,500 45.65%
Spain 4,000 12,000 8,000 300.00%
Portugal 1,200 500 -700 41.67%
Total 8,946,800 1,433,685 -7,513,115 16.02%

Includes nations for which 1933, 1950, and current Jewish populations are available.
Includes nations for which 1933 and 1950 Jewish populations are available.
Includes nations for which 1933 and present Jewish populations are available.
Present Jewish populations of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.
Present Jewish populations of Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbia.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Delimitation: Jewish population data not found for all European nations for all sampled time frames, 1933, 1950, and the present. Jewish population data listed under “present” is the most recent data found, usually from 2010 or later.

Due to Forumotion’s formatting limitations, Figures #1, #2, and #3 do not transfer to Cutting Edge as charts. Last row of each figure is explained below.

Figure #1: Total Jewish populations of listed European nations for 1933 (5,863,000), 1950 (1,296,500), and the present (994,800); total population difference 1933-1950 (-4,566,500); percent, 1950/1933 (22.11%); total population difference, 1933-present (-4,868,200); percent, present/1933 (16.97%).

In figure #1, from 1933 to 1950, the listed European nations’ total Jewish population decreased from 5,863,000 to 1,296,500, a 4,566,500 drop-off. The 1950 total was 22.11% of the 1933 total.

In figure #1, from 1933 to the present, the listed European nations’ total Jewish population decreased from 5,863,000 to 994,800, a 4,868,200 drop. The present total is 16.97% of the 1933 total.
Figure #2: Total Jewish populations of listed European nations for 1933 (8,915,000), and 1950 (3,324,000); total population difference 1933-1950 (-5,591,000); percent, 1950/1933 (37.29%).

In figure #2, from 1933 to 1950, the listed European nations’ total Jewish population decreased from 8,915,000 to 3,324,000, a 5,591,000 drop. The 1950 total was 37.29% of the 1933 total.
Figure #3: Total Jewish populations of listed European nations for 1933 (8,946,800), and the present (1,433,685); total population difference, 1933-present (-7,513,115); percent, present/1933 ().

In figure #3, from 1933 to the present, the listed European nations’ total Jewish population decreased from 8,946,800 to 1,433,685, a 7,513,115 drop. The present total is 16.02% of the 1933 total.

by oftenwrong Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:29 am

When does an interest in something become a fixation?

by **astradt1** Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:46 pm

I wonder what the figures for the Jewish population of the USA 1933 to the Present is?

By 1945, most European Jews--two out of every three--had been killed. Most of the surviving remnant of European Jewry decided to leave Europe. Hundreds of thousands established new lives in Israel, the United States, Canada, Australia, Great Britain, South America, and South Africa.

That’s genocide by Europeans, your European “brothers”. Today, the de-Jewification of Europe remains fact.

Don't you just love Roc's broad sweeping statements

by oftenwrong Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:01 pm

This may be the point at which someone brings the thread back to the topic, "Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons." It's a very patronising choice of words, which assumes that an affirmative answer is both logical and enforceable.

There's a very old story about a colony of mice who were being terrorised by a cat, and held a discussion in which it was determined to put a bell around the cat's neck so as to provide ample warning of its approach.

An older and wiser mouse then asked, "But who is going to attach the bell to the cat?"

by ROB Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:42 am

Simon Wiesenthal Center Urges Chancellor Merkel, Bundestag To Restore Rights Of Jews And Muslims To Perform Circumcisions
July 5, 2012

Officials of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a leading Jewish human rights NGO, are urging German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Bundestag leaders to take immediate legislative steps to ensure the rights of Jews and Muslims to continue the age-old practice of circumcising their male children. “It would be a stain on today's Germany to have this ruling stand,” wrote Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, founder and dean and associate dean in a July 5th letter to Chancellor Merkel.

The rabbis wrote that the judicial ruling in Cologne "is an attack on one of the fundamental principles of Judaism. For 3,500 years, every male child has entered the Jewish people through the rite of circumcision. We are not talking about a mere custom, but a biblical principle that has defined the Jewish people from time immemorial,” They added that, "Jews circumcised their children even at the risk of their lives when tyrants such as Antiochus and Stalin barred it. From the outset of the Nazi era, German Jews were under attack for their beliefs and practices, including circumcision. Hitler said in one of his infamous anti-Semitic rants, ‘…Conscience is a Jewish invention, it is a blemish like circumcision.’”

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=11943233

Jews, including Jewish rabbis, often stand up to protect the unalienable human rights of Muslims. I tend to trust such folks a bit more than I trust a Looney Tunes prime minister and a coven of intolerant ayatollah theocrats from Iran.

by ROB Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:58 am

Simon Wiesenthal Center: Iranian Calls to Destroy Jewish People Unparalleled Since Nazi Germany
Urge World Powers To Seek Indictment for Incitement to Genocide - A Crime Against Humanity
February 6, 2012

The Simon Wiesenthal Center charged today that recent statements by Iran’s Supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei along with a detailed blueprint for the destruction of the Jewish people posted on a website run by the head of the Iranian Parliament's research center, constituted a pre-genocidal crime against humanity, unparalleled since Nazi Germany.

WND, an online news service revealed that the Iranian website Alef has posted a long, detailed plan to wipe out Israel’s infrastructure, annihilate the Jewish State and murder Jews worldwide: http://www.alef.ir/vdcepw8zwjh8ewi.b9bj.html?142262

… Ayatollah Ali Khamenei… called Israel "a cancerous tumor" that had to be removed. Now Iranian analyst Alireza Forghani writing on the Alef website (and posted on the official FARS news agency) details a plan for Iran to remove “this corrupting material” to kill all the Jews and annihilate Israel.

“This is the first time since the Nazis' Final Solution that such explicit plans for a genocide against the Jewish people is being promoted,” charged Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, dean and founder and associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a leading Jewish human rights NGO.

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=11622141

Meanwhile, Iran’s Supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, incites people to annihilate the State of Israel and exterminate Jews worldwide.

Since the immoral ayatollah seeks to finish what Uncle Adolf started, a moral man like me must choose to oppose this evil regime in any way possible.

by methought Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:10 am

When bullies choose to initiate a war of extermination against ... in their native land, taken from them by Europeans, bullies choose to be treated as enemies

by ROB Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:09 pm

'I see no future for Jews in the Netherlands'
Former Dutch EU commissioner says "recognizable" Jews are no longer safe in Netherlands due to Muslim anti-Semitism.
By JPOST.COM STAFF
LAST UPDATED: 12/07/2010 14:09

Former European Union Commissioner Frits Bolkenstein said that Jews have no future in the Netherlands and recommended that they emigrate to the US or Israel, Dutch magazine Elsevier reported on Tuesday.

According to a book on Dutch Judaism, released this week, Bolkestein, former leader of the right-wing VVD party, said that due to anti-Semitism amongst young Moroccans Jews who look like Jews - those who wear kippahs or payot - should leave Holland for their own safety.

"I see no future for recognizable Jews, in particular because of anti-Semitism, specifically in Dutch Moroccans, who continue to grow in number," Bolkestein reportedly said.

The former politician added that the many Arab television channels in the Netherlands contribute to the spread of anti-Semitism. He said he has no confidence in proposed measures to combat anti-Jewish sentiment.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=198382

Former European Union Commissioner Frits Bolkenstein seems to affirm that, in the Netherlands, aided by Arab television stations’ broadcasts of anti-Jewish content, the de-Jewification of Europe continues.

by oftenwrong Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:03 pm

I've not encountered the word de-Jewification elsewhere, but if Britain is typical of Europe the reality is that Jewish people have been assimilated into the general population.

Muslims are to be found all over Europe, but wherever they are tend to preserve their original customs of dress and culture.

Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons? - Page 8 Image

Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons? - Page 8 Image

by ROB Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:10 am

methought wrote:
Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?
by methought on Sun 14 Oct 2012 - 10:10

When bullies choose to initiate a war of extermination against ... in their native land, taken from them by Europeans, bullies choose to be treated as enemies

You’ve omitted something from your quote of my post of Friday 12 October 2012 at 15:37.

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?
by RockOnBrother on Fri 12 Oct 2012 - 15:37

When bullies choose to initiate a war of extermination against Jews in their native land, taken from them by Europeans, bullies choose to be treated as enemies…

You’ve omitted “Jews” from your quote of my post of Friday 12 October 2012 at 15:37. Europeans have been omitting Jews from Europe since 1933, an activity that, according to former European Union Commissioner Frits Bolkenstein, remains ongoing in the Netherlands (click here), a Western European nation. Many of those Jews omitted from Europe since 1933 departed Europe by murder, as the following chart illustrates.

36 Questions About the Holocaust

How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?

Belgium 28,900 -- 44.0%
Latvia 71,500 -- 78.1%
Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 -- 66.1%
Lithuania 143,000 -- 85.1%
Netherlands 100,000 -- 71.4%
Poland 3,000,000 -- 90.9%
France 77,320 -- 22.1%
Romania 287,000 -- 47.1%
Germany 141,500 -- 25.0%
Slovakia 71,000 -- 79.8%
Greece 67,000 -- 86.6%
Hungary 569,000 -- 69.0%
Yugoslavia 63,300 -- 81.2%

(Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394663#5

by tlttf Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:28 am

Tha'ts better roc, at last you've shown it all happened at the time of the Nazis in Countries that were conquered by the same. The holocaust was was a terrible time in history and should be remembered though not obsessed about. It isn't happening now and my European "brothers" were themselves victims at the time: note; Britain isn't on your list brother!

by ROB Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:22 am

tlttf wrote:
… my European "brothers" were themselves victims at the time…

Your Jewish European brothers were the victims. Prior to 1933, the majority of Jews on the planet were European Jews, evicted from their homelands, Israel/Judah, called Galilee and Judea by the 1st Century AD, by Europeans commanded from a city located on the Italian peninsula, that, being denied re-access to these homelands by those same European masters, ultimately settled throughout Europe, where your Jewish European brothers survived relatively intact in spite of periodic persecution, including inquisitions, to which they were subjected solely because they were Jews.

Beginning in 1933, your Jewish European brothers became targets of a new sort of persecution, eventually called the “Final Solution”, as if your Jewish European brothers were a “problem”, perpetrated upon them by your non-Jewish European brothers, which resulted in two out of three European Jews in existence in 1933 being wiped off of the face of the earth by 1950.

According to former European Union Commissioner Frits Bolkenstein (click here), the de-Jewification of Europe continues today in the Netherlands, aided by ant-Jew content being aired by Arab television outlets.

by witchfinder Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:32 am

Whatever we class ourselves as, at the end of the day we are all simply humans and have human insticts, human feelings and characteristics, and this is the same regardless of faith or creed.

Any decent and right thinking person would naturaly sympathize with the Jews and their history of persecution and torment, but why feel sympathy for one particular group of people but not another. ?

Are Palestinians somehow inferior, or are the Palestinians not deserving of sympathy for been stateless or for living in abject poverty without many of the basics that we regard as essential.

A fair deal for the Israelis, and a fair deal for the Palestinians

The middle east at the present time is rather like a chess board, everyone is wondering who is going to make the next move, and what would be the consequences of certain moves.

If Israel does attack Iran, would Iran retaliate, how many different terror groups in how many different countries would launch and plan attacks on Israel or on Israeli targets, how many people would be killed or injured.

Would it not be simpler and much more easy for Israel to say out loud "we can create a free Palestine providing we can all settle down and live side by side in peace".

The Israel - Palestinian question gets complicated once history is brought into play, but this isent 300 BC or the dark ages, this is NOW, the bottom line realy is either two states or more misery and death and possibly war.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:22 pm

Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?

How did that turn into yet another debate on religion?

Were the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki directed specifically at Shinto?

by ROB Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:33 pm

witchfinder wrote:
Any decent and right thinking person would naturaly sympathize with the Jews and their history of persecution and torment, but…

The underlined word minimizes or negates the statement preceding it. That’s the nature of “but” when used as it is used in the excerpt above.

In my words and actions, including my words hereon and my political actions, I cannot and shall not allow myself to minimize or negate my unwavering and abiding support for the absolute right of Israeli Jews, and the absolute duty of the Israeli government and its agencies, including the Israeli Defence Force and Mossad, to secure the internal and external security of the State of Israel and protect and defend Israeli Jews by any means necessary. Given the track record of Europeans in protecting and defending European Jews, I cannot and shall not model my words and actions after their example.

I am an American; I am a Texan. I shall model my words and actions regarding the security of Israel and the lives and well-being of Israeli Jews after a different model.

witchfinder wrote:

A fair deal for the Israelis, and a fair deal for the Palestinians

A Fair deal for Palestinian Arabs must include a unilateral and unconditional disavowal of Palestinian Arabs’ stated goals of Israel’s annihilation and Palestinian Jews’ extermination, expressed from 1948 until now by their war of extermination against Israeli Jews, and clearly articulated by the despicable supreme head of Iran in the following text.

Simon Wiesenthal Center: Iranian Calls to Destroy Jewish People Unparalleled Since Nazi Germany
Urge World Powers To Seek Indictment for Incitement to Genocide - A Crime Against Humanity
February 6, 2012

.. the Iranian website Alef has posted a long, detailed plan to wipe out Israel’s infrastructure, annihilate the Jewish State and murder Jews worldwide: http://www.alef.ir/vdcepw8zwjh8ewi.b9bj.html?142262

… Ayatollah Ali Khamenei… called Israel "a cancerous tumor" that had to be removed. Now Iranian analyst Alireza Forghani writing on the Alef website (and posted on the official FARS news agency) details a plan for Iran to remove “this corrupting material” to kill all the Jews and annihilate Israel.

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=11622141

When Palestinian Arabs unilaterally and unconditionally disavow their stated and actualized commitment to annihilate Israel and exterminate Israeli Jews, a step that they should have taken in 1948, then good faith peace negotiations between Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews can commence.

by tlttf Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:27 pm

Where's the Iran debate gone and when did the European bashing start?

by ROB Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:25 pm

tlttf wrote:
Where's the Iran debate gone… ?

To Iran. I personally solicit your comments upon Iran’s Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s public statements and Iranian analyst Alireza Forghani’s detailed “how to” manual.

Simon Wiesenthal Center: Iranian Calls to Destroy Jewish People Unparalleled Since Nazi Germany
Urge World Powers To Seek Indictment for Incitement to Genocide - A Crime Against Humanity
February 6, 2012

.. the Iranian website Alef has posted a long, detailed plan to wipe out Israel’s infrastructure, annihilate the Jewish State and murder Jews worldwide: http://www.alef.ir/vdcepw8zwjh8ewi.b9bj.html?142262

… Ayatollah Ali Khamenei… called Israel "a cancerous tumor" that had to be removed. Now Iranian analyst Alireza Forghani writing on the Alef website (and posted on the official FARS news agency) details a plan for Iran to remove “this corrupting material” to kill all the Jews and annihilate Israel.

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=11622141

tlttf wrote:
… when did the European bashing start?

It didn’t. Stating documented facts on a public forum accompanied by documentation thereof is not “bashing”; it’s stating documented facts on a public forum accompanied by documentation thereof.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:56 pm

Should we feel grateful that Muslim-bashing seems to have given way to Europe-bashing?

by ROB Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:12 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Should we feel grateful that Muslim-bashing seems to have given way to Europe-bashing?

Should you feel ashamed for asserting as facts the erroneous presumptions that “Muslim-bashing” and “European-bashing” have occurred on the threads you implicitly reference, when in fact “Muslim-bashing” and “European-bashing” have not occurred on the threads you implicitly reference?

by oftenwrong Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:07 am

Somebody's computer seems to be storing different messages to the ones we read on this thread.

New readers start here:
The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed partition and claimed all of Palestine.[36] The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).[7]

A few weeks after UNSCOP released its report, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, was quoted by an Egyptian newspaper as predicting that Palestine would be overrun by Muslim volunteers.[37] According to the reporter, he said "Personally I hope the Jews do not force us into this war because it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades."[37]

Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".[39] On 20 May 1948, Azzam told reporters "We are fighting for an Arab Palestine"[40]…

by ROB Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:25 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Somebody's computer seems to be storing different messages to the ones we read on this thread.

“Someone” perhaps speaks above of someone’s own electronic device.

oftenwrong wrote:
New readers start here:
The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed partition and claimed all of Palestine.[36] The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).[7]

A few weeks after UNSCOP released its report, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, was quoted by an Egyptian newspaper as predicting that Palestine would be overrun by Muslim volunteers.[37] According to the reporter, he said "Personally I hope the Jews do not force us into this war because it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades."[37]

Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".[39] On 20 May 1948, Azzam told reporters "We are fighting for an Arab Palestine"[40]…

RockOnBroher’s post of Saturday 29 September 2012 at 23:42, from which the preceding excerpt, detailing Israeli/Palestinian Jew-bashing (attempted genocidal extermination) by Arab genocidal bullies in 1948, was copied.

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Should Iran be prevented from having nuclear weapons?
by RockOnBrother on Sat 29 Sep 2012 - 23:42 (click here)
United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Jewish reaction

Jews in Palestine and around the world reacted to the UN resolution with jubilation. The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, praised and accepted the resolution while expressing dissatisfaction with some of the details.^[28] Mainstream Zionist leaders emphasized the "heavy responsibility" of building a modern Jewish State, and committed to working towards a peaceful coexistence with the region's other inhabitants:^[29][30][31]

It is now our primary task to establish relations of peace and harmony with our Arab neighbors – Chaim Weizmann

[Menachem] Begin warned that the partition would not bring peace because the Arabs would also attack the small state and that "in the war ahead we'll have to stand on our own, it will be a war on our existence and future".^[32]

Arab reaction

The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed partition and claimed all of Palestine.^[36] The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).^[7]

A few weeks after UNSCOP released its report, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, was quoted by an Egyptian newspaper as predicting that Palestine would be overrun by Muslim volunteers.^[37] According to the reporter, he said "Personally I hope the Jews do not force us into this war because it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades."^[37]

Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".^[39] On 20 May 1948, Azzam told reporters "We are fighting for an Arab Palestine"^[40]…

References

2. Part II. – Boundaries recommended in UNGA Res 181 Molinaro, Enrico The Holy Places of Jerusalem in Middle East Peace Agreements Page 78
7. Report of UNSCOP – 1947
28. [2]
29. "PALESTINE JEWRY JOYOUS AT NEWS; Ben-Gurion Voices Attitude of Grateful Responsibility – Jerusalem Arabs Silent". New York Times: pp. 58. 30 November 1947. Retrieved 9 January 2012.
30. "VOTE ON PALESTINE CHEERED BY CROWD". New York Times. 30 November 1947. Retrieved 9 January 2012.
31. "JEWISH UNITS HERE HAIL ACTION BY U.N.". New York Times. 30 November 1947. Retrieved 9 January 2012.
32. Begin, Menachem, The Revolt 1978, p. 412.
36. The Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs (PASSIA)
37. Akhbar el-Yom, 11 October 2011, p9. The literal English translation is somewhat ambiguous, however the overall meaning is that the coming Arab defeat of the Jews will be remembered in the same way as the past Arab defeats of the Mongols and Crusaders are remembered.
39. Benny Morris, 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War, Yale University Press, 2008
40. Palestine Post, 21 May 1948, p. 3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#Jewish_reaction

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by witchfinder Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:54 am

Read this fact here : In 1948 when independence was declared by Israel, there were more Palestinians in Israel than there were Jews.

Now would anyone like to explain what the word "democracy" actualy means ?

I always thought that the basic principle of democracy was one man-one vote, and all people have the right to exercise that right regardless, which in any right thinking persons mind, must make the founding of Israel completely illegitimate.

What happened in Palestine in 1948 would be similar to native Americans or Afro-Americans taking over the United States and making white Americans second class citizens.

The difference of course is that the Jews have an historical claim on lands in the middle east going back 2000 years, it is where Jews originate from many many moons ago.

Well been that I am a proud Yorkshireman from the east coast, I might just get a group of other people with Viking ancestors and go and claim some land in Denmark or Norway, I wonder if the present residents of Scandanavia might be upset. ?

by ROB Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:44 pm

witchfinder wrote:
Read this fact here : In 1948 when independence was declared by Israel, there were more Palestinians in Israel than there were Jews.

Read the f acts:

Palestinian Jews were Palestinians. The ancestors of Palestinian Jews arrived in Israel/Judea about three thousand eight hundred years ago, when Abram/Abraham and Lot arrived. Abraham’s grandson, Jacob/Israel, his sons, and their families, fled to Egypt to escape famine; four hundred years later, their descendants, and the “strangers” that dwelt among them, departed Egypt, arriving back in Israel/Judah-Judea forty years later. Since that time, Jews have lived continuously in Israel/Judah-Judea.

During the 1st century AD, serious persecution of Jews by Europeans began. Jews were expelled from their homeland, Jews were eliminated at Masada, and Jews were hunted down and killed throughout Israel/Judah-Judea by Europeans and their allies/mercenaries ultimately commanded from a European city on the Italian peninsula. During the ensuing nineteen hundred years, forcibly exiled Jews, Jews of the Diaspora, attempted to settle peacefully amongst their European human brethren, only to be subjected by their European human brothers to repeated persecutions, pogroms, being forced to live in ghettos, inquisitions, other violence, and ultimately, from 1933-1945, mass genocide on a near unfathomable scale. Of the nine million Jews of the Diaspora in 1933 Europe, descendants of Jews killed and kicked out of Israel/Judah-Judea one thousand nine hundred years ago, two thirds, six million, were exterminated by 1945.

As a direct result of experiencing unspeakable horror in Europe at the hands of their European human brethren, surviving Jews, a bare remnant of the thriving pre-1933 Jewish communities throughout Europe, which in themselves were testaments to the character of a people that thrived in spite of their Europeans human brethren’s repeated persecutions, emigrated from Israel in an virtually forced migration, a modern day Exodus, to seek shelter and safety among the Jewish remnant that managed to remain in Israel/Judah-Judea during the 1st Century European ravaging of their homeland. This Jewish remnant, now called Palestinian Jews, or simply Palestinians, to a large degree assimilated unto themselves their returning fellow genetic and cultural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel.

A minority in their own land, these Palestinian Jews holding direct historic claims to the land from which most were expelled in the 1s Century AD by European conquerors, agreed to the United Nations partition of Palestine while beginning to accept into their midst the first of eight hundred fifty thousand Jews forcibly expelled from Arab countries and other Muslim-culture North African and Asian countries solely because they were Jews. In fact, Arab fascists, particularly those of the Baath Party, Baathists like Saddam the beast Hussein, worship Adolf Hitler and have embraced Nazi hatred of Jews.

Even Iran (the primary subject of this thread), neither Arab nor Sunni, has taken up this vile heritage, hosting a 21st Century symposium in which “scholars” told lies to one another denying the historicity of the Holocaust. Most recently, Iran’s supreme ayatollah, that Looney Tunes prime minister’s bossman, called for the annihilation of Israel and the extermination of Jews.

Quiet as is kept, one reason US targets were chosen for the 11 September 2001 massacres is because al qaida expected to exterminate large numbers of Jews that morning, a reasonable expectation given the fact that, after the modern Jewish Exodus from the Europe of their Holocaust, nearly six million Jews call America, my America, home. And damnit, as long as I draw cognizant breath, my Jewish American brothers will continue to have my unwavering support for and participation in their unwavering support for their Israeli/Palestinian Jewish brothers and for the internal and external security of Israel by any means necessary.

witchfinder wrote:
What happened in Palestine in 1948 would be similar to native Americans or Afro-Americans taking over the United States and making white Americans second class citizens.

I am a mongrel.

I am West African; thus, I am a Black American, a Black Texan, and a Black man.

I am some kind of Irish; thus, some of my ancestors suffered prosecution on their own Emerald isle at the hands of English land barons and assorted English aristocracy that, among other atrocities, filled their larders whilst Irishmen starved to death during the mid-19th Century potato famine.

I am some kind of Scot, likely distant kin to border reavers who recouped a bit of Scot pride by raising their own cattle while eating English cattle.

I am Cherokee, a people whose claim to American land stretches back perhaps ten thousand years, a people forcibly expelled from their historic homeland, an event reminiscent of what Jews experienced when they were forcibly expelled from their historic homeland in the 1st century AD, by one Andrew Jackson, President of the United States, Commander-in-Chief of the US Army which carried out his immoral order, and a descendant of European colonizers of the United States.

This is my country. What happened to Israeli/Palestinian Jews in 1948 is in no way similar to the ridiculous scenario you’ve concocted in which you presume that Black Americans, Cherokee Americans, Irish Americans, and SDcots Americans, are not Americans. Here’s the deal: Quiet as is kept, except for white supremacists, we in 21st century America do not place designate Americans as owners the United States and relegate Black Americans, Cherokee Americans, Irish Americans, and Scots Americans to mere tenant status in the land that they own as English aristocrats did to Irish Irishmen in Ireland and Scottish Scots in Scotland.

This song’s for you.

This Is My Country – Curtis Mayfield & The Impressions
https://www.youtube.com/v/NlF2GzfU7DE

by witchfinder Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:51 pm

Yes RockOnBrother I did allready know that you are a black Texan / American

a black person from the southern half of the United States realy ought to understand and sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians and how they are treated by the Isreallis.

The Israeli / Palestinian problem is at the heart of all the problems which have come from the middle east, its the root cause of all the terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists, if we could solve the Isreali / Palestinian problem, we would sow the seeds for a better and safer world.

by ROB Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:11 am

witchfinder wrote:
Yes RockOnBrother I did allready know that you are a black Texan / American

My convention is to honor the honorable by capitalizing terms of ethnic identification; thus, when referring to honorable folks, to me it’s Black Texan/Black American. Some of my friends are White Texans/White Americans. One valued friend is a White South Carolinian.

Due to mongrelization, I am also, genetically and vaguely ethnically, an Irish Texan/Irish American, genetically a Scot American/Scot Texan, genetically a Cherokee American/Cherokee Texan, and the Lord only knows what else. Notice that all ethnic identifications are capitalized.

Now those hooded clowns are white non-Americans that, by accident of birth, are allowed to partake of the liberties that they do not deserve. The New Black Panthers and Calypso Louis are likewise black non-Americans.

Please know that the original Black Panther Party for Self Defense included several Black Americans, including a Black Texan, Bobby Seale, with whom I disagree on many points but respect more than I can articulate. And another Bobby, Robert Francis Kennedy, was an Irish American/White American whose assassination forty-four plus years ago profoundly diminished my country.

witchfinder wrote:
… a black person from the southern half of the United States realy ought to understand and sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians and how they are treated by the Isreallis.

The Israeli / Palestinian problem is at the heart of all the problems which have come from the middle east, its the root cause of all the terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists, if we could solve the Isreali / Palestinian problem, we would sow the seeds for a better and safer world.

Perhaps the fact that I am a Black Texan fuels my empathy for a people persecuted beyond comprehension for nearly two thousand years of exile, not of their own choosing, from their historic homeland, Israel/Judah-Judea.

I find it extremely disrespectful to decent humans to attribute bestial exterminations committed by al qaida, the taliban, hezbollah, hamas, islamic jihad, and the like to anyone other than al qaida, the taliban, hezbollah, hamas, islamic jihad, and the like.

by witchfinder Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:37 am

RockOnBrother

You should offer to write your countrys foreign policy if the Republicans win the election.

Nothing ever changes

by methought Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:22 pm

36 Questions About the Holocaust

How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?

Belgium 28,900 -- 44.0%
Latvia 71,500 -- 78.1%
Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 -- 66.1%
Lithuania 143,000 -- 85.1%
Netherlands 100,000 -- 71.4%
Poland 3,000,000 -- 90.9%
France 77,320 -- 22.1%
Romania 287,000 -- 47.1%
Germany 141,500 -- 25.0%
Slovakia 71,000 -- 79.8%
Greece 67,000 -- 86.6%
Hungary 569,000 -- 69.0%
Yugoslavia 63,300 -- 81.2%

(Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394663#5

Thanks for the figures RoB

Do you also have the figures for Muslims killed by Jews, or by Europeans and Americans?

They may not be so easy to come by, but perhaps we can start with a conservative estimate of 650,000 Iraqi civilians in retaliation for the terrorist atrocities carried out by half a dozen Saudi and Egyptian terrorists on the World Trade Centre. It is said that more than a million Iraqis actually died but coalition forces concede that 650,000 is the known figure of identified civilian casualties.

Likewise we know that the Taliban is against human rights and is an abominable political philosophy but how many Afghani people have died since our forces have occupied Afghanistan, allegedly in pursuit of a single Saudi who was recently assassinated in Pakhistan?

Suicide bombing is an atrocity, and is a weapon of last resort. Priming children to carry out such acts is also an abomination, but how is it to be stopped?

Iran has stated categorically that it will not fire the first shot. That puts the onus on Israel to do nothing when it would prefer Iran not to have nuclear capability. Iran however has a lot of oil. This could have the potential of changing the balance of trade if Iran was not blockaded from trading with the West.

by ROB Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:10 pm

methought wrote:
36 Questions About the Holocaust

How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?

Belgium 28,900 -- 44.0%
Latvia 71,500 -- 78.1%
Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 -- 66.1%
Lithuania 143,000 -- 85.1%
Netherlands 100,000 -- 71.4%
Poland 3,000,000 -- 90.9%
France 77,320 -- 22.1%
Romania 287,000 -- 47.1%
Germany 141,500 -- 25.0%
Slovakia 71,000 -- 79.8%
Greece 67,000 -- 86.6%
Hungary 569,000 -- 69.0%
Yugoslavia 63,300 -- 81.2%

(Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394663#5
Thanks for the figures RoB

Do you also have the figures for Muslims killed by Jews, or by Europeans and Americans?

I have the figure for Jews killed by Europeans in Poland.

methought wrote:
Iran has stated categorically that it will not fire the first shot. That puts the onus on Israel to do nothing when it would prefer Iran not to have nuclear capability. Iran however has a lot of oil. This could have the potential of changing the balance of trade if Iran was not blockaded from trading with the West.

Iran’s supreme leader has stated the following.

Simon Wiesenthal Center: Iranian Calls to Destroy Jewish People Unparalleled Since Nazi Germany
Urge World Powers To Seek Indictment for Incitement to Genocide - A Crime Against Humanity
February 6, 2012

.. the Iranian website Alef has posted a long, detailed plan to wipe out Israel’s infrastructure, annihilate the Jewish State and murder Jews worldwide: http://www.alef.ir/vdcepw8zwjh8ewi.b9bj.html?142262

… Ayatollah Ali Khamenei… called Israel "a cancerous tumor" that had to be removed. Now Iranian analyst Alireza Forghani writing on the Alef website (and posted on the official FARS news agency) details a plan for Iran to remove “this corrupting material” to kill all the Jews and annihilate Israel.

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=11622141

Note Iran’s creation and Internet publication of a “how to exterminate Jews” manual.

by ROB Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:11 pm

witchfinder wrote:
RockOnBrother

You should offer to write your countrys foreign policy if the Republicans win the election.

Nothing ever changes

1. As the Republican Party’s nominee is a Temple Mormon, that which you posit lets me know that your understanding of who I am is significantly incomplete.

2. Unconditional support for Israel’s absolute right and duty to ensure Israeli Jews’ safety and lives by any means necessary is neither a Republican nor a Democratic prerogative; it’s the unwavering stand of my country, the United States of America, founded upon the quaint notion that every human possesses unalienable human rights to life and liberty, including Jews who live in Israel.

You want peace in the Middle East? So do I. Here’s how to achieve it “the next Wednesday.”

Prager University: The Middle East Problem (4:43 - 4:51)
https://www.youtube.com/v/63hTOaRu7h4

by methought Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:15 pm

the United States of America, founded upon the quaint notion that every human possesses unalienable human rights to life and liberty,

Hmmm methinks some people are more equal than others here. What of the corralled Palestinians who still hold property deeds to land and houses in Israel? They cannot even travel abroad because they lost the war due to overwhelming odds, and they have not even had passports since.

Very quaint.

But still we have to make our value judgements based on loyalty rather than morality, isn't that so, Mr Cameron?

by oftenwrong Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:15 pm

3 million illegal settlers like this discussion.

by ROB Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:43 pm

methought wrote:
the United States of America, founded upon the quaint notion that every human possesses unalienable human rights to life and liberty,
Hmmm methinks some people are more equal than others here.

“methinks” erroneously.

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…

Perhaps my understanding of that which “methinks” erroneously stems from having learned and owned these words as a child.

methought wrote:
What of the corralled Palestinians who still hold property deeds to land and houses in Israel?

They can have peace “the next Wednesday.”

Prager University: The Middle East Problem (4:43 - 4:51)
https://www.youtube.com/v/63hTOaRu7h4

methought wrote:
They cannot even travel abroad because they lost the war due to overwhelming odds…

Gamal Abdel Nasser and his evil coven of dedicated would-be Israel annihilators and would-be Israeli Jews exterminators throughout Egypt, Syria, and Jordan (current aggregate population one hundred twenty-eight million seven hundred fifty thousand) ought to have considered that in 1967 prior to amassing overwhelming military forces round about tiny Israel (current Israeli Jewish population five million seven hundred thousand) in preparation to annihilate Israel and exterminate Israeli Jews.

The math is simple. Divide the Egypt-Syria-Jordan aggregate population, 128,750,000, by the Israeli Jew population, 5,700,000, and determine the odds against Israel, 22.6 to 1.

Overwhelming odds? You are absolutely correct. Israeli Jews, since 1948, have faced and overcome overwhelming odds as encompassing Arab bullies seek their utter and complete destruction.

methought wrote:
… and they have not even had passports since.

Gamal Abdel Nasser has lots for which to answer, doesn’t he?

methought wrote:
But still we have to make our value judgements based on loyalty rather than morality…

I am an American. I am a Texan. Morality dictates my “value judgments”, which dictate nonnegotiable support for the absolute right of Israel to internal and external security by any means necessary.

methought wrote:
… isn't that so, Mr Cameron?

We the People of the United Kingdom elected the standing Parliament which formed the coalition government of which Cameron is the prime minister. Y’all elected him; y’all own the problems.

by **astradt1** Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:03 am

We the People of the United Kingdom

So you voted for Cameron in a British Election?

Or are you just trying to use the US Constitution phrase as some sort of link to try and say that Britain and the USA are the same.........

How often have Brits on this or any other Forum used the words 'We the people'????

by witchfinder Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:15 pm

The question is this >

According to latest information available, the most technologicly advanced missiles available to Iran cannot reach Europe let alone the United States.
If Iran is indeed developing a nuclear weapons programme, and if Iran suceeds in creating a weapon capable of been launched and carried my missile, then its neighbours including Israel are within striking distance.

If the United States has a particular problem with Iran having the capability or ability to be able to strike Israel with weapons of mass destruction, then let the United States deal with it.

For me personaly, and in the opinion of many Europeans, it aint our problem.
If Israel has the capability to launch weapons of mass destruction on Iran (which of course it does) - then why should Israel expect any of the European powers to get involved in a conflict caused entirely upon the fact that Iran now has the same capability.

Our Primeminister has said that military action against Iran cannot be ruled out, yet Iran poses no threat to either the UK or Europe, there is no future prospect of Iran been able to pose any threat to the UK.

Why should we even consider spilling the blood of British men and women in a conflict that in essence is a stand-off between Israel and Iran. ?

Such a future conflict will not carry British public backing, most Britons do not see ourselves as been Israels natural ally or military sponsor.

by ROB Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:15 pm

Finally a European gets to the core issues/points.

witchfinder wrote:
According to latest information available, the most technologicly advanced missiles available to Iran cannot reach Europe…

First core point: If it can’t reach Europe, it’s not Europeans’ problem.

Fallacy: Technologically-advanced delivery systems are unnecessary in asymmetrical warfare. I’m unsure of either the three dimensional measurements or weights of modern nuclear devices, and in what size carriage apparatuses they might fit. I do know that an assumption that lack of technologically-advanced delivery systems equates to inability to deliver weaponry on target is a dangerous assumption, particularly to a Europe that is in fact not a separate continent, but the western portion of the huge land mass properly called Eurasia. An examination of the map between Iran and Europe reveals a continuous land passage between Iran and even the westernmost of Western European continental nations. With the Chunnel providing regular rail access between France and the UK, even y’all’s island home is land-travel accessible.

witchfinder wrote:
… let alone the United States.

“Rule Britannia” and its unrivaled blue water navy, the Royal Navy, de facto Big brother to today’s United States Navy, taught America USV well. Since getting our backsides handed to us in a hand basket mailed Special Delivery on 7 December 1941, our heads have been out of the sand and our mindset towards national defense has been global. We don’t intentionally wait for danger to approach our shores and borders to deal with it.

11 September 2001 was an exception, perhaps due to the “Clinton-euphoria” that caused us to forget as a nation the principle of “ever vigilant.” For instance, our intelligence and spec ops folks had opportunities to take out Osama Who Swims with Fishes in the late 90s, but were compelled to pass when they were unable to get a “green light” from the top. I hope the lesson remains at the forefront of our national consciousness. Iran should not be dismissed as was Osama fourteen years ago.

witchfinder wrote:
If Iran is indeed developing a nuclear weapons programme, and if Iran suceeds in creating a weapon capable of been launched and carried my missile, then its neighbours including Israel are within striking distance.

If the United States has a particular problem with Iran having the capability or ability to be able to strike Israel with weapons of mass destruction, then let the United States deal with it.

We will, if Barack Hussein “Michael Corleone” Obama gets four more years.

witchfinder wrote:
For me personaly, and in the opinion of many Europeans, it aint our problem.

Second core point: If it’s not Europeans’ problem, Europeans don’t care.

It wasn’t y’all’s problem in the late 1930s, either, when Neville “Peace in Our Time” Chamberlain and his trusted colleague Adolf Hitler almost became co-recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize. Subsequent history taught that “Ostrich-ism” didn’t work very well. Some people learned the lesson.

Of interest to me is one parallel between Nazi Germany and Iran. Adolf and his coven of evil didn’t much like Jews either.

witchfinder wrote:
If Israel has the capability to launch weapons of mass destruction on Iran (which of course it does) - then why should Israel expect any of the European powers to get involved in a conflict caused entirely upon the fact that Iran now has the same capability.

So how have you missed knowing of Iran’s coven of evil’s avowed goal of annihilating Israel and exterminating Jews worldwide? And last time I checked, Israel’s leaders had not vowed to annihilate Iran and exterminate Iranians worldwide.

Insofar as European powers’ involvement, I suspect Israeli Jews have had quite enough European involvement in their survival. Reliance upon European powers to secure Jews lives costs the lives of two-thirds of the Jews alive in 1933 Europe. “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

witchfinder wrote:
Why should we even consider spilling the blood of British men and women in a conflict that in essence

Because guaranteeing the survival of a people threatened with worldwide extermination is the right thing to do. It’s kinda sorta moral to oppose genocide.

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