I am a pro-European, but..?

by Ivanhoe Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

When Tony Blair held Presidency of the EU in 2005, he secured three opt-out vetos for Britain, these were and are called red lines.

Tony Blair secured our opt out that the British would not pay Europe's higher income tax rates.

He secured that UK pensioners would not receive the EU's much higher State pension rates.

And Mr Blair secured that the British people would not receive the EU's much higher and non means tested welfare State payments.

It is a fact that Britain is a "low income tax" nation, hence increases in local council tax and all the stealth taxes like increases in petrol, which are crippling the rest of us while the rich are not effected. But these stealth taxes combined with income tax, make Britain a high tax nation, which our politicians refuse to admit.

It is a fact that our pensioners receive the lowest State pension in Europe.

It is a fact that the British unemployed receive the lowest means tested welfare payments compared to our European counterparts.

Naturally none of these points are ever discussed in the media.

Thatcher, Blair, Brown, and now Cameron and Clegg, are the most evil people ever to run Britain.

And you can be sure of one thing, that whatever little games David Cameron plays regarding whatever power he has in Europe, which in my view is none, nothing he will achieve will help the poorest people in this country, because we do not have the Euro, neither do we share in Europe's social and economical standards which are enshrined in the European Social Charter

So, what has Britain got to lose by coming out of Europe ?
.

.

by oftenwrong Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:52 pm

"Sabotage" is not a word from English, but amply demonstrates our attitude to imposed foreign interference.

by Stox 16 Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:50 am

oftenwrong wrote:If you think things are bad, just wait until the UKIP tendency take us out of Europe altogether.

Those too young to remember Post-War Austerity will have another chance to see it.

(Who has kept their Ration Book as a souvenir?)

Well... what do we have to lose? Well.. some would have us believe not very much at all? Rolling Eyes

but i do not share this view at all. as 65% of our exports go to the EU with about 3 million UK jobs on the line. So what they are asking us to do? are they saying we shopuld leave 65% of our main economy and income or at least weaken our economic links to join what? confused

To trade with WTO? confused

which we can do now. The question is this? we know what we have inside the EU. but does anyone really know how we would fair outside it? if you ask me, some people would be happy to take this Gamble with the economy. but will they be just as keen to take the blame if they are wrong? I think not. So unless anyone can come up with anything better. I will always vote to stay in the EU.

by blueturando Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:21 pm

Stox 16...........Can you please tell me what is the point of the EU? We could and did have trade under the common market system, so take that out and what is the point?

by Guest Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:40 pm

blueturando wrote:
... what is the point of the EU?

Gradual erosion and eventual elimination of British sovereignty. Germany and its ally, neo-Vichy France, win the victory over the UK denied them 15 September 1940.

by blueturando Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:07 am

Agreed Rock...That is the ultimate aim for sure, but if we say anything like that here we get called 'little Englanders' for wanting to protect our own sovereignty. It's similar when people mention immigration....speak against it and youre racist. A good way to try and silence the peasants hey.
At the least in the US its not frowned upon to be proud of your nation and heritage, I envy you for that.

by Guest Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:08 am

blueturando wrote:
It's similar when people mention immigration....speak against it and youre racist.

There’s a difference between racism and political culture-ism. We have a leg up on y’all because our nation is founded upon an idea rather than a tribe or tribes.

As an American USV (United States Variety), I have an ethical and moral responsibility and obligation to require that immigrants embrace and inculcate within themselves the idea that is America, encapsulated within the Pledge of Allegiance, particularly the “liberty and justice for all” part, within which our Constitution (the supreme law of all fifty-one sovereign governments), state constitutions, and laws are rooted. Nothing racist about it; I myself am a mongrel, a “sooner”, as in “I’d just a soon be this as that.”

blueturando wrote:
At the least in the US its not frowned upon to be proud of your nation and heritage, I envy you for that.

Ironically, my pride in America USV spills over into pride in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. I don’t like it when any of these nations’ sovereignty is threatened from within or without. Perhaps that’s an application of the old axiom, “dance with who brung yuh.”

The world into which I was born was made safe for democracy prior to my birth by the sacrifices of British, American, Canadian, Australian, and New Zealander soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, commandos, and the boundless numbers of civilians that worked in the fields and factories to defeat Nazism, Fascism, an Japanese totalitarianism. Meanwhile, American, British, and possibly Canadian and Anzac troops took fire and suffered casualties from French troops and ships in North Africa.

by witchfinder Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:07 pm

Some posters keep on harking on that "we buy more from them, than they do from us", as though coming out of the EU realy would not matter, but what exactly is amongst all those goods which we import from the continent.
Well for a start off theres news-print, which we buy in vast quantities because we cannot produce enough of our own.

A large proportion of what we import are goods that we cannot produce ourselves due to our climate or because we simply do not have the natural rescources as in copper for example, and also because under the Thatcher years a large proportion of our manufacturing disappeared, a big percentage of what "They" sell to "Us" is stuff we either couldent do without, or would not like to do without - have you ever tried British wine. ?

Make no mistake, if Britain was suddenly on the outside looking in, the boss would be Europe, they would have the upper hand and they would dictate the terms and conditions of whatever new trade agreements we attempted to negotiate.

IF we were lucky, we MIGHT get a similar deal to Switzerland

by blueturando Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:26 pm

Witchy...I can just see these countries with already fragile economies saying....No, we won't sell millions of euros worth of our products to the UK, because they used their veto...We can afford to lose the business!

I don't think that would happen do you?

by **Ivan** Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:09 pm

they used their veto

Really? What has Cameron actually vetoed (i.e. stopped)??
Sad

I see the opinion polls are returning to normal, now that people are waking up and realising that our vacuous PM achieved nothing in Brussels.

by witchfinder Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:13 pm

blue - If we left the EU it would not mean we escape European rules, both Iceland and Norway as just about the only none EU nations in western Europe abide by, and adopt virtualy all EU rules and regulations because they have to.

I realy do not see the point in leaving the EU if we will not escape all the rules, directives and regulations, we may as well stay on the inside where we influence those rules, and where we have a say and a vote.

Both Norway and Iceland have no say on EU law making, yet they have no choice other than to accept those laws in order to continue trading with the rest of Europe.

As for "fragile economies" it depends which member state you to which you refer, Greece is in a much worse situation than we are, Germany is in a much stronger situation than us.

Our economy is not exactly booming is it

by Ivanhoe Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:34 pm

witchfinder wrote:blue - If we left the EU it would not mean we escape European rules, both Iceland and Norway as just about the only none EU nations in western Europe abide by, and adopt virtualy all EU rules and regulations because they have to.

I realy do not see the point in leaving the EU if we will not escape all the rules, directives and regulations, we may as well stay on the inside where we influence those rules, and where we have a say and a vote.

Both Norway and Iceland have no say on EU law making, yet they have no choice other than to accept those laws in order to continue trading with the rest of Europe.

As for "fragile economies" it depends which member state you to which you refer, Greece is in a much worse situation than we are, Germany is in a much stronger situation than us.

Our economy is not exactly booming is it

Hi witchfinder, please tell me exactly what EU directives we follow ?

by astra Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:23 pm

Hi witchfinder, please tell me exactly what EU directives we follow ?

Starters.

Elf & Safety protocalls, which are followed to the last dot in this country, and applied with a big hammer.

clean beach protocalls - UK measures at incoming tide near high water, and the frogs read the water at low tide. They are not s'posed to measure it this way, everyone knows that they do this, but is anything done? NAH Hey it's the frogs, don't upset the applecart!

by oftenwrong Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:15 pm

EU Directives? Those stupid "low-energy" bulbs which will eventually render everyone blind, but make fat profits for a certain Dutch company.

by Ivanhoe Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:49 pm

Is that all ?

by oftenwrong Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:31 pm

How many eyes have you got?

by Stox 16 Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:23 am

blueturando wrote:Stox 16...........Can you please tell me what is the point of the EU? We could and did have trade under the common market system, so take that out and what is the point?

it started out as a trade block for mostly companies. but a better question is what are you really against? is it the fact that many inside Europe wished it to be a bit more than some sort of companies trading club? or is it that people within Europe wish it too also have a social side too it as well? but lets be quite clear about all of this issue. We hear a great deal from the Eurosceptics about all the things they dislike and how much it costs to be a member. but when the question is put too them about leaving the EU we find they are in fact in two camps and cannot even agree, as we have, (1) half wish to stay in as a trading business club for the well being of the very few at the top of companies with workers being told they should just be happy to have a job out of it. With (2) the other half of the Eurosceptics wishing too withdraw from the whole thing.

So what we have is the Anti EU group who cannot even agree what it is they wish too see in the first place. but are more then happy to shout out that the majority wish to leave the EU. But what bit do they wish too leave, is it (1) or is it (2)? as we never see this in the Eurosceptic propaganda polls at all? As the Eurosceptics just point to the total of people who wish to leave the EU. as if this happens to be some harmonious group with one uniformed view point. when its very clear this is just not the case at all. is it?

Then comes this very odd economic argument that we could somehow start trading with other groups and be like Norway or Switzerland. yet the Euroscepics become very vague on how much of the UK GDP they would need to replace due to us either being outside the trading club or as the other half wish out all together? nor do they ever state why we cannot stay inside the EU while increasing our world wide trade with the outside markets now? why would it be best to leave to do this?

So what we have is an economic gamble being put forward as some sort of economic policy. Now what has never been put over to the UK people is how much of an economic gamble this all is? Do you really believe with the UK economy in such a state after just two years with all the talk of 10 more years of this. that the majority would somehow wish to take on a whole new economic gamble just because a group of people are unhappy with EU? I would think not myself. as I have yet to met any Turkey vote for Christmas. go a good feeling that after all the Anti EU huffing and Buffing most people will vote to stay put. rather then to vote to take on a whole new economic meltdown that would come about if we left.

However, the main trouble with this whole debate is everyone in the Anti camp has different views what they wish to either see or vote on.

by sickchip Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:43 pm

Many british contractors work on the continent......electricians, pipefitters, etc. How will this effect their future prospects of employment? Will germany, france, holland, belgium, etc still be willing to cater for british workers, or will Cameron's actions sour their attitude towards the british worker?

by Ivanhoe Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:12 pm

sickchip wrote:Many british contractors work on the continent......electricians, pipefitters, etc. How will this effect their future prospects of employment? Will germany, france, holland, belgium, etc still be willing to cater for british workers, or will Cameron's actions sour their attitude towards the british worker?

That is a very good question. Europe are way ahead of Britain regarding employement, and employement rights.

While they have had a good manufacturing, and industry base for decades, we since Thatcher have been trotting along as a mainly service industry, but with small business propping up, but because there simply isnt enough disposable income in this country, the small business relies on trading overseas.

The problem with Britain regarding Erurope, is that we dont have the Euro, so we are outside looking in as far as European negotiations are concerned
on grass roots issues.

Cameron is playing the little Englander, just like Thatcher. And so the EU rightly are leaving us behind.

by kentdougal Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:20 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
sickchip wrote:Many british contractors work on the continent......electricians, pipefitters, etc. How will this effect their future prospects of employment? Will germany, france, holland, belgium, etc still be willing to cater for british workers, or will Cameron's actions sour their attitude towards the british worker?

That is a very good question. Europe are way ahead of Britain regarding employement, and employement rights.

While they have had a good manufacturing, and industry base for decades, we since Thatcher have been trotting along as a mainly service industry, but with small business propping up, but because there simply isnt enough disposable income in this country, the small business relies on trading overseas.

The problem with Britain regarding Erurope, is that we dont have the Euro, so we are outside looking in as far as European negotiations are concerned
on grass roots issues.

Cameron is playing the little Englander, just like Thatcher. And so the EU rightly are leaving us behind.

Another total load of rubbish you need to keep up with the news it's France that's getting frozen out Germany is now courting Cameron and some of the other gung ho nodding donkeys have found things not so simple when faced with their own parliament and electorate.While we're on this we vetoed NOTHING because there was nothing to veto further more it was nothing to do with banks because in the end we can't stop any action as long as we stay in the EU is was about giving up control over our national budget arrangements to Brussels.It was a no brainer really. So Ivanhoe wants the Euro I think that might make you a little Euroer or a candidate for the men in white coats

by Ivanhoe Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:02 pm

kentdougal wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
sickchip wrote:Many british contractors work on the continent......electricians, pipefitters, etc. How will this effect their future prospects of employment? Will germany, france, holland, belgium, etc still be willing to cater for british workers, or will Cameron's actions sour their attitude towards the british worker?

That is a very good question. Europe are way ahead of Britain regarding employement, and employement rights.

While they have had a good manufacturing, and industry base for decades, we since Thatcher have been trotting along as a mainly service industry, but with small business propping up, but because there simply isnt enough disposable income in this country, the small business relies on trading overseas.

The problem with Britain regarding Erurope, is that we dont have the Euro, so we are outside looking in as far as European negotiations are concerned
on grass roots issues.

Cameron is playing the little Englander, just like Thatcher. And so the EU rightly are leaving us behind.

Another total load of rubbish you need to keep up with the news it's France that's getting frozen out Germany is now courting Cameron and some of the other gung ho nodding donkeys have found things not so simple when faced with their own parliament and electorate.While we're on this we vetoed NOTHING because there was nothing to veto further more it was nothing to do with banks because in the end we can't stop any action as long as we stay in the EU is was about giving up control over our national budget arrangements to Brussels.It was a no brainer really. So Ivanhoe wants the Euro I think that might make you a little Euroer or a candidate for the men in white coats

I dont believe I said that I wanted the Euro. I said that "because-we-do-not-have-the-Euro- in Britain, that France and Germany are locking us out of negotiations on grass roots issue. And they are.

by kentdougal Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:32 pm

I dont believe I said that I wanted the Euro. I said that "because-we-do-not-have-the-Euro- in Britain, that France and Germany are locking us out of negotiations on grass roots issue. And they are.[/quote]

As long as we are in EU they can't lock us out of anything other than Euro discussions which is natural since we are not in it. I suppose you're in favour of our national budget being overseen by the EU who I would remind are still for accounts to be signed off dating back to the beginning of the whole deception that was sold to this electorate as a common market NOT a federal state.The reason so many MP's(many failed ones) are in favour of the whole idea is it throws up a whole load of new career opportunities to get on a tax payer funded gravy train-like the Kinnocks

by bobby Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:33 pm

I dont know about Germany, but I do know that in Italy and France, tradesmen need to be licenced by the st6ate to operate. What loads of Brit X pats are finding is they can not find work, so many thousands have come home. Many who stay can only find work on the black economy working cash in hand for other Brits. This is OK, but when retirement time comes some find themselves deep in the shit and have to follow their predesessors and come home Tail between Legs. We should adopt the same system, and many rades jobs would have to go to home grown workers as the immigrants would not be able to work untill they are licenced. Why doesn't Herr Cameron look into this. Could it be that if implimented they the rich taskmasters and friends of the Tories would lose their unending supply of cheap labour.

by keenobserver1 Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:37 pm

bobby wrote:I dont know about Germany, but I do know that in Italy and France, tradesmen need to be licenced by the st6ate to operate. What loads of Brit X pats are finding is they can not find work, so many thousands have come home. Many who stay can only find work on the black economy working cash in hand for other Brits. This is OK, but when retirement time comes some find themselves deep in the shit and have to follow their predesessors and come home Tail between Legs. We should adopt the same system, and many rades jobs would have to go to home grown workers as the immigrants would not be able to work untill they are licenced. Why doesn't Herr Cameron look into this. Could it be that if implimented they the rich taskmasters and friends of the Tories would lose their unending supply of cheap labour.

The Construction Skills Certification Scheme ( CSCS) was supposed to do this in the UK, however it wasn't enforced correctly at the time of implementation and there is still difficulty in getting all the tradesmen in the country to register.

by oftenwrong Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:19 pm

"there is still difficulty in getting all the tradesmen in the country to register."

Possibly not unconnected with a concommitant liability for tax.

by keenobserver1 Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:58 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"there is still difficulty in getting all the tradesmen in the country to register."

Possibly not unconnected with a concommitant liability for tax.

It has nothing to do with tax, it is health and safety based and is essentially a good idea that has been badly managed.

by oftenwrong Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:13 pm

The currently uncertain state of the Euro is throwing up strains in unexpected places. Unsurprisingly individual Countries are making their own decisions, one of which has been that Portugal is introducing toll charges on its motorways (that were constructed with "European" money several years ago.)

Neighbouring provinces of Spain are extremely offput at this interruption of their free passage, particularly from Southwestern Spain into the Algarve - a busy tourist route during the summer.

by **Ivan** Fri May 04, 2012 1:38 pm

A poll carried out by Populus has found that:-

67% of people support staying in the European Union. 36% of people think Britain should stay in the EU but only as a member of a free trade area, 18% as we currently are but with no further integration, and 14% of people say the UK should stay in the EU and play a full role in any further integration. Only a third of people think Britain should leave the EU.

56% of the general public believe there should be a referendum on Britain’s EU membership.

68% would be more supportive of Britain integrating further if they thought it would help the UK economy.

People want a more protective EU, with strong support for co-operative action on crime and terrorism (71%), illegal immigration (59%), and a majority of Britons (52%) think it would be best to use the EU in co-operating and sharing defence resources in order to reduce costs and co-ordinate military action.

Source:-
http://www.policy-network.net/news/3942/Britain-and-the-survival-of-the-European-project

by oftenwrong Fri May 04, 2012 4:52 pm

100% would no doubt prefer to have their cake and eat it too, but there really is no such thing as a free lunch (or tea).

I've always thought the main benefit of the EU is as a tariff wall against the rest of the World's traders dumping their surplus on us at prices that destroy British jobs. (Not mentioned above.)

by trevorw2539 Mon May 07, 2012 1:49 pm

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/318555/All-migrants-to-get-a-British-pension

by oftenwrong Wed May 16, 2012 7:56 pm

PMQs today revealed that Mr Cameron is alarmed at the situation in the Eurozone, and thinks they should either fart or get off the pot. No doubt the Greek nation will be emboldened by his remarks.

Nobody gains from Greece being spat-out of the Eurozone, with the possible exception of rapacious speculators who will proceed to "pick-off" the weaker members, starting with Portugal, and then proceeding via Ireland, Spain and Italy to finally leave a sort of 21st.C. Hanseatic League in place.

Cameron is right (I can't imagine how) in saying that the Eurozone has to establish buffers against the rest. If the 26 Nation-States could for once unite against the financial jackals, there'd be no bone to chew on.

by tlttf Thu May 17, 2012 7:42 am

The reality is kicking in. You want a single currency, you need a single government. Simple really!

by **Ivan** Thu May 17, 2012 8:54 am

You want a single currency, you need a single government

I agree with you (which must be a first!). With hindsight that looks obvious. Political union was always the aim of some Europhiles, but they've done things the wrong way round.

by oftenwrong Thu May 17, 2012 12:32 pm

Perfidious Albion is not really in a position to criticise the EU for maintaining national interests. Ever since Ted Heath blindsided the Europhobes, the UK has maintained a semi-detached "membership" rather like a bride going home to Mummy whenever things get tense.

If ever the other Eurozone components DO get their act together, they'll make it difficult for us to join the party poolside after keeping one foot on the bottom for so long.

by tlttf Sat May 19, 2012 9:05 am

Good job we've stayed in the shallow end then?

by Ivanhoe Sat May 19, 2012 11:20 am

oftenwrong wrote:Perfidious Albion is not really in a position to criticise the EU for maintaining national interests. Ever since Ted Heath blindsided the Europhobes, the UK has maintained a semi-detached "membership" rather like a bride going home to Mummy whenever things get tense.

If ever the other Eurozone components DO get their act together, they'll make it difficult for us to join the party poolside after keeping one foot on the bottom for so long.

oftenwrong, You are correct in your observations about Cameron and Europe.

Our only connection with Europe is our £50 plus million a day membership. Other that that we share nothing in common with Europe, socially or economically.

Cameron wants the EU to free up regulations, what he is saying is that he wants the EU to remove workers rights to make it easy to sack and hire people. JAust like here in Britain.

But more than this, Cameron has always waitged in the wings for Europe to go right wing so he can be more in Europe and have another British empire.

Unfortunately With Socialist Hollande leading France now, this has scuppured Cameron's right wing ideoligical plans.

by oftenwrong Sat May 19, 2012 12:46 pm

Perhaps we should invite the European nations to join the Sterling Area.

by witchfinder Sat May 19, 2012 1:58 pm

When showing league tables of the worlds economies, the Eurozone and quite often the whole of the EU is shown as one single economy, this is done by tables produced by the IMF, World Bank, the CIA factbook and others.

The EU is regarded as the worlds largest consumer economy, and its no secret that the the world is moving towards regional economic blocks.
From Asia to Latin America and even North America, regional trading blocks and economic communities are emerging, but the EU remains the most advanced.

The largest single trading partner for Canada is the United States, the largest trading partners of Australia are in the Asia-Pacific region, and for most of us here in Europe, our most valuable trading partners are here on our doorstep.

Common sense says that 27 nations side by side, all bordering one another, all trading with each other should use a common currency, it just makes sense, but many people continue to fly in the face of common sense and argue that 27 different currencies are better - are these people crazy. ?

One day, probably not soon, but sometime in the future, we will be part of a European common currency.

by Ivanhoe Sat May 19, 2012 3:30 pm

witchfinder wrote:When showing league tables of the worlds economies, the Eurozone and quite often the whole of the EU is shown as one single economy, this is done by tables produced by the IMF, World Bank, the CIA factbook and others.

The EU is regarded as the worlds largest consumer economy, and its no secret that the the world is moving towards regional economic blocks.
From Asia to Latin America and even North America, regional trading blocks and economic communities are emerging, but the EU remains the most advanced.

The largest single trading partner for Canada is the United States, the largest trading partners of Australia are in the Asia-Pacific region, and for most of us here in Europe, our most valuable trading partners are here on our doorstep.

Common sense says that 27 nations side by side, all bordering one another, all trading with each other should use a common currency, it just makes sense, but many people continue to fly in the face of common sense and argue that 27 different currencies are better - are these people crazy. ?

One day, probably not soon, but sometime in the future, we will be part of a European common currency.

Like income tax increases, this would be a vote loser in Britain.

by astra Sat May 19, 2012 4:09 pm

Icebergs! What icebergs? Fool speed ahead Bosun!

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