Manufacturing, does it matter?

I have always believed that the 1980s Tory party policy that lead to the unbalancing of the UK economy and away from UK Manufacturing and production Industrial base was a very big mistake. I myself never felt that Thatchers move to push the UK economy into the financial service sector was truly sustainable or reliable economic policy for the UK. That the German model of its small financial sector that's main role is to support and invest in its manufacturing and production industrial base was by far more stable for our economy. as this was also the back bone of much of our own Economy in the first part of the 20th Century.

The financial sector of the economy has had a history of greed as was seen in both the 1929 Wall street crash and 2008 World banking crash. The Financial sector has been driven by markets that feed on rumour and distorted balance sheets and short term economic gains for the very few. for me..this area of the economy will always be subject to abuse by less scrupulous elements within the City. its also my own view that no amount of financial service regulation will ever totally control the financial service sector; the best we could hope for is too lesion any impact a crash would have on the Whole UK economy in general.

Now the right wing always claims that in the 1980s that UK manufacturing was run with out dated plant and poor management and was full of industrial relations issues. So the move to financial sector was the only future for the UK economy and Thatcher and the Tory party sold this a some sort of shareholders democracy. This would be funded on the back of North Sea revenues. while we would all become a service economy, I rather suspect that this policy of unbalancing the UK economy had a great deal more too do with Tory party fears of the so-called Union power of the 1970s. This was confirmed in Alan Clarkes History of the Tory party and had a great deal less to do with the economy. In other words you weaken manufacturing while at the same time weaken the Union base at the same time. while turning as many people as possible into this individual home owning and shareholding democracy that was feed on this idea that you could borrow cheap credit from the City, While they in turn borrow from out side the UK.

I have argued for well over 30 years that four things would result in this policy. (1) we would see a speeding up decline in UK manufacturing investment that in turn would lead to a decline in manufacturing share of UK G.D.P (2) That we would see an increase in UK Import with a trade imbalance that today sits at £65 Billion (OBR) (3) That as manufacturing fell away that long term Unemployment would rise and that low wage incomes would result due to a much more unstable employment market. (4) That there would be a sea change within education as UK youth move from manufacturing to the service sector. as the education standards and needs are lower outside the manufacturing industrial base as a whole.

Today the new argument from the right wing is we must compete with the low wage and low quality economies of the far east. its my view that once more this is the wrong road to go down. as no matter how we try will can never compete with these sorts of economies. We should follow the German and even the North Italian models of high quality manufacturing sector.

So do you really believe that this Government will re-balance our economy and re-build UK Manufacturing? Or do you believe that Manufacturing for the UK is a thing of the past?

As for me. Well I believe that while we have this government our manufacturing sector will just go into a greater decline, as every policy they have is for the financial service sector. as Cameron even went to Europe telling us that he would defend the City NOT Manufacturing?

is that right?

Today the new argument from the right wing is we must compete with the low wage and low quality economies of the far east. its my view that once more this is the wrong road to go down. as no matter how we try will can never compete with these sorts of economies.

Oh! Come come, you poor naive fool! Don't you understand that that has been the intention all along? Why do you think minimum wage was introduced? Why do you imagine unemployment is used as an excuse to stagnate or, indeed, drive wages down? Why do you imagine overtures about forcing the unemployed to work for benefits are being simultaneously made alongside a sustained campaign of negative misinformation about the unemployed?

sickchip wrote:

Today the new argument from the right wing is we must compete with the low wage and low quality economies of the far east. its my view that once more this is the wrong road to go down. as no matter how we try will can never compete with these sorts of economies.

Oh! Come come, you poor naive fool! Don't you understand that that has been the intention all along? Why do you think minimum wage was introduced? Why do you imagine unemployment is used as an excuse to stagnate or, indeed, drive wages down? Why do you imagine overtures about forcing the unemployed to work for benefits are being simultaneously made alongside a sustained campaign of negative misinformation about the unemployed?

Funny as a naive fool I am..I agree with you. but we both know many on the Right do not? its this that i find most amazing. no there is nothing naive in a policy put the wages of the poor down or cuts that can only leads to long term Structural unemployment in manufacturing. I would also say i quite agree there has been a great deal of misinformation pumped out by the right wing press on a whole rang of issues... and unemployment is to name just one of them.

High unemployment is widely recognised to create substantial costs for individuals and for the economy as a whole. Some of these costs are difficult to measure, especially the longer-term social costs of a high level of unemployment.
Fiscal costs: The government loses out because of a fall in tax revenues and higher spending on welfare payments for families with people out of work. The result can be an increase in the budget deficit which then increases the risk that the government will have to raise taxation or scale back plans for public spending on public and merit goods Today we are borrowing £123 billion more and overspending as well with growth set a 0.6% at the end of 2011, yet what is the currant economic fiscal policy of this Government? Well when you find out please drop me a line. as i have no real idea myself. as I cannot find a economic fiscal policy for ether growth or manufacturing.

So as for do i understand this was there plan all a long? well yes do understand it was the Tory plan in both 1983 and 2009. yet I put this in to explain what is wrong with how they run the UK economy or not in your eyes.

Well I believe the recent engineering manufacturing job losses demonstrate how totally uncommitted this Tory lead coalition government is to re-balancing the UK economy. As they continue to pursue financial engineering with their friends in the city and banks. at the expense of real engineering manufacturing jobs at companies like Forge-masters and now Bombardier, while our near European neighbours like Germany powers ahead by once more securing real manufacturing contracts from both the UK and China that are worth billions of pounds in exports?

How much more of UK manufacturing engineering sector will the Tory party decimate this time? to add on top of what Thatcher destroyed in the 1980s. the loss of the Bombardier contract will put up to 20,000 more people out of work while the taxpayer will shell out yet more money in unemployment benefits while this Coalition Government borrowing yet more money to pay for the unemployed people in manufacturing. This one contract will see a knock effect of Job losses in maintenance contract as well.

This currant Tory policy will once more lead Structural unemployment that occurs when there is a long run decline in demand in an industry leading to a reduction in employment perhaps because of increasing international competition Or Globalisation that is a fact of life today – and inevitably it leads to changes in the patterns of trade between both countries and the UK home market over time. Britain for example has probably now lost for good, its cost advantage in manufacturing goods such as motor cars, household goods and audio-visual equipment. Manufacturing industry has lost over 400,000 jobs in the last five years alone. Many of these workers may suffer from a period of structural unemployment, particularly if they are in regions of above-average unemployment rates where job opportunities are scarce. The decline in manufacturing industry jobs can be seen from the 1970s right though the Thatcher years.

Skills shortages have been a recurrent problem in manufacturing jobs, but the problem has widened to new economy businesses and also the public services (including education and the NHS)

We need to use the German model engineering manufacturing such as below

We need new manufacturing companies with new product – design, development, production, marketing etc.

UK Suppliers involved in the new product development so that potential delays in resourcing of raw materials, components and services can be anticipated and avoided

A teamwork approach is used, with all areas involved in the project working on the project at the same time.
The end result is that:

The new product is brought to the market much more quickly than in the past.

We need firms to be able to charge a premium price that will give a better profit margin and help recoup R&D costs

This will lead to the less likelihood of a need to modify the product later due to unforeseen problems, such as both German and Japan do today.

A greater sense of involvement across business functions improves staff commitment to the project. as you would find in both Germany and Japan.

Technical – it cost-effective to invest in more advanced production machinery, IT and software when operating on a larger scale. as they do in German and Japan. yet we fail to do so. The average working life of UK production machinery is 30 years in the UK while in German it just 10 years. this shows invest levels in both the UK and German very well.

Lack of motivation – in larger firms, workers can feel that they are not appreciated or valued as individuals - see Mayo and Herzberg. It can be more difficult for managers in larger firms to develop the right kind of relationship with workers. If motivation falls, productivity may fall leading to inefficiencies. This has become far to common within UK manufacturing in my view

We need a financial sector that back UK manufacturing and production while good marketing. while moving away from the currant financial sectors needs for short term financial gain or gambling in markets that are run for the benefit of the less scrupulous elements within the City. we need to end this quick buck culture of shareholders buying share a say £1 and selling them within six months for £2.50p and not even waiting for the company divided at the end of the year.

can this be done? yes it can?

However, this is not the Government that will lead to any of this at all. as this weak government is only interested in financial service sector and not UK Manufacturing and production with modern development and production marketing. unless we start to re-balance the UK economy away from the Tory parties obsession with just the financial service sector we are in for a very long economic struggle that could lead to years of poor and quite fruitless economic future. I work in the area of economics and cannot find the words to sum up the time we have wasted on an economic policy that is stuck in the mistakes of the 1980s.

So I maybe naive in stating the right wings views in your eyes? but I am far from naive in the long term damage we face today. We as a people have just seen the out come of Mrs Thatchers De-regulation of the financial service sector stated 30 years ago, while I saw the full fruits of this policy come home to roost in the 2008 world banking crisis. Now like it or not, which I myself do not. many people in the UK think we can still sit on our hands and wait and see if the new Tory party policy will work in the end. I see no real reason why this Policy will work at all. all we are doing is wasting even more time on a policy that was first seen back in the 1980s. Well it did not work then, and there is no sign it will work today. as we have to move away from a distorted economic policy that has left us with just 17% of UK G.D.P coming from Manufacturing.

I fear that once more the Midlands, North, Wales, and Scotland will be paying the price for the bankers in the South east, London and Surrey. So much for Cameron's talk about re-balancing the UK economy then.

........good post Stox. I don't think even a tory could argue against it.......except to point out that in 13yrs (new) Labour done nothing to change what Thatcher implemented.

This topic was ventilated on BBC TV just before the holiday, and inter alia they interviewed a Manufacturer of engineered metal widgets entirely for the export market. He said he had a thriving and prospering business with Asia, Africa and South America.

Asked about Europe, he said he had stopped trying to overcome the red-tape involved in trying to sell metal-engineering into that market.

oftenwrong wrote:This topic was ventilated on BBC TV just before the holiday, and inter alia they interviewed a Manufacturer of engineered metal widgets entirely for the export market. He said he had a thriving and prospering business with Asia, Africa and South America.

Asked about Europe, he said he had stopped trying to overcome the red-tape involved in trying to sell metal-engineering into that market.

I don't suppose the fact that he thought that could conceivably have led to his being chosen for interview?

"I don't suppose the fact that he thought that could conceivably have led to his being chosen for interview?"

Can't say. I didn't produce the programme, I only watched it.

Pedantically, it's true that every thing that we think we "know" apart from direct personal involvement, has been censored in one way or the other. BBC News is famously supposed to be "balanced" and newspapers print what their Readers have demonstrated they will buy. Sometimes you can trust almost 5% of a government pronouncement about an "issue".

Keep calm, and carry on.

BBC News is famously supposed to be "balanced"

Which it certainly isn't. I complained to the BBC only yesterday about its bias in its news bulletins. What do they consider is the most important story at present? Bombs in Baghdad? Religious conflict in Nigeria? Repression in Syria? Yesterday's Tube strike? None of those. The story deemed to be more important was "90-year-old man still in hospital and visited by grandchildren". Today it's "90-year-old man discharged from hospital and sits in front passenger seat of car on the way home".

Sorry for going off topic, but this blatant royalist propaganda makes me sick.

Many british people who watch the BBC care very much about the royal family, and the welfare of it's members. So for a lot of the viewers this would've been the most important story and deserving of being the leading item.

After all, who really cares, or wants to hear, about tube strikes, bombs in baghdad, etc?

sickchip wrote:
After all, who really cares, or wants to hear, about tube strikes, bombs in baghdad, etc?

Those who switch on the news to find out what's really going on in the world, rather than have to listen to trivia about where an old man chooses to sit in a car.

I don't agree that the royals are important to the vast majority of the 63 million people who live in the UK. I never hear people discussing them. Most of us are concerned about jobs, our diminishing incomes and the NHS.

I heard no mention on the news (although I did switch it off before it finished) of the latest Tory plan to allow foundation hospitals (which will be all hospitals by 2014) to privatise 49% of their beds, instead of 2% as previously. Such media saturation and unnecessary detail about the old duke is just meant to distract us while such dastardly deeds are being done during the Christmas parliamentary recess. I would have expected you to be more cynical and less gullible.

Now can we return to Stox's excellent topic about manufacturing?

I would have expected you to be more cynical

Maybe I was being precisely that!

I am totally with you Ivan. I bet this 90 year old Greek man didn’t have to
wait on any waiting list, and after his surgery wasn’t kicked out before time to save money, but stayed till the knew he was OK.
My youngest Auntie Edgarda, worked as a maid to one of the Ladies in waiting, at the time of this employment, the queen was in Buck House. My Zia (Auntie) got herself in trouble one day, by addressing the Queen as missus. Let me explain. Edgarda on entering a room where the Queen was, addressed the Queen by saying “Bon Giorno Signora” , with this she continued whatever it was that she was doing. Later that day she was called into her immediate bosses office to be told off. She was told never to Address the Queen in such a manner but must refer to her as “Your Majesty”, my Zia being from the real world, couldn’t see what all the fuss was about and said “ but she’s your Majesty, not mine. I never heard what the outcome of that was because she left shortly after, due the a very long world trip the New Royal Family was going to embark on, and didn’t want to be away from My Nonna for such a long time. The year was 1953. You would have thought that such a minor infringement of protocol, would have meant very little to someone in such an elevated position as the Queens, but no she made an issue if it. But then I guess we little people should know our place, and tug our forelocks and bow to members of this Family, who’s biggest problem in life, is sorting out who is either mad or illegitimate.

Ivan wrote:

BBC News is famously supposed to be "balanced"

Which it certainly isn't. I complained to the BBC only yesterday about its bias in its news bulletins. What do they consider is the most important story at present? Bombs in Baghdad? Religious conflict in Nigeria? Repression in Syria? Yesterday's Tube strike? None of those. The story deemed to be more important was "90-year-old man still in hospital and visited by grandchildren". Today it's "90-year-old man discharged from hospital and sits in front passenger seat of car on the way home".

Sorry for going off topic, but this blatant royalist propaganda makes me sick.

The Romans invented the technique. They described it as "Bread and Circuses" to keep the populace diverted away from revolting.

The british populace are certainly revolting.........in their apathy, and continued willingness to be told what is best for them by upper class bullingdon club toffs.

The british public are rather pathetic aren't they?

sickchip wrote:........good post Stox. I don't think even a tory could argue against it.......except to point out that in 13yrs (new) Labour done nothing to change what Thatcher implemented.

Thank you for saying that Sickchip. I run my own business with 29 employees and am a member of the Labour party for 30 years this coming year. I have argued for the whole 13 years that we should do something about our Manufacturing base. I did not leave the party but still campaign for UK manufacturing and will go on doing so. We have to change sickchip and move away from this economic policy we have to day.

oftenwrong wrote:This topic was ventilated on BBC TV just before the holiday, and inter alia they interviewed a Manufacturer of engineered metal widgets entirely for the export market. He said he had a thriving and prospering business with Asia, Africa and South America.

Asked about Europe, he said he had stopped trying to overcome the red-tape involved in trying to sell metal-engineering into that market.

I also fully agree with your summary Oftenwrong. What is not often said is that this Government has already added to the engineering red tape. I saw this BBC TV show and have to say European and UK red Tape is a big issue. but not in the way this Government talk about Red Tape. we have to change the way we run our economy and manufacturing. if not we face a very bad time over many years to come.

Ivan wrote:

sickchip wrote:
After all, who really cares, or wants to hear, about tube strikes, bombs in baghdad, etc?

Those who switch on the news to find out what's really going on in the world, rather than have to listen to trivia about where an old man chooses to sit in a car.

I don't agree that the royals are important to the vast majority of the 63 million people who live in the UK. I never hear people discussing them. Most of us are concerned about jobs, our diminishing incomes and the NHS.

I heard no mention on the news (although I did switch it off before it finished) of the latest Tory plan to allow foundation hospitals (which will be all hospitals by 2014) to privatise 49% of their beds, instead of 2% as previously. Such media saturation and unnecessary detail about the old duke is just meant to distract us while such dastardly deeds are being done during the Christmas parliamentary recess. I would have expected you to be more cynical and less gullible.

Now can we return to Stox's excellent topic about manufacturing?

Thanks for saying its an excellent topic Ivan. I Believe this is a debate we must have in the UK. if we do not have a debate on this issue than we will hand the economy over to the Right wing City agenda once more. it so important its hard to put into words.

THE GUARDIAN 07/12/2011

When David Cameron says that his red line for Thursday's European summit is that no harm should come to the City of London, it is like watching the clock being turned back to the heady days before the crisis. Brown ended his long stint at the Treasury with a Mansion House speech in which he said Britain needed "more of the vigour, ingenuity and aspiration that you already demonstrate that is the hallmark of your success".

That model of the economy went down the tubes six weeks later, and it became plain as Britain sank into its most grievous recession since the 1930s just how dependent the economy had become on its over-leveraged financial services sector. The new coalition government promised change. It pledged itself not just to austerity but to a rebalancing of the economy that would make the City less pivotal to the country's well-being.

George Osborne got quite carried away by this prospect in his 2011 budget. "We want the words: made in Britain, created in Britain, designed in Britain, invented in Britain, to drive our nation forward," the chancellor said at the climax of his speech.

Politicians say this sort of stuff all the time, of course, but there were some grounds for optimism. In early 2011, the global economy looked set for robust growth and British exporters had a competitive advantage over their rivals of a 25% drop in the value of sterling since 2007.

There has, however, been no march of the makers. Wednesday's manufacturing data shows that, far from being in the vanguard of economic revival, Britain's factories are leading the retreat. Manufacturing output has been sliding since the spring, and fell by 0.7% in October, the latest month for which data is available. There are one or two bright spots: production of capital goods is still growing, which suggests that some hi-tech firms are still prospering; output from food and drink companies is up, because even when the overall economy is struggling people still have to eat.

But the underlying state of manufacturing is poor. Output is 7% below where it was at its most recent peak in 2007, and would presumably have been lower still had it not been for the falling pound. The UK's trade deficit in goods continues to widen as it has done inexorably since the early 1980s, only this time without the cushioning effect of North Sea oil and gas production. Wednesday's data from the Office for National Statistics shows that the fields are rapidly running dry: North Sea output is down by 30% since 2008.

The travails of manufacturing and the decline in oil and gas output has made the UK even more dependent on financial services as it tries to pay its way in the world. Britain's surplus in its trade in services – of which financial services makes up a big component – offsets more than half the deficit in trade in goods. This is the argument used by the City when it lobbies ministers for help in blocking things it doesn't want – an FTT, a splitting up of banks into retail and investment arms, more European regulations. The message is simple: there is only one goose capable of laying any golden eggs, so do you really want to kill it?

We have been here before. In the 1920s, Winston Churchill said he wanted "finance less proud and industry more content", but hobbled manufacturing by bowing to the City's insistence that Britain should be put back on the gold standard. Likewise Cameron and Osborne can see the dangers in having all the nation's economic eggs in one basket, but as manufacturing continues to head south expend large amounts of political energy ensuring there is no diminution in a sector they say they want to see become relatively less important. Nothing has changed.

I agree Stox.

Our current economic policies cater to a minority, are damaging to society, and offer no hope of real sustainable growth/prosperity. They are just a quick fix way to get rich for a handful of the population.

We need economic policies that focus on the majority/society and offer prospects of employment and reward for all. Younger, and future, generations need hope, reasonable financial reward, and the scope for developing their lives in a positive direction. Economic policy that ignores societal well-being, and is centred on greed, will never work.

It's astonishing that some people sing Thatcher's praises when her ethos was no such thing as society/dog eat dog.

sickchip wrote:I agree Stox.

Our current economic policies cater to a minority, are damaging to society, and offer no hope of real sustainable growth/prosperity. They are just a quick fix way to get rich for a handful of the population.

We need economic policies that focus on the majority/society and offer prospects of employment and reward for all. Younger, and future, generations need hope, reasonable financial reward, and the scope for developing their lives in a positive direction. Economic policy that ignores societal well-being, and is centred on greed, will never work.

It's astonishing that some people sing Thatcher's praises when her ethos was no such thing as society/dog eat dog.

A very good Reply Sickchip and one I can fully agree with myself. You are so right in saying we need an economic policy that focus on the majority of society and that offers prospects of employment and reward for all. We are today at a crossroads in the UK. as we either let the right wing push us into the hands of 3 million city workers in the hope they can keep the other 55 million people alive? or we face up to the right wing and there press friends and challenge them over this issue. as many public sector jobs will also be at risk if we once more lose this very debate in my view.

oh boy. the Thatcher years. god how i hate the real damage she did to the UK. i cannot believe anyone in the UK would sing her praises but they do. hell some nutter has even made a film about her. just amazing too me and i bet you too

JUST REMEMBER THESE ARE REAL WORKING PEOPLE AND ITS TIME TO SUPPORT THEM.

In June 2010 British Manufacturing accounted for 8.2% of the workforce and 12% of the national output in June 2010. This was a continuation of the steady decline in the importance of Manufacturing to the Economy of the UK since the 1960s, although the sector was still important for overseas trade, accounting for 83% of exports in 2003. The East Midlands and West Midlands (at 12.6 and 11.8% respectively) were the regions with the highest proportion of employees in manufacturing. London had the lowest at 2.8%.
Although the manufacturing sector's share of both employment and the UK's GDP has steadily fallen since the 1960s, data from the OECD shows that manufacturing output in terms of both production and value has steadily increased since 1945. A 2009 report from PricewaterhouseCoopers, citing data from the UK Office for National Statistics, stated that manufacturing output (gross value added at 2007 prices) has increased in 35 of the 50 years between 1958 and 2007, and output in 2007 was at record levels, approximately double that in 1958.
WIKIPEDIA

It would be interesting to know what % of our workforce are employed in the service industry on minimum/low wages doing unproductive and often unneccesary jobs........and topping up a non-living wage with benefits - hence paying no tax.

Are we becoming a nation of burger flippers?

sickchip wrote:It would be interesting to know what % of our workforce are employed in the service industry on minimum/low wages doing unproductive and often unneccesary jobs........and topping up a non-living wage with benefits - hence paying no tax.

Are we becoming a nation of burger flippers?

Do you know I have never looked that up. but its a very good question indeed. Well that is the real danger that we do end up as burger flippers. The Right wing always talk about the service industry as if its some great economic new thing. but they always forget to point out that while we gain some tax, we gain NO benefit in overseas exports. yet this is the real key in economics. as exports are the real key to growth. but i will check this out and post it.

Retail trade

This sector includes the motor trade, auto repairs, personal and household goods industries. The Blue Book 2006 reports that this sector added gross value of £127,520 million to the UK economy in 2004.[72]
The UK grocery market is dominated by five companies – Asda (owned by Wal-Mart Stores), The Co-operative Food, Morrisons, Sainsbury's and Tesco – which together have a market share of over 80%.[123]
London is a major retail centre and in 2010 had the highest non-food retail sales of any city in the world, with a total spend of around £64.2 billion.[124] The UK-based Tesco is the third-largest retailer in the world measured by revenues (after Wal-Mart Stores and Carrefour) and is the current leader in the UK market with around a 30% share.
THATCHER YEARS
A new period of neo-liberal economics began in 1979 with the election of Margaret Thatcher, who won the general election on 3 May that year to return the Conservative Party to government after five years of Labour rule.
During the 1980s most state-owned enterprises were privatised, taxes cut and markets deregulated. GDP fell 5.9% at first but growth rose to 5% at its peak in 1988, one of the highest rates of any European nation.
However, Mrs Thatcher's modernisation of the British economy was far from trouble free; her battle against inflation resulted in mass unemployment with the jobless count passing 3,000,000 by the start of 1982 compared to 1,500,000 three years previously. This was in part due to the closure of outdated factories and coalpits which were no longer economically viable; this process continued for most of the rest of the decade. Unemployment peaked at nearly 3,300,000 during 1984 before falling dramatically in the final three years of the decade, standing at just over 1,600,000 by the end of 1989.However, the British economy slid into another recession during the second half of 1990, concurrent with a global recession, and caused the economy to shrink by a total of 8% from peak to trough and unemployment to increase from around 1,600,000 to nearly 3,000,000 by early 1993, when the recession ended, and the subsequent economic recovery was extremely strong. Unlike the early 1980s recession the recovery saw a rapid and substantial fall in unemployment, which was down to 1,700,000 by 1997.

WIKIPEDIA

Not that I agreed with this.....closure of outdated factories and coalpits which were no longer economically viable. as I believe many companies that where economically viable were also killed off.

There is little argument that Thatcher set out to dismantle organised labour because it represented an alternative focus of power. Local authorities, in particular but not only the LCC, were also emasculated around the same time, and for precisely the same reason.

The preferred alternative, City Financiers, have regrettably shown themselves to be much more of a threat to the national interest.

There is anecdotal evidence that many British manufacturers, as well as the Building Industry, do in fact now have substantial cash reserves because they are reluctant to make investment decisions while all the European Administrators are so undecided about the future.

oftenwrong wrote:There is little argument that Thatcher set out to dismantle organised labour because it represented an alternative focus of power. Local authorities, in particular but not only the LCC, were also emasculated around the same time, and for precisely the same reason.

The preferred alternative, City Financiers, have regrettably shown themselves to be much more of a threat to the national interest.

There is anecdotal evidence that many British manufacturers, as well as the Building Industry, do in fact now have substantial cash reserves because they are reluctant to make investment decisions while all the European Administrators are so undecided about the future.

[quote="oftenwrong"]There is little argument that Thatcher set out to dismantle organised labour because it represented an alternative focus of power. Local authorities, in particular but not only the LCC, were also emasculated around the same time, and for precisely the same reason. Totally Agree with this

The preferred alternative, City Financiers, have regrettably shown themselves to be much more of a threat to the national interest.

Reply.... This is an interesting one. as I believe that City financiers are a greater threat to the UK economy. as for the most part there interests lay in their own greed and not in the well being of the UK economy. as they are just a happy to trade in Malta as they are in the City of London. it means nothing at all too them what country they happen to live in. I also believe that Thatcher and her friends where far more worried about the union power of the 1970 than the economy. so saw that weakening of UK manufacturing would also result in the weakening of union power.

There is anecdotal evidence that many British manufacturers, as well as the Building Industry, do in fact now have substantial cash reserves because they are reluctant to make investment decisions while all the European Administrators are so undecided about the future.

reply...this is true for the bigger manufacturers and less so for the small companies. but its also very clear that manufacturing has suffered from a lack of City investment in plant and R&D. as the returns are much slower that say the finance sector. If the UK was to leave the EU than it would be interesting to see if companies in say stay manufacturing in the UK OR would set up plant within the EU. rather than take the chance of picking up added costs while staying in the UK. But this is open to debate

The Guardian report

A closely watched monthly survey from Markit/CIPS showed the UK manufacturing headline index dipping to 49 in August from 49.4 in July. Export orders plunged, with the measure falling to 46.6 from 53.8. A number below 50 signals contraction.

"The second half of 2011 has so far seen the UK manufacturing sector, once the pivotal cog in the economic recovery, switch into reverse gear," said Rob Dobson, senior economist at Markit. August saw production fall for the first time since May 2009 on the back of the sharpest deterioration in new orders for two-and-a-half years. There was also a slight drop in employment levels as manufacturers sought to cut costs.

"The sudden and substantial drop in new export orders is particularly worrisome, with UK manufacturers hit by rising global economic uncertainty, just as austerity measures are ramping up at home

manufacturing industry has lost over 400,000 jobs in the last five years alone. Many of these workers may suffer from a period of structural unemployment, particularly if they are in regions of above-average unemployment rates where job opportunities are scarce. This can only lead to a skilled workers shortages if we ever manage to get this economy going? we are heading very fast to more structural unemployment once more. this is such a real danger for the UK. as I see nothing done by this government to stop this drift of skilled Labour into say retail work.

manufacturing industry has lost over 400,000 jobs in the last five years alone

....there are also a lot of jobs being lost in construction.

sickchip wrote:

manufacturing industry has lost over 400,000 jobs in the last five years alone

....there are also a lot of jobs being lost in construction.

Yes this is also very true. but construction is almost a whole new topic on its own.

Construction is a huge sector, employing 7% of the UK’s workforce (Construction Statistics Annual Report 2006, DTI, June 2006).
In 2006, it provided 2.2 million jobs and that figure is expected to increase to over 2.8 million by 2011 (Blueprint for Construction Skills 2007-2011, Construction Skills Network, ConstructionSkills, February 2007). This figure is dependant on how well the industry recovers from the economic downturn in 2008/9.
In 2006/07, construction companies offered 49 graduate vacancies per organisation

Manufacturing matters to Britain. It creates a fifth of our national output, employs 4 million people and produces the majority of our
exports. It supports well-paid jobs in all regions. It can make a very substantial contribution to improvements in our economy's
productivity.The success of United Kingdom manufacturing is crucial to our country's prosperity, now and in the future.

its this export side that matters so much to the overall economy but lack real government support in my view

I guess the real battle with this banal government and its supporters will be over there total obsession with just the financial service sector and no other. if those of us who are on the left lose this battle again over the economy. then I can only see years of high unemployment and a weakening of our exports. with all the knock on effect in other sectors of the economy to come as a by product.

in the last 30 years i have seen a great deal many changes... as i am sure have many people. but it was the rise of the finance sector and its power and hold over the UK that has lead us to where we are today. what's more there are still many on the right who still believe its just a case of us returning to the policies of the 1980s. I have studied economics and right wing economics for over 30 years and have yet to find an real periods of economic stability. as they have been in power for the majority of governments In the last 100 years: 1912 to 2012.

Conservatives in power 54 years.
Labour in power 38 years.
Liberals in power 8 years.

They was in power at the time of the Wall street crash that lead us too The Depression that coincide with the bursting of a credit-inspired economic bubble that reminds me so much of the actions of the bankers in 2008. The day the London Stock Exchange's rules changed, 27 October 1986, was dubbed the "Big Bang" because of the increase in market activity expected from an aggregation of measures designed to precipitate a complete alteration in the structure of the market.The then Tory Chancellor at the time, Nigel Lawson defended his reform. "It was absolutely essential, because it was a way of bringing the stock market into the 20th century, and in particular making sure it was adequately capitalised. The Financial Services Act. wiping out the old banking system that worked better. The UK actually owned its Investment Banking industry, division of responsibilities, Stockbroker, Jobber, Investment Bank, Client created a better market. Open outcry markets are better at pricing and digging out fraud. Now we have a large gambling casino owned by Yanks that can go bust in one millionth of a second, many of Britains great companies have been trashed and sold off, GEC, ICI, Lucas, Dunlop all to generate one off fees. We can no longer afford to be guarantor for the Casino, time to close it down."? No not under this Government.

Yet here we are once more, facing a Tory party who still only see fit to defend the City of London while the rest of the UK pay the price for there very act while in office. this lead too The Guardian's economic editor, Larry Elliot in May 2011, wrote: "There is a simple reason why output is still 4% below its peak and growing only slowly: the debt-driven model of economic growth deployed in the 25 years from the financial deregulation of the 1980s to the bank run at Northern Rock no longer delivers. However, what do we hear the Right Wingers now say, it was all down to the Last Government, That we are all in this together? Well I do not know about anyone else but i do not remember the new class of nouveau riche that has persisted for two decades over banking and the City saying to me, Thanks for having an account with our bank. here is £2,500 pounds for you? so in other words and Tory party talk, we are all good for the debts but not good for the profits then? unless i missed them saying this too me?

So what did we do in 2009? yep we elected a Tory Government once again. Why, because people blamed the government for failing to regulate the City of London. but nobody ask who deregulated it in the first place?
As was it not the then Thatcher's government claimed that the two problems behind the decline of London banking were overregulation and the dominance of elitist old boy networks and that the solution lay in the free market doctrines of unfettered competition and meritocracy. Wikipedia
Have the Tory party said sorry for there failed economic policy and deregulation of the financial service sector? No not at all. as that was all down to everyone else and not them at all.

So now we have Tory party so-called economic austerity policy as our very own reward. so what is this new economic wonder policy. well it all boils down to a simple precept: that public spending cuts would be offset by private sector jobs and bingo the economy will get better all by itself. as that is it in full. nothing else just this. but bluntly this has not happened nor was it ever likely to happen after Gideon killed the little bit of growth he did have with putting VAT up. (what a great long term plan this is NOT) Still Gideon did do one thing as he put his first levy on bank profits in June 2010 budget. told us all that it was due to raise£8.3 billion over four years. its is currently set at an annual tax of 0.075% on the value of all the debt of UK banks. (Thank God for Gideon on banking tax ha ha)

Well I do not know about anyone else but WHAT A MASTERPIECE OF MAGICAL ECONOMIC NONSENSE. And yet we still have right wingers telling the rest of us. Just give it a chance and you will see. God just amazing. so we all do nothing at all and hope something will happen in the end. gee.... what a plan this is. As my local bar manager could of come up with such a great economic plan as this. just amazing

QUOTE: "And yet we still have right wingers telling the rest of us. Just give it a chance and you will see. God just amazing. so we all do nothing at all and hope something will happen in the end."

I think I prefer Gideon to do nothing. It's not easy to believe that alternative ideas from this Government would make things any better.

oftenwrong wrote:QUOTE: "And yet we still have right wingers telling the rest of us. Just give it a chance and you will see. God just amazing. so we all do nothing at all and hope something will happen in the end."

I think I prefer Gideon to do nothing. It's not easy to believe that alternative ideas from this Government would make things any better.

Well you have your views and I do not share them. I believe that they have a far better understanding of the economic picture than Gideon does. The Tory party are economically lost. Gideon does nothing because he does not know what too do at all.

So much for the Tory government being committed to UK manufacturing

The U.K. has selected South Korea's Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co. Ltd. for a GBP452 million contract to build refuelling tankers for the Royal Navy fleet, the BBC reports on its website Wednesday.

Some British companies participated in the tender, but the Ministry of Defence is quoted as saying that none of them submitted a final bid for the contract.

Production will take place in South Korea, but the U.K. has won GBP150 million of associated contracts,.
Fox news & BBC 23 /2/2012

Stox,


How many US $ do you rekon will be in the £150 million contracts?



Trains built in Germany

Ships for the Royal Navy built in South Korea


Only the UK would indulge in this largess with Tax Payer's Money!

astra wrote:Stox,


How many US $ do you rekon will be in the £150 million contracts?



Trains built in Germany

Ships for the Royal Navy built in South Korea


Only the UK would indulge in this largess with Tax Payer's Money!

Hi astra
Not a great deal mate. This government just keep exporting jobs and manufacturing. I am lost for words over all of this astra...but you know its worse than even this mate...

At the moment, the UK is leading the global market in offshore renewable just as it once was in shipbuilding. But once again, the rest of the world is quickly catching up. Governments in Norway, Canada, Germany and France have come together to develop shared strategies to improve their industries and, with the offshore market expected to generate £170bn a year by 2050, competition to gain a slice of the market is intense. however, the UK has walked away from backing our offshore renewables...

However, we have no shipbuilding left in the UK, with little too know money boosting the manufacture of wind turbine structures. we we have lost contracts within offshore building renewables already. we have just lost two contracts to either Rotterdam, Bremen, or Stavange...not which one now.

yet this is a government calling for GDP Growth...well we will never get that unless.. we start to fight to keep contract within the UK...why are we building new Navy ships in Korea? and building offshore re-newales in Germany and Holland or even Norway.. The economic arguements being put out by the Tory party government just do not stack up when you look hard at what they are saying.

LONDON, Feb 22 (Reuters) - Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering is in line to win a 452 million pound ($715 million) deal to build four refuelling tankers for the Royal Navy, the latest UK government contract to send manufacturing work overseas.

The Ministry of Defence said on Wednesday the South Korean company offered Britain the best value for money and was now in exclusive talks over the contract.

"A number of British companies took part in the competition, but none submitted a final bid for the build contract," the ministry added.

Britain's opposition Labour Party called the announcement bad news for British industry.

"I'd like to see more of our defence industry with a 'made in Britain' stamp on it. The country will want the government to do more to support British industry," Labour's defence spokesman Jim Murphy said.

Last year Britain awarded a consortium led by Germany's Siemens a 1.4 billion pound contract to build and maintain a key London railway link. As a result, incumbent contractor Canada's Bombardier said it would cut more than 1,400 jobs at its plant in Derby, central England.

"Once again UK taxpayer's money is being spent abroad. A proactive UK government could have put a consortium together to build these tankers in the UK," shipbuilding union GMB's National Secretary Keith Hazlewood said in a statement.

The Ministry of Defence said British companies would benefit from 150 million pounds of associated contracts.

"The Government remains committed to building complex warships in UK shipyards," said Peter Luff, the UK's Minister for Defence Equipment.

I've seen a whisper, that this gubmint has bought fast jets from France, any details?


http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/news/world/2012/02/22/korean_firm_wins_mod_tankers_deal


"The four Military Afloat Reach and Sustainability (Mars) tankers will maintain the Navy's ability to refuel warships at sea and will provide support for amphibious, land and air forces.

At more than 200 metres in length, each ship is as long as 14 double decker buses and can pump enough fuel to fill two Olympic-size swimming pools in an hour.

Shadow defence secretary Jim Murphy said: "This is more bad news for British industry. First we lose out to France over fast jets and now we lose out to South Korea over Royal Navy tankers."


OR

Is Murphy talking about Saudi giving the Jet order to France? I wonder!

astra wrote:I've seen a whisper, that this gubmint has bought fast jets from France, any details?


http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/news/world/2012/02/22/korean_firm_wins_mod_tankers_deal


"The four Military Afloat Reach and Sustainability (Mars) tankers will maintain the Navy's ability to refuel warships at sea and will provide support for amphibious, land and air forces.

At more than 200 metres in length, each ship is as long as 14 double decker buses and can pump enough fuel to fill two Olympic-size swimming pools in an hour.

Shadow defence secretary Jim Murphy said: "This is more bad news for British industry. First we lose out to France over fast jets and now we lose out to South Korea over Royal Navy tankers."


OR

Is Murphy talking about Saudi giving the Jet order to France? I wonder!

Hi astra
I did not know about the Jets...Good god...What the Hell are this Government doing? here we are crying out for GDP growth and too cut unemployment and these Tory idiots are exporting both growth and Jobs...you know this is just one more act of economic vandalism in my mind...here they are telling us they will pump money into our infrastructure projects...well what bigger infrastructure project than building up our own Manufacturing base? will will never gain any real GDP growth if we just though away contract like these...madness..utter madness

The Lunatics are running the Asylum

WHOOPS

No asylums left, guess who closed them for "Care in the Community"

I assume they think thus far they are safe!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7aItpjF5vXc

astra wrote:The Lunatics are running the Asylum

WHOOPS

No asylums left, guess who closed them for "Care in the Community"

I assume they think thus far they are safe!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7aItpjF5vXc

astra
That is very funny...as the very idea of them having any "Care in the Community" is quite absurd...