Who, in your opinion, was the greatest commander in history, and why?

by Stox 16 Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:19 am

Looking back over History there are many great commanders, Some like Marshal Kutusov was portrayed as the great Russian hero of the 1812 campaign while other believe the true hero was Barclay de Tolly who reformed and reinforced the Russian army for the 1812 campaign.

others believe Like i do that Alexander the Great was the greats war commander, as his combines triumph over great numbers with valour and obsession with vision and almost madness as he marched and fort from Greece to India a 2000 mile journey?

So who would you pick and why? what makes a great commander in your view? does he have to have almost madness and skill at the same time? what is it that you believe it takes? to fight and win against all the odds?

by Guest Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:20 am

Stox 16 wrote:
… Alexander the Great was the greatest war commander, as his combined triumph over great numbers with valour and obsession with vision and almost madness as he marched and fought from Greece to India…

Alexander must be at or near the top. He was indeed an obsessed madman, and additionally quite depraved. Perhaps the depravity was inevitable, given that Aristotle was his personal tutor. In Alexander’s favor was the fact that he led from the front, the “spear point” of his personal cavalry.

Stox 16 wrote:
So who would you pick and why?

I would pick several.

The “less-sung” commander of RAF Fighter Command, Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding, whose courageous decision to withhold full Fighter Command resources to the battle of France (viva la Vichy France) and subsequent shepherding of scant RAF Fighter Command Spitfires and Hurricanes during the Batle of Britain, might very well have been the difference between victory over Hitler’s Nazi Germany and Tojo’s inhumane Empire of Japan and defeat of Britain, and thus the world, and the 21st century world in which German and Japanese would be compulsory second languages that we might better understand the commands of our masters.

Also for the same reason, two heroes of the US Navy Pacific carrier campaign, Chester Nimitz and William Halsey (“When we’re through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell”, Vice Admiral William Halsey, Pearl, 8 December 1941), two of but nine American five star commanders in history, are near the top of the list for their relentless pursuance of the naval, air, and ground forces of the Empire of Japan through innovative and still used tactics of carrier power projection. It was a new type of war, with new rules being written battle by battle, and Nimitz and Halsey rose to the challenge.

by Shirina Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:35 pm

Sun Tsu ... simple as that. Everything today is modeled after Sun Tsu's tactics, and those who have failed to follow his tactics have always lost, those who followed his tactics have always won (generally speaking), even if the commanders in question weren't aware that Sun Tsu was the originator of their tactics.

by oftenwrong Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:28 pm

Irwin Rommel probably deserves a footnote in this context, just a shame he was on the wrong side.

by Stox 16 Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:05 am

oftenwrong wrote:Irwin Rommel probably deserves a footnote in this context, just a shame he was on the wrong side.

if I was to have to pick a German it would of been Heinz Wilhelm Guderian (17 June 1888 – 14 May 1954) He was a pioneer in the development of armored warfare, and was the leading proponent of tanks and mechanization in the Wehrmacht (German Armed Forces) Guderian surrendered to American troops on 10 May 1945 and remained in U.S. custody as a prisoner of war until his release on 17 June 1948. Despite Soviet and Polish government protests, he was not charged with any war crimes during the Nuremberg Trials, as his actions and behaviour were thought to be consistent with those of a professional soldier.

by Stox 16 Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:26 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Stox 16 wrote:
… Alexander the Great was the greatest war commander, as his combined triumph over great numbers with valour and obsession with vision and almost madness as he marched and fought from Greece to India…

Alexander must be at or near the top. He was indeed an obsessed madman, and additionally quite depraved. Perhaps the depravity was inevitable, given that Aristotle was his personal tutor. In Alexander’s favor was the fact that he led from the front, the “spear point” of his personal cavalry.

Stox 16 wrote:
So who would you pick and why?

I would pick several.

The “less-sung” commander of RAF Fighter Command, Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding, whose courageous decision to withhold full Fighter Command resources to the battle of France (viva la Vichy France) and subsequent shepherding of scant RAF Fighter Command Spitfires and Hurricanes during the Batle of Britain, might very well have been the difference between victory over Hitler’s Nazi Germany and Tojo’s inhumane Empire of Japan and defeat of Britain, and thus the world, and the 21st century world in which German and Japanese would be compulsory second languages that we might better understand the commands of our masters.

Also for the same reason, two heroes of the US Navy Pacific carrier campaign, Chester Nimitz and William Halsey (“When we’re through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell”, Vice Admiral William Halsey, Pearl, 8 December 1941), two of but nine American five star commanders in history, are near the top of the list for their relentless pursuance of the naval, air, and ground forces of the Empire of Japan through innovative and still used tactics of carrier power projection. It was a new type of war, with new rules being written battle by battle, and Nimitz and Halsey rose to the challenge.

I agree but do not know that much about them

Alexander must be at or near the top. He was indeed an obsessed madman, and additionally quite depraved. Perhaps the depravity was inevitable, given that Aristotle was his personal tutor. In Alexander’s favor was the fact that he led from the front, the “spear point” of his personal cavalry. For me, The Battle of Issus was the sign that he was a true genius. it occurred in southern Anatolia, in November 333 BC. The invading troops led by Alexander, were outnumbered more than 2:1, defeated the army personally led by Darius III of Achaemenid Persia.The battle was a decisive Macedonian victory and it marked the beginning of the end of Persian power. for me Darius did everything right in this battle yet still lost. very few people will ever come face to face with a true genius in battle. that was poor old Darius only true mistake.

HUGH Dowding was known for his humility and intense sincerity. Fighter Command pilots came to characterise Dowding as one who cared for his men and had their best interests at heart. Dowding often referred to his "dear fighter boys" as his "chicks". Indeed his son Derek was one of them: He was a pilot in 74 Squadron. Because of his brilliant detailed preparation of Britain's air defences for the German assault, and his prudent management of his resources during the battle, Dowding is today generally given the credit for Britain's victory in the Battle of Britain. Dowding was also a great commander with a good insight into what was needed to win. What is interesting for me is that like Alexander he know what was needed in the middle of a battle when outnumbered. both can be seen as great inspirational leaders in battle.

by Stox 16 Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:27 am

Shirina wrote:Sun Tsu ... simple as that. Everything today is modeled after Sun Tsu's tactics, and those who have failed to follow his tactics have always lost, those who followed his tactics have always won (generally speaking), even if the commanders in question weren't aware that Sun Tsu was the originator of their tactics.

Something to read about, as I do not know this at all

by wyouser Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:58 pm

One should place Ghengis Kahn somewhere near the top. He created, I believe, the largest empire ever to exist. Only his death prevented his forces from overrunning Europe and the rest of the muslim world as well. (they had reached Bagdad and as far as Leipzig when he died) HIs forces withdrew to MOngolia to elect a new Kahn and never returned

by Guest Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:59 am

Not one, but many: The USN silent service commanders of WWII.

by trevorw2539 Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:28 pm

Who, in your opinion, was the greatest commander in history, and why? Empty

quote Stox16

Alexander must be at or near the top. He was indeed an obsessed madman, and additionally quite depraved. Perhaps the depravity was inevitable, given that Aristotle was his personal tutor.

??????????????? Could you explain please. There are many legends and myths, mainly spread by the Epicureans who were well known for spreading rumours. I would be interested for information if it is no trouble, please.

by Guest Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:10 am

Socrates was a pedophile, according to Plato's account of Socrates' behavior at a feast with fellow philosophers (which I read as a freshman undergrad). Plato was Socrates' disciple, Aristotle was Plato's disciple, and Alexander was Aristotle's disciple.

by trevorw2539 Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:21 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Socrates was a pedophile, according to Plato's account of Socrates' behavior at a feast with fellow philosophers (which I read as a freshman undergrad). Plato was Socrates' disciple, Aristotle was Plato's disciple, and Alexander was Aristotle's disciple.

And that makes Alexander depraved?

by oftenwrong Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:54 pm

The Greatest Commander in his own opinion was undoubtedly General Douglas MacArthur.

In 1930, he became Chief of Staff of the United States Army, but retired from the U.S. Army in 1937 to become Military Advisor to the Commonwealth Government of the Philippines.

MacArthur was recalled to active duty in 1941 as commander of U.S. Army Forces Far East. A series of disasters followed, starting with the destruction of his air force on 8 December 1941, and the invasion of the Philippines by the Japanese. MacArthur's forces were soon compelled to withdraw to Bataan, where they held out until May 1942. In March 1942, MacArthur, his family and his staff left Corregidor Island in PT boats and escaped to Australia, where MacArthur became Supreme Commander, Southwest Pacific Area. For his defense of the Philippines, MacArthur was awarded the Medal of Honor. After more than two years of fighting in the Pacific, he fulfilled a promise to return to the Philippines. He officially accepted Japan's surrender on 2 September 1945, and oversaw the occupation of Japan from 1945 to 1951.

Then he decided to tell US President Harry S Truman where he was going wrong.

by Guest Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:55 pm

Trevor,

By definition, a disciple models her/his life after that of her/his master/mentor. Socrates the pedophile > Plato > Aristotle > Alexander. Conclude what you will, and know that I read Plato's account of Socrates' pedophile behavior.

by astra Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:13 pm

pedophile behavior

Boys and girls have been used as sex slaves down the mists of time. Indeed are STILL being used as such in Middle East and Far East countries today!

Catamites are talked of in early Roman writings, Vatican, Druid, Egyptian and many other cultures.

No use pointing the finger at one person so long dead when the accusation could fly at so many Rulers who turn a blind eye now to this abomination!

by Guest Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:43 pm

Astra,

The question is about Alexander. His "line" begins with Socrates the pedophile. That's the only reason I mention the overrated buffoon. I wasn't enamored of the despicable dirty old man then, and I'm not particularly enamored now.

by trevorw2539 Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:21 pm

by RockOnBrother Today at 8:43 pm

Astra,

The question is about Alexander. His "line" begins with Socrates the pedophile. That's the only reason I mention the overrated buffoon. I wasn't enamored of the despicable dirty old man then, and I'm not particularly enamored now.

The logic of that argument defeats me.

What you are saying is that the teacher of your teacher of your teacher of your teacher was a paedophile so that makes you one?
Are you of the original teachers 'line'.
Regardless of the personal tuition of these people, to regard someone as a Paedophile because his three times removed 'Tutor' was is taking things a bit far surely.

by Guest Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:54 am

Nope. I'm saying Plato was a disciple of Socrates (a pedophile according to Plato), Aristotle was a disciple of Plato, and Alexander was a disciple of Aristotle. Those are facts as I know them. One can come to one's own conclusion. I came to my conclusion awhile back.

by Chivnail Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:09 pm

Erm. I'll give Tian Dan a mention, because when in doubt (or when besieged in a city and facing the possible destruction of your country)... dress your soldiers up as monsters, strap blades to the horns of some oxen and tie flaming reeds to their tails, and charge.

Wiping out the invading army and then recapturing scores of cities in quick succession allegedly resulted.

Granted, I'm not sure how big a part he may have played in losing those cities in the first place, but, to be honest, I just wanted to move away from the historic kiddy-fiddling debate Razz

by Adele Carlyon Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:35 pm

astra wrote:
pedophile behavior

Boys and girls have been used as sex slaves down the mists of time. Indeed are STILL being used as such in Middle East and Far East countries today!

They're still being used in exactly the same way in the uk. Look no further than scotland and the shameful case of poor Hollie Greig. Please google Hollie Greig and Robert Green, it's a real eye opener. And then throw in the secret family courts as well and you have a paedophiles charter. I'm afraid our children are being stolen for the amusment of high ranking paedophile gangs. It makes me sick that no one in power seems to want to speak up about it!

by oftenwrong Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:25 pm

SHOCK NEWS!

".... no one in power seems to want to speak up about it! "

by Adele Carlyon Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:30 pm

Yeah, I know it's no shock! It's still a total disgrace though! How can anyone think it's ok to rape and abuse children?

by tlttf Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:35 pm

Wellington, arguably Napoleon, Montgomery. Not sure if any of them were paedophiles but I'm assuming it wouldn't rule them out of the ratings?

by sickchip Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:45 pm

Ghandi

by trevorw2539 Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:28 pm

Ashur-nasir-pal II (transliteration: Aššur-nāṣir-apli, meaning "Ashur is guardian of the heir"[1]) was king of Assyria from 883 to 859 BC.

Ashurnasirpal II succeeded his father, Tukulti-Ninurta II, in 883 BC. During his reign he embarked on a vast program of expansion, first conquering the peoples to the north in Asia Minor as far as Nairi and exacting tribute from Phrygia, then invading Aram (modern Syria) conquering the Aramaeans and neo Hittites between the Khabur and the Euphrates Rivers. His harshness prompted a revolt that he crushed decisively in a pitched, two-day battle. According to his monument inscription while recalling this massacre he says "their men young and old I took prisoners. Of some I cut off their feet and hands; of others I cut off the ears noses and lips; of the young men's ears I made a heap; of the old men's heads I made a marinet. I exposed their heads as a trophy in front of their city. The male children and the female children I burned in flames; the city I destroyed, and consumed with fire." Following this victory, he advanced without opposition as far as the Mediterranean and exacted tribute from Phoenicia. On his return back home he moved his capital to the city of Kalhu (Nimrud).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashurnasirpal_II

As Mr Punch would say 'That's the way to do it'. Shocked

by oftenwrong Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:41 pm

The more that things change, the more they are the same.

by Mel Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:29 am

Napoleon without doubt. Defeated only by the weather-- cannon in mud.

Rommel comes close.

by oftenwrong Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:22 am

The soldier with the greatest appreciation of how War should be conducted was Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz.

Most people have heard of his description of it as "Politik by other means."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Clausewitz

by Guest Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:21 pm

Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage is an excellent book, consisting of true stories about those whose voices remain as silent as the service in which they accomplished their heroic deeds.

Among these skippers are some of the finest military commanders unknown to mankind in general. Serving during the Cold War in the United States Navy, these unheralded military geniuses might be among the primary architects of our ultimate victory therein. And not a “shot” fired.

by oftenwrong Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:14 am

There seems to be an unjustified public revulsion for the submarine service, because of the "sneaky" way they lurk underwater unseen until sinking a merchant ship as widely depicted in WW2 newsreels. In Britain there has also been an unfair reluctance to regard bomber pilots as heroes, because of the civilian casualties.

Attitudes are presumably influenced by the legend of Camelot, with its chivalrous Knights, supported by later tales of "The Few" who defended our shores during the Battle of Britain. They only shot the enemy one at a time, in a more gentlemanly manner.

by Mel Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:01 pm

Wellington thought himself a "gentleman" and yet used his "scum and scoundrels" (his soldiers) "the lower order" for cannon fodder.

Hes said that Napolion was "no gentleman". A typical Tory bastard who could only defeat Naplolion's army without the good fortune of bad weather and the eleventh hour unexpected arival of the Austrians upon the battle scene.

A far cry from Hiroshima and Nagasaki eh OW?

by trevorw2539 Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:19 pm

Mel quote. and the eleventh hour unexpected arival of the Austrians upon the battle scene.

While the Prussians suffered a setback in one battle they reformed and held themselves ready - somewhere - for action where needed. If, and this is from memory, Wellington needed help, Blucher was ready. They were in communication most of this time. Wellington needed help as he was only just holding out, and Bluchers' Prussians came.

We tend to forget that other nations were involved too.

It really depends on the account you read, or on the unreliability of the film you see. Shocked

Notes for 3 November 1831.

The French system of conscription brings together a fair sample of all classes; ours is composed of the scum of the earth — the mere scum of the earth. It is only wonderful that we should be able to make so much out of them afterwards.

Speaking about soldiers in the British Army, 4 November 1831
A French army is composed very differently from ours. The conscription calls out a share of every class — no matter whether your son or my son — all must march; but our friends — I may say it in this room — are the very scum of the earth. People talk of their enlisting from their fine military feeling — all stuff — no such thing. Some of our men enlist from having got bastard children — some for minor offences — many more for drink; but you can hardly conceive such a set brought together, and it really is wonderful that we should have made them the fine fellows they are

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arthur_Wellesley,_1st_Duke_of_Wellington

by oftenwrong Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:23 pm

In today's news reports of the Queen's visit to Belfast, Martin McGuiness is described as a Commander of the IRA.

Does that qualify him for a place in this thread?

by Mel Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:24 pm

trevor I stand corrected, thank you.

Indeed it was the Prussions who re-grouped having been whipped by Napolion's army and Blulchers Prussions came, fortunately for Wellington.

by Mel Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:26 pm

"Does that qualify him for a place in this thread?"

I tink so to be sure surrr!! Smile

by trevorw2539 Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:49 pm

Mel wrote:trevor I stand corrected, thank you.

Indeed it was the Prussions who re-grouped having been whipped by Napolion's army and Blulchers Prussions came, fortunately for Wellington.

Mel. I ought to know. I am Napoleon. Ooops here comes nurse with my tablets. See you tomorrow Wellington. Wink

by oftenwrong Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:56 pm

Definition: commander

Part of Speech Noun

1. An officer in command of a military unit.[Wordnet]
2. Someone in an official position of authority who can command or control others.[Wordnet]
3. A commissioned naval officer who ranks above a lieutenant commander and below a captain.[Wordnet]
4. An officer in the airforce.[Wordnet]
5. A chief; one who has supreme authority; a leader; the chief officer of an army, or of any division of it.[Websters]
6. An officer who ranks next below a captain, -- ranking with a lieutenant colonel in the army.[Websters]

The earliest known occurrence in English literature of the word "Commander" was in 1258.

There must have been more people worthy of the title in 750 years than are recorded on this thread.

by trevorw2539 Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:51 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
Mel wrote:trevor I stand corrected, thank you.

Indeed it was the Prussions who re-grouped having been whipped by Napolion's army and Blulchers Prussions came, fortunately for Wellington.

Mel. I ought to know. I am Napoleon. Ooops here comes nurse with my tablets. See you tomorrow Wellington.

I have just had a pang of conscience. I apologise for my above remarks if I have given offense to anyone who may suffer from, or has relatives suffering from, mental illness. It was not intentional. Embarassed

by betty.noire Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:11 pm

What is also often overlooked is the German (Hannoverians) composition of the "British" forces and also the Dutch and Belgian forces.

Only about 50% of Wellingtons troops were British

by astra Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:20 pm

Lord Lovat

coz 'e' was a bit of a lad!

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