Does any religion matter at all today?

by Stox 16 Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:35 am

First topic message reminder :

I will be interested to read peoples thoughts on this question. Does any Religion matter at all today?

I cannot see that any religious church's or anything religious even matters today at all. The only true religion I have ever come across is, Money, Political Power, Land, and greed. all the things we are told they are against, this goes for all religions too in my view.

in fact all the faiths I have come across use all of the tools of money, political power, Land and greed to re-force there religious views on there followers. i have never come across any religion that does not use at least one of this tools to enforce there religious views on the people they are said to be looking after.

I have read over the years all the religious books i can find, and have yet too be moved by any of them. some have very good stories that have something in them for every reader. but their it ends for me. maybe someone can explain why any of this is so important today? as i cannot find anything within the books that states this is very important today or in the past. I myself have come to believe that religion has more to do with the thought of death or dying and the human need to believe that life goes on after death.

However, when we was all born we did not feel pain or come into being with some religious thought in our heads or a book in our hands did we? in fact we had know idea about religion at all? so only find out what religion we are when someone tells us that this is our religion? yet you would think we would all know this already if there was a god? So we only find out what our religion is after birth? or do you believe you know what you religion was before birth? (i did not) if someone told me i was a follower of Islam, I would of said OK at five years old. in fact they could of given me any religion and i would of said fine.

So religion seems to me, religion only matters a get deal more the older you get? so I am told, well if so its failing on me badly. so anyway, it matter more as you get closer to death then? so is this more to do with our human need for life to go on somehow? as we find it hard to believe that life comes to an end and we go into darkness of no mans land? just like before we was born?

I was told at about 6 years old by my mother that this was my faith. but in total truth my mother could of said any faith was my religion and i would of gone along with what she said. To me that was it, Its that simple then. i did not then think about anything religious till i was in the Army in standing in a street in the middle of green line in a war zone in the Lebanon. with both Christains killing, Muslims Killing, Catholic Maronite's Killing, Druze faith Killing, Jewish killing. at first wondering why they was all doing this? not for religion or faith but power and using religion to justify there actions. I remember thinking. just suppose these people had been given a different religion by there mothers. they would instead of killing as a Maronite gunman they would of been killing Maronite's as a Druze gunman?

So your religion is picked for you in my view and some even change it too. yet you would think if you know your god at your death. you should know who you god is before birth? but we do not. So does any of this really matter any more?

well i well be interrested to read your thought on this. its not about any one religion but all of them.

by snowyflake Sun May 19, 2013 9:54 am

We've all had an epiphany on this issue hence our different stances. And I was a seasoned adult when I concluded that God probably does not exist and I live my life accordingly. My morals didn't change one iota between my Christianity and my atheism except I found the freedom to love and make no judgement of all people regardless of their sexual orientation or religion or race. God was not present before and his absence after didn't make a bit of difference. So what did I need belief for in my life? None of the scientific evidence tallied with the existence of God or any god. But now this life is all there is and I must live it as best I can with love for all my fellow humans. No reward or punishment at the end of my life. I'll die hopefully having loved and lived fully. That sits well with me. Smile

by snowyflake Sun May 19, 2013 10:01 am

Those are very kind words, Rock. And for my part, I enjoy it much more when you talk like this rather than all the guff you put on the forum that just looks like a wall of words keeping others from knowing you and worse keeps others from knowing why you believe as you do.

by Guest Sun May 19, 2013 1:31 pm

These are words from my heart, Snowy. Maybe you now get a little of it.

Communicating to you why I believe and know that which I believe and know is the sole reason for what you call “gruff.” Except for you, I wouldn’t care.

There are only five people besides me that have regularly posted on these threads (about four) in recent months.

One person started denigrating your character, intelligence, and educational training, skills, and credentials several months ago. I could give less than a flip about this person. It is only because you asked me to back off that I haven’t said more.

Trevor is a wealth of knowledge, scholar whose insights rival those of a friend that holds two Ph.D.’s in this field. When he posts, his content is often ignored, and I mourn for that reason.

Another person warned me straight up six or seven months ago that this parson’s input from here on out would no longer be the scholarly input to which I had become accustomed. That has happened as I was warned it would happen, and I mourn for that.

Another person whose intellectual prowess is sky-high seems unwilling to listen to me or anyone else with whom this person disagrees. I mourn for that.

And then there is you. I so much want you to understand what and why I believe and know beyond my ability to put in words. That hasn’t happened; in fact, that seems to be un-happening. Not only do I mourn for that, I hurt like hell because of that.

I hope you hear these words: Since communicating what and why to you hasn’t happened, I’ve now given up trying.

by snowyflake Sun May 19, 2013 2:40 pm

Thank you Rock for your honesty. I want to hear you but I don't want to be preached at or lectured to. This is what I like. An open, honest discussion. How can anyone gain an understanding of another person if you are not talking with them?

Communicating to you why I believe and know that which I believe and know is the sole reason for what you call “gruff.”

You lose people from the sheer volume of words and references. You might actually say something useful and important but it gets lost in the post because no one is reading it. They don't read the entire post and just think it's more of the same. If you want people to hear you, you have to talk with them not at them.

I hope you hear these words: Since communicating what and why to you hasn’t happened, I’ve now given up trying.

I'm sorry for that. But maybe now we can have a discussion that is based on mutual respect. If you have learned something that rings true to you and you share it here, and others don't agree, a healthy discussion can arise. At the moment, we've reduced the discussion is an argument and frankly, I'm tired of that. Shirina, Tosh, Trevor and yourself are, in my opinion, brilliant and I have learned a lot from all of you. You all say things that inspire me to investigate things I've never even heard of. And WOW there is so much I don't know.

I appreciate you and your input here but we would go further I think, without all the repetition. At your heart, I believe you are a good man with something worthwhile to say. And this forum would be less without you.

by Guest Sun May 19, 2013 7:45 pm

I am painfully aware of the “sound bite” mentality which now permeates our English-speaking society in the US, Canada, the UK, and even Down Under. Perhaps Rupert Murdoch rules the world at large as he rules the world’s English-speaking newspapers and television stations.

I write as I think and speak. When writing about what I believe and know, I attempt to encapsulate within a few paragraphs things earned over the decades that I have struggled to comprehend, analyzed, contemplated deeply, wrestled with, etc. for decades. It takes more than a few quips to communicate to even scantly communicate this to another person.

One epiphany of which I am now thinking took at least five years to “break” such that I “got it.” During that five or more years, a friend and I regularly discussed, discoursed upon, and disagreed with each other about just this one thing. How could I ever get this thing across to you or anyone else in a Rupert Murdoch sound bite?

Argumentative debates have never led to truth. I’ve judged debates. Nothing on the judges’ scoring rubric says “degree of truthfulness.” No points are allowed for expositing truth. It’s a game, one which I play well when motivated. I once debated myself into a round-trip coast-to-coast airline ticket and expense allowance. No truth was revealed in that exercise; I just got what I wanted.

As I said, I’ve given up trying, at least on Cutting Edge’s religious threads. I posted several quotes from astrophysicists and astronomers to “test the waters”, to see if anyone would actually listen to some of the greatest minds in recent history regarding what their studies have led them to conclude about the origin of everything. No one listened. I folks won’t listen to Nobel laureates in the field and the man who proved Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity correct in the face of concerted pro-Newtonian physics opposition, then folks won’t listen to RockOnBrother, just a one-time fairly decent undergrad physics student and now a fairly decent armchair aficionado. So I’m done here for now, at least on these Cutting Edge religion threads. I’m not particularly religious, anyway, and defending religion is not my “shtick”, so I’ll leave it to those who relish such stuff.

Very quickly, I witnessed a religious debate between members of two religious groups that both (1) professed to be Christians, and (2) professed that the other guy was not a Christian. Biggest waste of time in my life. The folks in my group were congratulating each other on defeating the other guy like it was an NBA Championship Series game or something. Proof-texting all over the place on both sides. I hated it then, and I hate it now.

Perhaps at another “place” you and I can resume communicating. I wish that very much.

by snowyflake Sun May 19, 2013 8:43 pm

I don't think anyone was asking for sound bites, Rock. I think we just wanted an honest discussion without all the other stuff. You were quoting scientists with quotes from a Christian website. If you had chosen a neutral website or a book, one without a religious agenda, I think people would have listened but you chose to pick quotes from a Christian website. I know I'm not the only one to give those sites a wide berth due to their unmitigated bias.

For someone who is not 'particularly religious' you fight awfully hard for your corner.

Anyway, perhaps the discussion will continue without us then. I wish you happiness, health and peace. Take care of yourself.

by trevorw2539 Sun May 19, 2013 9:13 pm

'Argumentative debates have never led to truth.'

A truer word was never said.

by Shirina Sun May 19, 2013 9:30 pm

I'm not a soundbite person and the majority of my posts bear that out. It is also the reason why I never bothered getting a Twitter account and why my Facebook account has sat dormant for a very long time. I feel little more than contempt for a soundbite society - a society in which the art of writing has been lost so that now people feel the need to literally abbreviate three-letter words. I came to the West knowing only a handful of English phrases and proceeded to bust my ass learning not just English out of a textbook, but understanding the nuances of the language - the ability to read between the lines, understanding slang, colloquialisms, metaphors, similes, and to amass a solid vocabulary.

And for what, I wonder?

I find myself sitting here with a mountain of things I'd like to say, but I'm not going to bother. Given that my life is about to implode anyway, nothing really matters at this point, anyhow, and my words just feel like a big waste of time. I don't have much motivation. Six months ago I was participating on six different forums. Now I only log in here, and even posting here seems like an exercise in futility for a variety of reasons.

I used to receive a lot of my socialization on message boards, and all too often, I let my so-called faith in my fellow Man take me for a ride. Yet invariably all I have received for my trust is a back full of daggers. Then people wonder why I don't let them "in." What happened on the Crap forum was the final lesson, one that I will never need to be taught again.

So perhaps, given the situation developing here, it is simply time to hang up my spurs for good.

I can still be admin here without posting.

Yeah, screw it, I'm done.

by trevorw2539 Sun May 19, 2013 9:47 pm

Shirina wrote:I'm not a soundbite person and the majority of my posts bear that out. It is also the reason why I never bothered getting a Twitter account and why my Facebook account has sat dormant for a very long time. I feel little more than contempt for a soundbite society - a society in which the art of writing has been lost so that now people feel the need to literally abbreviate three-letter words. I came to the West knowing only a handful of English phrases and proceeded to bust my ass learning not just English out of a textbook, but understanding the nuances of the language - the ability to read between the lines, understanding slang, colloquialisms, metaphors, similes, and to amass a solid vocabulary.

And for what, I wonder?

I find myself sitting here with a mountain of things I'd like to say, but I'm not going to bother. Given that my life is about to implode anyway, nothing really matters at this point, anyhow, and my words just feel like a big waste of time. I don't have much motivation. Six months ago I was participating on six different forums. Now I only log in here, and even posting here seems like an exercise in futility for a variety of reasons.

I used to receive a lot of my socialization on message boards, and all too often, I let my so-called faith in my fellow Man take me for a ride. Yet invariably all I have received for my trust is a back full of daggers. Then people wonder why I don't let them "in." What happened on the Crap forum was the final lesson, one that I will never need to be taught again.

So perhaps, given the situation developing here, it is simply time to hang up my spurs for good.

I can still be admin here without posting.

Yeah, screw it, I'm done.

That's a shame. I don't often post on here but I do read this 'religious' thread. I've always found your posts interesting and informative.
I respect ROC's knowledge but didn't always agree with him.
Anyway. Goodluck.

by Guest Sun May 19, 2013 10:22 pm

I quoted astrophysicists and astronomers that study the origin of everything from whatever websites their quotes are found on the Internet. I was aware of the content of many of these quotes as early as 1966, long before any websites existed. The quotes are accurate; in other words, the astrophysicists and astronomers said what they are quoted as saying.

by oftenwrong Sun May 19, 2013 10:25 pm

mmhmm wrote:Why does any of this matter a hill of beans? The arguments go on for page, after page, after page. Repetitions are legion. Yet, nobody changes their mind on the subject being argued. Those who believe in God will continue to believe in God. Those who do not will continue not to believe. Those who aren't really sure, one way or the other, will continue to be unsure.

It's not as though anyone here is so green and callow as to have come to their stance on this issue without due diligence. We've all heard the various arguments innumerable times. Have any of you seen any seasoned adult suddenly come to an epiphany on this issue? I haven't.

Forgive an easy assumption, but isn't the entire purpose of religious discussion to argue about things which cannot be resolved?

by mmhmm Sun May 19, 2013 11:42 pm

Yes, oftenwrong, it is, IMO. That's why I often find myself wondering at its persistence. It's the never-ending merry-go-round of arguments; yet, people continue to pursue the unattainable. Wink

by Shirina Mon May 20, 2013 12:04 am

It's the never-ending merry-go-round of arguments; yet, people continue to pursue the unattainable.

You assume the motive for religious debates is to change minds. Perhaps that is true for some, but I do not count myself among them. I enjoy debating controversial subjects for three reasons.

1) It exercises my brain
2) It keeps my mind off things I'd rather not think about
3) Standard small talk (kids, spouse, home improvement, career) is beyond me.

That's all there is to it.

by mmhmm Mon May 20, 2013 4:35 am

Nah. I wasn't assuming anything as it might pertain to individuals. I was speaking strictly collectively, Shirina. I'm not one for everyday chit-chat, either. That said, religious back-and-forth bickering doesn't speak to me, either.

I can easily understand trying to keep one's mind occupied and the boogie man out, though. Wink

by trevorw2539 Mon May 20, 2013 11:06 am

Shirina wrote:
It's the never-ending merry-go-round of arguments; yet, people continue to pursue the unattainable.

You assume the motive for religious debates is to change minds. Perhaps that is true for some, but I do not count myself among them. I enjoy debating controversial subjects for three reasons.

1) It exercises my brain
2) It keeps my mind off things I'd rather not think about
3) Standard small talk (kids, spouse, home improvement, career) is beyond me.

That's all there is to it.

In my experience religious debate seldom changes anyone's mind. Rather the opposite. An understanding of each others position is usually the best that can be achieved. Unfortunately it often descends into acrimony.

by polyglide Mon May 20, 2013 1:21 pm

You ask for me to admit that God is a figment of my imagination, when in fact it is based on far more sounder ground than your idea that life came about by pure chance.

Then you are more stupid than your posts indicate.

The fact that life cannot have come about by chance has been proven by sevral means accepted by those with the necessay qualifications to make the assumption.

I believe 100% that God created life.

Now you prove that he did not.

by Guest Mon May 20, 2013 1:45 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
In my experience religious debate seldom changes anyone's mind. Rather the opposite. An understanding of each others position is usually the best that can be achieved. Unfortunately it often descends into acrimony.

Even truer words. In my experience, understanding one another’s positions leads to the betterment of all parties, assuming that each participant is an ethical, moral person. Four Muslims with whom I participated in weekly study sessions for nearly a year, one quiet, peaceful Muslims with whom I participated in twice weekly deep discourse for nearly a year, two Baha’is with whom I from time to time informally discussed a faith that blew me away for four years, and two Jews, one Conservative Jew and one Reform Jew, with whom I have studied in person and over long-distance telephone for almost two decades, have bettered me by honoring me with their teachings.

by Guest Mon May 20, 2013 9:55 pm

Here’s a b*****d sunavab****h that uses children to kill in the name of his own religious admixture of “Christianity” and traditional religion.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t834-whos-there-for-the-children-being-used-as-cannon-fodder-in-joseph-konys-lords-resistance-army#40881

This evil piece of let over human DNA needs to be drug through the mud from one end of Africa to the other, shipped across the Med and drug through the mud from one end of Eurasia to the other, shipped down under and drug through them und from one end of Australia to the other, shipped across the South Pacific and drug through the mud and frozen tundra from Tierra del Fuego to Baffin Island, and then dropped on the Arctic ice for Polar Bear feed.

by Shirina Tue May 21, 2013 2:15 pm

I believe 100% that God created life.

Oh, you BELIEVE 100% that God created life.

Which means maybe he didn't.

Case closed.

by polyglide Tue May 21, 2013 2:42 pm

What utter nonsense, as usual.

The same stupid response could be made on any given subject.

I believe 100% that God created life, there is no ifs and buts so far as Iam concerned, the doubt lies with people like you.

I have asked you to prove God does not exist and on what grounds and as usual you do not understand a question, you make up your own, along with a nonsensicle answer.

by Shirina Tue May 21, 2013 3:13 pm

I have asked you to prove God does not exist and on what grounds

I've told you hundreds of times - it's because THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that God exists.

That's why religious belief is called FAITH.

Prove that God doesn't exist? That's not my job. The burden of proof is on YOU.

You have yet to provide any EVIDENCE that God exists. Yes, you BELIEVE 100% that God created life. That's peachy ... but your BELIEF does not equate to truth.

That's why it is called a BELIEF.

you make up your own, along with a nonsensicle answer.

See this plane?
Does any religion matter at all today? - Page 21 Airbus-corp-jetliner_2

My point is on board, and it's currently flying right over your head.

by Guest Tue May 21, 2013 5:35 pm

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40935

… THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that God exists.

Astronomer George Greenstein seems to disagree.

George Greenstein
(astronomer)
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

http://www.y-origins.com/index.php?p=quotes

by oftenwrong Tue May 21, 2013 7:46 pm

Will George survive?

or will the sheer weight of the discovery destroy him ??

Watch the next episode of Supreme Being - the Cosmos Years!

© John W Campbell's Astounding Science Fiction magazine, 1939 to 1960

by Shirina Tue May 21, 2013 8:44 pm

Astronomer George Greenstein seems to disagree.

Yes, he does, but he's wrong. Oh, I know ... how dare someone like me criticize a preeminant astronomer, but I was never a big fan of fallacies - including the "appeal to authority" fallacy.

The reason why he's wrong can be explained with rather simple logic. In fact, I've addressed this before (and no one really listens as per usual).

Humanity is just arrogant enough to believe in the idea that the ENTIRE universe was fine-tuned just for us. Yeah, we're THAT important!

First of all, such a notion discounts the very real probability of non-human intelligent life elsewhere. Perhaps it was finely tuned for them and we're just an accidental byproduct. Or, more likely, the universe was finely tuned for bacteria since they seem to exist just about everywhere.

Of course, that all assumes the universe was finely tuned to begin with.

The second problem is that the kind of life that develops in any particular universe is determined by the universe. Think of it as the cosmic climate. Here on earth, we do not have penguins in the Sahara or camels in antarctica. Where a species develops and thrives depends upon the climate. Humans are simply one possible type of life that does well in this particlar cosmic climate. If the universe had been slightly different, another type of life could be sitting around thinking the universe was tailor-made for them and humans wouldn't exist. Just because humans won the lottery doesn't mean we're special or that everything is here to facilitate our existence. Even here on earth, life is harsh for the majority of people - natural disasters, climate changes, famines, draughts, diseases, UV rays, on and on. There's no evidence that even our planet, much less the universe, was finely tuned for US except in the eyes of those who still seek purpose for everything.

Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?

"For our benefit?" No. That would be like one mold spore telling his buddy, "Isn't it great that a human bought this loaf of bread so we can grow on it?" Is that why someone bought a loaf of bread? To grow mold spores? Probably not.

by Guest Tue May 21, 2013 9:33 pm

Shirina wrote:
Astronomer George Greenstein seems to disagree.
Yes, he does, but he's wrong.

You’ve stated as fact, “he’s wrong”; thus, the burden of proof is on you to support your statement of fact that he’s wrong with compelling evidence of his wrongfulness.

You have failed to provide such compelling evidence.

by Guest Tue May 21, 2013 10:01 pm

Shirina wrote:
Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?
"For our benefit?" No.

You’ve stated as fact, “No”; thus, the burden of proof is on you to support your statement of fact that the answer to the question is “No” with compelling evidence that “No” is in fact the factual answer.

You have failed to provide such compelling evidence.

by Shirina Tue May 21, 2013 10:30 pm

I clearly stated why he is wrong.

by Guest Tue May 21, 2013 11:33 pm

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40935

… THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that God exists.

RockOnBrother wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40938

Astronomer George Greenstein seems to disagree.

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40955

Yes, he does, but he's wrong.

RockOnBrother wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40961

You’ve stated as fact, “he’s wrong”; thus, the burden of proof is on you to support your statement of fact that he’s wrong with compelling evidence of his wrongfulness.

You have failed to provide such compelling evidence.

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40955

Humanity is just arrogant enough to believe in the idea that the ENTIRE universe was fine-tuned just for us. Yeah, we're THAT important!

Just because humans won the lottery doesn't mean we're special or that everything is here to facilitate our existence.

These are opinions, which provides no compelling evidence that your statement, “he’s wrong”, stated as fact, is fact.

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40955

… such a notion discounts the very real probability of non-human intelligent life elsewhere.

Perhaps it was finely tuned for them and we're just an accidental byproduct.

Or, more likely, the universe was finely tuned for bacteria since they seem to exist just about everywhere.

These are speculations, which provides no compelling evidence that your statement, “he’s wrong”, stated as fact, is fact.

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40955

The second problem is that the kind of life that develops in any particular universe is determined by the universe. Think of it as the cosmic climate. Here on earth, we do not have penguins in the Sahara or camels in antarctica. Where a species develops and thrives depends upon the climate. Humans are simply one possible type of life that does well in this particlar cosmic climate.

If the universe had been slightly different, another type of life could be sitting around thinking the universe was tailor-made for them and humans wouldn't exist.

These are hypotheses, which provides no compelling evidence that your statement, “he’s wrong”, state as fact, is fact.

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40955

There's no evidence that even our planet, much less the universe, was finely tuned for US…

George Greenstein
(astronomer)
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

http://www.y-origins.com/index.php?p=quotes

As can be clearly seen by his statement, George Greenstein disagrees.

by Shirina Wed May 22, 2013 6:14 am

“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved.

"Supernatural agency."

His words.

Even the fact that he later said "Agency" (capital A) shows that he's trying to weasel God (i.e. the Biblical God) into the equation.

Yeah, I'm not fooled and I'm not buying it.

What's going on here is confirmation bias, a favorite pitfall of those who view the cosmos with a religious bent.

But let's get back to "supernatural agency." Why do we never learn? What is it about the human mind that causes people to repeatedly attribute supernatural explanations to that which we do not understand? We've been doing this for tens of thousands of years, always looking for the superstitious and the supernatural in our NATURAL world. How many supernatural explanations have been proven false through science? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Whatever the number, science has NEVER had to throw up its hands and say, "There's NO explanation so it must be God!" It has never happened, and there's absolutely NO reason to resort to a "supernatural agency" or "Agency" for an explanation we don't have yet.

I gave you several hypotheses which means even little ol' me can sit here in this chair and come up with equally viable explanations and reasons why the supernatural explanation is the LEAST likely. All of human history is weighted to MY side of the fence, and I doubt the existence of the universe will be that one singular anomaly that cannot be explained scientifically.

by Guest Wed May 22, 2013 6:48 am

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40955

There's no evidence¹ that even our planet, much less the universe, was finely tuned for US…

George Greenstein
(astronomer)
“As we survey all theevidence¹ , the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

http://www.y-origins.com/index.php?p=quotes

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#40973

“As we survey all the evidence¹, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved.
"Supernatural agency."

His words.

Even the fact that he later said "Agency" (capital A) shows that he's trying to weasel God (i.e. the Biblical God) into the equation.

Yeah, I'm not fooled and I'm not buying it.

What's going on here is confirmation bias, a favorite pitfall of those who view the cosmos with a religious bent.

But let's get back to "supernatural agency." Why do we never learn? What is it about the human mind that causes people to repeatedly attribute supernatural explanations to that which we do not understand? We've been doing this for tens of thousands of years, always looking for the superstitious and the supernatural in our NATURAL world. How many supernatural explanations have been proven false through science? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Whatever the number, science has NEVER had to throw up its hands and say, "There's NO explanation so it must be God!" It has never happened, and there's absolutely NO reason to resort to a "supernatural agency" or "Agency" for an explanation we don't have yet.

I gave you several hypotheses which means even little ol' me can sit here in this chair and come up with equally viable explanations and reasons why the supernatural explanation is the LEAST likely. All of human history is weighted to MY side of the fence, and I doubt the existence of the universe will be that one singular anomaly that cannot be explained scientifically.

Except for the George Greenstein quote, “As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved”, the word “evidence” is not found in your post of Wednesday 22 May 2013, 06:14.

You have failed to address the disagreement between you and George Greenstein as to the existence of evidence.

by Tosh Wed May 22, 2013 8:34 am

If someone says the regularity of the universe is evidence of design, then any irregularity in the universe is evidence they are wrong.

by polyglide Wed May 22, 2013 10:34 am

Shirina, there is no need to refute what you reply to on any question regarding God.

You have one answer that turns out to be a question.

Prove God exists.

There is 100% more proof that God exists than any other alternative. based on all Known evidence.

by Tosh Wed May 22, 2013 4:40 pm

There is 100% more proof that God exists than any other alternative. based on all Known evidence.

You are claiming everything is evidence God exists, this is unfortunate because if it cannot be tested then its just not evidence.

by Shirina Thu May 23, 2013 8:22 pm

based on all Known evidence.

You should have said, "...based on all unknown evidence" since you predicate your entire defense upon what we DON'T know.

by polyglide Fri May 24, 2013 10:50 am

If you started to base everything on what we actually do know then you would certainly come to other conclusions than those you usually post.

by Shirina Fri May 24, 2013 3:26 pm

If you started to base everything on what we actually do know then you would certainly come to other conclusions than those you usually post.

It is because of what we do know that has turned me away from these barmy Bronze Age stories and superstitions.

by Guest Fri May 24, 2013 4:44 pm

Shirina wrote:https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t276p840-does-any-religion-matter-at-all-today#41075
If you started to base everything on what we actually do know then you would certainly come to other conclusions than those you usually post.
It is because of what we do know that has turned me away from these barmy Bronze Age stories and superstitions.

It is because of what you do believe that has turned you away from “these barmy Bronze Age stories and superstitions”; thus, by “[turning] away from these barmy Bronze Age stories and superstitions”, you verify the fact that you are a believer.

by Tosh Fri May 24, 2013 7:56 pm

you verify the fact that you are a believer.

A believer in natural explanations is a naturalist or realist, not an atheist, an atheist has 3 definitions, the one above is not one of them.

Nice try.

by Shirina Sat May 25, 2013 6:39 am

It is because of what you do believe that has turned you away from “these barmy Bronze Age stories and superstitions”

Actually, no.

Even if there happens to be a creator, I am confident that it is NOT the God of Abraham or any other earthly gods that Man has invented. There is NO evidence. None. Zero. Zilch. Any evidence put forward by Christians that God exists is actually evidence (loosely stated) that a "creator" exists. At no time has ANYONE ever provided the slightest bit of evidence that the Bible is true, that Adam and Eve existed, that Noah crammed animals into a 500-foot ark, that Jonah was swallowed by a "big fish," that Jesus was resurrected, that God commanded Abraham to kill his son, or any of that. There is no reason to follow any particular religion and no reason to worship any particular god.

That IS irrefutable fact, and considering I have asked this question over and over without anyone anywhere giving an answer, I'll ask again ...

Even assuming there is a creator, why should I believe it is a specific creator at the head of a specific religion?

you verify the fact that you are a believer.

Okay, sure ... in the same way I believe there is no Santa, no tooth fairy, no Harry Potter, no Superman, and no microscopic purple kitten dancing on the tip of one of my hairs.

by polyglide Sat May 25, 2013 12:09 pm

Shiriina, have you ever considered the meaning of reality as opposed to supposition?

Your way in which to refute the truth is by negative response, at no time do you give an acceptable alternative.

To just simply say it is a fairy tail without any means of substantiating your posts is just showing a total lack of understanding.

by Shirina Sat May 25, 2013 2:21 pm

Shiriina, have you ever considered the meaning of reality as opposed to supposition?

Why does reality have to possess meaning? I know it's human nature to bring order to chaos which is why we see shapes in the clouds and the Virgin Mary on a piece of pizza, but that doesn't mean the reality we perceive is actually real. After all, clouds are not bunny rabbits and pepperoni is not the Virgin Mary.

We invent our own meaning, which is why religion is so popular. It is pre-packaged "meaning."

Your way in which to refute the truth is by negative response, at no time do you give an acceptable alternative.

Because there doesn't have to be one. Secular Humanism comes the closest.

To just simply say it is a fairy tail without any means of substantiating your posts is just showing a total lack of understanding.

If simple logic does not substantiate my posts, what would?

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