Is the minimum wage a living wage? If not, why not?

First topic message reminder :

It seems companies don't pay a living wage so the state tops it up with various benefits - this in effect boosts companies profits (government doling out our tax to their profiteer friends?). So just who are the real benefit leeches.....I would suggest the employers using the state to top up the meagre wages they pay - not the employee who has no choice but to claim these benefits in order to survive.

Therefore the benefits system is there to make companies, and the rich, richer!

Excellent post Steve and one that I agree with, e ven though I'm right of centre

Aspiration is the brake on Reform by people who regard themselves as upwardly mobile, reluctant to see a limit ever placed upon their own potential earning power.

287,000 UK jobs paid less than the minimum wage last year..

Report--- MSN today. So much for the masked employment figs.

The so-called "Captains of Industry", so ably represented by the Tory-led Coalition, wear a hard-hat to equal any other when making investment decisions. Their forward-plan MUST in most cases indicate a reasonable profit - otherwise it will never come into being. (R & D is an occasional exception to that rule). Many of Britain's industries are awash with cash right now, but their Directors cannot identify a sure-fire profitable investment. This weekend, the Royal Bank was complaining about having reserves of £20billion available to lend, but no suitable borrowers' applications.

Some Companies like to wear a sash that says "Investing in People" - but that's precisely what they are NOT doing because employing people can be an expensive business in a stagnant market.

Government needs to provide kick-start incentives but can't accomplish that under conditions of austerity, which even our cat understands.

The minimum wage in the UK vs other countries:



To kickstart the economy, increase wages for the low-paid. They'll spend it immediately.

But this government wants to abolish even our pathetic minimum wage.

The Government Front Bench, asked to say why there could not be an increase in the minimum wage replied, "But then there might not be enough for ourselves!"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/may/11/young-recession-cheap-labour

The prime minister's adviser on enterprise has told the cabinet that the economic downturn is an excellent time for new businesses to boost profits and grow because labour is cheap, the Observer can reveal.

Lord Young, a cabinet minister under the late Baroness Thatcher, who is the only aide with his own office in Downing Street, told ministers that the low wage levels in a recession made larger financial returns easier to achieve. His comments are contained in a report to be published this week, on which the cabinet was briefed last Tuesday.

I'm away for a cold shower before my blood boils over.

I suppose this at least demonstrates what the real agenda is.

The really aggravating part is that they don't even bother to lie or try to 'spin' this stuff - shows immense contempt for the electorate.

I was just about to post the same article chip. What does it tell us I ask? WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW!!!!

The Tories deliberately create unemployment for that very reason. Profit at any cost, especially to those of the "lower order".
They need to be horse whipped in public.

Indeed! They are basically saying exploiting cheap labour is a good thing to do.......if it means bigger profits.

Is it any wonder some Tory mp's want to get rid of the minimum wage?

Is it any wonder some Tory mp's want to get rid of the minimum wage?
.... along with Health & Safety laws, Employment Tribunals, Sick Pay, Holiday Pay, Maternity Leave, Work pensions, Contracts of service, Redundancy Pay and a minimum-notice period.

Excellent article here:

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/low-wages-not-benefits-holding-britain-down?commentpage=2

You don't reform benefits to make work pay. You reform wages. The minimum wage is not enough to live on, even leaving aside the rate of unemployment, the rate of under-employment – people who would like to work more hours but for some reason probably related to withholding their statutory rights are on zero- or four-hour contracts – and all those cannibalistic stunts that particularly large large employers,, in particular, have adopted. This is a profound drag on an economy trying to get out of recession. Reducing benefits won't help.


It's nice to see an article reflecting points I've been making for years........let's hope it becomes more widespread and makes a difference.

Sick, tried to open your link - either my machine is not working proper or it hasn't pasted properly.

The bit you've quoted is spot on - I see people every week who are trapped by low wages, seasonal employment patterns and zero hour contracts into a state of peverty that is shaming to us all.

Thanks for posting the link - I'll try and find the whole article elsewhere.

http://t.co/6mxOgXGLnT

Here it is again:)

The spiteful Tory scare-tactics appear to have been effective.  Many workers are now earning little more than they were ten years ago, but are frightened to risk their job by asking for an increase to cover the erosion of spending-power.

No wonder that the top-up benefits budgets are creaking at the seams.  The taxpayer is funding employers' profits.

OW,of course this is a typical Tory tactic. The government is allowing firms, especially the big ones to capitalise upon those who are terrified of losing their jobs (in particular the young.} Isn't it time the fat cats and the greedy do nothing investors share some of the huge takings which have become so huge that they virtualy brag about it?

Transfer wealth from the botton and the middle to the top. Tories have waited years for this opportunity to use the deficit IMO as an excuse to implement their dirty tricks.

I am angry at Gove as he is re-structuring the GCSE system to make it harder for thousands of children to aquire the levels needed to take A levels at further education. He is going a step further making things more difficult for those seeking A level grades for University entrances.
Here again IMO it is geared in favour of the rich children in private education so that competition is limited to fewer going  for the top jobs.

The government are pretending to help young couples in aquiring a newly built home, when in reality it is to assist the big building firms make a killing now, especially with all that cheap labour available to them.

OW,of course this is a typical Tory tactic. The government is allowing firms, especially the big ones to capitalise upon those who are terrified of losing their jobs (in particular the young.} Isn't it time the fat cats and the greedy do nothing investors share some of the huge takings which have become so huge that they virtualy brag about it?

Transfer wealth from the botton and the middle to the top. Tories have waited years for this opportunity to use the deficit IMO as an excuse to implement their dirty tricks.

I am angry at Gove as he is re-structuring the GCSE system to make it harder for thousands of children to aquire the levels needed to take A levels at further education. He is going a step further making things more difficult for those seeking A level grades for University entrances.
Here again IMO it is geared in favour of the rich children in private education so that competition is limited to fewer going  for the top jobs.

The government are pretending to help young couples in aquiring a newly built home, when in reality it is to assist the big building firms make a killing now, especially with all that cheap labour available to them.

Sorry about the double post. I am unable to remove it. "Administrators only" ????

Never mind - obvious error, I'm sure no-one will object.
Possibly even worth saying twice

boatlady - thanks for re-posting the link.

Don't mention - really worth the read - not a word I could disagree with

"You can fool some people all the time, and other people for some of the time ...."

Thank Heaven for outlets such as Cutting Edge for an opportunity to inform Government that not everybody is too stupid to see what they are up to.

"Thank Heaven for outlets such as Cutting Edge for an opportunity to inform Government that not everybody is too stupid to see what they are up to."

The problem IMO is that there are too many people out there apart from the stupid ones who just do not care about politics, are too busy trying to make ends meet working all hours and only get a very small picture of what the Tories are up to. The Daily Mail has a very big following especially by women for it's femanine content. The media and the press in general especially the BBC are being forced IMO to keep a lid on what is really going on with these Tory barstuards.

Added to all that there is the generation who never experinced the Thatcher nightmare.

There are more poor people than there are rich people, so the logical result of a General Election should normally be a disappointment to the wealthy.

But the constant drip of right-wing propaganda from the Press every day must influence those who are easily influenced. As Polly Toynbee said, quoted on another thread here today, The Tories have played a blinder on Welfare, convincing everyone that the system needs to change.

"Played a blinder" about right OW, as usual.

It's possible that the two Eds are intentionally misleading the Tory spin merchants by apparently agreeing to continue some of the Coalition policies on welfare.  Heaven knows that the entire Public were misled by Tory statements in the run-up to the 2010 election.

I think there are two hurdles for Labour to overcome between now and 2015, which they will be very familiar with.

1.  The Credit Crunch happened on Gordon Brown's Watch, and although few people think it was of his personal creation, criticism is inevitable for whoever happened to be in charge at the time.  Life isn't fair.
Accordingly Messrs. Balls and Miliband have to convince the voters that they can be trusted with the Nation's economy.  It shouldn't be difficult, with Gideon's record in that area.

2.  Britain's wealth is created by Britain's businessmen, who see natural allies in the Tory Toffs, whose life-span in Parliament is measured in 5-year stints.  Businessmen themselves are often more concerned about the short-term movements of their shares on the Stock Exchange, so it is difficult for any other Party to hold their attention for very long, though that is what Labour has to do.  Blair came close to a truce with Big Business in 1997, and that passive acceptance of reality has to be maintained, or return to Michael Foot's Longest suicide note in history.

Bobby and OW. I agree to a point with most of your comments, however, is it not the case that the electorate have very short memories? If one looks back at all the numerous unpalatable doings of Gideon and Cameron that have badly affected the poor the sick, the working man, the middle classes and yet has assisted the wealthy so much even in such times of so called "required austerity measures" and "we are all in it together. Ask anyone to look back and remember all the bad but LIMITED MEDIA publicity these Tory swine have suffered. For a few examples the Caulson case, the Baroness Swasi,case, the close proximity of Cameron to Brooks. Add the many more  rather damning and yet not yet exposed obviously guilty parties who are wriggling like worms and getting off the hook because of events such as the Syrian crisis are taking the headlines.

In view of this situation, it is my opinion that Ed & Co are simply waiting for the right moment nearer the next election to highlight in one mighty attack covering every nasty move the Tories have made.

Of course by that time perhaps giving them more rope they will strangle themselves, they have not so far made such a bad start to that effect, however the electorate must ultimately be vigourously reminded of all that has gone on and what they have missed by not taking notice or not being informed by a gagged media/press.

Mel

The neo-liberal blue labour party are simply waiting to pick up the baton from the tories and carry on with the SAME neo-liberal agenda.

I'm beginning to feel lonely.  There are the Cameron Tories, the Clegg Tories, the UKIP Tories, the Thatcherite Tories and now apparently the neo-liberal blue Labour Party Tories.

That's not fair!

Chippy, unfortunately we are living in a modern Britain where everything under the sun has changed in the past 60yrs, especially since the Witches watch. Labour had to and still has to change, otherwise the fickle and ignorant electorate are likely to vote the Tory scum back in
 again.

Nothing is "fair" OW, unless one is rich.

Mel,

Labour had to and still has to change




Into what? A mirror image of the tory party? A complimentary sauce for a neo-liberal main course?


The Labour party and the unions are lily livered unprincipled weaklings at the beck and call of corporations and banks. They are as bad as the Tory party.


Democracy? Don't make me laugh! A see-saw with the tories at one end and labour at the other working in tandem.

"The Labour party and the unions are lily livered unprincipled weaklings at the beck and call of corporations and banks. They are as bad as the Tory party."

Call it as you see it, sickchip. 

The old Labour party that you would like to see resurrected will never happen because the electorate reqognise that old party as Union and strike orientated with memories of Michael Foot, Scargill and perhaps
Kinnock. They have listened for years to the Tory propaganda and the Thatcherites and have been brainwashed, just as they were by the Tory loving media/press when NL and Brown was blamed for the Global Crisis.

The point is Chippy, which party has the best chance of ridding us of the Tories? You obviously hate them. The LD's will be out on their ears next time UKIP although proving quite popular will not get enough vots to put them in power. Labour today may not be old labour but surely a far far better bet than the barstuards we have in power today.

Unfortunately and with respect, it is people with your views who inadertantly help let the Tory scum into office

Mel,

We've had 'tory scum' in office 1979 - 2013.....including 1997 - 2010. It seems that is our only option.

"What are you protesting against?"

"What've you got?

All I can say in reply Chippy is that thank God for the min wage. It's no where near enough NOW, however you can't say it was  Tory government that brought it in 1997-2010.
Better the devil that does something for those a the bottom no matter how little, rather than the devil that does every darn thing possible to make life harder for the poor beggers. No good hoping for a non existant
invisible mythical party to be jetted into office now is it?

The prime minister's adviser on enterprise has told the cabinet that the economic downturn is an excellent time for new businesses to boost profits and grow because labour is cheap, the Observer can reveal.
Lord Young, a cabinet minister under the late Baroness Thatcher, who is the only aide with his own office in Downing Street, told ministers that the low wage levels in a recession made larger financial returns easier to achieve. His comments are contained in a report to be published this week, on which the cabinet was briefed last Tuesday.

THAT CHIP SAYS IT ALL!!!!

Guardian May 11th 13

It's bein' so cheerful as keeps us goin', sickchip.