Will the cruel Tory welfare reforms save any money?

First topic message reminder :

My personal opinion is that the current spate of tory reforms to the benefit system are cruel, regressive, and worst of all won't save money (the alleged intention).



In a supposedly modern civilised country one would think housing would be considered a human right.......rather than simply an investment / a chance to make a fast buck.

I note there is talk of a yacht for the biggest benefit claimee of them all. I note over £10billion has been spent on the olympics. I note £32billion is being spent on a high speed rail link (london-birmingham) - this will shave, a no doubt absolutely vita,l 32mins off the journey (essential??!!!) and be used by a miniscule % of the UK population.

How about investing this money in affordable social housing instead? Or do government no longer care to invest in those they view as peasants and serfs?

The tories efforts to turn the nation against those unfortunate enough to find themselves unemployed via vile smears, and an insidious propaganda campaign, are reminiscent of Nazi germany's propaganda campaign against the jews.

Iain Duncan Smith is a disgusting human being and has blood on his hands.

Instead of kicking the weakest targets that can't defend themselves....maybe the Bullingdon bullies should try picking on somebody their own size.....like the bankers, or benefit leeching corporations like Tescos.

They currently resemble a 20st thug stamping on a little girls head.

Welfare is essential and if we are to remain a civilised country we owe it to ourselves to provide for those less fortunate; unless we want to see people starving and homeless turning into savages.

The biggest burden on the UK in recent times has not been the unemployed.....welfare is not a burden - it is an essential expense in a civilised nation.

The biggest burden, and the cause of much unemployment, has been the rich greedy bankers who have cost this country, and us taxpayers, untold £billions in order to benefit a few. They have placed the real burden on the UK.

Mel wrote:Thank you blue.

Where you fail to see the reality with respect, is that the private sector working man has been brainwashed by the Tories to hate people on benefits and those in the public sector. Tories have cleverly separated them from eachother and have used the media/press (as usual) to use a few bad examples of benefit cheats and others to fuel their propaganda programme.

You are sooooo right Mel and I wonder at the publics naivete at what Scam..er..on is doing MANIPULATE the people but he will slip up and of course the figures on growth and unemployment and all the private sector business that are going down the plug hole there has two since Wednesday.

You are sooooo right Mel and I wonder at the publics naivete at what Scam..er

Strange how it's everyone else who is Naive, but not you lot. Most of the public seem to be showing common sense, something that is lacking with some posters on here

IVAN......ps......2 Tories, 2 Labour and 1 Lib Dem to be more accurate.

blue:-
2 Tories - Elizabeth Truss and Melanie Phillips.
1 Lib Dem - Jeremy Browne - member of Tory-led government. Every word he uttered could have come from a Tory.
1 Labour - David Lammy.
Mark Steel - left wing but definitely not a Labour supporter, and until quite recently a member of the Socialist Workers Party.

When Labour was in power, Question Time had one supporter of the government on almost every occasion. Now the Tories and their poodles are in power, we get three.

The reasons for all of this date back to 2006, when Cameron flew off to see Murdoch (just as Blair had done in 1995). Murdoch promised to support Cameron in return for three things:- (i) that he would be allowed to buy up all of BSkyB, (ii) that Cameron would put a Murdoch man - Coulson - in the heart of Downing Street, and (iii) that the BBC would be broken up to prevent it from competing effectively with Murdoch's media empire.

This accounts for the incessant attacks carried out on Gordon Brown every time that he made a spelling mistake or called someone a bigot when he thought he was speaking privately. It also accounts for the way in which all Cameron's gaffes and excesses - even when he included Tourette's in an insult - have hardly received consideration in the media. And it accounts for the way in which the BBC has been cowed in the last couple of years and has become little more than a Tory mouthpiece; it's so-called impartiality has long gone out of the window.

blueturando wrote:

You are sooooo right Mel and I wonder at the publics naivete at what Scam..er

Strange how it's everyone else who is Naive, but not you lot. Most of the public seem to be showing common sense, something that is lacking with some posters on here

Yes they are showing common sense for the time being until the penny drops and they come back to there senses and work out that this Gov't has HOODWINKED them well and truly led them right up the garden path, and woe betide them when this happens riots on the streets of the summer will be put in the shade.

Yes Ivan I knew where I had seen the kind of media support before and I couldn't put my finger on it....Ah yes, it was for Blair from 97 onwards wasn't it! I'm sure you would have sent them a letter of complaint back then???

The problem is that now you have 2 parties (the coalition) singing from the same hymn sheet, so it's going to appear unbalanced on QT

Ok have a good weekend people...Off for a pint or 3

Now now blue, don't get out of yer blue pram.

Glad to see you can afford a "pint or three" in these times of austerity.

The Police are not naive, hospital workers are not, neither the teachers and all the rest of those poor sods being hit hard by these evil gits.

As I have already said, those who do not care in the private sector are ok as long as they still have a job. They are the naive ones who cant see the wood for the trees. Happy boozing!!!!

Helloooooooooo Mel!!!!

Nice T' see yer back.

I see the Quills have been suitably sharpened, and hope you had the Grandkids mixing gallons of ink!!


Sorry to read about the old fellah!

Hi astra thanks.

Grand kid (solo) and my own 5 mixing it up ready for the attack of the truth.

Yes I miss the big guy so much. His main job apart from guarding against intruders was to keep out those bloody Tory leaflet distributers ha ha!!!!

Realistically, by the time of the next General Election, it will have become crystal-clear to everyone what success the Coalition has had with restoring the British Economy.

Hopefully too, by then Voters will have realised the effect of abstaining in large numbers at the previous Election - and act to avoid a re-run.

oftenwrong wrote:Realistically, by the time of the next General Election, it will have become crystal-clear to everyone what success the Coalition has had with restoring the British Economy.

Hopefully too, by then Voters will have realised the effect of abstaining in large numbers at the previous Election - and act to avoid a re-run.

It's crystal clear to me and many others now that they have had no success with the British Economy and indeed have made it hell of a lot worse.

Funny how things go round and SEEM to come around again!
This of the poor paying for the bail out reminds me of George Granville Leveson-Gower, Marquess of Stafford and first Duke of Sutherland who's monument above Golspie was payed for mostly by subscription DEMANDED from his tennants. (Exactly the same happened on his estates in England, Trentham, where hard pressed ie. poor! tennants were FORCED to pay for their oppressive master's monument!)

Anyone think that Cameron has been reading old history and had a wet dream?

http://www.discoversutherland.co.uk/golspie_duke.php

http://www.thornber.net/staffs/html/trentham.html

They have an ingrained way of thinking which is the product of Centuries of entitlement.

A worrying number of people are prepared to accept that assumption.

LWS wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:Realistically, by the time of the next General Election, it will have become crystal-clear to everyone what success the Coalition has had with restoring the British Economy.

Hopefully too, by then Voters will have realised the effect of abstaining in large numbers at the previous Election - and act to avoid a re-run.

It's crystal clear to me and many others now that they have had no success with the British Economy and indeed have made it hell of a lot worse.

LWS
The UK economy is in such a mess today its hard to know where to even start. its got worse with every set of figures the OBR or ONS comes out with. we have borrowing with no growth and just paying wages and unemployment. we have manufacturing jobless in Q4 hitting 395,000 and this was touted as the engine of there economy. our National debate has just hit £1.03 Trillion for the very first time in our economic History. we had a total of 20,900 business failures in 2011 on top of the 23,000 we lost in 2010. the R.PI in Jan up to the highest since 1991. with real inflation at about 6.6% (equifax) with the sharpest fall in Disposable income since 1980s or 30 years. UK exports Vs Imports increased by only 14.7% UBS and OECD. but bar from that its going quite well Gideon tells us all.

Stox 16

Thank you for that correct analysis of Gideon's disasterous measures.

The problem is IMO Stox, is that those hoodwinked fools and those who thought it was "time for a change" at the last election, are even now still digesting and believing the constant Tory excuses parrot fashion produced at every public interview by every Tory politician, that is was and is "Brown and Labours fault that we are in this mess".

Is that the same Brown that used to have the Murdocks for a "sleepover".

On the bright side, buying Euros is great at the moment and the £ is worth more Dinahs at the moment (great place Tunisia). The missus is presently browsing the internet wondering where to go over the summer and should we have a short break before. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

This is clearly a cross-over of economics and politics, but some posters have hit the nail on the head when they point out that no growth + rising welfare payments is a recipe for disaster.

The assumption by the average Conservative thinker is that public or state sector jobs dont count towards growth, economic prosperity and that they are some kind of artificialy made burden.

Taking nurses and teachers out of hospitals and schools, then sacking them and paying them redundancy and welfare benefits to do nothing makes no sense what so ever, overall disposable income falls, travel agents sack workers or go bust, car sales fall, the property market stays in the doldrums and everything stagnates.

If you do not believe me, look at America where Mr Obama followed the path that Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown would have taken Britain on.

In the United States the cuts were delayed until growth was well established, unemployment is falling, economic activity is returning to every area of the economy.

Sooner or later Mr Osborne will have to admit that he has got it wrong

witchfinder wrote.

"Sooner or later Mr Osborne will have to admit that he has got it wrong"

Witchy mate, that will never happen. They have presented us with many policies and have had to revise them because they Bollixed them up. And when they come back with their second revision, they will not admit failure, nor even with the third , fourth or however many more revisions are necessary to still get it wrong. They are the epitome of arrogance.
If they do follow a Labour idea, they say its something they have been thinking about since they cheated their way into office, only its funny that these things they where thinking about since coming to office, where never introduced until after their ideologically based plans went tits up.

Witchy, what astounds me is that the Tory’s have managed to retain some of their original support. These sheeple voted Tory either based on their manifesto, or the voter agrees with Tory ideology irrespective of what the outcome may be.
Those that voted Tory based on the Manifesto, have not got what they voted for, as the Tory’s haven’t stuck to anything they said they would or wouldn’t do. So why do these sheeple continue giving their support, Perhaps either TLTTF or blueturando could tell me as I am most interested. If I have a decorator in to decorate my home, and I pick a certain colour, then see him using something else without asking me first, he will have to put things right immediately or I will phuck him off. So why do the Tory sycophants remain Loyal, other than they are Tory’s and carry the same nasty streak their politicians have.

Quote : " If I have a decorator in to decorate my home, and I pick a certain colour, then see him using something else without asking me first, he will have to put things right immediately or I will phuck him off. So why do the Tory sycophants remain Loyal, other than they are Tory’s and carry the same nasty streak their politicians have."

Bobby's post reminds me of a recent little domestic incident which I rather enjoyed. I had a local tradesman in to carry out some work which was to have brought him a nice little four-figure sum.

In the early stages of the work, while we were still undertaking the usual pleasantries, he informed me just how difficult things currently were for him and also for what turned out to be his beloved Tory Party who were struggling against cruel political adversity. I mildly ventured the view that perhaps Mr Cameron was not the saviour of the nation after all, and was told in remarkably confident terms that if I felt that, I didn't know what was good for me.

Having given this view due consideration for all of five seconds, I gave the fellow £50 for his advice and told him to pack up, put his tools where the squirrel put his nuts, and that if he was in any way inconvenienced he should write forthwith to the noble Mr Cameron, who would doubtless reimburse him for his lost earnings.

Rarely does one get an opportunity to correct inappropriate behaviour quite so promptly.

Does anyone know a non-political tradesman - or at least one who keeps his big trap shut in the wrong company...?

bobby wrote:Witchy, what astounds me is that the Tory’s have managed to retain some of their original support. These sheeple voted Tory either based on their manifesto, or the voter agrees with Tory ideology irrespective of what the outcome may be.
Those that voted Tory based on the Manifesto, have not got what they voted for, as the Tory’s haven’t stuck to anything they said they would or wouldn’t do. So why do these sheeple continue giving their support, Perhaps either TLTTF or blueturando could tell me as I am most interested. If I have a decorator in to decorate my home, and I pick a certain colour, then see him using something else without asking me first, he will have to put things right immediately or I will phuck him off. So why do the Tory sycophants remain Loyal, other than they are Tory’s and carry the same nasty streak their politicians have.

I think Tory supporters love the idea of hammering the poor, because the poor are seen by them as wasters and scoungers.

It's just the same as Nazi Germany when Hitler managed to brainwashed the cultured Germany's to do what the world knows they did.

Phil Hornby wrote:Quote : " If I have a decorator in to decorate my home, and I pick a certain colour, then see him using something else without asking me first, he will have to put things right immediately or I will phuck him off. So why do the Tory sycophants remain Loyal, other than they are Tory’s and carry the same nasty streak their politicians have."

Bobby's post reminds me of a recent little domestic incident which I rather enjoyed. I had a local tradesman in to carry out some work which was to have brought him a nice little four-figure sum.

In the early stages of the work, while we were still undertaking the usual pleasantries, he informed me just how difficult things currently were for him and also for what turned out to be his beloved Tory Party who were struggling against cruel political adversity. I mildly ventured the view that perhaps Mr Cameron was not the saviour of the nation after all, and was told in remarkably confident terms that if I felt that, I didn't know what was good for me.

Having given this view due consideration for all of five seconds, I gave the fellow £50 for his advice and told him to pack up, put his tools where the squirrel put his nuts, and that if he was in any way inconvenienced he should write forthwith to the noble Mr Cameron, who would doubtless reimburse him for his lost earnings.

Rarely does one get an opportunity to correct inappropriate behaviour quite so promptly.

Does anyone know a non-political tradesman - or at least one who keeps his big trap shut in the wrong company...?

If I had been given this chance to put a Tory supporter in his place, I would have handled it differently.

I take his response to you, ie """"and was told in remarkably confident terms that if I felt that, I didn't know what was good for me""""

I would have challenged his view. I would have asked him what he meant, and then challenged that.

According to the Bories, UK is BUST!!


So all the welfarre reforms are VERY necessary, to keep the country afloat!!

Gideon is on SKY Gnus saying HE is willing to put MORE money into the International Monetary Fund Coffers.

Where is he getting this money??


Nice to know my Disability Living Allowance is earmarked for such a worthy cause!!

GIVE money to those who would sooner kick us in the teeth than give us a hand back onto our feet!!

Quote : " If I had been given this chance to put a Tory supporter in his place, I would have handled it differently.........I would have challenged his view. I would have asked him what he meant, and then challenged that."

Yes, Ivanhoe - I did think of making him a cafetiere and a chicken sandwich (with freshly-tossed side salad) whilst I chilled some wine for lunchtime and prepared an apology in response to his scathing criticism of my position on Cameron. But I decided against...

He would probably complained anyway Phil, wrong kind of coffe (I only use Aravica!) to much/not enuff salt on the sannich or an inferior species of lettuce!

Some of the things I've heard since stopping work in 2006 are incredible in their insensitivity! That's the Bory for you!

Phil, you did just fine, the best place to hit a phucking Tory, is in his pocket. that is "almost" the same as I would have done. Well done Phil

Hello Bobby


I couldn't offer him coffee anyway!! two words and the lovechild barsteward would be wearing it rather than consuming it!

Phil Hornby wrote:Quote : " If I had been given this chance to put a Tory supporter in his place, I would have handled it differently.........I would have challenged his view. I would have asked him what he meant, and then challenged that."

Yes, Ivanhoe - I did think of making him a cafetiere and a chicken sandwich (with freshly-tossed side salad) whilst I chilled some wine for lunchtime and prepared an apology in response to his scathing criticism of my position on Cameron. But I decided against...

Next time, dont decide against it, go with it and wait for the garbage to flow.

"V, We are of the same mind my friend

bobby wrote:"V, We are of the same mind my friend

"One" makes friends, in the most unusual places.

Nowt unusual abot meeting people on the 'NET'!




Got to be betterer than wot Members of Parliament and Pop 'Singers' do

ie.

Making 'friends' in male public toilets!!!

astra wrote:Nowt unusual abot meeting people on the 'NET'!




Got to be betterer than wot Members of Parliament and Pop 'Singers' do

ie.

Making 'friends' in male public toilets!!!

There was no need for that disasteful remark.

Ivanhoe, you are neither an MP or an infamous pop singer are you? if you are then sorry

BUT

how I make friends is for me, and Bobby and I go back at least 3 years talking on the ether!

Mel wrote:Hi astra thanks.

Grand kid (solo) and my own 5 mixing it up ready for the attack of the truth.

Yes I miss the big guy so much. His main job apart from guarding against intruders was to keep out those bloody Tory leaflet distributers ha ha!!!!

Since you have lost your best friend let me give you a few tips for keeping out the Tory leaflet distributers, put a notice on your front door addressed to distributers.

MOUSE TRAP INSIDE LETTER BOX put your hand in at your own risk I will not be held responsible for your injuries.

paint a Star of David on your front door or gate



keeps 'em ALL away!!

blueturando wrote:

You are sooooo right Mel and I wonder at the publics naivete at what Scam..er

Strange how it's everyone else who is Naive, but not you lot. Most of the public seem to be showing common sense, something that is lacking with some posters on here

For the time being they are showing common sense until the people realize they are being HOODWINKED by the Blue and Yellow Tories, but the Worm will turn and heaven help this Gov't then the UK public will extract a heavy penalty from Scam..er..on I hope he is willing to pay the high price.

oftenwrong wrote:Realistically, by the time of the next General Election, it will have become crystal-clear to everyone what success the Coalition has had with restoring the British Economy.

Hopefully too, by then Voters will have realised the effect of abstaining in large numbers at the previous Election - and act to avoid a re-run.

Lets hope your right OW and they get off there butts and get themselves down too the polling station and give Scam..er..on a right kicking at the polling stations right across the UK.

astradt1 wrote:Interesting that this government is determined to reduce the amount of benefits families can receive, but when it come to limiting the amount company bosses receive, in pay and bonus's, the decission is 'above their pay grade' even in companies where the taxpayer is a the major shareholder......

As I have always said its one law for us and another for them (thats the haves) the Tories think we are beneath them and the ones that control the wealth of the UK are just as bad they want to take us back into Charles Dickens time when us surfs had to doff our caps to Scam..er..on and his crowd.

Redflag wrote:

astradt1 wrote:Interesting that this government is determined to reduce the amount of benefits families can receive, but when it come to limiting the amount company bosses receive, in pay and bonus's, the decission is 'above their pay grade' even in companies where the taxpayer is a the major shareholder......

As I have always said its one law for us and another for them (thats the haves) the Tories think we are beneath them and the ones that control the wealth of the UK are just as bad they want to take us back into Charles Dickens time when us surfs had to doff our caps to Scam..er..on and his crowd.

There is a lot of outright snobbery attached to working class people voting Tory in this country. I wonder when and if the penny will ever drop.

astra wrote:Funny how things go round and SEEM to come around again!
This of the poor paying for the bail out reminds me of George Granville Leveson-Gower, Marquess of Stafford and first Duke of Sutherland who's monument above Golspie was payed for mostly by subscription DEMANDED from his tennants. (Exactly the same happened on his estates in England, Trentham, where hard pressed ie. poor! tennants were FORCED to pay for their oppressive master's monument!)

Anyone think that Cameron has been reading old history and had a wet dream?

http://www.discoversutherland.co.uk/golspie_duke.php

http://www.thornber.net/staffs/html/trentham.html

Hi astra I sort of agree with you I have suspected for a while that he has been looking through Thatchers old papers because of some of the cuts and other things he is doing what do you think astra.

Redflag wrote:

astra wrote:Funny how things go round and SEEM to come around again!
This of the poor paying for the bail out reminds me of George Granville Leveson-Gower, Marquess of Stafford and first Duke of Sutherland who's monument above Golspie was payed for mostly by subscription DEMANDED from his tennants. (Exactly the same happened on his estates in England, Trentham, where hard pressed ie. poor! tennants were FORCED to pay for their oppressive master's monument!)

Anyone think that Cameron has been reading old history and had a wet dream?

http://www.discoversutherland.co.uk/golspie_duke.php

http://www.thornber.net/staffs/html/trentham.html

Hi astra I sort of agree with you I have suspected for a while that he has been looking through Thatchers old papers because of some of the cuts and other things he is doing what do you think astra.

Right wing ideoligy is to reduce the State in favour of privatisation and charities. Thatcher started this in the 80's. Cameron is finishing to job, thanks to Tory supporters at the last G/E, and of course, Clegg.

Gideon and Cameron have boasted on the podium that they - "are Sons of Thatcher" So no more needs to be said about their "mission" in politics.