Will the cruel Tory welfare reforms save any money?

First topic message reminder :

My personal opinion is that the current spate of tory reforms to the benefit system are cruel, regressive, and worst of all won't save money (the alleged intention).



In a supposedly modern civilised country one would think housing would be considered a human right.......rather than simply an investment / a chance to make a fast buck.

I note there is talk of a yacht for the biggest benefit claimee of them all. I note over £10billion has been spent on the olympics. I note £32billion is being spent on a high speed rail link (london-birmingham) - this will shave, a no doubt absolutely vita,l 32mins off the journey (essential??!!!) and be used by a miniscule % of the UK population.

How about investing this money in affordable social housing instead? Or do government no longer care to invest in those they view as peasants and serfs?

The tories efforts to turn the nation against those unfortunate enough to find themselves unemployed via vile smears, and an insidious propaganda campaign, are reminiscent of Nazi germany's propaganda campaign against the jews.

Iain Duncan Smith is a disgusting human being and has blood on his hands.

Instead of kicking the weakest targets that can't defend themselves....maybe the Bullingdon bullies should try picking on somebody their own size.....like the bankers, or benefit leeching corporations like Tescos.

They currently resemble a 20st thug stamping on a little girls head.

Welfare is essential and if we are to remain a civilised country we owe it to ourselves to provide for those less fortunate; unless we want to see people starving and homeless turning into savages.

The biggest burden on the UK in recent times has not been the unemployed.....welfare is not a burden - it is an essential expense in a civilised nation.

The biggest burden, and the cause of much unemployment, has been the rich greedy bankers who have cost this country, and us taxpayers, untold £billions in order to benefit a few. They have placed the real burden on the UK.

blueturando wrote:

Yes, I predict 7 to 10 million unemployed at the end of this Parliament

Yes if the coalition use the dodgy counting system New Labour used when in government...they were the kings of statistical manipulation

Considering your a Tory bluey, that's a good one from you.

blue

Quote--"Mel....I agree this is shocking!!! Who can trust a government that would overturn a House of Lords decision?
I know Labour would never do it, because that would be hypocrisy...wouldn't it! And I am sure you wouldn't want to think of Labour as a cruel, arrogant, brutal beast???"

The difference blue between this beast and Labour is--yes Labour might well overturn a HOL decision. However it would be in favour of the unempoyed, the sick, the poor and the children. Not utterly against as this evil lot are up to.

Are you hoping all these so called "savings" are going towards the elemination of your top rate of taxation?
.

Are you hoping all these so called "savings" are going towards the elemination of your top rate of taxation?

I am based in Jersey now Mel, so my taxes are very different from the UK...but I appreciate your concern
Here we have 20 means 20....in other words everyone is on 20%, with the first 8k being tax free

And what kind of state will this Tory led Gov't leave the country in after only FIVE years,

It will be left in the same state the last time Labour were thrown out of power.
The Guardian, Monday 25 April 2005 08.30 BST
I have great faith in people's ability to see through hype. The rewriting of facts which characterises this government is not limited to intelligence dossiers. A central part of New Labour's mission is to make us believe that the strong performance of the British economy dates from the moment Labour was elected. But as Derek Scott, Blair's economic adviser, has written, Brown's economic inheritance in 1997 was better than that of any previous chancellor in living memory.

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/apr/25/election2005.economyCached - Similar

(johnhobsonphotography.com)

This is what a proper gander looks like....

blueturando wrote:

Are you hoping all these so called "savings" are going towards the elemination of your top rate of taxation?

I am based in Jersey now Mel, so my taxes are very different from the UK...but I appreciate your concern
Here we have 20 means 20....in other words everyone is on 20%, with the first 8k being tax free

Oh I see blue. That is what the Witch wanted here, the poor to pay the same taxes as the rich. It is now very obvious why you are a staunch Tory supporter and why you moved to Jersey. The recruitment business must be flourishing with all this Tory manufactured unemployment (cheap labour as usual) I trust you sleep well at nights?

phil

The nasty Tory brigade all need a good goosing.

Oh I see blue. That is what the Witch wanted here, the poor to pay the same taxes as the rich. It is now very obvious why you are a staunch Tory supporter and why you moved to Jersey. The recruitment business must be flourishing with all this Tory manufactured unemployment (cheap labour as usual) I trust you sleep well at nights?.

Mel I dont make the rules. I have lived here now for 26 years and had my own business for only 2 years...I am certainly not rich, far from it.....and I have done many jobs in my time, many of those low paid. A few year ago I decided to get my act together and retrained and studied for further qualifications, so now I am hoping my hard work will pay off one day

Basically I am a working class Tory...nothing more

blue

Well good luck to you sir. What I fail to understand is why some working class people can support a Tory party, especially one such as this cruel lot and go along with measures that affect all those at the bottom and the middle working classes. Unless there is an underlying reason that somehow benefits these so called "working class Tories"personally by supporting Tory ideology.

Phil Hornby wrote:(johnhobsonphotography.com)

This is what a proper gander looks like....

Thanks PH I know what proper gander sounds like but now I know what it looks like also, I just wonder when the people of the UK are going to get that knowledge as well perhaps they have not woken up yet.

Mel wrote:

blueturando wrote:

Are you hoping all these so called "savings" are going towards the elemination of your top rate of taxation?

I am based in Jersey now Mel, so my taxes are very different from the UK...but I appreciate your concern
Here we have 20 means 20....in other words everyone is on 20%, with the first 8k being tax free

Oh I see blue. That is what the Witch wanted here, the poor to pay the same taxes as the rich. It is now very obvious why you are a staunch Tory supporter and why you moved to Jersey. The recruitment business must be flourishing with all this Tory manufactured unemployment (cheap labour as usual) I trust you sleep well at nights?

Mel do not worry yourself from what I have seen this week all the bills been passed in the H.O.C there is worse to come for us (the Plebs), you said in an earlier post that people would not go on General Strike what is coming towards the end of this year and the beginning of next will rouse the people into action, I have just found out that our housing association has been putting feelers out trying to implement there Housing Benefit bill so it has started already and I will be in there firing line because I have one spare bedroom which is kept for family when Im ill.

blueturando wrote:

Oh I see blue. That is what the Witch wanted here, the poor to pay the same taxes as the rich. It is now very obvious why you are a staunch Tory supporter and why you moved to Jersey. The recruitment business must be flourishing with all this Tory manufactured unemployment (cheap labour as usual) I trust you sleep well at nights?.

Mel I dont make the rules.....

Basically I am a working class Tory...

An oxymoron while popular opinion continues to hold the Tory Party as representing the interests of a wealthy establishment. Not even the Party propaganda machine pretends to be friends of the working-class - their best effort is usually to talk about "fairness" (which means providing lots of opportunities for low-paid employment).

Oxymoron.

As I understand it oxymoron, the word comes from the Greek: oxus ('sharp') and mōros ('foolish'). A very apt example given us by our learned friend OW.

As per usual of course.

Is an Oxo moron an idiot covered in Gravy.

Much better flavour than when covered in confusion.

bobby wrote:Is an Oxo moron an idiot covered in Gravy.

And what would you call a Tory covered in Verbal Diarrhoea ? any ideas bobby.

Wacha Red, Yes a shithead.

Zee Leetle Sheet!!

astra wrote:Zee Leetle Sheet!!

Thanks bobby and astra now I know thanks.

The situation in Greece with it's tough austerity programme has NOT addressed the deficit issue at all. In fact the matter has become worse because of these measures.
Does this proof not not highlight what I have been saying about Tory policies, supposed to cut our deficit, within a guise to simply intoduce irriversible Tory ideology, whilst they gamble and hope that the situation for the country might improve by chance?
Some hope of that when we see we may be heading for a double dip, along with mass government made unemployment with more to come, high inflation, minus growth and goverment spending now higher than in 2008.

Come on Joe public, how much more proof do you need to realise you have and are being utterly duped?

Mel wrote:The situation in Greece with it's tough austerity programme has NOT addressed the deficit issue at all. In fact the matter has become worse because of these measures.
Does this proof not not highlight what I have been saying about Tory policies, supposed to cut our deficit, within a guise to simply intoduce irriversible Tory ideology, whilst they gamble and hope that the situation for the country might improve by chance?
Some hope of that when we see we may be heading for a double dip, along with mass government made unemployment with more to come, high inflation, minus growth and goverment spending now higher than in 2008.

Come on Joe public, how much more proof do you need to realise you have and are being utterly duped?

Hello Mel, When enough people are hurting, perhaps they then, will realise they have indeed been duped.

The situation in Greece with it's tough austerity programme has NOT addressed the deficit issue at all. In fact the matter has become worse because of these measures.

Yes Mel, we should encourage Greece to spend, spend, spend....& then borrow more and more and then see what happens. What do you think would happen?

I tell you what Mel, why dont you spend all your money, then go and borrow some, spend all that and keep the process going over and over again....If it's good for Greece and us, then I am sure you could get away with it too

Everything looks so simple if one simply compares it all to a household's domestic budget, doesn't it? Thatcher thought the same.

It's not quite like that ... but let's not spoil the Tory fairytale...

Mr Micawber had it right when he said: ‘Income 20 shillings, expenditure 19 shillings and sixpence is happiness. Income 20 shillings, expenditure 20 shillings and sixpence is misery.’ It is, of course, reasonable to spend money that we do not immediately have by borrowing to invest in a carefully planned project such as a house to live in or a factory to produce wealth. That is what banks or governments used to do. However, funding a lifestyle on credit is ruinous and only puts off and deepens the inevitable reversal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2828846/

blue wrote quote "Yes Mel, we should encourage Greece to spend, spend, spend....& then borrow more and more and then see what happens. What do you think would happen?"

Probably Greece have gone beyond revival due to the disasterous effects of the severe austerity measures put upon them. However ALL governments borrow and if Greece had borrowed to fund infrastucture/developements, as we should be doing, then I doubt if Greece would be in such a bad situation as they are now.

The whole problem is lack of courage to borrow by our manufacting base coupled with the fact that the banks are so fearful to lend. Government borrowing to get our building industry going is the answer for example.
Staying static and hoping that auterity measures will cure the probem is far fetched, especially here in the UK, as it is mainly a very good opportunity for a Tory government to take wealth from the poor to assist the rich and powerful. All railroaded through because from the very start of the election outcome, they fully realised that they would only survive one term or less in office.

Mel wrote:blue wrote quote "Yes Mel, we should encourage Greece to spend, spend, spend....& then borrow more and more and then see what happens. What do you think would happen?"

Probably Greece have gone beyond revival due to the disasterous effects of the severe austerity measures put upon them. However ALL governments borrow and if Greece had borrowed to fund infrastucture/developements, as we should be doing, then I doubt if Greece would be in such a bad situation as they are now.

The whole problem is lack of courage to borrow by our manufacting base coupled with the fact that the banks are so fearful to lend. Government borrowing to get our building industry going is the answer for example.
Staying static and hoping that auterity measures will cure the probem is far fetched, especially here in the UK, as it is mainly a very good opportunity for a Tory government to take wealth from the poor to assist the rich and powerful. All railroaded through because from the very start of the election outcome, they fully realised that they would only survive one term or less in office.

Hello Mel. Why in your view, are working class Tory's so thick and thick skinned ??

As with most thick and thick skinned Labour working class people, you only see what you 'want' to see......truth and reality doesn't exist or is just inconvenient

Why is Greece in trouble?
Greece has been living beyond its means since even before it joined the euro. After it adopted the euro, public spending soared and public sector wages practically doubled.
However, whilst money has flowed out of the government's coffers, its income has been hit by widespread tax evasion.
When the global financial downturn hit, Greece was ill-prepared to cope.
It was given 110bn euros of bailout loans in May 2010 to help it get through the crisis - and then in July 2011, it was earmarked to receive another 109bn euros.
But that still was not considered enough.
And so, in October 2011, the eurozone got banks to agree to a 50% "haircut" on their Greek holdings, alongside an enhanced 130bn euro bailout.
Since then the economic situation in Greece has deteriorated further and the deal EU leaders are trying to agree now involves an even bigger debt write off than previously consented to by the bank

Why did the crisis not end with the Greek bailout?
Although Greece's troubles are the most extreme, they highlight problems in the eurozone that also apply to some other economies.
Many other southern European countries ran up huge debts - government debts as well as household mortgage debts - during the past 10 years. They also enjoyed rapidly rising wage levels.

Now the bust has come, it is very hard for them to repay the debts. And the high wage levels leave their economies uncompetitive compared with, for example, Germany.
Because they are inside the euro, these governments cannot rely on their central bank - the ECB - to lend them the money. Nor can they devalue their currencies to regain a competitive edge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13798000

blueturando wrote:As with most thick and thick skinned Labour working class people, you only see what you 'want' to see......truth and reality doesn't exist or is just inconvenient

Why is Greece in trouble?
Greece has been living beyond its means since even before it joined the euro. After it adopted the euro, public spending soared and public sector wages practically doubled.
However, whilst money has flowed out of the government's coffers, its income has been hit by widespread tax evasion.
When the global financial downturn hit, Greece was ill-prepared to cope.
It was given 110bn euros of bailout loans in May 2010 to help it get through the crisis - and then in July 2011, it was earmarked to receive another 109bn euros.
But that still was not considered enough.
And so, in October 2011, the eurozone got banks to agree to a 50% "haircut" on their Greek holdings, alongside an enhanced 130bn euro bailout.
Since then the economic situation in Greece has deteriorated further and the deal EU leaders are trying to agree now involves an even bigger debt write off than previously consented to by the bank

Why did the crisis not end with the Greek bailout?
Although Greece's troubles are the most extreme, they highlight problems in the eurozone that also apply to some other economies.
Many other southern European countries ran up huge debts - government debts as well as household mortgage debts - during the past 10 years. They also enjoyed rapidly rising wage levels.

Now the bust has come, it is very hard for them to repay the debts. And the high wage levels leave their economies uncompetitive compared with, for example, Germany.
Because they are inside the euro, these governments cannot rely on their central bank - the ECB - to lend them the money. Nor can they devalue their currencies to regain a competitive edge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13798000

"""""And the high wage levels leave their economies uncompetitive compared with, for example, Germany""".

This sentence says it all about you modern day right wing Tories. Thatcher abolished minimum wages in the 80's bluey, would you have UK workers go back to the days of poverty pay ect ?

Well why are Greece uncompetetive then Ivanhoe.......I am sure you have all the answers being a knowledgeable Labour voter.

I am sure you're lovely person, but you seemed blinded by Leftie idiology on how the global economy and how the markets work.

Let us take a trip down memory lane a for a few minutes.......The coal mines of the 1980's to be more exact.
Militant unions kept bringing out their members on strike over pay and conditions. In the end the pits were unprofitable and unsustanable...they could not compete with the same industires overseas...hence the pit closures.
Now if I am wrong and these pits were profitable, then why didn't the Unions or the workers get together to take over those pits and make some money? Oh no...they couldn't do that because they knew they were not profitable, because of their greed.

So pray tell me Ivanhoe....How are Greece going to make themselves competetive when their public sector salaries practically doubled over night. Something I am sure you would like to see happen in the UK.....

Please explain to me the economics of Ivanhoe...You are now in charge of Greece...what would you do????

Ivanhoe wrote:-
Why in your view, are working class Tories so thick and thick skinned??.

This might answer your question:-

“Those with lower cognitive abilities may gravitate towards socially conservative right-wing ideologies that maintain the status quo. That is because it provides a sense of order". The authors found a strong link between low intelligence both as a child and an adult, and right-wing politics.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t334-are-atheists-and-left-wingers-more-intelligent

Probably Greece have gone beyond revival due to the disasterous effects of the severe austerity measures put upon them. However ALL governments borrow and if Greece had borrowed to fund infrastucture/developements, as we should be doing, then I doubt if Greece would be in such a bad situation as they are now.

Mel.. Greece was borrowing to pay ridiculously high Public sector wages and unworkable pension schemes.....Now it cannot borrow anymore from private investors until they get their house in order

Lol Ivan....good one

Personally I think Leftie's are backward in their thinking, unrealistic, Fantasists, control freaks and envious/jealous of anyone who does better than themsleves in life....I may write a book on the subject

blueturando wrote:Lol Ivan....good one

Personally I think Leftie's are backward in their thinking, unrealistic, Fantasists, control freaks and envious/jealous of anyone who does better then themsleves in life....I may write a book on the subject

Left of centre Conservative, the late Ted Heath, a man I much admired and would support today if he was alive, looked on Thatcherism as not jealousy, but the unacceptable face of capitalism.

What do you say to that bluey ?

I would say he's right in some ways....The is always an uacceptable face to anything that edges towards the extreme

Greece has been living beyond its means since even before it joined the euro. After it adopted the euro, public spending soared and public sector wages practically doubled.

I wonder if Greece's high levels of tax avoidance/evasion has any bearing on this?

Ted was a good man, just a pity he happened to be a tory, if he hadn't, Maggie would have had no reason to stab him in the back.
Miners strike in the eighties was about pit closures not wages, but saying that, miners deserved a decent wage, they lost their health, life, and limbs. Now please tell me what dangers do the bankers get in to to merit their nice fat bonuses. The only danger they have, is getting an hernia carring their ill gotten gains to the bank. Miner's hardly got a wage for failure, never mind a boody bonus. People who have never worked down a mine, coal, tin or gold, are not entitled to comment on work done by men who put their lives on the line daily.

I wonder if Greece's high levels of tax avoidance/evasion has any bearing on this?.

Yes I am sure that has a major part to pay in this too

Jack. Now please tell me what dangers do the bankers get in to to merit their nice fat bonuses

I think you are miles out there Jack. The poor Bankers are in permanent danger of a Caviar Overdose.

I wonder if Greece's high levels of tax avoidance/evasion has any bearing on this?.

blueturando wrote " Yes I am sure that has a major part to pay in this too"

Well then bluey, I take it you condemn equally Gideon, Hammond and some others on the Conservative front bench who owe their part of the 52 Billion owed to us by way of fiddled Taxes.

Miners strike in the eighties was about pit closures not wages, but saying that, miners deserved a decent wage, they lost their health, life, and limbs.

Ok....so please now tell me why the unions, the workers or private companies didn't take over the ownership and running the pits that were closing?

Now please tell me what dangers do the bankers get in to to merit their nice fat bonuses. The only danger they have, is getting an hernia carring their ill gotten gains to the bank

There are no dangers and they don't deserve their fat bonuses

People who have never worked down a mine, coal, tin or gold, are not entitled to comment on work done by men who put their lives on the line daily.

Yes they are......we are entitled to comment on anything we want to...I think it's called freedom of speech