Female Genital Mutilation - horrifying and widespread, despite bans

Last night, my Twitter timeline came alive during Newsnight due to a report about Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). You can watch it here (skip to 19:46m): [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So many people were horrified by the fact that 90% of Egyptian women have suffered FGM. This informative article [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] gives the rates for many other countries: for instance, it's 97% in Somalia too.

No woman can listen to stories of FGM without wincing and imaging the excruciating pain both during the procedure - and ever after. Periods, sex and childbirth are all made unnecessarily and avoidably painful. And I'm sure many men would baulk at seeing how painful it is for a woman. I even remember seeing an earlier film report interviewing a few younger Somali men (ones who lived in Europe, I think) who said that they wanted their wives and girlfriends to enjoy sex (like Western women), not to have to fear the pain of it.

Women suffer health complications, and even death, from how FGM is carried out (which is why it is nothing like male circumcision). Ironically, as bans have been introduced, the procedure has gone more underground, meaning it is done by people with no clinical training. The practice seems to be about tradition and notions of women's 'purity', rather than have any religious basis, and it's done to young girls - their fear and pain and shame is unimaginable.

With anything so culturally ingrained, the forces that continue the practice are both subtle and powerful. There's no doubt that older generations of women continue the practice, misguidedly thinking that this is in their daughters' best interests.

What disturbs me is that there are no doubt girls and women on my own doorstep (e.g. in the Somali community living in Bristol) who have suffered FGW. I remember being very affected by the story of one girl who was sent back 'home' over the summer holidays (a long enough time to 'recover') and returned to school in September cowed, nervous and in constant discomfort. This is not unusual apparently. I hear that people are also brought over to the UK to carry out FGM.

An estimated 20,000 girls in the UK are at risk of FGM. This makes it a child protection issue here in the UK.

How can we help break the cycle? There are organisations working with these communities: The Orchid Project [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and Desert Flower [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and Daughters of Eve [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] among others.

It's a difficult and painful subject (in every sense of the word), but I urge you to get informed and make a noise about this devastating, crippling and unnecessary practice.

This distressing custom is unfortunately not restricted to females. Many African countries have traditional "ceremonies" at which scores or even hundreds of boys are relieved of their foreskin.

If you're going to complain, make it an inclusive protest.

My thanks to novakb for accepting my invitation to join the forum.

Male circumcision for traditional or religious rather than medical reasons is indeed cruel and unnecessary, but nowhere near as devastating in its effects as FGM:-

novakb wrote:-
Periods, sex and childbirth are all made unnecessarily and avoidably painful......Women suffer health complications, and even death, from how FGM is carried out.

novakb, has made the posting based on an article on twitter. I'm sure that if said article included male genital mutilation, it would also be in her post.

I would urge you to actually watch the Newsnight report (link provided in my original post).

My (limited) understanding of this disgraceful practice is that it is invariably carried out by the women of the tribe, upon each other. The males, even if they have an opinion, would probably not get very far by interfering.

Ditto Westerners. But we've been interfering in the affairs of other Cultures for several hundred years, so what makes us think we can change anything now?

oftenwrong wrote:My (limited) understanding of this disgraceful practice is that it is invariably carried out by the women of the tribe, upon each other. The males, even if they have an opinion, would probably not get very far by interfering.

Ditto Westerners. But we've been interfering in the affairs of other Cultures for several hundred years, so what makes us think we can change anything now?

Yes - as I say in my piece above, some men do indeed question the practice.

Lots of men and women are campaigning to change things - see links at the end of my piece above.

It's also not just about Westerners challenging it - it's officially banned and illegal in Egypt, for example.

And girls of Somali origin (for instance), who are born here, have the same rights as anyone else in the UK, therefore it's OUR child protection issue - not just theirs.

bobby wrote:novakb, has made the posting based on an article on twitter. I'm sure that if said article included male genital mutilation, it would also be in her post.

Not sure what you mean by 'an article on Twitter'? My post was based on the Newsnight report last night which is still available to watch on iplayer. There is also accompanying information on the Newsnight website here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The report was purely about female genital mutilation.

The discussion on Twitter was following the screening of the report as people expressed their shock at what the programme had exposed.

Many cultures have "rites of passage" ceremonials when children become adults, of varying acceptability to ourselves. Even among our own customs, there are initiation rites for e.g. apprentices, public-school pupils etc., which can be pretty barbaric. In the Army there is "beasting" and many an RAF Officers' Mess ceiling displays sooty footprints (and there's rather more to that than just the removal of socks).

I watched a programme on this in 1984!

I very nearly put my foot through the TV!!

There is no way I could watch this prog now, and it saddens me that in 20 years nowt has been done about this practise. Hell's Teeth, we even have children's bodies pulled out of rivers, having expired as "child sacrifices" in THIS country?

Is the FMG not committed by the elderly "sages" of the community, presumably to make a living.

Awful! Dreadful! Shouldn't be allowed!

Let's have a Vote. On a show of hands, who is in favour of Female mutilation?

None.

Then explain why it is perfectly legal in our own society for women to have their bosoms sliced open for the purpose of inserting foreign objects.

When did you complain to anyone about that?

oftenwrong wrote:
Then explain why it is perfectly legal in our own society for women to have their bosoms sliced open for the purpose of inserting foreign objects.

Plastic surgery procedures are undertaken by consenting adults in sterile conditions (with rare exceptions) with anaesthetic. Female genital mutilation is done to young girls without them being given a choice.

Having your clitoris cut off, and your vagina sewn back up - possibly needing to be cut open again on marriage - by someone unqualified, in less than sterile surroundings, without anaesthic is not the same as choosing a cosmetic surgical procedure.

The Evening Standard today reported that over 2,000 women had sought treatment in London hospitals for complications connectec with FGM: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An estimated 135 million women around the world have undergone FGM. With rising levels of education, literacy and escape from poverty, there is hope that this will decrease in future generations.

astra wrote:I watched a programme on this in 1984!

I very nearly put my foot through the TV!!

.

It obviously made a lasting impression on you. I can totally see why...

Maybe the difference is that some Western women choose to have breast implants, while poor young girls in countries such as Somalia are forced to have their bodies mutilated?

It might be a good idea to reflect on the courageous stance taken by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somalian woman who sought and obtained political asylum in the Netherlands, where she became an MP. She now lives in the USA.
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Free Will is a wonderful thing. It allows pubescent females in OUR society to get stinking drunk in the Town Centre, and expose themselves in a manner that invites rape. It's the fashion. Breast implants are also the current fashion, as were the wasp-waists of the Victorian era which obliged ladies to wear corsets laced so tight as to make them faint. Which they did voluntarily because it was the custom.

What do we here know of the pressures upon young African girls to conform to accepted practices within THEIR society? For us, breast imnplants are the norm, for them it's mutilation. Sauce for the Goose.

As novakb has asked, it would probably be sensible if posters would watch the short ‘Newsnight’ video before commenting. It starts at about 19:50 into the programme:-
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I have watched it. FGM has been practised by both Christians and Moslems in Egypt and pre-dates both religions, but it's been illegal in that country for the past four years.

The 'midwife' in the programme, who performs FGM illegally, claims that it makes girls grow taller! In reality, it has no benefits whatsoever and has caused deaths. Since the practice has been banned, the number of deaths has increased, because it's being carried out by back-street practitioners.

Western females can choose whether or not to get drunk in town centres at night or to have breast implants. FGM has nothing to do with Free Will. 10-year-old girls are forced to have this mutilation, they are held down and gagged. Once mutilated, those females can never achieve orgasm.

Obviously the practice of mutilation is abhorrent to our Society, and none of us is likely to defend it. Nevertheless, we don't come to the discussion entirely blameless, as former slave traders. This is one more example of control games played by whoever happens to dominate at the time.

Victorian missionaries did a lot of damage in Africa, imposing their Christian teachings over the top of tribal custom, which results today in repeated massacres in the Sudan (which has just divided in half) and in Nigeria. It is convenient for our consciences to regard them as misguided zealots but the reality is that many of our customs appal them as much as we abhor some of their less appealing habits.

Fatuous generalisations like, "Western females can choose whether or not to get drunk in town centres at night or to have breast implants" conveniently disregard Peer Pressure which neutralises the element of choice. Teenage girls always look to each other for behavioural conformity within the Society to which they belong.

"Everybody else is doing it" can be both license and obligation.

As many as 100,000 women in Britain have undergone female genital mutilations, with medics in the UK offering to carry out the illegal procedure on girls as young as 10:-

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If this is true Ivan, then said "medics" who cannot be "real people" should be run out of this country at the point of a sword!

How convenient it must be to the closet Racists to light upon a custom of those dirty foreigners which no enlightened British person could accept. The newspapers are flying a banner beneath which all right-thinking Fascists can unite against the immigrant horde.

Today's Editorial in the Sunday Times could be used by the BNP or English Defence League as a Mission Statement ....

"When people from these mainly African countries come to Britain they should leave behind those practices which, like witchcraft, forced marriages and honour killings, have no place here. They must integrate and abide by British laws. Cultural diversity has its limits as Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, has pointed out. Female genital mutilation goes well beyond those limits. It is unacceptable and it must be stopped."

Oswald Mosely, we salute your indefatigable heritage.

Right now, these "practices" are illegal in Britain.


Because someone with non British heritage practices them in Britain does not make the practice (FGM, Honor Killing, Killing Witches - usually children and Child Sacrifice) legal here because it is legal in their homeland.

When they come here, our laws are there to protect the victim as much as the person comitting the offence and should be utilised to their full extent

Before jumping on a bandwagon, it's sensible to check who is driving.

True OW, and we could go on all night about "wrongs" being performed/permitted

The selling of lorry loads ofcharity given food aid in Mombassa's main market for example. Been going on for 50 years that I know of.

How convenient it must be to the closet Racists to light upon a custom of those dirty foreigners which no enlightened British person could accept. The newspapers are flying a banner beneath which all right-thinking Fascists can unite against the immigrant horde.

Does this mean British citizens become second class citizens? In other words, there are laws only native Britons must follow and foreigners are exempt? For instance, the involuntarily mutilation and torture of another human being? Because this is what would happen.

Yes, because you are British, you are not allowed to harm others, but if you happen to be an Aztec living in Britain, we must respect your cultural tradition of plunging an obsidian knife into the chest of an innocent victim and ripping out his heart. To suggest blood sacrifice is murder and thus illegal is admitting we are closet racists.

Same with FGM.

Apart from our neighbour, Cuauhtémoc, Aztecs are a bit light on the ground in suburban Britain.

It is never difficult to whip "public opinion" into a frenzy of distaste at the habits of Foreigners. Which is what makes it suspect to suddenly pick up on a heathen practice which has been known about for at least two hundred years.

Why now? Who's behind the flare-up at this particular moment, and what are their real motives?

The Blair government introduced "Managed News" and it's probably here to stay.

Apart from our neighbour, Cuauhtémoc, Aztecs are a bit light on the ground in suburban Britain.

True, you won't find many Aztecs in Britain, but my point is still made. In order to allow certain customs to exist within a particular culture - in this case, Britain's - then exceptions to the law have to be made. That turns the native population into second class citizens. A nation and a people have the sovereign right to protect and defend its own culture and ways of doing things.

Why now? Who's behind the flare-up at this particular moment, and what are their real motives?

I don't know if I would call it a "flare-up," but in my opinion, it doesn't matter why now or who is behind it.

This reminds me of some of the attacks people have made against Abraham Lincoln freeing the slaves. Did he free them because he thought slavery was immoral? No ... they were freed for political reasons. BUT, they were still freed. I don't think any slaves planted their feet inside their shanties and said, "Nope, I'm not leaving. I'll continue being a slave until I know why I'm being freed!"

" it doesn't matter why now or who is behind it. "

That's a remarkably unthinking statement, coming from a thoughtful person.
If a fascist pressure-group make propaganda out of a public behaviour issue, it very much does matter. The evidence of 1936 to 1940 is that genuine public concern can be milked for nefarious purposes.

Years ago in Britain we had public-order problems from a right-wing group of trouble-makers calling themselves The National Front. They seem to be making a come-back, with candidates in local Council elections and for elected Mayor of some Cities. Perhaps a coincidence.

Hello novakb ,

The purpose of female genital mutilation is to cause the woman no joy or even pain during sex.

If sex is painful, or at least unenjoyable, then women will be less tempted to stray from husbands. Ergo, female genital mutilation is a way that men in the society can keep their women "chaste.". In other words, mutilation is the modern day chasity belt.

It's a barbaric custom carried out by women b/c it's the only thing they know to do.

this "operation" is to remove any pleasure from the act of love-making.
It is also thought to encourage fidelity as there is no longer a desire for sexual pleasure.
And yes, this does give males more authority over women.

Culture or Programming?

these mothers and grandmothers had it done to them previously
and Stockholm syndromed as they are they cannot help themselves
from transmitting this meme to the next generation.

male circumcision= less sensitivity=delayed ejaculation= more control of himself and the female for male
female mutilation/clitorectomy = less or no orgasms=frustration= equals control by male partner

these practices were set up and instituted by the original patriarchs
in order to depose and destroy the previous matriarchal paradigm

and like the monkeys in the cage who are conditioned to beat up any of their number for climbing a ladder
it only takes 3 or 4 generations for the memetic virus to spread on its own .

That's a remarkably unthinking statement, coming from a thoughtful person.

I'm sure you've heard the expression: "Even a broken clock is right twice per day." Why is this expression applicable? Well ...

If a fascist pressure-group make propaganda out of a public behaviour issue, it very much does matter.

Assuming a fascist pressure group (the broken clock) is behind the "propaganda," even fascists can be right once in awhile.

The evidence of 1936 to 1940 is that genuine public concern can be milked for nefarious purposes.

Here you make an indirect reference to Hitler, but one must also be aware of the reductio ad hitlerum fallacy. While Hitler certainly was evil and certainly a fascist, that doesn't mean everything he and the Nazis did should be shunned based on that fact. Hitler and the Nazis did quite a bit, from build the first "interstate" highway system to being the first to understand the dangers of smoking. We certainly can't shun carriageways or the dangers of smoking simply because a fascist was the first to suggest or implement these ideas.

The same holds true for the idea of FGM. In a society where even spanking children has come under scrutiny, allowing adults to willfully mutilate and, by extension, torture children simply because "they have different customs" is patently unconscionable. Being a foreigner should not give someone a free pass to ignore the law. This is not something questionable like banning the burqa or building a mosque near Ground Zero. This is deliberate and premeditated harm to a child ... and it IS harm, and it IS painful, and stays painful for the rest of the girl's life. Allowing such a practice denies the girl both civil rights and her liberty. How can anyone be against something like waterboarding suspected terrorists in Guantanamo while standing by and allowing FGM being done to innocent little girls? The fear of fascism is simply not a compelling enough reason to even consider letting the practice continue in Britain, America, or anywhere else where freedom is considered the cornerstone of our society.

There will always be rules and laws even in the "free world." We, as a society and as individuals, have to actually THINK about which laws are for the benefit of freedom and which laws merely restrict freedom. I do not believe that a law against - or even a political campaign against - a practice that fundamentally denies the freedom of children NOT to be subjected to an often brutal and painful procedure benefits the cause of fascism. I fail to see how this would be any more fascistic than laws against rape, murder, torture, or assault.

Assuming that you're correct about some things being right for a wrong reason, you're likely to find yourself voting in some very strange company one of these days.

"Yeah, we voted Mussolini because we use trains a lot. (Sorry about Ethiopia, but stuff happens)"

This eyeopening video is about Nancy, a Kenyan girl, genital mutilation and local women fighting back.

It won a 2012 Webby and the People's Choice Award. (30mins long)

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"When people from these mainly African countries come to Britain they should leave behind those practices which, like witchcraft, forced marriages and honour killings, have no place here. They must integrate and abide by British laws. Cultural diversity has its limits as Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, has pointed out. Female genital mutilation goes well beyond those limits. It is unacceptable and it must be stopped."

Sunday Times 22 April 2012

(Translation: Wogs Out!)

Isn't it just!

An estimated 20,000 girls in the UK are at risk of FGM. This makes it a child protection issue here in the UK.

The figure of 20,000 is large. Indeed it is a child protection issue and stricter measures should be taken into consideration here. I was in a child protection meeting last weekend to learn that every 1 in 10 children is sexually abused in the UK. Be it any culture and any form of abuse in respect to dealing with children and their safety, it should be stopped.

People may be surprised to learn that there is a contrary view: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks for that link OW - food for thought.

Almost every time FGM is mentioned on the www someone comes straight in with the (very cogent) case for also banning male circumcision ('MGM') - and then the debates on FGM tend to lose their impetus and veer off on a tangent.

WHY must protagonists assume (if that is indeed what they genuinely do - I sometimes wonder if it's not always as straightforward as that) that fighting to stop FGM is mysteriously contrary to concerns for all children who suffer medically unrequired interventions? It isn't.

It's really very sad that we can't just agree that different lobbyists will have different, but mutually supportive, points of focus. What's the problem?

So having said that, there are several HMG e-petitions concerned with stopping MGM - you can easily choose the one/s you like best - and there is also one signed now by nearly two thousand people to STOP #FGM in Britain: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] . It runs until 25 June 2013.

It would be tremendously helpful if any British citizen / resident who shares our horror of FGM would please sign this HMG e-petition and ask others to do the same.

You may also like to read more about the background to this #NoFGM lobby here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] You are also very welcome to follow @NoFGM1 on Twitter [http://paper.li/NoFGM1/1347915392] , and to read the (free) #NoFGM Daily News, here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - You'd perhaps be surprised to see the extent of developments in this field quite recently.
Thank you,
Hilary

Sure. Go ahead!

Christmas Eve may be as appropriate as any other time to blow your personal trumpet.

Compliments of the Season, hilaryburrage. Computer-generated Opinion must be as good as any of the alternatives.

Just for info, oftenwrong, I don't write #NoFGM News - it's a widely diverse daily collation of reports and events, not just 'opinions', which I simply keep an unpaid eye on. A (free) service, if you like.

Do you have a real name btw? People who want to be unpleasant should at least have the courtesy / courage not to be anonymous, don't you agree?

I'll be happy to respond to any further views you offer me - up to others how they feel, of course - if and (only) when you have a proper identity. Thanks.