The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?

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The credit crunch, a global crisis or not ?

This was the title of the longest running, active subject on the now discontinued MSN message boards, and when those boards were discontinued the thread was transferred to the newly created Cutting Edge board in March 2011.

OK so who will begin then ? ( Mark III )

In normal circumstances you might say it's our fault for voting them in, but nobody voted for this incestuous Tory-led mutual admiration society.

Maybe the fact that no party won enough votes to govern outright demonstrates what a divided nation the UK is?

There may be trouble ahead......


In other third world economies a civil war might be the order of the day!

oftenwrong wrote:In normal circumstances you might say it's our fault for voting them in, but nobody voted for this incestuous Tory-led mutual admiration society.

I do feel sorry for many Lib/Dem voters who thought they was voting against the Tory party only to find themselves in a marriage of convenience. but was it not Abraham Lincoln who said......A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead.....Then some else pointed out... Tories are a party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.

Stox 16 wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:In normal circumstances you might say it's our fault for voting them in, but nobody voted for this incestuous Tory-led mutual admiration society.

I do feel sorry for many Lib/Dem voters who thought they was voting against the Tory party only to find themselves in a marriage of convenience. but was it not Abraham Lincoln who said......A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead.....Then some else pointed out... Tories are a party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.

Labour had an opportunity also to form a coalition with the Lid Dems; but by all accounts were awkward and unreceptive to the idea......methinks maybe Labour realised how much of a mess the country's economy was in and simply didn't have the balls to take up the challenge - happy to sit it out, still getting nice fat mps salaries for doing nothing but point at the tories!

sickchip wrote:

Stox 16 wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:In normal circumstances you might say it's our fault for voting them in, but nobody voted for this incestuous Tory-led mutual admiration society.

I do feel sorry for many Lib/Dem voters who thought they was voting against the Tory party only to find themselves in a marriage of convenience. but was it not Abraham Lincoln who said......A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead.....Then some else pointed out... Tories are a party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.

Labour had an opportunity also to form a coalition with the Lid Dems; but by all accounts were awkward and unreceptive to the idea......methinks maybe Labour realised how much of a mess the country's economy was in and simply didn't have the balls to take up the challenge - happy to sit it out, still getting nice fat mps salaries for doing nothing but point at the tories!

....no response!? Oh dear! The truth hurts, eh?

What's the correct way to respond to a "What if ..." question?

bobby wrote:Dear o Dear Stox, I never realised we where so bad off, I think I will go and fall on my pen knife.

Keep up the good work Stox your posts are real eye openers. Lets hope the right eyes are watching. Bob.

Thanks bobby. its very hard to find any real good economic news at all right now

sickchip wrote:

sickchip wrote:

Stox 16 wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:In normal circumstances you might say it's our fault for voting them in, but nobody voted for this incestuous Tory-led mutual admiration society.

I do feel sorry for many Lib/Dem voters who thought they was voting against the Tory party only to find themselves in a marriage of convenience. but was it not Abraham Lincoln who said......A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead.....Then some else pointed out... Tories are a party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.

Labour had an opportunity also to form a coalition with the Lid Dems; but by all accounts were awkward and unreceptive to the idea......methinks maybe Labour realised how much of a mess the country's economy was in and simply didn't have the balls to take up the challenge - happy to sit it out, still getting nice fat mps salaries for doing nothing but point at the tories!

....no response!? Oh dear! The truth hurts, eh?

I see little point on speculating on what may of been sickchip. as for a coalition with the Lib/Dem's..... Well I have seen this in action with the Lib/Lab coalition back in the 1970s so thanks but no thanks for me on that one.

As for taking up the challenge.... Well they did..... but lost the GE. not that the Lib/Dem/Tories won it either. as for pointing the finger at the Tories. Well I do not think the Labour party or any other party not in the Coalition has to do very much of that...... as the Tories are doing a very fine job of cocking up the economy on there own.

True Blue wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:Nobody can be unaware of events in the Financial markets. Foreign Banks (which in the context includes British ones) are quietly removing what money they can from Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy etcetera, just to be on the safe side. Long-term loans are not quite so easy to recall. The British Government has contingency plans to assist its citizens who live abroad, if necessary.

On the level of individuals, should anyone pull up the drawbridge? Are "Savings" safe anywhere? Is there any financial Institution anywhere that you think you can trust with your money just at the moment?

I wouldn't trust UK financial institutions... collectively they carry more debt than any other first world nation. Perhaps the UK government is enforcing those austerity measures on its citizens so that it has scope to increase government debt via bailouts for those debt heavy financial corporations.



You may want to read the article from which the picture is sourced. Total British debt is at 950% of GDP.

you thought that was bad? well the Tories are very busy adding to it.

Britain owed £967bn in October 2011, up from £837bn a year earlier, according to the ONS [read the full release]. It is likely to hit £1 trillion in 2012-13, given that economists forecast a need to borrow more than £122bn in the 2011/12 financial year. but that past that forcast and hit £127bn TORY FAILURE

he OBR forecast in April 2011 was for UK debt to peak at 71% of GDP in 2013-14. That doesn't include interventions aimed at stabilising the banking system, where most of the money should be recouped. With those extras included, the total figure is £2.3 trillion. Tory failure

"the Tories are doing a very fine job of cocking up the economy on there own. "

Which should silence those critics of the Labour leadership who want to see some fireworks.


"All things come to he who waits"

Literal meaning - in praise of patience.


Used, but probably not originated by Violet Fane (1843-1905) in her poem Tout vient qui sait attendre.


'Ah, all things come to those who wait,'
(I say these words to make me glad),
But something answers soft and sad,
'They come, but often come too late.'

It's now ten years since many European currencies were subsumed into the Euro, during which the national banks of those countries have stood ready to exchange "old" money for Euros.

The German Central Bank of course knows how much they have been asked to convert, and there are apparently Three Trillion Deutschmarks still out there somewhere in notes and coin.

That's an impressive amount of mattress stuffing, and explains why some Governments are quite happy to keep on printing it.

oftenwrong wrote:It's now ten years since many European currencies were subsumed into the Euro, during which the national banks of those countries have stood ready to exchange "old" money for Euros.

The German Central Bank of course knows how much they have been asked to convert, and there are apparently Three Trillion Deutschmarks still out there somewhere in notes and coin.

That's an impressive amount of mattress stuffing, and explains why some Governments are quite happy to keep on printing it.

Well the more you print the more we will have to pay back.

oftenwrong wrote:"the Tories are doing a very fine job of cocking up the economy on there own. "

Which should silence those critics of the Labour leadership who want to see some fireworks.


"All things come to he who waits"

Literal meaning - in praise of patience.


Used, but probably not originated by Violet Fane (1843-1905) in her poem Tout vient qui sait attendre.


'Ah, all things come to those who wait,'
(I say these words to make me glad),
But something answers soft and sad,
'They come, but often come too late.'

so very true oftenwrong

The assumption must be that a lot of currency notes will never be presented to the Central Bank, because they're buried in the ground - so the cost of producing those notes is limited to the ink and paper. Unlike hoards of gold coins that are occasionally unearthed, which represent actual value hitherto denied to commerce.

Well let put Tory economics in some dead easy lalanguage.

What we have here is like some household cutting it bills and food down (Nat debt) while out of working with no income (growth) coming in and borrowing on the credit card (borrowing) in the vain hope of getting a job. sooner or later you will either have to pay back the credit card and slow down your cutting back or you will have not petrol of food left in with to keep looking for work.

Stox 16 wrote:Well let put Tory economics in some dead easy lalanguage.....

Aye, we supped some ale the neet!

oftenwrong wrote:

Stox 16 wrote:Well let put Tory economics in some dead easy lalanguage.....

Aye, we supped some ale the neet!

ha ha like it. when I look at the economic data of the lost 18 months i find myself need a good drink. i cannot even remember the last government who has done so very little in helping the economy as this one. its just utterly amazing.

" i cannot even remember the last government who has done so very little in helping the economy as this one. its just utterly amazing. "

Incredible but true.

oftenwrong wrote:" i cannot even remember the last government who has done so very little in helping the economy as this one. its just utterly amazing. "

Incredible but true.

yet why seek power then do nothing at all Oftenwrong? its hard to understand in my view

For the traditional Tory, Power is an end in itself. They feel themselves to be the natural Leaders. Some families have had several centuries in which to cultivate that understanding.

oftenwrong wrote:For the traditional Tory, Power is an end in itself. They feel themselves to be the natural Leaders. Some families have had several centuries in which to cultivate that understanding.

True oftenwrong. but this lot do not act like natural leaders in my view

The gathering financial storm is just one effect of corporate power unbound

From an article by George Monbiot:-

“What have governments learned from the financial crisis? Nothing. Actually, that’s too generous. The lessons learned are counter-lessons, anti-knowledge, new policies that could scarcely be better designed to ensure the crisis recurs, this time with added momentum and fewer remedies. And the financial crisis is just one of the multiple crises – in tax collection, public spending, public health and, above all, ecology – that the same counter-lessons accelerate.

All these crises arise from the same cause. Players with huge power and global reach are released from democratic restraint. This happens because of a fundamental corruption at the core of politics. In almost every nation the interests of economic elites tend to weigh more heavily with governments than do those of the electorate. Banks, corporations and landowners wield an unaccountable power, which works with a nod and a wink within the political class.

Two dire shifts have been happening simultaneously. Governments have been removing laws that restrict banks and corporations, arguing that globalisation makes states weak and effective legislation impossible. They say we should trust those who wield economic power to regulate themselves. The same governments devise draconian new laws to reinforce elite power. Corporations are given the rights of legal persons. Their property rights are enhanced. Those who protest against them are subject to policing and surveillance – the kind that’s more appropriate to dictatorships than democracies. Oh, state power still exists all right – when it’s wanted.”

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/03/financial-crisis-corporate-power-george-monbiot

QUOTE: "Corporations are given the rights of legal persons."

It's of little use crying over spilt milk. The notion of Corporations as a defined identity - separate from the individuals who run it or simply invest in it - became a legal reality about three hundred years ago and most Countries have now adopted the concept. The idea is to encourage risk-taking in business in the knowledge that potential failure would not necessarily wipe-out everyone concerned.

It goes without saying that such accumulations of self-interest enjoy the support of well-paid legal and financial advisors.

There may also be a significant overlapping of Corporate interests with National interests.

ICYMI: Iceland (The nation, not the frozen-food store) has fully reimbursed the UK the full £4.6billion that was owed to British depositors in Landsbanki - whose losses Gordon Brown had covered after the credit crisis. Many of the initial losers had been local Councils.

Can we expect the present Chancellor to persuade other defaulting bankers to respond in a similar fashion timeously?

Don’t blame China for these global economic jitters

From an article by Ha-Joon Chang:-

2016 was supposed to be the year when the world economy would recover fully from the 2008 crash. The US would lead this recovery, and not far behind, the story goes, have been Britain and Ireland. Hit harder than the US by the financial crisis, they have, however, recovered because they kept their nerve and stuck to the right policies. Spending cuts, focused on wasteful welfare spending, accelerated job creation by making it more difficult for people to live off the taxpayer. They sensibly didn’t give in to the banker-bashers and chose not to over-regulate the financial sector.

Those who put forward that narrative are now trying to blame China in advance for the coming economic woes. Osborne has been at the forefront, warning of a “dangerous cocktail of new threats” in which the devaluation of the Chinese currency and the fall in oil prices (both in large part due to China’s economic slowdown) figured most prominently.

China is an important factor in the global economy, but the US (22.5%) the eurozone (17%) and Japan (7%) together account for nearly half of the world economy. Unless you are a developing economy whose exports are mainly made up of primary commodities destined for China, you cannot blame your economic ills on its slowdown. There has never been a real recovery from the 2008 crisis in North America and Western Europe. According to the IMF, at the end of 2015 inflation-adjusted income per head was lower than the pre-crisis peak in 11 out of 20 of those countries. We have wasted the past seven years propping up a bankrupt economic model.

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/21/dont-blame-china-global-west-economic-recovery-asset-bubbles

I knew there had to be a reason for Brexit.