The Brits and the USA

by whitbyforklift Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

The only difference between us and our best friends across the pond is the words we and they say about the same thing.
For example we say boot they say trunk/we say bonnet,they say hood/we say rubber,they say eraser/we say negotiate they say BOMB THE B.......S. :afraid:

by bambu Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:02 am

="RockOnBrother wrote

Good place for child molesters, rapists, armed robbers, and other criminals who commit violence against persons to spend the remainder of their lives.

And murderers.
...all convicteds.

...but not their whole lives for some of the above offences.
Two Aussie kids held up a US bank...the bank they attended every day to bank the store's money, they spoke in their Aussie accents to the staff every day.

Duh!
Weren't hard to find. Smile

Don't think they actually had a gun...but a note, and the fingers in the pocket to look like a gun thing.
They got 8 years.
They were lucky.

What if;

A woman is convicted of murdering her baby, the DNA evidence presented to the court by the prosecutors clearly showing guilt.
Should she be put to death by the state? instead of a life prison sentence.

by ROB Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:58 pm

bambu wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Good place for child molesters, rapists, armed robbers, and other criminals who commit violence against persons to spend the remainder of their lives.
And murderers.

...but not their whole lives for some of the above offences.
Two Aussie kids held up a US bank...the bank they attended every day to bank the store's money, they spoke in their Aussie accents to the staff every day.

Duh!
Weren't hard to find.

Don't think they actually had a gun...but a note, and the fingers in the pocket to look like a gun thing.
They got 8 years.

That’s about right. The leader of a bank robbery gang featured on “Masterminds” got something like 52 months, and the rest of the gang got something like 18 months to thirty two months. What kept their sentences to a minimum was that they committed no other crime except bank robbery. No threats (as the Aussies’ fingers posed), no armed robbery, just cutting holes in banks’ roofs at night, descending to the banks’ vaults, “withdrawing” hundreds of thousands of dollars, and escaping into the night. When they were caught during maybe their sixteenth such “withdrawal”, all were unarmed, and all surrendered peacefully.

What saved the Aussie kids from 30 year sentences was the fact that, even though they pretended to be armed, they really were not. Fingers vs. handguns saved them 22 years.

bambu wrote:
They were lucky.

They were smart to a degree. Can’t convict a fellow of armed robbery if he’s armed with a finger.

bambu wrote:
What if;

A woman is convicted of murdering her baby, the DNA evidence presented to the court by the prosecutors clearly showing guilt.
Should she be put to death by the state? instead of a life prison sentence.

Don’t know. As a parent, I get pretty incensed when hearing of parents murdering their own children, so I wouldn’t be an objective jury member. Can a juror recuse himself?

by oftenwrong Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:38 pm

Lawyers get rich on the nuances of criminal behaviour. Some time in the future, Psychiatry may combine with Robotics to produce an infallible test for latent criminal tendencies in the unborn child.

That should reduce the Courts' burden.

by trevorw2539 Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:38 pm

- RockOnBrother

Here is the Law:

“Whosoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (YHVH Elohim, recorded in Genesis 9:6).

As a Christian (sometimes), it is my voluntary duty to support death penalty laws that shed the blood of those who shed man’s blood.

As a follower of Christs teaching I would never voluntarily support the death penalty, though it might be deserved. However I recognise the right of society to punish the guilty by their chosen method.
When a christian forgives it is a personal thing, but civil justice still has to be done, for the maintainance of law and order. The spiritual part is personal forgiveness, the human part is society's justice.

There are some wise words in the Sermon on the Mount. Apart from the 'Blessed are they...................' there are teachings on how to behave when hurt. A codicil to the Murder commandment, A codicil to the Adultery commandment, A codicil to the 'Eye for an Eye................ commandment and the rest mainly on how to live by faith.

You are about the most bloodthirsty follower of Yeshua I have ever 'met' RoC. silent

Jesus said to his disciples after just being betrayed 'A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that you love one another. By this shall all men know you are my disciples'.

Civil Justice in this life is down to the Civil Authorites. In the other 'life' - God. silent

by bambu Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:16 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
bambu wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Good place for child molesters, rapists, armed robbers, and other criminals who commit violence against persons to spend the remainder of their lives.
And murderers.

...but not their whole lives for some of the above offences.
Two Aussie kids held up a US bank...the bank they attended every day to bank the store's money, they spoke in their Aussie accents to the staff every day.

Duh!
Weren't hard to find.

Don't think they actually had a gun...but a note, and the fingers in the pocket to look like a gun thing.
They got 8 years.

That’s about right. The leader of a bank robbery gang featured on “Masterminds” got something like 52 months, and the rest of the gang got something like 18 months to thirty two months. What kept their sentences to a minimum was that they committed no other crime except bank robbery. No threats (as the Aussies’ fingers posed), no armed robbery, just cutting holes in banks’ roofs at night, descending to the banks’ vaults, “withdrawing” hundreds of thousands of dollars, and escaping into the night. When they were caught during maybe their sixteenth such “withdrawal”, all were unarmed, and all surrendered peacefully.

What saved the Aussie kids from 30 year sentences was the fact that, even though they pretended to be armed, they really were not. Fingers vs. handguns saved them 22 years.

bambu wrote:
They were lucky.

They were smart to a degree. Can’t convict a fellow of armed robbery if he’s armed with a finger.

bambu wrote:
What if;

A woman is convicted of murdering her baby, the DNA evidence presented to the court by the prosecutors clearly showing guilt.
Should she be put to death by the state? instead of a life prison sentence.

Don’t know. As a parent, I get pretty incensed when hearing of parents murdering their own children, so I wouldn’t be an objective jury member. Can a juror recuse himself?

Wouldn't such a mother be a beast deserving of frying in the electric chair, having killed a baby, the baby's blood found on the floor of the car?

by ROB Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:34 am

bambu wrote:
Wouldn't such a mother be a beast deserving of frying in the electric chair, having killed a baby, the baby's blood found on the floor of the car?

Definitely. Time for one last dance with Ol’ Sparky. If they’d let me, I’d personally spruce up the old gal so she would look real pretty for that last dance.

That’s what I meant when I said I couldn’t be an objective juror on this type of case.

by **Ivan** Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:16 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:-
Time for one last dance with Ol’ Sparky. If they’d let me, I’d personally spruce up the old gal so she would look real pretty for that last dance.

trevorw2539 wrote:-
You are about the most bloodthirsty follower of Yeshua I have ever 'met', Rock

My thoughts exactly. So much enthusiasm for judicial murder from a Christian! If you must support the killing of people, isn’t it enough to humanely dispatch criminals by injection? Why all this unhealthy and distasteful enthusiasm for burning people to death? That doesn’t sound like justice to me, more like vengeance, and I wonder how it squares with Romans 12:19?

If Texas was a country rather than just a state, it would rank seventh in the world for the number of executions it carries out. Okay, it’s a large state, but is it so lawless? And if it is, the death penalty doesn’t seem to be proving much of a deterrent if it has to be used so frequently. No doubt those with the money to pay for the best lawyers don’t end up anywhere near Death Row. But if you don’t have the capital, you get the punishment.

After the distressing Troy Davis case in Georgia last year, we could shortly have another probable miscarriage of justice, this time in Texas. Linda Carty, a British citizen and primary school teacher, is due to be executed soon after “a catastrophically flawed trial”:-
http://www.reprieve.org.uk/cases/lindacarty/

I’m proud that I live in a country which abolished the death penalty nearly fifty years ago under the Labour government of Harold Wilson. I don’t want the state committing cold-blooded murder on my behalf, and abolition has prevented any number of innocent people from being put to death in the UK. I note that five US states have abolished the death penalty quite recently (New Mexico, Illinois, New Jersey, New York and Connecticut), making a total of 17 where it no longer exists. In a number of others it remains on the statute book but is rarely, if ever, used.

I see the death penalty as a tool of tyrants like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein and Ahmadinejad, not something to be associated with modern Western democracies. According to Amnesty International, 139 countries have abolished the death penalty. It’s no longer used anywhere in Europe, so it seems that it’s only in certain states of the USA, most frequently in Texas, that this barbaric practice survives in the so-called civilised world.

by oftenwrong Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:10 pm

The moral aspect can be discussed indefinitely, but in practical terms the obvious and fatal flaw in the death sentence is that it is irreversible.

The Appeal Court records of England show numerous examples of life-sentences being quashed, and the defendants freed, with financial compensation. Most numerous seem to have involved Ulster "terrorists" convicted on doubtful evidence.

by Shirina Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:50 pm

The moral aspect can be discussed indefinitely, but in practical terms the obvious and fatal flaw in the death sentence is that it is irreversible.

Well, OW, I'm not so sure that's a good argument in this case.

The reason being is that time is irreversible, as well, and every second a man spends behind bars is a second that he cannot recover. I suppose as long as one is alive, one can still cling to hope that some new piece of evidence will emerge, some witness will begin talking, or perhaps the real criminal will admit to his crime ... but after so long, that hope is so distant as to be torturous to even contemplate its possibility. And that is assuming the inmate is actually innocent. Most are not. If you know you're guilty, the hope of being set free is non-existent.

For a person like me, a lifetime prison sentence would be worse than death. I'm sure I'm not alone. The prospect of spending the rest of my life behind bars would likely unhinge me in the most literal sense. I would go mad. If I were innocent to boot, that insanity would likely deepen. Death would be a kindness ... so is the death penalty always barbaric? Not in the least, not for those who consider it self-euthanasia rather than punishment. If you have nothing left to live for, the Grim Reaper is a welcomed visitor.

This isn't to offer support for the death penalty, mind you, but merely an offering from a different perspective.

by oftenwrong Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:00 pm

Shirina wrote:
The moral aspect can be discussed indefinitely, but in practical terms the obvious and fatal flaw in the death sentence is that it is irreversible.
Well, OW, I'm not so sure that's a good argument in this case.

The reason being is that time is irreversible, as well, and every second a man spends behind bars is a second that he cannot recover. I suppose as long as one is alive, one can still cling to hope that some new piece of evidence will emerge, some witness will begin talking, or perhaps the real criminal will admit to his crime ... but after so long, that hope is so distant as to be torturous to even contemplate its possibility. And that is assuming the inmate is actually innocent. Most are not. If you know you're guilty, the hope of being set free is non-existent.

For a person like me, a lifetime prison sentence would be worse than death. I'm sure I'm not alone. The prospect of spending the rest of my life behind bars would likely unhinge me in the most literal sense. I would go mad. If I were innocent to boot, that insanity would likely deepen. Death would be a kindness ... so is the death penalty always barbaric? Not in the least, not for those who consider it self-euthanasia rather than punishment. If you have nothing left to live for, the Grim Reaper is a welcomed visitor.

This isn't to offer support for the death penalty, mind you, but merely an offering from a different perspective.

That comes out as abject surrender, and spits in the face of any torture victim who manages to stand fast.
You may well be correct in deciding that beyond a certain point, resistance is futile.
In which case there can never be victory for a conviction of Belief. In which case we are possibly all losers.

by ROB Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:01 pm

Ivan wrote:

RockOnBrother wrote:-
Time for one last dance with Ol’ Sparky. If they’d let me, I’d personally spruce up the old gal so she would look real pretty for that last dance.

trevorw2539 wrote:-
You are about the most bloodthirsty follower of Yeshua I have ever 'met', Rock
My thoughts exactly. So much enthusiasm for judicial murder…

The executions of Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas were judicial justice. The executions of James Byrd Jr. and Aubrey Hawkins were bestial murder.

Ivan wrote:
… from a Christian!

“Whosoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (YHVH Elohim, Genesis 9:6).

Ivan wrote:
If you must support the killing of people, isn’t it enough to humanely dispatch criminals by injection?

According to the US Supreme Court, it appears that this is so in most cases, although I have heard (no confirmation) that Utah allows condemned persons to choose firing squads.

I may have this wrong in some way, but euthanasia has in fact replaced Ol’ Sparky.

Ivan wrote:

Why all this unhealthy and distasteful enthusiasm for burning people to death?

The only unhealthy things in which I partake are fried foods. The executions of James Byrd Jr. and Aubrey Hawkins, neither of which was by burning, were distasteful at a minimum. The executions of the beasts that executed Byrd and Hawkins were not met with enthusiasm. Feelings of resolve, of completion, but no exultation. Definitely feelings of sadness for the victims, James Byrd Jr., who never finished the relatively short walk home from the party, and Aubrey Hawkins, who never returned home from his last shift protecting and serving the people of Irving and Texas.

Ivan wrote:
That doesn’t sound like justice to me…

It is justice in Texas.

Ivan wrote:
… I wonder how it squares with Romans 12:19?

Quite well.

“Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good” (Romans 12:9).

I abhor Lawrence Russell Brewer, evil personified, and George Rivas, evil personified.

Ivan wrote:
If Texas was a country rather than just a state, it would rank seventh in the world for the number of executions it carries out.

When all Texas follows Craig Watkins’ lead, Texas will probably go down a notch or two, as those who are guilty continue to be euthanized while those who should never have been convicted are exonerated.

Ivan wrote:
Okay, it’s a large state, but is it so lawless?

It’s less lawless without the presence of evil murderers.

Ivan wrote:
And if it is, the death penalty doesn’t seem to be proving much of a deterrent if it has to be used so frequently.

It’s a deterrent to Brewer and Rivas, who will murder no more.

Ivan wrote:
No doubt those with the money to pay for the best lawyers don’t end up anywhere near Death Row. But if you don’t have the capital, you get the punishment.

That’s an entirely different issue which transcends the death penalty and Texas. If a wealthy Englishman and an English laborer from Birmingham are accused of the exact same crime, under exactly the same circumstances, with the exact same evidence gathered and analyzed by the exact same investigators and analysts, the wealthy Englishman is far less likely to be convicted than the poor Englishman.

Ivan wrote:
… we could shortly have another probable miscarriage of justice, this time in Texas. Linda Carty, a British citizen and primary school teacher, is due to be executed soon after “a catastrophically flawed trial”:-
http://www.reprieve.org.uk/cases/lindacarty/

The Innocence Project needs to b flooded with letters from British citizens. This case is not about the penalty; it is bout innocence and guilt, and the lackadaisical manner in which Linda Carty was misrepresented.

by bambu Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:20 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
bambu wrote:
Wouldn't such a mother be a beast deserving of frying in the electric chair, having killed a baby, the baby's blood found on the floor of the car?

Definitely. Time for one last dance with Ol’ Sparky. If they’d let me, I’d personally spruce up the old gal so she would look real pretty for that last dance.

That’s what I meant when I said I couldn’t be an objective juror on this type of case.

But what if;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance

Azaria Chantel Loren Chamberlain (born 11 June 1980 in Mount Isa, Queensland, Australia) was a nine-week-old Australian baby girl, who disappeared on the night of 17 August 1980 on a family camping trip to Uluru (then known as Ayers Rock) in the Northern Territory. Her body was never found. Her parents, Lindy and Michael Chamberlain, reported that she had been taken from their tent by a dingo.

Subsequently, after a further investigation and a second inquest held in Darwin, Azaria's mother, Lindy Chamberlain was tried for murder. She was convicted of murder on 29 October 1982 and sentenced to life imprisonment. Azaria's father, Michael Chamberlain, was convicted as an accessory after the fact and given a suspended sentence.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/chamberlain/chamberlainhome.html

Soon the people of an entire continent would be choosing sides in a debate over whether the cry heard that night marked an astonishing and rare human fatality caused by Australia's wild dogs or was, rather, in the words of the man who would eventually prosecute her for murder, "a calculated, fanciful lie."
A jury of nine men and three women came to believe the latter story and convicted Lindy Chamberlain for the murder of her ten-week-old daughter, Azaria.

So off to the electric chair for frying would've gone Lindy.

Then, some years later, as Lindy was rotting in prison, a tourist fell off Uluru, and while the police were investigating they discovered near a dingo lair a little jacket exactly the same as the one Lindy said baby Azaria was wearing, they called her a liar at her trial.

http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/chamberlain-azaria-chantel-loren-9719

On 7 February 1986, after the discovery of the matinee-jacket, Lindy's sentence was remitted and she was released from gaol. A feature film, Evil Angels (A Cry in the Dark), was made next year. The royal commission conducted by Justice Trevor Morling reported on 2 June 1987 that there were 'serious doubts and questions as to the Chamberlains' guilt', and considered new evidence to be such that a trial judge would have been obliged to direct a jury to acquit them. On 15 September 1988 both convictions were quashed.

The 'baby blood' the govt pathologist stated was found in the car wasn't baby blood at all, but rust paint found in every car of that make and model.
...and/or other things that can give the same results.

It was a trial by media.

"Look at her, she's so cold-looking"
"They have a black coffin in their garage". [Pastor Chamberlain used it for a church play].
etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_media

by ROB Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:59 am

Bambu,

I’m aware of the story. Dingoes are top predators on the Australian continent and some of its islands, so they have no natural fear. Wolves in North America must face off with cougars (mountain lions) and bears. Lions in Southern Africa must face off with hyena packs. Both species know fear. By the way, sometimes bears are beaten off by wolf packs, and hyenas are often killed by lions, particularly male lions, so there is fear both ways.

I believe that Dingoes are almost as fearless as tigers in Bangladesh. It’s just that dingoes’ size normally precludes attacks on humans, whereas Bengal tigers’ size encourages such attacks.

On track with your point regarding capital punishment, this lady was erroneously convicted in an egregious aberration of justice. The penalty isn’t the issue here; rather, it’s a justice system visiting injustice upon a grieving mother and father. They should never been arrested, as the “evidence” against them didn’t even rise to reasonable suspicion, much less probable cause or guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Why in God’s name were these two even targeted for further investigation supposedly based on “trash” masquerading as “evidence?”

by **astradt1** Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:29 am

On track with your point regarding capital punishment, this lady was erroneously convicted in an egregious aberration of justice.

What an easy statement to make after extra evidence proving innocence had been found some years later.......Hindsight the most perfect sense!!!!

If there had been a death sentance in this case it is likely that the new evidence would have been to late to save the women......

Whats the use of a posthumous pardon Roc?

by **Ivan** Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:35 am

Rock. Utah abolished the firing squad as a method of execution in the 1980s, but it was last used in June 2010 to kill Ronnie Lee Gardner. As he'd been sentenced to death prior to its abolition, he was given a choice and opted to be shot rather than poisoned.

Execution is not justifiable on the grounds that it ensures that a criminal “will murder no more”, since very secure incarceration can ensure that doesn’t happen. It can’t even be justified on the morally reprehensible grounds of saving money; I’ve heard several reports that the legal process prior to an execution costs more than keeping a person in jail for life.

Your acceptance that a wealthy person is far less likely to be convicted – and therefore be eligible for the death penalty – makes me incredulous that you can support capital punishment. You accept that the ultimate penalty can all come down to a matter of money, but you are still prepared to accept the inconsistent outcomes to the judicial process that will arise.

As to the Australian baby and dingo case, the penalty most certainly is the issue!! Under your barbaric Texan system, Lindy Chamberlain would have been executed. Fortunately, Australia is more enlightened than Texas, and when the truth came out, the lady was released from prison.

I quoted Romans 12:19, you replied with Romans 12:9. The text I chose suggests that vengeance should be a matter for your god, not you. Your unhealthy preoccupation with the electric chair, even wanting to “spruce up the old gal” sounds like vengeance to me, not dispassionate justice.

You’ve recognised that injustices occur – that the rich are less likely to be convicted, and (in an earlier post) that Georgia probably executed an innocent man last September – yet you continue to support with enthusiasm a punishment which is irrevocable. I find that very difficult to understand.

by oftenwrong Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:26 pm

People's enjoyment of a good execution pre-dates the Christian Era by a couple of thousand years according to the scriptures.

Even now, a public hanging would fill Shea Stadium or Wembley Arena. All the theatricals surrounding a modern judicial killing are designed to avoid comparison with slaughtering a cow for its meat.

by bambu Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:42 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Bambu,

I’m aware of the story. Dingoes are top predators on the Australian continent and some of its islands, so they have no natural fear. Wolves in North America must face off with cougars (mountain lions) and bears. Lions in Southern Africa must face off with hyena packs. Both species know fear. By the way, sometimes bears are beaten off by wolf packs, and hyenas are often killed by lions, particularly male lions, so there is fear both ways.

I believe that Dingoes are almost as fearless as tigers in Bangladesh. It’s just that dingoes’ size normally precludes attacks on humans, whereas Bengal tigers’ size encourages such attacks.

On track with your point regarding capital punishment, this lady was erroneously convicted in an egregious aberration of justice. The penalty isn’t the issue here; rather, it’s a justice system visiting injustice upon a grieving mother and father. They should never been arrested, as the “evidence” against them didn’t even rise to reasonable suspicion, much less probable cause or guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Why in God’s name were these two even targeted for further investigation supposedly based on “trash” masquerading as “evidence?”

That was/is what happens when the govt and prosecutors go after people they think are guilty.

Inquests into baby Azaria's death are still going on to this day!

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3439161.htm

Feb 2012

A Royal Commission eventually quashed the Chamberlains’ convictions. A third inquest, 17 years ago, left an open finding on the cause of Azaria's death.

Outside court today Lindy Chamberlain-Creighton said she hoped this fourth inquest would now confirm a dingo had been responsible for the death. She wants Azaria's death certificate to reflect that.

LINDY CHAMBERLAIN-CREIGHTON: "It gives me hope this time that Australians will finally be warned and realise that dingoes are a dangerous animal and I also hope that this will give a final finding which closes the inquest into my daughter's death which so far has been standing open and unfinished".

----------------------------------------------------------

The Azaria/Lindy Chamberlain case turned me right off blindly trusting the govt, prosecutors, police, govt pathologists, in fact everyone in the world.

Then when the internet came along I discovered this;

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

April 8, 2012 : 289 EXONERATED

Government Misconduct
Some wrongful convictions are caused by honest mistakes. But in far too many cases, the very people who are responsible for ensuring truth and justice — law enforcement officials and prosecutors — lose sight of these obligations and instead focus solely on securing convictions.

The cases of wrongful convictions uncovered by DNA testing are filled with evidence of negligence, fraud or misconduct by prosecutors or police departments.

Unreliable or Improper Forensic Science
Since the late 1980s, DNA analysis has helped identify the guilty and exonerate the innocent nationwide. While DNA testing was developed through extensive scientific research at top academic centers, many other forensic techniques � such as hair microscopy, bite mark comparisons, firearm tool mark analysis and shoe print comparisons � have never been subjected to rigorous scientific evaluation. Meanwhile, forensics techniques that have been properly validated � such as serology, commonly known as blood typing � are sometimes improperly conducted or inaccurately conveyed in trial testimony.

In some cases, forensic analysts have fabricated results or engaged in other misconduct.

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/austin-crime-lab-worker-says-she-was.html

Former Austin crime lab scientist says reports issued without testing

A fired scientist at the Austin PD crime lab is making serious, public allegations, including that the lab issued reports in drug cases without performing any lab testing. Reported the Austin Statesman ("Fired scientist files complaint against Austin police crime lab," Jan. 12):

by ROB Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:11 pm

Bambu,

Perhaps you’ll appreciate this.

Dallas DA on Exonerating Innocents

Craig Watkins on Preventing Wrongful Convictions

by bambu Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:58 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Bambu,

Perhaps you’ll appreciate this.

Dallas DA on Exonerating Innocents

Craig Watkins on Preventing Wrongful Convictions

Interesting.

No one will ever convince me that innocent people have not been execution-homicided by the state.
Including since DNA science became of a high standard.

by ROB Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:25 pm

Bambu,

If innocent folks were never convicted, there would be no reason to lament innocent folks being executed.

Innocence is the issue here. Ensuring that innocent people are not charged and prosecuted for ulterior motives is an excellent start. DA Craig Watkins, the first Black Texan to be elected district attorney, has worked with The Innocence Project to exonerate and free from incarceration more wrongfully charged, wrongfully, prosecuted, wrongfully convicted, and wrongfully sentenced persons than in any other US jurisdiction.

One case I remember from reading about it from afar. A young man was on a business trip with colleagues, more than two hundred forty miles from the scene of the crime, at the exact time that a woman was heinously raped. Despite irrefutable evidence that only The Flash could have covered the distance quickly enough to commit the crime, this young man was locked up for about a quarter of a century. Watkins was the first DA to question the conviction; as a result, the now almost old man was freed.

Watkins petitioned the state legislature to enact legislation to allow current and former district attorneys and assistant district attorneys to themselves be prosecuted for intentional wrongful prosecutions. Watkins uncovered a culture of “victory at any cost”, similar to the Dingo case, wherein prosecutors were encouraged to get convictions whether or not the accused was actually guilty. So far, the legislature has not acted upon his request.

One final fact: Whenever an innocent person is convicted, the guilty person remains free to prey upon future victims. How many violent crimes against persons, including rape and murder, have been committed by people who remained free while others did their time?

by **Ivan** Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:49 pm

How many violent crimes against persons, including rape and murder, have been committed by people who remained free while others did their time?

How many violent crimes against persons, including rape and murder, have been committed by people who remained free while others were executed?

If innocent folks were never convicted, there would be no reason to lament innocent folks being executed.

If innocent folks were never executed, there would be no reason to lament innocent folks being executed.

by oftenwrong Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:25 pm

It's sometimes surprising to discover just who we are sharing the world with.

by ROB Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:16 pm

Ivan wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
How many violent crimes against persons, including rape and murder, have been committed by people who remained free while others did their time?
How many violent crimes against persons, including rape and murder, have been committed by people who remained free while others were executed?

How many violent crimes against persons, including rape and murder, that have been committed by people who remained free while the innocent were executed would have been committed by the guilty had the guilty been executed?

How many violent crimes against persons, including rape and murder, that have been committed by people who remained free while the innocent did their time would have been committed by the guilty had the guilty been executed?

The answer in both cases? Zero, none.

Ivan wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
If innocent folks were never convicted, there would be no reason to lament innocent folks being executed.
If innocent folks were never executed, there would be no reason to lament innocent folks being executed.

If innocent folks were never convicted, there would be no innocent folks sentenced to death, and thus no innocent folks being executed to lament.

You contend that Troy Davis should not be executed. I contend that Troy Davis should not have been convicted. Troy Davis is subsequently freed because he should not have been convicted. A free Troy Davis cannot be executed. By acting upon my contention, the State of Georgia simultaneously acts upon your contention.

It begins with innocence and guilt.

by bambu Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:24 am

Can't dig up executed people, shake them, and say "Sorry about that, here's some starting up again money, best wishes for your future".

Abolishing death chambers is the best and quickest way to make sure no innocent people are ever execution-homicided in future.

by ROB Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:10 pm

bambu wrote:
Can't dig up executed people, shake them, and say "Sorry about that, here's some starting up again money, best wishes for your future".¹

Abolishing death chambers is the best and quickest way to make sure no innocent people are ever execution-homicided in future.²

I don’t want to dig up Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas, shake them, and say to the beasts, “Sorry about that, here's some starting up again money, best wishes for your future.”
Executing Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas is the best and quickest way to ensure that Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas never again execute innocent human souls like James Byrd Jr., an innocent human soul who was targeted by Lawrence Russell Brewer and his two fellow beats, beaten, attached by a logging chain wrapped around his ankles to the rear of a pickup truck, and dragged until his head snapped off, and Aubrey Hawkins, an innocent human soul who was targeted by George Rivas and six fellow beasts, ambushed, shot multiple times from multiple directions, and run over by a motor vehicle.

by **Ivan** Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:04 pm

Rock. You know as well as I do that bambu was not talking about Brewer and Rivas, of whose guilt there is little or no doubt, but of cases like Troy Davis and Linda Carty.

The only way to be 100% sure that innocent people are never executed is to stop all executions. You would do well to read and reflect on the opening post by Jill Segger on a thread on the 'Law And Order' board.

by ROB Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:21 pm

Ivan wrote:
Rock. You know as well as I do that bambu was not talking about Brewer and Rivas, of whose guilt there is little or no doubt, but of cases like Troy Davis and Linda Carty.

The only way to be 100% sure that innocent people are never executed is to stop all executions. You would do well to read and reflect on the opening post by Jill Segger on a thread on the 'Law And Order' board.

Ivan,

Both you and Bambu seem unwilling to apply the death penalty to beasts such as Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas. That is precisely where the deep divide lies between you and Bambu on one side and me on the other side. Without the death penalty in place prior to their heinous acts, neither Brewer nor Rivas could have been executed. Any action that removes the ability of my state to execute such as Brewer and Rivas will be vigorously opposed by me.

Troy Davis could have been spared execution without eliminating the death penalty in Georgia. All that would have been required would have been Craig Watkins as the district attorney in that jurisdiction. Since taking office a few years ago, he has changed his office’s culture and has done all that he can do to correct, as best as possible, the immoral wrongful convictions that occurred during the previous district attorneys’ (plural) terms in office.

Troy Davis never was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt unto a moral certainty; thus, not only should he have not been executed, he should not have been convicted, he should not have been tried, he should not have been charged, and he probably should not have been arrested.

My concern will always be two-fold; eliminate wrongful convictions and incarcerate and/or execute criminals who commit violence, including but not limited to rape and murder, against innocent humans.

I have read Jill’s post. I’ve also read that the beast that exterminated sixty plus innocent human souls will shortly go on trial and just might receive twenty-one years for his heinous, immoral acts.

by bambu Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:00 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
bambu wrote:
Can't dig up executed people, shake them, and say "Sorry about that, here's some starting up again money, best wishes for your future".¹

Abolishing death chambers is the best and quickest way to make sure no innocent people are ever execution-homicided in future.²

Executing Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas is the best and quickest way to ensure that Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas never again execute innocent human souls like James Byrd Jr., an innocent human soul who was targeted by Lawrence Russell Brewer and his two fellow beats, beaten, attached by a logging chain wrapped around his ankles to the rear of a pickup truck, and dragged until his head snapped off, and Aubrey Hawkins, an innocent human soul who was targeted by George Rivas and six fellow beasts, ambushed, shot multiple times from multiple directions, and run over by a motor vehicle.

No it's not.
I can build you an escape-proof prison.

All execution-slaughter is is just more premeditated, cold blooded killing.
It doesn't bring the victims back to life, all it does is make killers of the state and those who support the state's actions.

This case was shown on my tv this morning...on the Ci channel.

http://www.murderpedia.org/male.G/g1/gilbert-lewis.htm

Until American and other people don't find 'closure' in the premeditated, cold-blooded killing of human beings in death chambers by the state, nothing will ever change.

by ROB Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:53 am

bambu wrote:
Can't dig up executed people, shake them, and say "Sorry about that, here's some starting up again money, best wishes for your future".¹

Abolishing death chambers is the best and quickest way to make sure no innocent people are ever execution-homicided in future.²

RockOnBrother wrote:

I don’t want to dig up Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas, shake them, and say to the beasts, “Sorry about that, here's some starting up again money, best wishes for your future.”

Executing Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas is the best and quickest way to ensure that Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas never again execute innocent human souls like James Byrd Jr., an innocent human soul who was targeted by Lawrence Russell Brewer and his two fellow beats, beaten, attached by a logging chain wrapped around his ankles to the rear of a pickup truck, and dragged until his head snapped off, and Aubrey Hawkins, an innocent human soul who was targeted by George Rivas and six fellow beasts, ambushed, shot multiple times from multiple directions, and run over by a motor vehicle.

bambu wrote:
No it's not.

It’s the only foolproof way to ensure that Lawrence Russell Brewer and George Rivas never again execute innocent human souls like James Byrd Jr. and Aubrey Hawkins.

bambu wrote:
I can build you an escape-proof prison.

George Rivas was in a Texas prison. He and six others first escaped and then murdered Officer Aubrey Hawkins. I believe that particular prison was touted as virtually escape proof.

George Rivas is now in an ironclad guaranteed escape proof prison, a casket buried under at least six feet of dirt. George Rivas will escape no more; George Rivas will murder no more.

bambu wrote:
This case was shown on my tv this morning...on the Ci channel.

http://www.murderpedia.org/male.G/g1/gilbert-lewis.htm

Lewis Eugene GILBERT

Date of murders: 1994
Date of arrest: September 3, 1994
Date of birth: October 29, 1971
Victims profile: Roxanne Ruddell, 37 / Ruth Lucille Loader, 79 / William Brewer, 86, and Flossie Mae Brewer, 76
Method of murder: Shooting

Retrieved 14 April 2012 from http://www.murderpedia.org/male.G/g1/gilbert-lewis.htm

Notice that Lewis Eugene Gilbert was twenty-two (22) years of age when he murdered a thirty seven (37) years old woman, a seventy-nine (79) years old woman, an eighty-six (86) years old man, and a seventy-six (76) years old woman, all with the help of sixteen (16) years old Eric Elliott. Couple of tough guys.

[Lewis Eugene Gilbert and his 16 year old accomplice Eric Elliott] forced… [Roxanne Ruddell] to a nearby wooded area… Elliot tied Ruddell’s hands and Gilbert shot her three times in the head and once in the back of the neck.

Retrieved 14 April 2012 from http://www.murderpedia.org/male.G/g1/gilbert-lewis.htm

Took a couple of tough guys to murder a thirty seven years old woman out in the woods.

… the killing was part of a cross-country crime spree that began in Ohio in August 1994, when an elderly Port Washington, Ohio, woman, Ruth Lucille Loader (79), was discovered missing from her home, along with her car… Gilbert confessed to having killed Loader. Her body has not been found…

Retrieved 14 April 2012 from http://www.murderpedia.org/male.G/g1/gilbert-lewis.htm

Took a couple of tough guys to murder a seventy-nine years old woman and stash her body in parts unknown.

Relatives of… [William Brewer (86) and Flossie Mae Brewer (76)] found the couple in a basement wood room. Both had been shot in the head.

Retrieved 14 April 2012 from http://www.murderpedia.org/male.G/g1/gilbert-lewis.htm

Took a couple of tough guys to shoot an eighty-six years old man and a seventy-six years old woman in their heads and stash their body in a basement.

Tough guys like that deserve a last dance with Ol’ Sparky. The State of Oklahoma demonstrated compassion by euthanizing the tough guys.

by Shirina Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:27 pm

I've always been on the fence when it comes to the death penalty, yet whenever I start to feel comfortable with moving to the point of being against it, a story like this comes along:

Two suspects in a triple murder-robbery at a convenience store in rural North Carolina were released from prison — one after serving nine years — just a matter of weeks before they were arrested in connection with the April 1 slayings.

The crime took place as three employees at Hustle Mart in Farmville, N.C. — including the teenage son of the owner and his two cousins — were preparing to close for the night. Three armed men with their faces all or partly covered covered burst in the store to rob it. They also apparently shot the employees despite no obvious signs that the victims had tried to resist. A customer discovered the bodies shortly after the perpetrators left, around 10 p.m.

Then, I can't help but realize that if these animals had been executed, those three innocent victims would still be alive, laughing, dreaming, loving, and living. Not cold corpses on a slab in the morgue.

LINK

by ROB Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:59 pm

More from http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/13/11188105-suspects-in-triple-murder-robbery-were-fresh-from-prison?lite

US NEWS

Suspects in triple-murder robbery were fresh from prison

By Kari Huus, msnbc.com
14 April 2012

The three victims were Mokbel Mohamed Almujanhi, 16 – known at his high school as "Sam" — Nabil Nasser Saeed Al’mogannahi, 26, and Gaber Alawi, 24.

Surveillance video from the scene of the crime and tips from the public led police to arrest four suspects on April 4: Antwan Andre Anthony, 29; Xavier Montel Shamble, 19; Willie Whitehead, 23, and a fourth male whose name was not disclosed because he is a minor.

Each is charged with three counts of murder and a combination of other crimes including first-degree kidnapping, robbery, and possession of firearm by a felon.

Full story: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/13/11188105-suspects-in-triple-murder-robbery-were-fresh-from-prison?lite

by bambu Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:42 am

Shirina wrote:I've always been on the fence when it comes to the death penalty, yet whenever I start to feel comfortable with moving to the point of being against it, a story like this comes along:

Two suspects in a triple murder-robbery at a convenience store in rural North Carolina were released from prison — one after serving nine years — just a matter of weeks before they were arrested in connection with the April 1 slayings.

The crime took place as three employees at Hustle Mart in Farmville, N.C. — including the teenage son of the owner and his two cousins — were preparing to close for the night. Three armed men with their faces all or partly covered covered burst in the store to rob it. They also apparently shot the employees despite no obvious signs that the victims had tried to resist. A customer discovered the bodies shortly after the perpetrators left, around 10 p.m.

Then, I can't help but realize that if these animals had been executed, those three innocent victims would still be alive, laughing, dreaming, loving, and living. Not cold corpses on a slab in the morgue.

LINK

You want the state to execute in death chambers, ...premedited, cold-blooded killing...................people convicted of second-degree assault, and then assaulting guards in prison, lengthening their incarceration?

by Shirina Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:14 am

You want the state to execute in death chambers, ...premedited, cold-blooded killing...................people convicted of second-degree assault, and then assaulting guards in prison, lengthening their incarceration?

I'm saying that whenever I see repeat offenders taking an INNOCENT life, I start to think we've played nice long enough.

by oftenwrong Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:05 am

The measure of any Penal Sanction is presumably it's deterrent effect. (In the case of Execution, "reform" can be disregarded).

In the USA, the total Number of Death Row Inmates as of January 1, 2012 was: 3,189.

This is a historical high-mark. Prior to 1982 the figure was below 1000.

Which suggests that not many people are "deterred" by the existence of a Death Penalty.

by bambu Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:45 pm

Shirina wrote:
You want the state to execute in death chambers, ...premedited, cold-blooded killing...................people convicted of second-degree assault, and then assaulting guards in prison, lengthening their incarceration?

I'm saying that whenever I see repeat offenders taking an INNOCENT life, I start to think we've played nice long enough.

Then, I can't help but realize that if these animals had been executed, those three innocent victims would still be alive, laughing, dreaming, loving, and living. Not cold corpses on a slab in the morgue.

Trouble is, they were in prison 'only' for assault before being released.
Had they killed before, life sentences no parole would've seen the three innocent victims still be alive.

I'm a fan of bulletproof screens protecting storeowners at the cash registers from being murdered by armed robbers/thugs.

by bambu Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:52 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The measure of any Penal Sanction is presumably it's deterrent effect. (In the case of Execution, "reform" can be disregarded).

In the USA, the total Number of Death Row Inmates as of January 1, 2012 was: 3,189.

This is a historical high-mark. Prior to 1982 the figure was below 1000.

Which suggests that not many people are "deterred" by the existence of a Death Penalty.

The Death Penalty is clearly all about revenge...and giving the families of the victims 'closure'.
Many though, having watched the execution-homiciding of a human being in a death chamber have said they didn't find 'closure' at all...and were sickened by the experience.

Yes, unfortunately, the victims don't spring back to life after the execution-homiciding of the convicted person.

by Adele Carlyon Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:57 pm

You can't un-execute someone should it come to light that they didn't actually do it. And if murder is against the law and goes against god, well how can it be justified to put someone to death? Just use the guilty murderers for medical testing instead.

by ROB Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:03 pm

Adele Carlyon wrote:
You can't un-execute someone should it come to light that they didn't actually do it.

If it comes to light that the convicted person didn’t actually do it, then the convicted person was wrongfully convicted. Craig Watkins, the first Black District Attorney in the history of Texas, acting in concert with The Innocence Project, has exonerated somewhere around thirty Texans wrongfully convicted by his crypto-racist, most of whom are Black men that have served up to twenty-five years or so in maximum security facilities for crime they did not commit.

Eliminate wrongful convictions; eliminate wrongful executions and wrongful incarcerations.

Adele Carlyon wrote:
And if murder is against the law and goes against god, well how can it be justified to put someone to death?

“Whosoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (YHVH Elohim, Author, Creator, Owner, and Sovereign of all that is, was, and ever will be, Genesis 9:6).

Adele Carlyon wrote:
Just use the guilty murderers for medical testing instead.

That’s not what God commands.

by oftenwrong Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:34 pm

Where is it recorded that God commanded the invasion of Iraq, of Afghanistan and Somalia? There seem to be a number of ommissions.

by Adele Carlyon Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:22 pm

God can bog off for all I care! Not everyone believes in the big bearded fella in the sky.

by trevorw2539 Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:54 pm

by Adele Carlyon Today at 9:22 pm

God can bog off for all I care! Not everyone believes in the big bearded fella in the sky

The big fella doesn't believe in you either, and he had a shave a millenia ago. Wink

by Sponsored content